JVC AV-34WP84 1500i technology - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 143 Old 03-29-2004, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't own one of these sets yet. But I am close to making the purchase, despite others' assertions that it can't possibly be as good as the(ir) Sony XBR. There's more to my decision than resolution, and the fact that it's not a Sony is actually quite interesting to me, given the everybody's-got-one feeling that a Sony would leave me with.

Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for Sony technology, and I own quite a few different Sony products, but I think there could be room for both sets to have their own strengths here. And maybe it's worth considering that JVC will occasionally contribute a few good ideas to the state of the art. Hence the 1500i interest.

Seems to me, upconverting all of the incoming formats to 1500i is a slick technical achievement, so that the CRT only has to display one format . One format means that all the other CRT design parameters can be optimized for, say, PQ, geometry, etc. The video amplifier can be optimized as well, and probably many other components. One scanning rate, one horizontal scan frequency, and so on. Think of what this could mean for beam focus, and screen brightness and contrast.

Also, the use of that many lines of resolution means that the scan line interpolation algorithm works at a much finer pitch in both the horizontal and vertical dimensions, meaning that theoretically, the signal sent to the CRT can deliver a diagonal line to the screen with 33% more precision both horizontally and vertically. Think of the implications for sets who are upconverting to 1080i. Their interpolators (line doublers) are interpolating the hypothetical diagonal line and influencing the horizontal resolution downward to the number of lines scanned. Therefore 1500i could indeed eliminate one negative influence on horizontal resolution: the line doubler.

I've seen some assertions that JVC CRT can't possibly display 1500 discreet scan lines, and I would tend to agree. But I feel that it's ok if the scan lines overlap slightly. The individual lines are each doing their incremental work, or you wouldn't see the picture as their cumulative result. As long as the resulting image is built from 1500 traces, the hypothetical diagonal line will be 33% more likely to display smoothly than if the screen was being scanned at 1080i and the scan lines didn't overlap.

I've read elsewhere in this forum about 1500i being impossible to display even on Sony's best 34" CRT. 1500 scan lines (not pixels) would be measured vertically, not horizontally. To confuse the discussion by citing Sony's horizontal resolution does the discussion a great disservice, and reveals those authors' own vertigo about a most basic aspect of HDTV technology. If you choose to discuss 1500i in this thread, please make sure you understand that it's measured vertically, at least.

It's wrong to assume that the finer shadow mask (or aperature grille) means that "screen pixels" on a Sony 34" CRT can be addressed individually, and those on a JVC 34" CRT must be somehow addressed individually at a lower horizontal resolution. There's nothing individual or discreet about it. At this point in the process, the scanning is a function of focus, and beam trace speed, and to some extent internal tube reflections, and reflections within the mask/grille. So there is no such thing as pinpoint resolution, and reverting to citing the mask/grill as a indicator of horizontal resolution is to ignore so many other things, like beam focus, and precision electronics, that are more important contributors to horizontal resolution.
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post #2 of 143 Old 03-30-2004, 06:18 PM
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WOW!
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post #3 of 143 Old 03-30-2004, 07:16 PM
 
