Signal Processing on Sony HDTVs - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 176 Old 08-30-2003, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
The procedure for implementing the bypass seems to vary a bit depending on the model. The HDPT bypass and the 1080i bar fix are basically the same thing though. So, at the moment, the 1080i bar fix thread is probably the best place to look for information on these different variations in implementation.

Montreal's Post #37 also covers some of this.

However, the HDPT switch in the service menu seems to be the part of the process which actually does the re-routing of 540p/1080i. On my 34XBR800 switching this from 1 to 0 is all that seemed to be necessary to invoke the "new" 1080i. However on other models, the process may be more involved. And if it's not done correctly, it might be possible to damage the TV.
Not all 34XBR800s may work the same as my TV either. Whether or not the service menu fix is all that 's needed may vary perhaps depending on where/when the TV was manufactured. Again, please see the above links for more on this.

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post #92 of 176 Old 08-30-2003, 12:26 PM
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quote:
____________________________________________________________
Before I ran across the post on using the RF input, I also switched HDPT while 540p/1080i was being displayed on my 34XBR800. I'm afraid I have a rather bad habit of not looking before I leap. But that is also why I could tell there was such a difference. So far (knock wood) it doesn't seem to have done any damage. But I wouldn't really recommend that anyone else try it, unless for some reason it's specified for their particular model. Better safe than sorry.

If you don't start to notice any unusual problems, I wouldn't worry about it. If you do, then I would think that Sony should take responsiblity for it.
____________________________________________________________

I am still a little unclear on the whole RF input setting. I made the HDPT change a while back before having my TV ISFed. I did not do it on the RF input setting. In my this case should I now go back and change the HDPT again using the RF input? Since I never had the vertical line problem I really can't tell if the change made a difference.
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post #93 of 176 Old 08-30-2003, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Ufanco,

If you're comfortable with the service menu, one way you might be able to check if the bypass worked is by trying some of the MID geometry controls on the new 1080i. (Remember, this all applies only to 540p/1080i, and no other signals.) If the bypass was succesful, then I don't think any of the following sizing/positioning controls will have an effect on the new 1080i picture. (At least they don't on my TV):

MID1
MDHP
MDVP
MDHS
MDVS

MID3
VDHP
VDHS
VDVE
VDVS

AFAIK, the new 1080i signal (w/HDPT=0) should bypass all the MID functions completely, so they should have no effect on it.

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post #94 of 176 Old 08-31-2003, 08:31 AM
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Sorry, I missed why it matters what input? Don't service mode adjustments apply globally to the set?

thx

bob



Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
Before I ran across the post on using the RF input, I also switched HDPT while 540p/1080i was being displayed on my 34XBR800. I'm afraid I have a rather bad habit of not looking before I leap. :) But that is also why I could tell there was such a difference. So far (knock wood) it doesn't seem to have done any damage. But I wouldn't really recommend that anyone else try it, unless for some reason it's specified for their particular model. Better safe than sorry.

If you don't start to notice any unusual problems, I wouldn't worry about it. If you do, then I would think that Sony should take responsiblity for it.
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post #95 of 176 Old 08-31-2003, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I suspect that selecting the RF input may be recommended on some TVs to insure there's no 1080i on-screen during the HDPT switch. That's just a guess though. Montreal offers a bit more in this subject in Post #37.

Once the bypass is implemented though, it ought to effect 1080i from any input. So the RF thing may just be a safety precaution.

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post #96 of 176 Old 08-31-2003, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by montreal
Today in the XBR910 thread, ADU writes about his skepticism of the claim made by Sony that the 910 can scan at 15.75 khz as well as 30.5 khz and 33.75 khz.
I think the info on this (Post #235/910 Reviews) is vague at best, and probably just a case of miscommunication. Again, I would be rather surprised if the 910 actually scans at 15.75kHz (480i), as that would seem to be a significant departure from their other hi-scan TVs. I could be wrong though.

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post #97 of 176 Old 09-03-2003, 11:07 AM
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Hey guys,

Just wanted to quickly post my results with Avia using a Toshiba SD-3109 interlaced DVD plugged into Component Video 5 on my new 36HS510.

