AVS Forum

AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/)
-   Direct View (single tube) CRT Displays (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direct-view-single-tube-crt-displays/)
-   -   Video blackout problem - Loewe Aconda 38" CRT ACO9383 (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direct-view-single-tube-crt-displays/1514293-video-blackout-problem-loewe-aconda-38-crt-aco9383.html)

cmcm 01-26-2014 03:13 PM

I'm using this display for retro gaming and I am using all of the different outputs of the TV: coax (NES/SMS/Genesis), composite (SNES/PS1), s-video (N64), component (PS2), and VGA (Dreamcast). I am having a problem where the video will go black for a split second or longer, then come back. Symptoms below:
  • The video will black out for anywhere between ~10ms up to 2 seconds
  • It is intermittent as to how often, but averages once every 15-20 seconds
  • So far it has only happened when using coax, composite, and s-video inputs
  • It does NOT happen when using YPbPr (component) inputs or VGA input
  • It does not matter which input I use - front panel, back panel Video 1/2/3, and coax all exhibit this problem
  • Happens primarily when outputting 240p or similar resolution - tested on PS2 game Ico which outputs 240p over composite, whereas Soul Calibur II outputs 480i
  • On-screen display (TV menus) stay on and do not go black
  • Audio is not affected

Any suggestions are desperately needed. Thank you.

EscapeVelocity 01-27-2014 10:58 AM

Sounds like a bad cap problem on the Composite, S-Video, Coax board. I would check that board for bad bulging leaking capacitors. The board is probably located at the rear inputs, the coax, composite and S-Video ports being physically attached to it, with the front inputs connected to it by wire. It could be that there are 2 separate boards for the Component and VGA inputs and the Composite/SVideo/Coax or it could be just two separate paths on the same board.

Ratman 01-27-2014 12:31 PM

Or maybe the TV just doesn't like converting a 240p signal to the native display of 540p/1080i.
Component and VGA may "accept" and handle that better than composite, SVideo and RF which are typically 480i/60Hz only.

Floydage 01-27-2014 04:39 PM

^Indeed. And what does "primarily" mean and what is a "similar resolution?"

LiquidSnake 01-27-2014 05:31 PM

It is far more likely something going sour with the television's parts than an inability of the equipment to display 240p. Indeed, what many gamers now term "240p" was for several years the standard for broadcasting video games. It requires very little bandwidth or hardware to work with. And from a practical standpoint we are assuming the TV worked properly before.

Many CRT HDTV televisions have the boards and chips for HD type signals separate, and electronics around this kind of age failing for bad capacitors is very common, EscapeVelocity's suggestion is a good one. Open it up and look for any possible short or bulged, exploded capacitors.

Floydage 01-27-2014 05:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post

And from a practical standpoint we are assuming the TV worked properly before.

Come to think of it that would be a darn good question - and hence the variety of answers thus far. biggrin.gif

LiquidSnake 01-27-2014 10:38 PM

Yes, only the OP knows that for sure. Still, "240p" is not some strange and exotic video mode. It is simply the practice of skipping even lines and drawing a frame with the same odd ones, this kind of broadcast info can easily live within the same signal that is normally entirely interlaced because it carries as much information and not more. TVs with no solid state circuits could do them and the oldest 8-bit games and computers used it all the time because it saved memory, which was at a premium back then.

So whether it worked originally for the OP and recently stopped functioning or if he got it second-hand and it always had this problem, it actually should be able to do this mode without breaking a sweat. I'm certain it is a fault in the TV, likely fixable.

cmcm 01-28-2014 04:51 PM

Thanks for all the responses!

I say "primarily" and "similar resolutions" because I know the older consoles' games can throw weird resolutions to the display and I don't have concrete data as to what resolution these games are running at; thus, my reasoning for using Ico as a test because during my research I was able to find that game is confirmed to run at that resolution.

I do not honestly know if the TV displayed 240p without issues before. I picked up the display secondhand off Craigslist awhile back and finally have begun to set up my retro game area with it.

I had thought that more than likely it was a bad cap or a cold solder, but I didn't want to take this huge thing off the stand by myself without asking those more knowledgeable than myself first. Honestly I was hoping it was an option byte somewhere in the service menu but that's just cause I'm lazy. tongue.gif

I'll pop the back off this thing and check for bad caps as suggested!

Floydage 01-28-2014 05:40 PM

OK. BTW does it work OK with 480i on those problem inputs?