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BOW WOW! All the good intent of 1500i means absolutely nothing if the pixels don't show up on the screen. The pathway to you know where was paved with such. Of course you do have a point that the shadow maks grill isn't all there is to picture quality--other things can really make a difference--what would be interesting is Sony's grill with JVC's electronics. I haven't seen the JVC--it might be great--go for it if you like it better, but audition it yourself against the Sony. What's most important is Picture Quality. Never buy a name just to get a name--i don't know why I say that--people will always do it. Tell us how the JVC looks. you can't appreciate the best like it should be appreciated if you haven't seen alot.
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post #4 of 143 Old 03-30-2004, 09:28 PM
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I am glad to hear your observations of the JVC. I have had large JVC direct view displays since 1991, along with a friend who has had the same. During the last 13 yrs, all the sets worked flawlessly, without a hiccup.
Now, I can't get technical, as far as the specs go, I haven't stayed up with video, but I have with audio. I simply have been bitten by the "hi-def bug", and with all the home theater equipment I have, I have decided to get a hi-def set, to compliment my audio setup. Opposite approach, I know. I made an inquiry here, to get some opinions, of this particular set, the only reply I received was from Pepco.
He highly recommended this set, and based upon this, and my experience with JVC, I went to a local dealer who I have dealt with for quite a few years, and fortunately he had a floor model on display, along with a Toshiba, Sony, and Panasonic.
Just to keep this short, the JVC is an awesome set, PQ is just as good as a Sony, maybe even better, in all fairness, they were all off of the same feed, non calibrated, but I was still impressed. The spec sheet is meaningless, it is what my eyes tell me, not the spec sheet. And I cut a deal that is 800 less than the Sony. Mine will be delivered on Friday. There is no way I could justify paying another 8 bills for a Sony.
Just to touch on specs for a minute, most decent audio receivers, will go from 30 - 20,000 hz. Can anyone other than a German Sheperd, hear 20,000 hz.?? Spec sheets can be helpful, but it is the end user that has to justify his purchase to himself, or suffer buyers remorse.
OK, I am off the soapbox, I have been suckered in by "brand names" in the past, but I have learned, the JVC name isn't exactly "burnt toast", it is a highly respected name, that has pioneered many innovations, including VHS, against Sony Beta. Beta was a great format, but due to Sony's greed where is Beta now?? Some think that the more you pay, the better it is, not neccessarily. But it is a personal, individual choice.
Good Luck, in whatever you choose.
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post #5 of 143 Old 03-30-2004, 10:49 PM
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Converting everything to one resolution is simply a cost-cutting measure. Its best to display in the native source resolution when possible to avoid scaling artifacts. Sets that support a 480p native mode in addition to 1080i native allow DVDs to display in their native resolution and 1080i HD to display native as well. Using 1500i, everything has to be scaled - possibly introducing artifacts. I also have to agree usually the limiting factor for viewable HD resolution will be the CRT's dot pitch - which clearly Sony's newest XBR HD CRTs are in a class of their own. Of course you have to pay a premium for that resolution, the JVC may be a bargain for those who don't want the highest viewable resolution, but there are other lower cost choices too like Toshiba and Panasonic. Toshiba upconverts everything as well to 1080i I believe. No consumer sets can display the entire 1080i resolution, so why use an even higher resolution, whats the point? Sounds like a "numbers game" marketing gimmick to me.
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post #6 of 143 Old 03-31-2004, 05:48 PM
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1500i could not possibly be of any real benefit, particularly in a CRT.

For one thing, you're suggesting that "upconverting" things to this resolution would be a good idea. Why on earth is that? It's not an even multiple of ANY existing format. To get 1500, you need to multiply 720 by 2.083, you need to multiply 1080 by 1.3889, and you need to multiply 480 by 3.125.

If you don't know how uneven multiplication of scanlines works out, just refer to Toshiba's old lines, which converted all SD material to 540p instead of 480p. Good idea? Nope. It results in extra artifacting, loss of detail, and general downgrading of the signal. Sure, 960x540 results in more picture density than 720x480p, but the conversion effectively COSTS LINES OF RESOLUTION in addition to adding ugly noise to the picture. I use an HTPC, and after a little while of running DVDs at 1920x1080i, I decided to make the move to 1440x960i. The result? An improvement in picture quality that was actually rather noticeable. Upconverting a 480p DVD to 1080i with anything but the best professional equipment downgrades the quality. I've seen it both ways myself.

Now imagine needing to convert all HD resolutions to 1500i. Do you honestly think that JVC is going to endow this new tube with the electronic muscle to make a clean upconvert from 1080i or 720p? Here's a hint: the thing streets for $1600. Even with the best upconversion going on (which will never happen), the best you can hope for in a tube is that you don't actually downgrade the picture. You stand no benefit from the extra lines of resolution, as tubes can't even display all 1080 rows of pixels in a 1080i signal (nor can it resolve much more than half of the pixels in each row, even in the biggest sets, save for the XBR with the fine pitch tube). While going to 1500i would theoretically in some way improve the density of the picture BEFORE it hits the mask, there's no reason to believe that it would come out any better on the other end.

