Computer Input for Sony HDTV CRTs - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Correct. 540p timings should be reported as 1080i. And 480p timings should be reported as 480p.

The TV probably can't tell the difference between 540p and 1080i BTW. AFAIK, it basically sees both as 1080lines@~30Hz interlaced. And it seems to offset the 540-line scans on 540p in an alternating fashion, the same way it interlaces 1080i. The offset is very slight though, and only gives the 540p picture a minor jitter which most people barely notice. On the computer side, 540p appears to work just like a 540-line progressive mode for all intensive purposes.

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post #92 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 01:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by redstone
thanks for the reply! it happens when i am looking at the desktop as well. when you move open windows back and forth on the screen, it looks pretty funny. it also seems to be only the computer and no other sources. and yes, i did move my speakers away from the tv:) heh.
If you're using a 60Hz refresh rate, then your computer and TV may be slightly out of phase. This would cause a subtle rippling effect running down the screen. Using a vertical refresh of 59.947Hz seemed to eliminate that on my TV. It could result in other issues though, which I don't know about. So use at your own risk. I think most HD/NTSC is also 59.947Hz though, and the TV probably is designed more for that than 60Hz.

If using a different vertical refresh doesn't have any effect, then it could be some other issues in the computer or video card. I noticed some interference on the signal of the 9700Pro, for example, which had a power connection onto the video card. The 9000Pro I'm using now, with no power connection, seems to have a slightly cleaner signal.

Or it could be something completely different.

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post #93 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
If you're using a 60Hz refresh rate, then your computer and TV may be slightly out of phase. This would cause a subtle rippling effect running down the screen. Using a vertical sync of 59.947Hz seemed to eliminate that on my TV. It could result in other issues though, which I don't know about. So use at your own risk. I think most HD/NTSC is also 59.947Hz though, and the TV probably is designed more for that than 60Hz.

If using a different vertical sync doesn't have any effect, then it could be soem other issues in the computer or video card. I noticed some interference on the signal of the 9700Pro, for example, which had a power connection onto the video card. The 9000Pro I'm using now, with no power connection, seems to have a slightly cleaner signal.

Or it could be something completely different.
well, i gave it a shot but it didn't seem to help. thanks for your help though. my video card does not have a power supply connection so don't think that is it. weird stuff. anyway, thanks again.
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post #94 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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The next step might be the "swapping game" to try to isolate where the problem is.

E.G. Try a different DVI cable, perhaps with ferrite cores. Try plugging into another DVI monitor to see if the problem occurs exclusively when connected to the TV. If the problem persists with another monitor and cable, then try another video card. Makes sure all connections are solid.

If it disappears with another monitor then the TV could be suspect. One person with another TV corrected some waviness issues by unplugging his TV overnight. Plugging into other outlets or using a different powerstrip (the electrical kind) might be worth a try. Etc....

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post #95 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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How do your DVDs look at 720x480p BTW, redstone? Aside from the waviness, do you see much difference in PQ between DVI and a component player?

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post #96 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 04:08 PM
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well, i would say it looks a little better but not that much more. the superbit dvds look really cool on it. why i really want to run it on the sony is due to the "tivo" stuff. i really like the fact that i have a device that can record television and also play back dvds. are you getting at the fact that i should just pony up and buy a progressive scan dvd player? if so, i was thinking the same thing. i am going to try your suggested troubleshooting steps tonight and i will fill you in with what i find........ if you would like for your knowledge base. thanks again.
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post #97 of 149 Old 08-10-2003, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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By all means... fill away.
Quote:
are you getting at the fact that i should just pony up and buy a progressive scan dvd player?
Nope. I don't have a DVD player on my computer at the moment, so I was just interested in your impressions of the DVDs via DVI. I'd be more interested if you were scaling them to 1080i though. :)

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post #98 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 03:39 PM
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Tweeter FINALLY got my 32HS510 in and I picked it up on Friday. All I can say is "WOW!" The picture is absolutely amazing. DVDs at 1080i over DVI (yes it is possible, at least with a Radeon) look absolutely incredible. 720p from a computer produces a desktop that you can actually view. Very little flicker, if I weren't worred about burn in I'd consider using it for a desktop monitor.

Many thanks to ADU, Karnis, and everyone else here.

