vertical bands in philips 34pw850h? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 20 Old 02-12-2004, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Two days ago I picked up a Philips 34" widescreen HDTV tv set.

The set looks OK out of the box. However there are some isses I detect and would like to know if they can be corrected by a service technician or not.

1. Overscan. I used a patern from the Video Essencial dvd and the image is shifted towards the right side of the screen and towards the top. This causes more than 5% of image lost on those margins.

2. Temperature. When the set is at normal mode ( mid mode), and after I adjusted the image using video esential paterns the images looks too dim especially when using the component progresive scan input. I have seen calibrated sets in the past and this looks too dim.

3. Loss of detail. When using the component input from the progresive scan output of the dvd or upconverted 480p dishnetwork signal ( dvdo ican plus) the images look somewhat out of focus when compared to the input composite images. Shouldn't it be the oposite?

4. Banding. When the screen is blank ( no signal), or the images contain a lot of light colors, like sky, many bands of lighter color image can be seen in the image. I have read about this before in other threads but people have just returned the sets instead of requesting service for it.

If these can be fixed using the service menu, I plan on having the TV ISF calibrated, but, I want these fixed first.

I know the overscan can be adjusted, however I do not know about the loss of detail especially in component, dark picture (temperature), and mainly the banding.

I also know this set is not a xbr910 ( also costs about halve), but I see it has potential and would like to keep it if these can be fixed. The main thing is that my wife will not allow me to ditch the armoire where the tv sits and the SONYS will not fit there either.

Thanks,

yoyoc:confused:

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post #2 of 20 Old 02-12-2004, 01:40 PM
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Banding. When the screen is blank ( no signal), or the images contain a lot of light colors, like sky, many bands of lighter color image can be seen in the image. I have read about this before in other threads but people have just returned the sets instead of requesting service for it.
I started a similar thread shortly before you did... In short, I have a day-old Philips (same model) with the visible banding, although mine is more noticeable when the background is dark (but clearly visible on any of the AV inputs when they are bluescreened). I called Philips and they're sending a service tech out tomorrow--mostly I want to know if it can be fixed or if I just need to return the thing. I can let you know what transpires.
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post #3 of 20 Old 02-12-2004, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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please let me know.

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post #4 of 20 Old 02-12-2004, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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This banding thing does not appears to be a model specific issue. BEfore this I tried a 34pw862h and the banding was worse than on this one. I have also read about the banding on 34pw9818. Both models are higher end models with the same tube.

Have also read about banding on toshibas 34 wide models.

I hope the banding can be fixed by tecnician as otherwise the tv looks nice. right now Im watching a concert on DVD through component and it looks NICE. banding is not prominent on this material.

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post #5 of 20 Old 02-12-2004, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
I also know this set is not a xbr910
FWIW, the XBR910 isn't necessarily a whole lot better where little quirks like this are concerned. I'm certainly able to see a brightness band in panning skies (excellent example), and I imagine over/under scan is always a problem out of the box. The dim progressive scanning sounds familiar as well, I've always noticed a need to bump up the brightness slightly as opposed to 480i, but I suspect that's normal. The loss of detail however sounds cause for the concern, hopefully someone can help you out there.
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post #6 of 20 Old 02-12-2004, 08:48 PM
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I will attempt to explain what each option is

These settings are in gemoetry, 4:3 and superwide menus

this is the order they are listed in and you must adjust geometry first then either 4:3 or superwide as the geometry settings affects both 4:3 and superwide.

4:3 and superwide have no effect on each other or the geometry menu

ver-ampl is vertical amplification
ver-scor is ???
ver-slope is vertical slope
hor shift is horizontal center
hor-bow is horizontal bow
hor-parallel is horizontal parallelgram
ew-width is how wide the picture is
ew-para is parabollic adjustment
ew-trap is trapazoid adjustment
ew-ucorn and lcorn are corner adjustments
ver-shift is vertical center
ver-zoom is vertical zoom
ver-scroll is vertical scroll

Options menu

SNBP =???
CVI is componet video input
c169 and e149 = ???
SMCK =???
av3 is video 3 imput
cbfl = ???
ipix = intelligent picture but it has no effect on anything
ipmu = ???
vdby = virtual dolby and you can turn it on becuase it works
plst = picture list???
sosd = ???
blmu is blue mute
pipc, t and f are pip settings that if enabled will cause the TV to report error codes
w4x3 and 169 are for 4:3 picture tubes and cannot be enabled
vslc = v chip?
surf = channel surf
ccap= closed caption
time = clock
aavl = automatic volume level
funn =??? and causes an error to be reported if enabled
skpc = TV as center speaker option
vcbk = ???
vbnr = ???
bnum = ???
roti = rotation
tmwin = time window?
aout = audio out
incf = ???
APC = auto picture control
pagc = picture automatic gain control
wscr = wide screen
vsr =???
ctsp = ???
akbl = auto black level???
lti = light sensor??

