Blacks crushed on late model 480i Sony 480i CRT, even at full brightness. Due to digital processing? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 10-19-2012, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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EDIT: So you don't have to read the thread, the answer is no. It's a an issue with PS3 and old games.


I have the KV13FS100, and the darkest grays are not showing even when I crank the brightness to the point where everything is washed out. Do you guys think there is a setting in the service menu to eliminate some of the digital video processing, kind of like the HDPT on the HD sets? Or is that even the issue? Could this just be a bad tube since it's one of sony's cheaper sets?

The color is really good though, once I killed red push via the service menu, the contrast in the mid range is really good. So it disappoints me that the deep grays seem to be nonexistent on this set somehow.

The other possible problem could be that I'm using the YPbPr out on my PS3. I read that component out on PS3 is not very good.

You guys can see exactly what I'm talking about if you have Final Fantasy 12. Go to the Screen Position option in Config. You'll see the grayscale bar. To the left of the red line there should be a couple more levels of black, but for me that whole section is completely black.
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post #2 of 16 Old 10-19-2012, 08:54 PM
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One of the signs of a worn out CRT is that even at max brightness it is too dark. A friend of mine had an old Sanyo 27" CRT that was heavily used for gaming for many years and it saw some very hard use (tons of hours). Toward the end of it's life we noticed that even at full brightness it was too dark. Not long after the tube failed on it. I was amazed the set lasted as long as it did as it was on every day for probably 8-10 hours a day or more. Saw us through the SNES and N64 era (massive amounts of Goldeneye 64) and on into the Gamecube and Wii era. I'd have loved to have seen the hour counter on that set in the service menu if it had one.
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post #3 of 16 Old 10-19-2012, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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That's definitely not the problem. This TV is not even 10 years old yet, and it is INCREDIBLY bright... like blinding. You have to turn the contrast way down so whites don't look like a burning sun. The problem is on the bottom end, with deep blacks/grays. The top 90% of the color bars looks about right, with the last few being a too bright and blending together somewhat.

Some piece of hardware is clipping (THERE'S the word I'm looking floor) deep blacks in the signal, not sure where in the chain it's happening.
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post #4 of 16 Old 10-20-2012, 05:17 AM
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Might this be relevant?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1327511/dark-picture/
Don't forget flybacks carry very high voltage.


Like with some Sony LCDs, with Sony CRTs there is an automatic contrast enhancement feature which crushes blacks. With the XBR960 it is turned off (value 0) by default but it's possible your model has it tuned on. If it is turned on it can cause the kind of problem you're experiencing. I can't remember what the value was called but I'll edit this post later if I can figure it out.
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post #5 of 16 Old 10-20-2012, 08:38 AM
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Could try adjusting what is often called the Screen knob on the high voltage transformer, typically the other knob next to Focus. Pretty sensitive on the TVs I've adjusted, although they were not Sonys.

Also might play with the color intensity.

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post #6 of 16 Old 10-20-2012, 12:38 PM
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Isn't there a setting for colour format on the PS3? Is this the only source that you have this issue with?
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post #7 of 16 Old 10-20-2012, 08:26 PM
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Go into service menu vp section,put it on a blank channel showing black,there is a setting between 40 and 63 and it's the one that will make the Black go darker or lighter -you want the lighter one.write down each number and setting before and then try each one.i think it's close to 50.If its not that number its in a different section.
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post #8 of 16 Old 10-25-2012, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Vic, my TV has VP1 and VP2 sections, could you take a look at this picture of the service manual and see if you can tell from the names/descriptions the one you are talking about?

"Black stretch" changes brightness very slightly but didn't bring out the detail I was looking for.

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post #9 of 16 Old 10-25-2012, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

Might this be relevant?
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1327511/dark-picture/
Don't forget flybacks carry very high voltage.


Like with some Sony LCDs, with Sony CRTs there is an automatic contrast enhancement feature which crushes blacks. With the XBR960 it is turned off (value 0) by default but it's possible your model has it tuned on. If it is turned on it can cause the kind of problem you're experiencing. I can't remember what the value was called but I'll edit this post later if I can figure it out.