I still need to hit the set with Avia. I set the display mode to Pro out of the box to prevent burn-in from the Vivid mode, which looks like absolute crap. Hopefully after the few tweaks that the set looks like it needs it will amaze me even more. This was $1099 well spent.
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post #99 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
I was just interested in your impressions of the DVDs via DVI. I'd be more interested if you were scaling them to 1080i though. :)
Nothing short of amazing. I have tried DVDs at 1080i and 720p over DVI. They both look great. I haven't decided which I like better yet. :-) I am completly in love with this set, it was worth the 1 month wait for Tweeter to get its act together. FYI:

pIII 933Mhz HTPC w/ Radeon 7500 hooked up to a 32HS510.
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post #100 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtymatt
Nothing short of amazing. I have tried DVDs at 1080i and 720p over DVI. They both look great. I haven't decided which I like better yet. :-) I am completly in love with this set, it was worth the 1 month wait for Tweeter to get its act together. FYI:

pIII 933Mhz HTPC w/ Radeon 7500 hooked up to a 32HS510.
sweet! dirty matt, what was the secret? i can get 540 but not 1080i. also, did that jump menu thing work for you? i can't seem to get it to work.

adu, i still have the wavy picture. i tried plugging the tele into a nice power filter, unplugging it over night, and connected up through craptastic s-video. still have the wavy picture. do you get this dirty matt? just curious since we have the same tele and same video card. and yes, the sony preset of vivid looks like poo:)
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post #101 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by redstone
sweet! dirty matt, what was the secret? i can get 540 but not 1080i. also, did that jump menu thing work for you? i can't seem to get it to work.
If you paste this mode into powerstrip it should work:

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1920x1080i=1920,180,144,244,1080,24,2,20,83970,280


Generic timing details for 1920x1080:
HFP=180 HSW=144 HBP=244 kHz=34 VFP=24 VSW=2 VBP=20 Hz=30
interlace +hsync +vsync

I am still trying to work out a stable 1440x1080i mode since I have jump disabled. i can get the TV to display 1440x1080i but the image is very bouncy (not the interlace flicker, this is bouncy, I think the timing somewhere isn't quite correct.

As for the JUMP disable, make sure you press MUTE then ENTER on your remote after setting it to save the setting to memory. If you don't save it the setting won't hold through a power cycle.

I'll try to keep everyone up to date on how my work goes, keep in mind I've only had the tv since Friday.

Another thing to keep in mind for watching DVDs, 960x720 looks great in 4x3 mode. I noticed some combing with Futurama, but I don't know if that's the disc or the setup. Harry Potter looked wonderful. Rich colors, smooth pans, everything it never was on my SDTV.

Oops, forgot to add, the picture is a bit wavy at 1080i w/ JUMP disabled. I don't remember it being this way with JUMP enabled, I will have to research more. 720p is rock solid though. The only time I see any flickering is for very thin (1pixel I think) horizontal lines.
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post #102 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 06:00 PM
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hey dirtymatt, thanks for the timings. i am gonna give it a shot tonight. time to be a pest again..... what did you use for the rock solid 720p? i mean, life would be great if i could get 720 with the jump off. high def video games would rock! woo hoo!

side note on the wavy display.

i just read this thread about the 34xbr800 and it totally matches my issue.
kv-34xbr800 service mode

after i read it, i went out and looked at a letterbox hd signal. sure enough, the upper right corner is dipping. man, why did i not see this before. also, i turned on tech tv and caught their tech ticker. wouldn't you know it, big ole bulge in the middle. the things that slip by when you are not obsessing over your new purchase:) looks like i am about to enter into tweaker hell. so is this the fifth or sixth ring of hell?? heh. well, off to learn more about the service menu and see if i should just call a tech out.

thanks again you all.
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post #103 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by redstone
hey dirtymatt, thanks for the timings. i am gonna give it a shot tonight. time to be a pest again..... what did you use for the rock solid 720p?
I was planning to tweak these a bit more before posting, but I know how frustrating it can be waiting. So here is my mini-guide to 720p on a Sony 32HS510 with a Radeon 7500 running Catalyst 3.4 using DVI (In other words, your results may vary). The 16x9 modes worked great with no tweaking at all. The 4x3 modes (specifically the No-Overscan mode) need a little tweaking still, but should be quite useable. One thing to note for all of these modes, the horizontal refresh is exactly 45kHz and the vertical is exactly 60Hz.