anything below lti is hardcoded and cannot be changed and has to do with the hardware physically installed in the TV

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post #7 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 06:51 AM
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Not to hijack your thread, but what do you think of this set's picture quality with SD and HD (banding aside)?

I went to Sears yesterday hoping to look at the 34PW862H, but they only had the 850 on display. I was shocked at how much worse the 850 looked than the Toshiba and Sony sitting next to it. They all appeared to be running the same HD-Discovery loop, but the Philips picture was not crisp at all. Colors were bleeding into each other and text was not sharp. It reminded me of my current set with the color set at max. Is this just the way this set is, or was it just a poorly set up or calibrated set?
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post #8 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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... setup more than anything.

The stores in my are do not have the Toshiba which is what I wanted originally.

My conclusion comes from the fact that originally I purchased a 34pw862h wich is the higher end model and about $500 more and when I tried it at home it looked worse on SD signal than the 850h I exchanged it for.

DVDs look quite nice now that I did some setup using the video essentials but I believe service is needed, as I can see quite some variability from set to set ( store, 862 and current 850h). I will let you know after service comes on the 28th! The colors are pushed hard on the set at factory and unadjusted did look terrible on sd signals from my Dishnetwork receiver.

Pertaining the other sets. I have read that Toshiba 34hf83 is nicer but I can not say. The Sony 510 I saw on the store looked about the same in terms of apparent resolution, and a 34xbr910 I saw in another store looked a lot better, but it was calibrated, has a better tube and costs twice as much.

I have yet to see HDTV in the set but plan to try d-vhs this weekend with it.

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post #9 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by yoyoc
... setup more than anything.

The stores in my are do not have the Toshiba which is what I wanted originally.

My conclusion comes from the fact that originally I purchased a 34pw862h wich is the higher end model and about $500 more and when I tried it at home it looked worse on SD signal than the 850h I exchanged it for.

DVDs look quite nice now that I did some setup using the video essentials but I believe service is needed, as I can see quite some variability from set to set ( store, 862 and current 850h). I will let you know after service comes on the 28th! The colors are pushed hard on the set at factory and unadjusted did look terrible on sd signals from my Dishnetwork receiver.

Pertaining the other sets. I have read that Toshiba 34hf83 is nicer but I can not say. The Sony 510 I saw on the store looked about the same in terms of apparent resolution, and a 34xbr910 I saw in another store looked a lot better, but it was calibrated, has a better tube and costs twice as much.

I have yet to see HDTV in the set but plan to try d-vhs this weekend with it.

yoyoc
I recently purchased a 30pw850h from Best Buy when it was on sale starting on Super Bowl Sunday. I've got some work to do with the set as far as AVIA/DVE. AV/4 (which I'm using with my D* E86 HD STB) seems to have way more overscan than it should but I have to hook my DVD player into that input to check the overscan for that input....since I assume the overscan settings in the service menu are by input not for the entire TV correct???

When I compare the HDNET feed on this TV versus my Phillips 17" HD Widescreen, the 17" has a LOT less overscan than the 30pw850h. Same thing goes for my 50" Toshiba HD RPTV. But, when I check out the CVI input with regards to the HDNET feed (I have an RCA DVR hooked to the CVI) the overscan isn't that bad...more acceptable. So I have much fiddling to do with the set. It's just a matter of finding the time......and getting the kids out of the house (and probably the wife too) so I can concentrate on the task at hand :D

Does this set have SVM at all? I didn't notice any verbage in the service menu text files I've seen on the web.

:confused:
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post #10 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 10:07 AM
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the set does have SVM and I am not sure how you turn it off.

The set has memories for standard signals and component/HD signals

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post #11 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 11:15 AM
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Ok, Philips tech guy was out. He didn't really have anything in his knowledge base or whatever about the "jail bars", which he did acknowledge seeing on my television. (Also: I have the 30", just for reference sake, not the 34").