You also assume that because the number of display lines is increased, the electronics in the set will be increased proportionally to deal with it. Assuming that all of the elecronic components that would be needed to optimize 1500i presentation would actually be improved so as to do just that is naive. Already video amplifiers in the majority of consumer-grade HDTVs are not enough to amplify 1080i without losing resolution, what makes you think that they'd improve them for 1500i? What makes you think they'd build a more accurate gun to produce a finer spot beam? What makes you think they'd improve the shadow mask? What makes you think that the scaler would sample images with 1500 lines for processing? Do they sample incoming SD images in 1080 lines now? They could sample it in 500 lines and multiply it 3 times. That would reduce processing cost.

They don't need to do any of that. All they need to do is put a higher number on the display model's little info card and people who don't know any better will buy it. And that's what they'll do.


Dan

"There's a... big machine in the sky... Some sort of... electric snake. It's headed right for us..."
"Shoot it."
"Not yet. I want to study its habits."
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post #7 of 143 Old 03-31-2004, 06:17 PM
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All this talk on the JVC AV-34WP and no one owns one but me. All I can say is that the TV speaks for itself(if you can find one on display to view). After owning this TV for 4 months and going back to CC walking past the 2 Sony 34s, The Sonys picture looks much darker with redder looking faces than my JVC and that was the reason from the beginning for choosing the JVC. Very vivid color on this set awesome.
Focuser, let us know if you agree after you get your set home. No regrets here.
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post #8 of 143 Old 03-31-2004, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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It just might turn out that 1500i is actually the result of JVC's research, not just hype from their marketing department. And their scientists and engineers might actually be proud of it. I'll bet that they've had focus groups view the picture "improvement" and rate it...so I'll put my money on the view that 1500i actually has some visible advantages. Maybe it has some disadvantages too.

I'll admit that scaling artifacts are a potential problem that I did not consider, but also in my auditioning this set, I did not see them. The fact that the line doubler / scaler is working at such a tight resolution might modify the outcome seen on the early Toshibas. Or maybe the 540/480 upscaling wasn't the reason for the artifacts on the Toshibas at all. We can only theorize one way or the other. Or maybe Toshiba solved their artifact problems by upscaling to 1080i for all formats, and they would have liked to go further but didn't think 1500i, was worth the extra expense.

And as far as even multiples go in general, I did a few calculations. If you align 1500 scan lines with 1080 scan lines, you match up every 75 lines (at 1500i) with every 54 lines (1080i). All the lines inbetween have to be interpolated. Coming from 1080i, there are 20 scan lines that don't require interpolation, and 1060 that do. So that means that 98% of the scan lines are interpolated. Might as well consider all of them to be interpolated. The specs on this model indicate that they have a 16M D.I.S.T. (interpolator/line doubler). 16 megabyte? Some cheaper JVC sets have a 4M D.I.S.T., but not 1500i. So I'll bet there's some correlation with the fineness of the interpolation needing more memory...but it's all conjecture at this point.

If you look at upscaling 720 to 1080, your scan lines line up on every 3rd line. Upscaling 480 to 1080, you match on every 11th line. So 90% of the lines are interpolated. I'd say that's plenty of opportunity to create artifacts, if artifacts are indeed closely tied to the "even multiple" idea. So is the Toshiba laden with artifacts when upconverting from 480 to 1080? Or is the fact that they're working at 1080 resolution making the artifacts invisible or unnoticeable?

Anyway, it looks like I'll get the chance to examine the JVC side of this question in great detail, as I ordered one of these sets yesterday and should have it next week. I see this set as one of the rare offerings that are appeal to gear heads like me. Even JVC's own marketing press release on this set comes close to calling it a Binford. Maybe, just maybe, it is.

Thanks to a fellow member of this forum, I found an internet retailer with a good price and a good return policy, and I placed my order.

