The Official Kd-34xbr960 Thread - Page 283 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #8461 of 8482 Old 08-13-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post
The 960's input electronics support INPUT source resolutions of 480i, 480p30, 720p60 and 1080i source. You cannot feed it 1080p.

And of course, its composite and S-video inputs support only 480i input. For 480p, 720p and 1080i, you must use either its component video input or its HDMI input.

The 960 has a "native resolution" of 1080i. That means it has a maximum of 1080 lines of electron beams projected onto the screen by the electron gun, and that at that maximum resolution there will be alternating "interlaced" sets of the even/odd 540 lines at a time, each set of 540 lines sent out to the screen 30 times per second. A CRT monitor can display an image at any "display (aka "source input") resolution" at or below its maximum "native resolution". The electron beam is "scaled up" if necessary in order to utilize the complete 34" diagonal screen area available for the image being displayed, subject to some service menu adjustable "overscan" around the perimeter designed to reduce negative visual artifacts of projecting the electron beam from a conceptual point source onto a flat rectangular screen. The adjustable overscan "magnifies larger" the actual displayed image typically anywhere from 0-10% to try and eliminate the worst artifacts which appear at the extreme edges of the electron beam image which are now no longer physically visible on the screen.


Because scanline-based CRTs are analog in nature they can vary their display CRTs provide a variability in resolution that fixed resolution pixel-based LCDs cannot provide. The 960 eliminates its "interlaced" function when the input is 480p, so 480p30 input (e.g. from old video games) is presented using 540 display lines (which holds the complete 480 lines of source input) 30 times per second so that there is no visible "flicker" at all. This is what made (and still makes) the 960 desirable for early gamers. As a matter of fact, I was able to sell my own 960 last year (located here in LA) to a buyer in Oklahoma who was willing to pay for crating and shipping (by a mover) halfway across the country, so that he could have this set for him and his son to play old video games on... at a "true progressive 480p" non-flicker no-delay only possible with old analog CRT-based sets.

So you could say 480p30 input is displayed at a "native 480p" within 540 screen lines completely refreshed 30 times per second. Zero flicker. In contrast, the 960 displays the 1080 screen lines of 1080i input exactly as one would expect, namely displaying all 1080 lines of input as two alternating interlaced sets of even/odd 540 screen lines, presenting each set of 540 lines 30 times per second.

720p is obviously its own problem for an analog CRT that has 1080 screen lines to display content and a maximum refresh rate of 30 times per second. My old Sampo set actually had extra electronics in it to provide "native 720p60" HD support. That means (like how 480p is handled on the 960) it would display all 720 lines of source input using the 1080 lines on the screen, refreshing those 720 lines 60 times per second, which is what 720p60 HD demands.

The 960 doesn't contain this electronic capability for "native 720p60" support as it can only refresh the screen 30 times per second. So it converts 720p60 input into 1080i for display, displaying alternating even/odd 360 source input line pairs at a time, within two pairs of 540 screen display line sets, with each alternating set of 540 lines refreshed on the screen 30 times per second. Yes, input 720p60 is accepted, but it is not displayed as true 720p60 like the Sampo did. Instead 720p60 HD input is interlaced by the 960 electronics for presentation, and is displayed as interlaced 1080i.

(I'm pretty sure I've got this right).
But according to raouliii and his Sony manual, the 960 converts everything (including 480p) to 1080i. A fixed 1080i only TV like the 960 can't be good for video games.
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post #8462 of 8482 Old 08-13-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by hipper View Post
What model HD-CRT do you have?

I should've known Sony would cheap out and not give us progressive-scan (not even 480p) on any of their alleged "HD" CRT TVs.
I don't follow why you would say this.

As I stated above...

480p30 source input via component video and HDMI IS supported as supported source input by the 960. And it also actually IS displayed as "native progressive 480p30". It is not interlaced for display, but instead is handled with its full 480 lines presented within a 540 line "frame" sent to the screen 30 times per second, just as progressive-scan 480p30 should be handled. But then 480p30 is not technically considered HDTV. It is considered "enhanced definition TV (EDTV)".