1280x720p (720p 16x9 Overscan)

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1280x720=1280,72,40,256,720,5,5,20,74160,3094

Generic timing details for 1280x720:
HFP=72 HSW=40 HBP=256 kHz=45 VFP=5 VSW=5 VBP=20 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1280x720" 74.160 1280 1352 1392 1648 720 725 730 750 -hsync -vsync


1152x648 (720p 16x9 No-Overscan)

PowerStrip timing parameters:
1152x648=1152,144,40,312,648,41,5,56,74160,3094

Generic timing details for 1152x648:
HFP=144 HSW=40 HBP=312 kHz=45 VFP=41 VSW=5 VBP=56 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"1152x648" 74.160 1152 1296 1336 1648 648 689 694 750 -hsync -vsync


960x720 (720p 4x3 Overscan)

PowerStrip timing parameters:
960x720=960,48,96,144,720,1,7,22,56160,3094

Generic timing details for 960x720:
HFP=48 HSW=96 HBP=144 kHz=45 VFP=1 VSW=7 VBP=22 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"960x720" 56.160 960 1008 1104 1248 720 721 728 750 -hsync -vsync

864x648 (720p 4x3 No-Overscan)

PowerStrip timing parameters:
864x648=864,280,88,0,648,41,9,52,55440,3094

Generic timing details for 864x648:
HFP=280 HSW=88 HBP=0 kHz=45 VFP=41 VSW=9 VBP=52 Hz=60

Linux modeline parameters:
"864x648" 55.440 864 1144 1232 1232 648 689 698 750 -hsync -vsync
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post #104 of 149 Old 08-11-2003, 06:49 PM
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nice. thanx soooo much. i will give them a shot. as far as set-up, we have the same exact thing. can't wait to give it a try.
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post #105 of 149 Old 08-12-2003, 12:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Awesome info, dirtymatt. Yer makin me wanna try a 7500 too. :)

redstone, I recall the ticker-tape discussion, and think I see what you mean now by "wavy". My TV may have a similar issue as well, and it's not the phasing issue I mentioned before. Sometimes I can see distortion when things pan across the screen. If you've got symmetrical distortion or bends on both side of the screen there might be a way to improve that with some of the service menu geometry adjustments. There may be more current info floatin round somewhere in a more recent thread, but this Sony manual "lite" illustrates a few adjustments. If the distortion is assymetrical then that could be more difficult to fix. If your TV is still under warranty you might wanna have a Sony tech look at it. Most CRTs have a few imperfections here and there though. Ironing them all out may be difficult. If it's a distraction to viewing though....

I don't know if you've tried any of the sizing or positioning controls to correct overscan in the service menu, but on my TV, the basic HSIZ and VSIZ items did result in more distortion around the edges of the screen than the others. YMMV.

I presume that this distortion occurs on all video inputs, not just DVI, BTW, is that right?

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post #106 of 149 Old 08-12-2003, 05:41 PM
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yeah, i see it no matter the input...... just think i notice it the most over DVI. i am gonna do an upgrade and reformat this weekend just to get the computer in tip-top shape. and since it is under warranty, going to call for a sony tech asap. that most definitely is the logical thing to do..... just got to remember to hide the computer over DVI before he/she gets here. who knows if they will try to pull some "that voids your warranty" stuff.

can't wait to reformat to check those timings. it's gonna be super sweet!
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post #107 of 149 Old 08-13-2003, 06:10 AM
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This may be slightly off topic but how do you enter the service mode on KV-32HS510?

Thanks!

/DarkSynbois
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post #108 of 149 Old 08-13-2003, 06:29 AM
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Power Off
Display
5
Volume up
Power On

Usual warning applies don't change anything without writing down the previous value.
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post #109 of 149 Old 08-15-2003, 06:53 AM
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dirtymatt,

Thanks for the heads up about your info in this thread.

Question for you concerning your problems with 4:3 1080i - have you tried using 1328x1000i or maybe 1336x1000i instead of 1440x1080i ?