I'll do my best to accurately report on my experience with this model, good or bad. Maybe this way at least this set can become less of a mystery to the members of this forum that are interested in it.
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post #9 of 143 Old 03-31-2004, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mmmikkke
I'll admit that scaling artifacts are a potential problem that I did not consider, but also in my auditioning this set, I did not see them. The fact that the line doubler / scaler is working at such a tight resolution might modify the outcome seen on the early Toshibas. Or maybe the 540/480 upscaling wasn't the reason for the artifacts on the Toshibas at all. We can only theorize one way or the other.
They're not a potential problem. They ARE a problem.

I went to a local Ultimate Electronics to test out a batch of video games on different Direct-View HDTV sets, the JVC 34" being among them. Let me tell you personally, the things this TV did to 480i video games was disgusting. One of the games my friend and I tested literally looked like someone had thrown up on the original image--and yes, we played around with settings.

I tested out every Direct-View HDTV in the store with the games I brought, and the JVC was by far the WORST looking set. You don't even have to look around to find the scaling artifacts that this so-called HDTV produces. My friend and I who went to test our game collection seriously could not believe that JVC is trying to sell this TV, it really looked like a joke. Maybe 1500i is a joke too, it's not even a real resolution!

As some previous posters mentioned, upscaling is ALWAYS problematic unless you're using extremely high-end equipment, and surprise, the up-scaling technology in consumer-model Direct-View HDTVs is NOT high-end.

You're MUCH better off getting a set that displays 480i/480p/1080i in their native resolutions. The fact that the JVC displays everything in 1500i is not a technological advancement, it's a cost-cutting measure. It costs less to make a TV that displays everything in one native resolution and throw in a garbage scaler than it is to make a TV that displays material in its native resolution.

So, if you do decide to get this TV, I hope you don't like playing video games. I didn't test any movies or HDTV stations on the set, because those are not my main functions in an HDTV, but I couldn't imagine the picture looking any better after playing video games on it. You'd be much better off taking mine and everyone else's advice that the JVC with its 1500i is no more than marketing hype. I can only imagine that the people who actually own one and say it's good haven't fully compared it to any of the other major-brand HDTV sets, have gotten used to scaling artifacts without realizing it, or are too naive to realize they're viewing a skewed version of what they should be seeing.
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post #10 of 143 Old 03-31-2004, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually, I had read a post about a week ago that shared the "puke" analogy when discussing gaming on the 34WP84. Did you post the other post? (I could search but the answer is probably useful to other readers in this thread.)

I don't plan on using video games on this set, so it could be a moot point. But it could also be that the set you demo'd was somehow broken... I'll make a point of hooking up something and testing this thing with games, when it arrives.

Thanks for the alert, and the re-alert, on this set. When the set is installed and working, I'll do some testing on this and post the results here.

Anybody else out there have the same experience? How about some testimonials about the 34WP84, pro or con?
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post #11 of 143 Old 03-31-2004, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mmmikkke
Actually, I had read a post about a week ago that shared the "puke" analogy when discussing gaming on the 34WP84. Did you post the other post? (I could search but the answer is probably useful to other readers in this thread.)

I don't plan on using video games on this set, so it could be a moot point. But it could also be that the set you demo'd was somehow broken... I'll make a point of hooking up something and testing this thing with games, when it arrives.

Thanks for the alert, and the re-alert, on this set. When the set is installed and working, I'll do some testing on this and post the results here.
Yes, I believe it was me who made the analogy in the post you read beforehand.

It could be a moot point if you plan on using video games on the set, but please, test some games if you do have any console systems (some 480i, 480p, and 720p too if you have an X-Box)!

Any TV that doesn't display 480i natively, but rather, upscales it to some other display resolution, does definitely seem to be problematic for many 480i video games although many consumers don't seem to notice. I would imagine a similar problem if the 480p and 720p were up-scaled by the JVC.

My research on HDTVs is very recent, but upscaling is a very BAD thing for video games and that can only mean that there are probably artifacts in movies and in HDTV programming as well (I'm a game buff, not a DVD or HDTV broadcast expert).