So he called their Quality Assurance department, who apparently acknowledged that this is a known problem with both the 30 and 34", and said that they're working on a fix...something about a "fly-back transformer"? Don't quote me on that. Fix will involve replacement of something or other. Maybe the transformer. Tech guy tried to talk QA guy into sending him the replacement kit to use my set as a guinea pig (fix is not officially rolled out yet)... Said to call him in about two weeks. I think I'm going to go ahead and keep the unit for now and see how the "fix" pans out, since it seems my chances of getting another unit with the same problem is pretty high. If they don't come up with anything in the next month or two, will probably return or swap the set.

Bear in mind I'm just repeating what I was told... Operating on almost total ignorance here, which I freely admit. :)
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post #12 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 11:24 AM
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here is the overview off of Philips website

Product Features & Benefits

Screen Size : 30" diagonal


HDTV


Eye Fidelity
Eye Fidelity allows you the choice of progressive or interlaced line doubling options. Both techniques are designed to enhance the quality of the picture by doubling the number of lines. Interlaced for fast moving images and progressive for slower moving images.

3D Digital Combfilter
Considered the best type of comb filter available, it separates colors and eliminates distortion to give you a razor sharp picture with breathtaking clarity.

Screen Format : 16:9
True 16:9 format

Active Controlâ„¢
Regardless of whether you're watching a DVD or cable, Active Control will work to maintain the specifications that you have set, optimizing your television viewing experience.

Incredible Surroundâ„¢
Incredible Surroundâ„¢ dramatically expands the sound field to create greater depth in the sound and provide the listener with an invigorating musical experience

Auto Pictureâ„¢
Auto Picture is a convenient way to access the preset picture settings to enhance the picture elements of different sources. Select from preset picture settings; Multimedia, Rich, Natural, Soft and Personal.

Scan Velocity Modulation (SVM)
This innovative circuit design provides you with a sharp and crisp picture, dramatically improving overall definition and contrast without any discoloration or blurring

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post #13 of 20 Old 02-13-2004, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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... as far as the tech knows is a defect that can not be adjusted or fixed at the moment!

those are not good news.

Still, I´ll wait for the technician to visit me and then I´ll decide what to do.

yoyoc

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post #14 of 20 Old 02-14-2004, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by YeuEmMaiMai
I will attempt to explain what each option is

These settings are in gemoetry, 4:3 and superwide menus

this is the order they are listed in and you must adjust geometry first then either 4:3 or superwide as the geometry settings affects both 4:3 and superwide.

4:3 and superwide have no effect on each other or the geometry menu

ver-ampl is vertical amplification
ver-scor is ???
ver-slope is vertical slope
hor shift is horizontal center
hor-bow is horizontal bow
hor-parallel is horizontal parallelgram
ew-width is how wide the picture is
ew-para is parabollic adjustment
ew-trap is trapazoid adjustment
ew-ucorn and lcorn are corner adjustments
ver-shift is vertical center
ver-zoom is vertical zoom
ver-scroll is vertical scroll

Options menu

SNBP =???
CVI is componet video input
c169 and e149 = ???
SMCK =???
av3 is video 3 imput
cbfl = ???
ipix = intelligent picture but it has no effect on anything
ipmu = ???
vdby = virtual dolby and you can turn it on becuase it works
plst = picture list???
sosd = ???
blmu is blue mute
pipc, t and f are pip settings that if enabled will cause the TV to report error codes
w4x3 and 169 are for 4:3 picture tubes and cannot be enabled
vslc = v chip?
surf = channel surf
ccap= closed caption
time = clock
aavl = automatic volume level
funn =??? and causes an error to be reported if enabled
skpc = TV as center speaker option
vcbk = ???
vbnr = ???
bnum = ???
roti = rotation
tmwin = time window?
aout = audio out
incf = ???
APC = auto picture control
pagc = picture automatic gain control
wscr = wide screen
vsr =???
ctsp = ???
akbl = auto black level???
lti = light sensor??

anything below lti is hardcoded and cannot be changed and has to do with the hardware physically installed in the TV
I'm on the verge of entering the service menu because I want to try and reduce the overscan when in HD mode (AV1 and AV4). I used DVE and noticed that there IS too much overscan when I am viewing widescreen (and I can tell this also by viewing HDNET through AV4 and then viewing it through AV1)--overscan seems to be there horizontally and vertically.