This would be the 4:3 equivalent resolution to the 1776x1000i resolution that a lot of folks with 16:9 displays use (something to do with picture stability and overscan).
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post #110 of 149 Old 08-15-2003, 07:07 AM
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galomyr,

I haven't played around with the 1080i timings too much yet. I did 720p first because it's a whole lot easier. Tricking PowerStrip into enabling interlaced output over DVI is not easy. Hopefully I'll have more time to play around after this weekend.
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post #111 of 149 Old 08-18-2003, 07:57 AM
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dirtymatt, have you had any time to fiddle with the 1328x1000i, or any other thing with your setup? I'm getting more eager by the day. :D

But I really need to wait until I can get the set for a really cheaper price... :(
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post #112 of 149 Old 08-18-2003, 02:15 PM
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galomyr,

No, things have been very busy for me lately. I am moving in a few months and have 7 years woth of crap to sort through and throw out. Hopefully I will have time before the end of this week.

BTW, what kind of prices are you seeing for the 32HS510? I managed to pick mine up for $1099 + 6% PA Sales tax. Unfortunately I believe that sale is over.
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post #113 of 149 Old 08-18-2003, 07:59 PM
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I've been playing w/ the 1080i timings. I can get a stable image, but I can't get it properly centered on the screen. It seems that w/ DVI the horizontal position controls in PowerStrip do nothing at all. Vertical works fine, but horizontal has no effect. I can get an image displayed, but it's massively cropped on the right side, while on the left it's just barely cropped.

Does anyone know if there are any input specific overscan controls in the Service Menu? I really don't want to screw with all 1080i inputs, just DVI.
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post #114 of 149 Old 08-19-2003, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think most of the MID.... sizing and positioning controls are signal (and aspect ratio) dependent. So if you make adjustments for 1080i on the DVI input, it may effect 1080i component inputs as well. I haven't been able to fully confirm this though.

I noticed the lack of horizontal control in PS as well. So I just bit the bullet and made the adjustments in the service menu, since I don't have any other HD to watch in my area anyway. More about this in my overscan posts on Page #1. On the 34XBR800 the MID3/VDHP seems to scroll the video image horizontally, so that's the main one I used to address this issue. There may be a similar feature on the 4:3 Sonys. Perhaps Below 30 can comment on this.

I think this shifting issue could be related to the one that Greg Rogers describes in Post #340 here BTW with regard to the 1080i on DVI players.

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post #115 of 149 Old 08-19-2003, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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There's another alternative to Powerstrip that I'm sorta interested in trying as well called Rage3DTweak BTW.

Anyone played with this?

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post #116 of 149 Old 08-22-2003, 01:02 PM
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Thoght I would ask here b/c I can't seem to get a straight answer from the HTPC forum and maybe ADU can address this. What I am trying to do is get clarifiaction that in fact ffdshow and TT are working correctly on my 40" XBR 800. This is what I'm doing, desktop res of 864x648 and resize via ffdshow to 1440x960. I launch TT which uses ffdshow to upscale to 1440x960 and according to the OSD from ffdshow w/ in TT it indicates that indeed the "Outputsize" is 1440x960. I just can't tell much of a diff so therefore I do not think it is working correctly. If anyone can share some insight on this I would appreciate it. Not to bash the HTPC guys, but they are more familiar w/ the RPTV and projectors.


TIA
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post #117 of 149 Old 08-23-2003, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Hmmm.... I'm not fully up to speed on the DVD apps like TT and ffdshow, but if 864x648 is a 720p timing, and 1440x960 is a 1080i timing, then you should be able to see the signal type in the TV's service menu change from 720p to 1080i. (Remember to switch to another category in the SM because the signal type isn't shown on the opening screen.)

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post #118 of 149 Old 08-23-2003, 01:36 PM
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If you desktop rez is 864 X 648, then your video card is downscaling the overlay from Theatertek to your desktop rez. What rez are you trying to output to the monitor?
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post #119 of 149 Old 08-24-2003, 07:08 AM
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In previous post my desktop size on my TV is 864xx648 and when I launch TT, ffdshow upscales or changes my res on my TV to 1440x960, so it says on the OSD, but to be honest I really can't tell that big of a diff. I will take ADU's advice and put the TV into SM and see if the timings are changing.


TIA
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post #120 of 149 Old 08-24-2003, 07:08 AM
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In previous post my desktop size on my TV is 864xx648 and when I launch TT, ffdshow upscales or changes my res on my TV to 1440x960, so it says on the OSD, but to be honest I really can't tell that big of a diff. I will take ADU's advice and put the TV into SM and see if the timings are changing.


TIA
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