We have to keep in mind that a Loewe is a different animal being a German made TV.

Ratman 01-29-2014 06:02 AM

If it works okay on all of those inputs at 480i, I wouldn't go replacing caps hoping to resolve a 240p input resolution problem. I'm not saying other suggestions are incorrect. Just suggesting to test and confirm before doing anything hasty. There's always the possibility that you could make the TV FUBAR.

OTOH... it's your TV, do what you think best. wink.gif
Keep us informed.

Here's my guess (and I certainly could be wrong):
The TV is having issues accepting/converting a 240p input signal on a 480i only input and trying to re-deinterlace the input signal for a 540p native display.

Floydage 01-29-2014 09:16 AM

Yeah I would find out if it can accept it or not and/or how to make it accept it first. When I had interest in one of these beasts and read up on some AVS posts I recall some of the posts were about input signal issues/compatibility.

Ratman 01-29-2014 09:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydage View Post

Yeah I would find out if it can accept it or not and/or how to make it accept it first.
Well... it apparently does accept that input resolution. The problem is that it does not consistently display that input resolution. biggrin.gif

Is the problem the TV due to bad caps or just quirk with the antique gaming systems on a "newer" TV?

IMHO, it's similar to having a car that runs like crap and getting a valve job only to find out that you had a bad tank of gas. I'd try a new tank of gas before assuming I needed a valve job based on someone's recommendation. tongue.gif

Floydage 01-29-2014 11:06 AM

Indeed, or at least it's trying to accept it. Like a capture problem, the 'possible' periodicity of "black out" may be a clue (um I doubt he can measure 10 msec unless using a 'scope).

Oh valve jobs. I did one once only to have the improved compression blow out the rings on the old engine several months later. frown.gif

LiquidSnake 01-29-2014 11:37 AM

I seriously doubt that a television from 2001 would be made to be inherently incompatible with video games made in the same year. This is an actual problem and one that should not be, even if the set were brand new. And it isn't like he is losing anything taking the back of the TV off to inspect for problems.

Ratman 01-29-2014 12:20 PM

Whatever works.
Keep everyone updated with your findings.

Perhaps when you pop the back off you will find bulging/leaking caps and you can replace them easily.

Just playing the devil's advocate and hope your electronic detective skills are adequate as well as your desoldering/resoldering finesse.

cmcm 01-29-2014 06:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydage View Post

OK. BTW does it work OK with 480i on those problem inputs?

We have to keep in mind that a Loewe is a different animal being a German made TV.

Yes it does work OK in 480i.

I haven't had a chance to take it off the stand and pop it open yet.

Ratman 01-30-2014 06:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmcm View Post

Yes it does work OK in 480i.
Well, that pretty much indicates that (probably) the caps are still fine.

cmcm 02-09-2014 11:02 PM

I finally got some time (and help) getting the screen off the stand and I took a look at all the components. I did not see any caps busted, exploded, or leaking, nor did I see any messed up traces or solder joints. That isn't to say there isn't a cold solder joint I'm unaware of, but I did not have the time to take a soldering iron to all the joints yet. That is all assuming that this is a problem that can be caused by a cold solder joint to begin with, which I have no idea if it is.

Youtube video showing problem - N64 connected via S-Video playing Zelda Majora's Mask: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYLJNeAdgW0
Imgur albums showing shots of circuit boards (both flash off and on): https://imgur.com/a/4YFqF

Is there anything else I can test?
Is there any documentation available that specifies if this display supports 240p?
Is there a manual available?
Does anyone know if there is a composite/s-video > VGA (480p) display converter that has very low/no latency (this would be a workaround for the problem)?
Failing all else, is it worth paying a knowledgeable repairman/repair company to try and fix it?

Floydage 02-10-2014 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmcm View Post

Is there a manual available?

Does anyone know if there is a composite/s-video > VGA (480p) display converter that has very low/no latency (this would be a workaround for the problem)?

I don't know if you meant user or service manual but I'm usually able to find free user manuals searching 'model # + manual' but service manuals usually cost a fee.

I've seen those converters advertised but never looked into them. Probably the newer stuff more for converting old games for flat panels though, like HDMI/1080p.

Ratman 02-10-2014 12:19 PM

User manual.... couldn't find one.
Service manual... found one for $5.00
I found no documentation of any TV/CRT that "supports" 240p input (computer "monitors" are a different issue).