So my question is: Which one of the values in the SM will I have to adjust to get the overscan where I want it to be? EW for width of picture? I just don't want to get "into" the SM unless I know what I'm doing. Kind of a pet peeve of mine :D

Thanks.
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post #15 of 20 Old 02-14-2004, 07:40 PM
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I inserted {with *** and in bold below} what I *think* certain things stand for since I scoured the web for answers to the issues I posted about here


Quote:
Originally posted by YeuEmMaiMai
I will attempt to explain what each option is

These settings are in gemoetry, 4:3 and superwide menus

this is the order they are listed in and you must adjust geometry first then either 4:3 or superwide as the geometry settings affects both 4:3 and superwide.

4:3 and superwide have no effect on each other or the geometry menu

ver-ampl is vertical amplification
ver-scor is ??? ***Not sure
ver-slope is vertical slope
hor shift is horizontal center
hor-bow is horizontal bow
hor-parallel is horizontal parallelgram
ew-width is how wide the picture is
ew-para is parabollic adjustment
ew-trap is trapazoid adjustment
ew-ucorn and lcorn are corner adjustments
ver-shift is vertical center
ver-zoom is vertical zoom
ver-scroll is vertical scroll

Options menu

SNBP =??? *** Stand by No Picture
CVI is componet video input
c169 and e149 = ??? *** Compress16:9/Expand 14:9
SMCK =??? *** Smart clock
av3 is video 3 imput
cbfl = ??? *** Comb Filter
ipix = intelligent picture but it has no effect on anything
ipmu = ??? ***IPIX menu
vdby = virtual dolby and you can turn it on becuase it works ***YES!
plst = picture list??? *** Program list
sosd = ??? *** Smart On Screen Display
blmu is blue mute
pipc, t and f are pip settings that if enabled will cause the TV to report error codes
w4x3 and 169 are for 4:3 picture tubes and cannot be enabled
vslc = v chip? ***Came across something called Vertical
Slicing???

surf = channel surf
ccap= closed caption
time = clock
aavl = automatic volume level
funn =??? and causes an error to be reported if enabled *** Fine
Tuning Menu Item

skpc = TV as center speaker option
vcbk = ??? ***Vchip Block
vbnr = ??? ***Vchip Block
bnum = ??? ***Numerics Displayed in Menu
roti = rotation
tmwin = time window? ***Time out for Digit Entry
aout = audio out
incf = ??? ***Internal comb Filter Present
APC = auto picture control
pagc = picture automatic gain control
wscr = wide screen
vsr =???
ctsp = ???
akbl = auto black level???
lti = light sensor??

anything below lti is hardcoded and cannot be changed and has to do with the hardware physically installed in the TV
The last 7 you have above I couldn't find references to anywhere. I'm wondering if APC and PAGC stand for picture control, would that improve the picture quality at all.......kind of like turning off SVM?? Still wish I knew how to adjust Sharpness. Here's the site where I found most of the stuff in

Bold print above
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post #16 of 20 Old 02-14-2004, 08:48 PM
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Too bad there is not a sharpness or focus option cause on some inputs the picture is not as sharp as others.

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post #17 of 20 Old 02-15-2004, 09:58 PM
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Hey thess,
could you keep us updated on your situation with the QA guy? Mabye a phone number or name of someone to ask (if they give that info to you), because everytime i call Philips customer service they treat me like I don't know DVD's from VHS! If this fix works, I would defintly be giving them a call. The lines arn't really noticable, but on certain light grays or blues while it is panning, it is really noticable. Also, if anyone finds out about the SVM, I would be interested in turning it off also. Maybe that guy that posted on that freelists site could post here.

Ryan

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post #18 of 20 Old 02-16-2004, 02:08 PM
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I only notice the lines on a source that is solid light gray. I do not see them on Blue mute or when watching any thing from Game cube, DVD or WHS

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post #19 of 20 Old 02-16-2004, 03:28 PM
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The light gray is when the banding is most noticable. I only notice the banding if it is completely dark in my room, otherwise, it is not noticable.

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post #20 of 20 Old 02-22-2004, 05:59 PM
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Update on my 'jail bars' situation: No news from the Philips tech. I also realized belatedly that there's probably a reason that Electronics Nation has about two hundred refurbished 30PW850Hs. (I realize this thread was originally re: the 34". Sorry. My mistake in my original post here.)

Some friends were over and we were watching X2 on our progressive-scan DVD player and we spent the majority of the movie playing 'spot the jail bars', and that's when I got fairly fed up. This whole situation made us re-evaluate our television needs and Best Buy will be coming to pick this sucker up tomorrow.

I believe we're going to try the Zenith C32V37 instead.
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