Final results for 480i viewed through Compnent Video 5:

Fix red push:
RYR 15
RYB 15

Fix green undersaturation:
GYR 6
GYB 2

I now have another question. Will I need to perform these adjustments for every single input that I am using on the tv? For instance, are the Video 5 settings shared amongst other inputs? Do these settings also change depending on what source signal is coming in, i.e. 480i, 480p, 1080i?

Thanks a bunch!

Regards,
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post #98 of 176 Old 09-03-2003, 02:13 PM
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Jeff

Does Avia let you do this without fancy test equipment? I have VE and find it pretty basic.

thx

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post #99 of 176 Old 09-03-2003, 02:18 PM
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Bob,

Yes, unlike VE, Avia includes red and green filters as well as blue. I selected the appropriate test pattern "flashing green", "flashin red" or "flashing red" to match the boxes to the bars behind. Once I had tweaked those as best I could I put up another test signal that shows percentages ranging from like +35% Push to -35% undersaturation and compared each R, G and B through the filters to see where I had landed in terms of overall color balance. It's still an eyeballing thing, but it looks pretty darn good to my eyes. Flesh tones no longer are sunburned, trees are healthy and green instead of somewhat sickly and yellow is actuall YELLOW, not orange.

I haven't heard if DVE will include all three filters or just blue again... regardless, I am glad I bought Avia as I have an easier time with the needle pulses, flashing squares methods used in it.

Hope that helps,
Jeff


Quote:
Originally posted by spongebob
Jeff

Does Avia let you do this without fancy test equipment? I have VE and find it pretty basic.

thx

bob
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post #100 of 176 Old 09-04-2003, 12:30 AM - Thread Starter
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The color decoders can't be adjusted differently for each input. They are a global settings. AVIA may get you into the general ballpark for all the analog inputs though.

The DVI input on my TV had about 10% less Color saturation. To compensate for this, I used the sub-color adjustments in the S.M. Analog sources can also have different black levels. Most 480i will probably be 7.5 IRE, while progressive and HD source may be 0 IRE. I just adjust Brightness to compensate for this though.

Also, per Post #2 you can probably use 2170P-2/RGBS in place of the color filters.

Noting the above exceptions, regular 1080i ought to spec the same as 480i/480p. I'm not sure about the new bypassed 1080i though. FWIW, I think I'm only going to be using bypassed 540p/1080i via DVI from now on. Hopefully keeping everything in one basket will simplify some of this stuff.

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post #101 of 176 Old 09-04-2003, 09:58 PM
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ADU, I've been toying with the idea of setting the HDPT at 1 for programming that conceals the white bar well and switching back to 0 for something like mission to mars where there are many dark scenes. Do you see any risk in doing this? I've tried both now and can't help prefering the 1 setting. Did the other changes made in the service menu make this unadvisable? thanks


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post #102 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 01:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Hard to say. To be honest, I have some lingering doubts about the reliability of the work that was done on your TV.

Most of the bar fix tweaks seemed designed to correct 1080i so it looked better after the HDPT bypass. But if I recall correctly, your techs nearly overlooked the HDPT setting altogether, which doesn't seem to make any sense.

As long as you're observing the guidelines re the RF input (and DPSW, if applicable) described in the original bar fix thread, switching HDPT would seem to be relatively harmless. It doesn't seem like a very good long term solution though. It'd be nice if you could get someone out there who seems to know more what they're doing, who could calibrate the new barless 1080i more to your satisfaction.

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post #103 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 02:40 AM
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I have the same lingering doubts. The local PBS began the HD loop three days ago and it didn't have that "look" I was expecting so I gave in and switched the HDPT value . While watching the loop I switched back and forth. There is a big difference between the two settings from what I could see. I'm sure it's like you said , the processing kicking in. The techs did completely overlook HDPT. I had to finally tell them to try it. The calibration thing is what I'll eventually try to fix it for good. Funny thing about all this is the white bar doesn't seem to bother me nearly as much since I know I can eliminate it at will. In that sense it was a "good" fix. I just keep wondering what the possible impact of switching this could be. I mean, Sony didn't have to advertise this particular "problem" with the sets but once people like me complained why not encourage us to use HDPT as a workaround certain HD content? Another thing bothering me about all this is the B boards in the late 2002 models didn't from what I understand need replacing. Just the HDPT fix. Why then change the boards in such a way as to make it harder for this fix to be applied on later sets? Like you said the techs not knowing about this HDPT fix was strange. For right now I'm happy with the picture I get doing this switching thing. Maybe this is all that matters in the end, if it's safe.