Glad this was helpful, not trying to diss your purchase, but I tried the JVC in-store with an open mind and was very unimpressed.
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post #12 of 143 Old 04-01-2004, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pepco
All this talk on the JVC AV-34WP and no one owns one but me. All I can say is that the TV speaks for itself(if you can find one on display to view). After owning this TV for 4 months and going back to CC walking past the 2 Sony 34s, The Sony's picture looks much darker with redder looking faces than my JVC and that was the reason from the beginning for choosing the JVC. Very vivid color on this set awesome.
Focuser, let us know if you agree after you get your set home. No regrets here.
I certainly will. It will be delivered tomorrow afternoon (Friday).
As I said in my last post, I am not up on video specs, I just use my eyes, not specs to judge a set. I did see it in the store next to a few of the other brands, Sony being one, and it looked just as good, if not better than the others I saw. I used this, and my previous JVC experience, to decide to pull the trigger.
Once I have it set up, in my viewing area, then I will be able to make a fair assessment of the set, and I will post my opinions here.
My only criteria is, how does it look, and does it do everything that it is supposed to do.
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post #13 of 143 Old 04-01-2004, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pepco
All this talk on the JVC AV-34WP and no one owns one but me. All I can say is that the TV speaks for itself(if you can find one on display to view). After owning this TV for 4 months and going back to CC walking past the 2 Sony 34s, The Sonys picture looks much darker with redder looking faces than my JVC and that was the reason from the beginning for choosing the JVC. Very vivid color on this set awesome.
Focuser, let us know if you agree after you get your set home. No regrets here.
I don't own the JVC I have the 34xbr910 and just because you walked past a dark looking xbr with redder looking faces doesn't mean a thing. The 34xbr offers the best PQ on any direct view set when properly calibrated, that is why people like it and even at 2k+ it is a good bargin.

This is a physical issue with the grille and electronics. You might be able to fool Joe Six Pack but the magazine reviews and user testimonials aren't faked. If the 1500i JVC sets were so great people would buy them in great numbers.

There is no world-wide conspiracy to keep JVC and it's ground breaking 1500i technology away from the mass market... go put back on your foil hats and turn down the squelch on your police scanners ;)
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post #14 of 143 Old 04-01-2004, 03:56 PM
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Dearth I agree with you, Sony is the best and I look for JVC to recall all their tubes for having the worst PQ of all time. Stay away from JVC and go look at a Sony made movie, I mean HDTV. SONY RULES!!!!!
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post #15 of 143 Old 04-01-2004, 06:18 PM
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I didn't say they suck or have a very bad PQ. They are fine for what they are intended to be, value minded HDTVs.