Higher HDTV source resolutions of 720p60 and 1080i30 are accepted as input to the 960 via component video and HDMI, but are both displayed using the 960's native resolution of 1080i30 (interlaced 540 even/odd screen lines, each alternatingly presented 30 times per second).
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post #8463 of 8482 Old 08-13-2017, 08:04 PM
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If raouliii and the Sony training manual are 100% correct about the XBR960 converting everything to 1080i, wouldn't that make the XBR960 one of the worst TVs for gaming? Even worse than a LCD? Since the XBR960 will not only have lag from it's native 1080i, but will add even more lag from converting everything to 1080i.
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post #8464 of 8482 Old 08-13-2017, 08:11 PM
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DSperber,

I can't reply to you directly. My replies never show up for some reason.

I wanted to tell you that according to the Sony training manual, the XBR960 other Sony HD-CRTs convert everything to 1080i including 480p.
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post #8465 of 8482 Old 08-13-2017, 09:44 PM
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As I stated above...

480p30 source input via component video and HDMI IS supported as supported source input by the 960. And it also actually IS displayed as "native progressive 480p30". It is not interlaced for display, but instead is handled with its full 480 lines presented within a 540 line "frame" sent to the screen 30 times per second, just as progressive-scan 480p30 should be handled. But then 480p30 is not technically considered HDTV. It is considered "enhanced definition TV (EDTV)".
The 960 (like all other DA-4 Sony TVs) can accept 480p, but it can't actually display it. Because,

From the Sony training manual:
Quote:
"All video processing is performed on the B-board (DRC and MID processing).
The DRC circuit will double the horizontal frequency for input signals with 15.75KHz (NTSC) horizontal inputs. The MID circuit will up-convert the horizontal frequency of the input signal to 33.75KHz, which is the scan rate of the DA-4 and DA-4X chassis. Table 5-2 shows the signal standard and its associate horizontal frequency.

Table 5-2 - Input Signal Standard and Horizontal Frequency
Input Signal Horizontal Frequency
Standard NTSC 480i 15.534KHz
High Resolution 480p 31.5KHz
High Resolution 720p 45KHz
High Resolution 1080i 33.75KHz

The following is a description of the signal flow for each standard listed in Table 5-2:
· 15.734KHz input: DRC circuit up-converts to 31.5KHz and MID circuit up-converters to 33.75KHz
· 31.5KHz input: MID circuit up-converts to 33.75KHz
· 33.75KHz input: XBR, HV pass through MID; HS bypass MID circuit
· 45KHz input: MID circuit down-converts to 33.75KHz
This is very cheap and lazy on Sony's part. Just upscale everything to the TV's native 1080i, screw quality, right Sony? I've heard the XBR960 can't even resolve the full 1920x1080i. To think Sony was asking well over 2 grand in 2004 for this interlaced monstrosity.
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post #8466 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 07:05 AM
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I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on TV.

But if the 960 has the ability to present 540 lines at a time at a rate of 30 times per second, then 1080i can be displayed by the alternating display of even/odd sets of 540 lines at a time, each set alternately refreshed 30 times per second. All 1080 input lines are presented 540 lines at a time, each set of 540 alternately presented 30 times per second. That's what 1080i30 means.

480p30 is different. If you take the 480 "informational" lines of 480p30 source image input, and you place them in 540 screen lines since the 960 presents 540 lines at a time, and you throw out the same 540 lines to the screen 30 times per second, is that not the definition of "progressive"... namely the same 100% of all input lines refreshed over and over to the screen at 30 refreshes per second, rather than "interlaced" where alternating even/odd input lines are refreshed 30 times per second? Sure, it's not 60 refreshes per second of all lines like 720p60 would be presented on an LCD set, but it's a CRT that refreshes at 30 times per second. So presenting the same 540 lines (containing 100% of the source 480 lines) 30 times per second is 480p30.