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post #104 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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If the Sony techs completely implemented all the changes to the different modes, then the 1080i with HDPT=1 shouldn't look quite the same as it did before. Are you using primarily the Pro mode, or have you given some of the others (Standard, Vivid, Movie) a try with HDPT=0?

It sounds to me as though the original guys just may not have had a very good idea what they were doing, and perhaps a better Sony tech might be able to get the new 1080i to look a bit more like the old.... perhaps.

Did you ever have the TV ISF'd BTW? Or have you tried calibrating and fixing red push in the service menu yourself using AVIA? What I found on my TV is that the new bypassed 1080i actually seemed to work better with all my custom calibrations than the old. It was almost like the missing ingredient that completed the recipe. The only other major changes I've done since the switch are boosting the contrast to give it some more punch, and putting a little Velocity Modulation back in for some things.

I'm convinced the new 1080i looks better avec calibrations on my set than the old 1080i ever did (with DVI DVDs anyway), but it doesn't really have the "Sony look" anymore, which could be many people's preference.

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post #105 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 12:03 PM
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No calibration done so far. What's weird is it sure seems that I get the "old" picture back using 1. Another funny thing is I never had the famous red push until AFTER they did the service adjustments. I could jack the color almost to max. before seeing sunburned faces, now it's always there if the color is to high. I'm a bit unusual in that I've always preferred vivid when viewing HD material. I use standard for everything else. Pro seems kinda funny looking like everone has a serious tan and nomatter what I do I can't eliminate it. I seem to remember you talking about a yellow tint maybe that's what I'm seeing. When I have the money I'll do like you say, get someone out here who knows what they are doing and run some tests and make some adjustments. I'll tell ya though; if not for you guys and this thread I'd have nowhere to go with these questions. It sure helps, even if it's just to bounce a question off you, so thanks again. BTW, the pro setting has NEVER worked well for me, either before the service adjustments or after, although after made it better. To dark, to yellow.


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post #106 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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If I were in your shoes, I think I'd probably give the AVIA or Video Essentials a try. To use them on the new 1080i though, you'd either need to "borrow" a DVI DVD Player that can do 1080i, or use an HTPC. The THX optimizer on THX mastered disks (Star Wars, etc.) would probably also work, though not as in depth.

SMPTE color bars can be used to do much the same thing too, if you have any stations which broadcast them at 1080i. If that interests you, I could try to walk through a simple procedure on that some time. Or perhaps there's already a good page or FAQ posted on this somewhere. This would only be beneficial if greater accuracy is your objective though.

Also, the fact that you're using the Vivid and Standard modes might explain some of the differences in results we're seeing. I generally stick to either Pro or Movie, since those seem to have the fewest enhancements. They take more work to use well though. Boosting the contrast helps in many cases IMO, but many folks may have issues with that because of the potential for greater CRT wear, blooming and so on. I do a fair amount of fine-tuning of Brightness and Gamma for each DVD as well.

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post #107 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 03:03 PM
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I'll do like you say and give those a try and report back in a few days and let you know how it goes. I hate admitting I like the enhancements the set gives in the "old" 1080i. Purists seems to hate it. I think I'm still too new to HD. For whatever reason the softer the picture the more it seems like DVD to me. But like I've said, what the hell do I know!


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post #108 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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At the moment, it just sounds as though neither the new nor the old 1080i are tweaked perhaps as well as they could be. Hence the above suggestions.

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post #109 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 03:22 PM
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True. I'll do what you say. BTW I've been doing all this with component. I had the HD200 but returned it as it made the white bar brighter. The bar with the HD200 through DVI almost looked as if it was tinted pink or red. For whatever reason my 151 keeps the white bar more under control. I'm trying to get the SIR-T 351 with DVI so hopefully I'll get the more tame white bar with a DVI capability.