Joe Six pack wouldn't even buy a JVC my father would never spend 1,300 on a TV even if it tucked him in. There is the law of diminishing returns of course to some a JVC is all the PQ they'll ever need and more. I think it is great to recommend whatever set you like but let's not pretend that the JVC is some sleeper pick that has the BEST PQ and saves you a thousand dollars to boot.
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post #16 of 143 Old 04-01-2004, 07:12 PM
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Dearth, I dont think I ever said that JVC had the best PQ of the 34 inch tubes, maybe I did but I dont think so. I will admit that looking at the 2 Sonys at CC you can see the fine dot pitch on the 910 over the 510 but you must admit you can only notice it from 1 to 2 ft away from screen, but it is noticible, therefore I must say that the 910 has better PQ. Is that worth the extra money that the 910 cost? Maybe, maybe not. To be honest, after having Sony tubes for years(which I still have in bedrooms) I got a 27 inch JVC for my kids bedroom and was really impressed with the PQ. So when I went searching for my first HDTV I saw that JVC on their website had came out with a 34 inch tube and I just went for it. Why the JVC is not at BB or CC? I dont know. Why this set has never been reviewed in any magazine or website? I dont know. Thats what I meant by sleeper, not thats its the best out there. Its that not many people know about or have seen it. I am not putting down the 910 by no means, I just went down a different road. Why are so many problems reported about the Sony on this site? Cause there is alot more people in here that owns the Sony. My second choice was the Toshiba followed closely by the Sony 510. I never really considered the 910. Thats my story and I am sticking to it. PS they really do have a darker picture, redder faces that the JVC, but some folks may like that. Later
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post #17 of 143 Old 04-01-2004, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE]Originally posted by Dearth
I didn't say they suck or have a very bad PQ. They are fine for what they are intended to be, value minded HDTVs.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that JVC is a value minded product, in any way, shape or form. The JVC name is highly regarded, and is right up there with the best of them, at least where I live, in the NY Metro area.
It certainly is not in the Apex, Daewoo, category. In all honesty, a lot of people are brainwashed by names such as Sony, Denon, assuming that the more they pay, the better the product. I've had Sony products in my time, I had a Sony audio system installed in one of my cars, it sounded good, but I heard better. A friend of mine bought a state of the art Sony audio receiver, frankly, it was lousy, he returned it, and got an Aiwa, and it sounded much better, for roughly half the price.
Sony products are basically price fixed, and expensive, and allow the dealer a higher markup, so if a consumer comes into his store, what set do you think he is going to push? if the price of a Sony is 2299, that is what you are going to pay. Where as some companies, JVC included, allow the dealers some leeway, do a google search on this particular JVC, and you will see prices ranging from 1500-2200, and if you can get one for 1500, this is called "smart shopping".
I've seen your set in a few stores, and frankly I wasn't impressed, if I was, I would have bought it, 500 this way or that wouldn't stop me from getting something that I thought was vastly superior.
But I wont degrade your decision to buy it, you bought it because you liked it, and that was your perogative, and I wish you well with it.
It was the JVC that impressed me, and that is my decision, and I am not a "Joe Sixpack", I am fortunate enough, that I can buy the things I like.
So lets not degrade other peoples likes and dislikes, and keep this thread on track, which is the discussion of the JVC AV34WP84.
You might be the nicest guy in the world, but after reading your "tin hat" post, I would have a difficult time taking any of your advice seriously, including your opinion of Sony TV's.
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post #18 of 143 Old 04-02-2004, 08:04 AM
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not to nitpick, but I had no problem haggling the Sony 34hs510 down $300 at CC last Summer. If you pick the right store, like a CC, you shouldn't have a problem negotiating price on any tv
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post #19 of 143 Old 04-02-2004, 12:06 PM
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I got my JVC, at around 10 am, and having been doing some minor adjustments, contrast, brightness, etc.
This set is fantastic !! Right out of the box, I just plugged it in, hooked up my Dish network receiver, and I am getting a gorgeous picture. As Pepco said, the blacks are black, whites are white. I scanned the channels, no red push, flesh tones are perfect.
I hooked up my progressive scan DVD player to it, and it is a beautiful crystal clear, highly detailed picture. I don't see how anything can be improved. I also connected my analogue cable to it, and that also has a beautiful picture.
Thanks Pepco, for the recommendation, I liked JVC from the start, but your experience with the set, helped me to pull the trigger.
Now I have to call the cable company and get the hi-def package, much better offering than Dish, so I can take full advantage of this set, and get the JVC 36" behemoth off of my kitchen floor.
I would highly recommend that anyone in the market for a 34" direct view, at least take a look at this set, you won't be sorry.
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post #20 of 143 Old 04-02-2004, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by NorthJersey
not to nitpick, but I had no problem haggling the Sony 34hs510 down $300 at CC last Summer. If you pick the right store, like a CC, you shouldn't have a problem negotiating price on any tv
You are a "smart shopper", and that is to your credit. Sony prices will be dropping though, with the newer models about to be released. As a rule Sony prices are pretty much set in stone.
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post #21 of 143 Old 04-02-2004, 03:30 PM
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Focuser, you havent seen anything yet until you see a TRUE HD signal on this set. With a HD signal the vivid colors and detail will really come alive.
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post #22 of 143 Old 04-02-2004, 05:00 PM
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The thing that surprised me the most, was the quality, right out of the box. When I began to consider hi-def, I was reading about calibration, secret menus, secret settings, buying special DVD's to try to calibrate yourself, or get a pro for $200+. I was starting to think, do I really need this?? It sounded like some sort of exorcism ritual had to be performed on the set, before it would look halfway decent.
I adjusted the contrast, brightness, from the regular users menu, and although there are other adjustments that can be done, like straightening the picture, purity, etc. I didn't have to touch anything.
I am also very impressed with stretch modes, I am using the "full" mode, and it looks very good, fills the screen nicely, and doesn't really have that "stretched" look.
I just got off the phone with my cable company, they will be installing the full hi-def package on Monday, so I am looking forward to that, then I will really enjoy the set.
I am dropping Dishnetwork, as they really don't offer too much in hi-def, my cable co. gives you the networks, PBS plus HBO, SHO, MAX, Encore, ESPN, and some others.
I held on to cable for locals, and high speed internet access, when I joined Dish, so their cabling is all in place, should be just a matter of installing a box. The thing I will miss is the DVR, but there is always Tivo, or Replay.
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post #23 of 143 Old 04-02-2004, 05:51 PM
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DVR- HD with cable is on the way. This TV also has great sound, no vibration noise coming from cabinet at any level that I have found.
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post #24 of 143 Old 04-03-2004, 06:43 PM
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Does this JVC offerning have a 'blue screen'?
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post #25 of 143 Old 04-04-2004, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by OneArchitect
Does this JVC offerning have a 'blue screen'?
What do you mean by "blue screen"? If you mean a blue screen mute, on a non operational channel, then yes...
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post #26 of 143 Old 04-04-2004, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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As promised, here are my first impressions on my recently aquired JVC 34WP84:

Even though I am still running only with the internal analog tuners, I have some opinions about the set now that you might find interesting. At first I thought I didn't have any business reporting on this set until I'm running an HDTV tuner, but tonight I realized everything I have to say will still be valid even then.

First of all, I have evaluated as best I can, the arrangement of phosphors on the tube. (For the purposes of discussion, I will call them pixels, even though some readers might quibble with whether a CRT even *has* pixels.) The shadow mask / phosphor arrangement gives 750 (approx.) RGB phosphor groups (pixels) across the screen, measured horizontally. In any given column of pixels, there are also 750 pixels measured vertically. But since each even column of pixels is offset 1/2 pixel from the odd column next to it, the result just happens to be, er...uh, that the 1500 beam traces actually have something to hit (theoretically, anyway). Ok, I know, we've spent a lot of time struggling with whether 1500i has anything to hit on the tube... and now we can see that it does, so I'll expect the discussion to at least acknowledge this.

As far as PQ goes, from my recent experience, one of my hot buttons on CRT sets I've viewed in stores, it that some of them have voltage regulation issues, so that when a bright screen abruptly switches to a dark screen, the high voltage section of the CRT electronics doesn't compensate properly, and the image on the screen pulsates in width and height at the same instant. The top-of-the-line Toshiba (34" crt) I looked at in the store had a big problem with this. While I was auditioning the Toshiba, ESPN came up with a dazzling sequence of sports clips, with a furious bright-then-dark-then-bright graphics extravaganza between each clip, and each time ESPN tried to dazzle me, the Toshiba image bloomed, moving the edge of the picture by at least 1/4 inch. I looked at the set next to the Toshiba. Also a 34" CRT, but I don't remember the brand or model. Same problem. Checked out an LCD set behind me. No problem. Were all 34" CRT's going to do this? I was in suspense until my set arrived.

I'm relieved to report that this JVC 34WP84 has a rock solid image, regardless of any sequence of light and dark scenes that I've seen so far. Even a completely white background causes absolutely no blooming, no shift in position of the network logo embossed in the image in the lower right corner.

With the input sources thusfar tried, no dot crawl, no tinted corners or edges, or blotches. No color bleeding. Pastel backgrounds are uniformly pastel across the entire screen. It's peaceful.

Screen geometry is not excellent, but it is very good compared to the sets I have evaluated in stores. Banners across the top or bottom of the screen--like you see on sports broadcasts--are almost precisely parallel to the screen edges. I marvel at their straightness and parallelism to the edge every time one is displayed. None of the other branded sets in stores was this good. Vertical lines at the right and left edges of the screen are not quite as straight as the horizontal banners mentioned above, but still perfectly acceptable.