Ok in the service menu it is the called the gamma slope (GAMS). It brightens brighter areas and darkens darker areas which can crush blacks. The GAMM value, which is set independently for each input and viewing mode type (Standard, Vivid etc), references a group of settings of which GAMS is one. The GAMS value goes from 0 to 15. 15 will crush blacks.

There are other settings that affect black levels like APED, DCTR, *CUT and *DRV so see the Sony service codes thread
http://www.avsforum.com/t/531494/the-sony-service-codes-articles-comments-discoveries/

Edit Sorry with the XBR960 it is only turned off by default on Movie mode, some of the time, and on Pro mode.
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post #10 of 16 Old 10-25-2012, 11:05 PM
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On my even older V series, there's a setting labeled "Y-DC" which controls the black level retention (or lack thereof: aka black level expansion.)

There was no chance of "de-crushing" near blacks if it was in the "expansion" mode.
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post #11 of 16 Old 10-26-2012, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

On my even older V series, there's a setting labeled "Y-DC" ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by homerging View Post

There are other settings that affect black levels like APED, DCTR...

Ok, at the end of VP2 there are a couple settings in VP2 with "DC" and they do control brightness, however they do not bring out the bottom end either.

I'm starting to wonder if this clipping is happening somewhere in the PS3.
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post #12 of 16 Old 10-27-2012, 02:42 PM
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That's why I asked if your PS3 was the only source that you see this problem in. You need to try other sources if you are going to troubleshoot. Which input are you using with the PS3? Try component if you are using HDMI, or vice versa if you are using component now. Try a 360, a PS2, a Wii, anything over the same or other inputs. The PS3 should have a setting for colour format, I don't remember exactly where it is, but its purpose was to expand colour for deep colour displays and to limit it for those that did not have this feature, similar to the 360's colour format. If you are seeing a problem now I would expect that changing this colour setting should fix it.
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post #13 of 16 Old 10-28-2012, 11:41 PM
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Try setting your PS3 output to "video" range (16-235.) I don't recall ever having an issue with the component cables (other than the PS3 wouldn't pass blacker-than-black or whiter-than-white.)

I'm not a big gamer though ... your issue might be something specific to the game(s).
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post #14 of 16 Old 10-29-2012, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Try setting your PS3 output to "video" range (16-235.) I don't recall ever having an issue with the component cables (other than the PS3 wouldn't pass blacker-than-black or whiter-than-white.)

I'm playing over component, the option you're talking about is only for HDMI.

The blacker than black thing may be my issue. On the gray-step bar (increases in steps of from black to white) in the FF12 menu, there is a red line dividing part of the black section. To the left of the line I can't see any difference with this TV, but with my HD CRT monitor hooked up with HDMI>HDfury, I can see a few more steps. So that red line may be the line below which the game renders "blacker than black".

I wonder if this is an issue on the PS2 as well. This game was designed for PS2 which has component as it's best possible output.
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post #15 of 16 Old 10-29-2012, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CRTFTW View Post

I'm playing over component, the option you're talking about is only for HDMI

Out of ideas then. I've usually had the opposite problem (washed out blacks) on the handful of games I do have. But then again, I never run them at <720p either.

I'd suggest trying the composite cable, but I suspect the result would be the same ....
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post #16 of 16 Old 10-31-2012, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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So here's the image I'm talking about, I can't see anything to left of the red line when playing the game on my PS3 through component. Is it possible the red line signifies blacker than black?

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/644/gsdx20121030234020.png

Here's the thing, I've displayed this image directly through my PC over component AND my PS3's photo viewer over component, and I can see the full range of contrast in both instances. So now I know that there is some issue with the PS3 playing PS2 games, whether it be some form of additional image processing by the PS3 or in some DAC process within the emotion engine itself (emotion engine is the physical PS2 hardware, included inside early PS3's for backwards compatibility).

Now I know that my trinitron is calibrated well though, other games look great on it.

ff12calibration.png 127k .png file
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