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post #110 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 03:35 PM
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Try a S or composite cable just for the fun of it :)

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post #111 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 10:24 PM - Thread Starter
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For 1080i? :confused: :D

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post #112 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 11:26 PM
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Oops, Sorry

Wrong thread :)

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post #113 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 11:36 PM
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IF I were you, I would seriously contact Sony and let them know you are not ahppy with the results from what the "techs" have done and you demand a replacement T.V. be sent since you are unsure of what changes have been made and are not happy with them. You deserve a near-perfect television for the price I am sure you paid. I would not accept anything but. Little tweaks here and there are O.K, but if you have to learn THEIR job, that is ridiculous.

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post #114 of 176 Old 09-05-2003, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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woodrow,

When the techs worked on your TV did they just replace the circuit board, or did they also perform teh other service menu tweaks mentioned here? If the tweaks were implemented, then I think you'd have the following values in the service menu when viewing 1080i in the indicated display modes....

For any 1080i source in any display mode (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro):

CXA2151 YGN=7
CXA2151 CBGN=8
CXA2151 CRGN=8

For component 1080i sources:

VIVID
2170P_3 SHOF=2
2170P_3 F1LV=2
2170P_1 CBOF=37
2170P_1 CROF=37.

STANDARD
2170P_3 SHOF=3
2170P_3 F1LV=3

MOViE
2170P_3 F1LV=1

For DVI 1080i sources:

VIVID
2170P_3 SHOF=2
2170P_3 F1LV=2
2170P_1 CBOF=38
2170P_1 CROF=38.

STANDARD
2170P_3 SHOF=3
2170P_3 F1LV=3.

MOVIE
2170P_3 F1LV=1

If you don't have the above settings, then perhaps these add'l picture tweaks were never implemented, and that might be why the new 1080i looks less pleasing to you.

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post #115 of 176 Old 09-06-2003, 05:35 PM
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I don't trust myself to really go in there and look at anything other than the HDPT. All those numbers that pop on the screen scare me. Since I have to write whatever changes I would make I'll try going in there and just look and see. Debennet2, i agree i should call Sony, I just loath having too start that process. I'm sure there will be MANY phone calls and some yelling to get it done. I got the 351 today for friggin full price, I won't even go into why. Did the HDPT switch through DVI and saw same differences. Again for some reason I prefer 1. I do have the tamer white bar though. I agree with Debennet2, I am having to do THEIR job on a set THEY made. I'll mess around in the service mode tonight and get back on the above values.


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post #116 of 176 Old 09-06-2003, 05:40 PM
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Forgot your question. The tech did replace the board and also made numerous changes in the service menu. How he didn't change or know about HDPT I have no idea. He said something about there being 2 service bulletins out on these sets. One for component and another for some DVI problem. Maybe he made the change in values for the wrong service bulletin?


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post #117 of 176 Old 09-06-2003, 10:33 PM
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Well I went in and looked. Most of the setting I could'nt even find? I'll tell you what I did. All 1080i inputs had something plugged in to them but not all had a video signal going in. I used DVI. It said video 7 on the right and I started looking using 4.
any source
CXA2151 YGN- 7
CBGN-8
CRGN-8
comp. 2170p_3 SHOF-1
F1LV-0
_1 CBOF-41
DVI 2170p_3 SHOF-1

These are the only settings I was able to match up with what you gave me. As you can see the any source settings were right on. But of the one I saw that did not seem to be right for sure was the DVI 2170p_3 SHOF you said 3 but it says 1. Sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I'm confused as hell. Do I need to now input with component and go back through or did I do this wrong in the first place?


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post #118 of 176 Old 09-30-2003, 06:43 PM
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Since my tube has been replaced (I am assuming they replaced the tube), I have not seen the vertical bar. Is that possible with a tube replacement or should I suspect other work was done to my set? Thanks.

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post #119 of 176 Old 09-30-2003, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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If OP/HDPT=0, then they may have applied the 1080i bypass as well.

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post #120 of 176 Old 09-30-2003, 07:13 PM
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No, actually I wasn't fully aware of the fix until AFTER the tv was in the shop (while it was in rather). I had noticed the vertical bar but thought it was just the nature of the beast. When I got the tv back, that is the first thing I fixed on the tv after doing color adjustments and overscan adjustments. Then, just to make sure I put it back to "1" and realized that the bar was not there on any HD material anymore. Weird.

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