S-video to VGA converter here:
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?seq=1&format=2&p_id=4722&CAWELAID=1329449490&catargetid=320013720000010976&cadevice=c&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CPij7dahwrwCFUcaOgodGHwA1Q

You can probably find someone to repair and/or fix the TV. The issue is........ what is there to repair or fix?

It works at 480i.
It has issues at 240p.
The TV was not designed to accept a 240p signal on an input (composite/s-video) that is 480i only.

Floydage 02-10-2014 01:14 PM

I forgot to add to cmcm that I assume you dug around in ALL the user menus (ex: my Panny CRT has a Game mode). And if you haven't already done so you should search the appropriate Loewe threads using keywords pertaining to this subject (ex: old games) so that you can determine if anyone was able to do this with this model TV (or similar model different size, etc.). German TV's, who knows?...

OT: Have any of you guys seen anything on service menu access of an RCA HD27F754T (27" 4:3 CRT HDTV w/ ATSC&cable tuner) or 'close enough' model? Chassis is ATC260. I've had no luck with my searches other than sites trying to sell me a service manual (and rare at that). Stupid lower right corner bending down is driving me nuts and geometry using its ATSC tuner is a little off too.

Hey Ratman, what was the website you saw with a service manual for a mere $5?

Ratman 02-10-2014 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydage View Post

Hey Ratman, what was the website you saw with a service manual for a mere $5?

Hey Floydage, what browser do you use?
http://www.loewe.owner-manuals.com/ACO9383-service-manual-LOEWE.html


As for this OT question:
Quote:
OT: Have any of you guys seen anything on service menu access of an RCA HD27F754T (27" 4:3 CRT HDTV w/ ATSC&cable tuner) or 'close enough' model? Chassis is ATC260. I've had no luck with my searches other than sites trying to sell me a service manual (and rare at that). Stupid lower right corner bending down is driving me nuts and geometry using its ATSC tuner is a little off too.
Start a new thread. smile.gif

Floydage 02-11-2014 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Hey Floydage, what browser do you use?
http://www.loewe.owner-manuals.com/ACO9383-service-manual-LOEWE.html


As for this OT question:

Start a new thread. smile.gif

Firefox. And the good ol' turtle IE but only for banking, etc. (I feel more secure but slow).
Shucks, no results, tried the chassis # too. I noticed RCA and Thompson not listed. Bookmarked though for future reference as those are much better prices than I've seen elsewhere. Thanks!

I posted my OT? some time ago but no response. Figured you and 'Snake know more than most here and while I had you two hostage... biggrin.gif

Ratman 02-11-2014 12:53 PM

Sorry... meant "search engine" not browser... anyway, worth a try.

http://www.fixya.com/support/t11774812-service_manual_access_description

Floydage 02-11-2014 02:27 PM

Well thanks for trying. I'm still an old Yahoo user (which is why I don't like using the term "google" like saying "coke" or "kleenex").

Hey you found one of my ancient service manual inquiries, oddly enough from almost exactly two years ago. Man how time flies.

Ratman 02-11-2014 03:10 PM

Did the info in the link I provided allow you to gain access to the service menus? If not... oh well.
I don't know about your other threads in regard to your make/model TV. I'm sure if you used a different search engine, you may find what you are seeking.

As using "Yahoo".... no different than using the term "Tampax". tongue.gif

Floydage 02-12-2014 12:19 PM

No but thanks for trying. That fixya link (which was my inquiry post from two years ago) showed some solutions that were six years older than my inquiry post; I take it fixya automatically tries to find answers in its database. Other than that no one replied with a solution. I also posted on AVS.

I tried Google at the time too. From my experience I've never gotten any result from one that I didn't see in the other. Not that I use both a lot, just when I don't find what I'm searching for.

I don't know why Google got the search name 'goodwill,' not like they were the first search engine. Good marketing, catchy name, and money I suppose. I usually just say "'net search."

It's not that I have any preference, just got used to Yahoo from earlier years (ISP browser packaging). I think the biggest thing was their superior Yahoo Finance (stock trader) and message boards within Finance.

Ratman 02-12-2014 01:07 PM

Yeah. If I still used the stuff from the stone age, it would be Netscape and AltaVista.

Floydage 02-12-2014 01:46 PM

OK so what's so much better with Google than Yahoo?

Ratman 02-12-2014 02:13 PM

Prodigy.rolleyes.gif


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:08 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.