With my Winegard antenna on the roof, I am getting DVD-quality images when the broadcaster has their act together enough to broadcast one. I have absolutely no snow or ghosting on 3 out of 4 of the main broadcast network affiliates. So the internal analog tuner, and the rest of the set's image electronics, isn't polluting a clean signal in any way that I can see. Upconverting to 1500i is fully redeemed at least here, in 480i territory.

DVD images are, as expected, really about the same as they were on my previous set (which was no slouch). I still see the shimmering on the text in the credits at the end of the movie as they scroll up the screen, and this is due to interlacing, inherent in the DVD's own interlaced format, and no miracle happened here. They still shimmer. What a shame, I was hoping that would go away.

Thus far, I'm scaling to 1500i from 480i with my broadcast analog signal, and also from 480i or 480p on DVD. In my setup, I can run S-video (480i) or component (480p) from my DVD player, and I don't see any difference between the two, whether the set, or the DVD player is doing the line doubling (de-interlacing). This eliminates, in my mind, some of the suspicion about upconverting to 1500i adding artifacts needlessly. If the 1500i upconversion was artifact-ridden, I should have seen a difference between the 480i and 480p inputs, since there had to be a difference in the conversion algorithm between the two.

When I run Picture on Picture, with a 4:3 image of scanned channels displayed in a stack of 3 images along the right side of the picture, I can still read the text in the POP screens, which gives me a good feeling about what I'll be seeing when my HDTV tuner arrives on Monday or Tuesday. There's still untapped resolution out there.
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post #27 of 143 Old 04-05-2004, 02:08 PM
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Mike, keep us posted when you get your HDTV tuner.
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post #28 of 143 Old 04-05-2004, 09:50 PM
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I just had my hi-def cable service installed this afternoon. I just got done watching Leno, on the Tonight Show, all I can say is simply AMAZING !! There is no way, any set can beat the quality of this set, Sony or any other brand. Some may be just as good, but nothing could be any clearer, and vivid, and detailed than this.
Blacker than black, whiter than white, and very detailed and vivid colors, as I said in one of my other posts. Perfect flesh tones, and absolutely no calibration done to this set.
Even the installer, who does about eight installs a day commented on the picture quality of this set. Given the choice again, I wouldn't consider anything else...
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post #29 of 143 Old 04-08-2004, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pepco
All this talk on the JVC AV-34WP and no one owns one but me. All I can say is that the TV speaks for itself(if you can find one on display to view). After owning this TV for 4 months and going back to CC walking past the 2 Sony 34s, The Sonys picture looks much darker with redder looking faces than my JVC and that was the reason from the beginning for choosing the JVC. Very vivid color on this set awesome.
Focuser, let us know if you agree after you get your set home. No regrets here.
Hey Pepco, I got my JVC last month and let me express my complete agreement. I looked at the Sony, the Philips, the Samsung, the Sony was the closest in PQ but the JVC is brighter with better skin tones and overall I am really knocked out. The various aspect ratios all work well and I am very impressed with the native scaler in a unit of this price; I have yet to see any artifacting, jaggies, motion, etc. Premium digital signals (not HD) are superb. Even broadcast STV is excellent. I can't wait for my cable provider to get HD later this spring.

I wholeheartedly endorse this product.
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post #30 of 143 Old 04-08-2004, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mountaineer
Hey Pepco, I got my JVC last month and let me express my complete agreement. I looked at the Sony, the Philips, the Samsung, the Sony was the closest in PQ but the JVC is brighter with better skin tones and overall I am really knocked out. The various aspect ratios all work well and I am very impressed with the native scaler in a unit of this price; I have yet to see any artifacting, jaggies, motion, etc. Premium digital signals (not HD) are superb. Even broadcast STV is excellent. I can't wait for my cable provider to get HD later this spring.

I wholeheartedly endorse this product.
Mountaineer, you cant say those things about the JVC 34 around here, no one will believe you. Wait til you see a true HD program, there is no comparision to what you have been seeing. The vivid colors come alive and you can see the peach fuzz on the cheeks of women. Brights are bright and the blacks are black. Skin tones are very true.
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