480p30 is not being "interlaced" for display at 1080i with 30 refreshes per second of alternating sets of even/odd input lines (e.g. only 240 at a time) being presented. Instead, the identical same 540 lines (containing all of the 480 input lines) are being presented over and over 30 times per second. How is that not 480p30 "progressive"? That's precisely the definition of "progressive".
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post #8467 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by hipper View Post
Thank you!


What model HD-CRT do you have?

I should've known Sony would cheap out and not give us progressive-scan (not even 480p) on any of their alleged "HD" CRT TVs.
CT-34WX50. There were later models with upgraded tech as time went on; mine doesn't have DVI or HDMI. I know there's a WX54, the other ones I don't know. These are lacking in forum threads unlike the Sonys. I'm speculating that it natively displays 480p due to its behavior, but I don't know for sure (I'm not a gamer). Mine does have a Game mode in its menu.

This Sony issue, I don't know who's correct. Is that document info for a 960, is it correct (i.e. it's copy&paste), and is it being interpreted properly? And there are older versions of this set as well as a 'newer' one and last one released (970 - could have been a cost-reduced version to compete with the onslaught of plasmas, etc. at the time as it doesn't have the SFP tube). What I do know from reading this forum is that they love it for gaming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA
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post #8468 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Floydage View Post
CT-34WX50. There were later models with upgraded tech as time went on; mine doesn't have DVI or HDMI. I know there's a WX54, the other ones I don't know. These are lacking in forum threads unlike the Sonys. I'm speculating that it natively displays 480p due to its behavior, but I don't know for sure (I'm not a gamer). Mine does have a Game mode in its menu.

This Sony issue, I don't know who's correct. Is that document info for a 960, is it correct (i.e. it's copy&paste), and is it being interpreted properly? And there are older versions of this set as well as a 'newer' one and last one released (970 - could have been a cost-reduced version to compete with the onslaught of plasmas, etc. at the time as it doesn't have the SFP tube). What I do know from reading this forum is that they love it for gaming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA
Floydage-
I was thinking that you owned a 960 calibrated by DSperber?
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post #8469 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 12:32 PM
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Floydage-
I was thinking that you owned a 960 calibrated by DSperber?
Not me, he sold it to someone in Oklahoma who actually had it shipped. And DSperber isn't a calibrator per se that I know of but he did have it professionally calibrated by someone called D-Nice (sp?); west coaster I believe. D confusion.

I do have a Sony KV-20FS120. Great little TV for the office. Practically looks HD at this small size and actually has a component input; has an enhanced res. function that bumps it up to 500-something in wide mode (but a 4:3 TV). Unfortunately no s-video port so I have to run my CECB composite, but still looks great.


Last edited by Floydage; 08-14-2017 at 12:40 PM.
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post #8470 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post
I'm not an engineer, and I don't play one on TV.

But if the 960 has the ability to present 540 lines at a time at a rate of 30 times per second, then 1080i can be displayed by the alternating display of even/odd sets of 540 lines at a time, each set alternately refreshed 30 times per second. All 1080 input lines are presented 540 lines at a time, each set of 540 alternately presented 30 times per second. That's what 1080i30 means.

480p30 is different. If you take the 480 "informational" lines of 480p30 source image input, and you place them in 540 screen lines since the 960 presents 540 lines at a time, and you throw out the same 540 lines to the screen 30 times per second, is that not the definition of "progressive"... namely the same 100% of all input lines refreshed over and over to the screen at 30 refreshes per second, rather than "interlaced" where alternating even/odd input lines are refreshed 30 times per second? Sure, it's not 60 refreshes per second of all lines like 720p60 would be presented on an LCD set, but it's a CRT that refreshes at 30 times per second. So presenting the same 540 lines (containing 100% of the source 480 lines) 30 times per second is 480p30.

480p30 is not being "interlaced" for display at 1080i with 30 refreshes per second of alternating sets of even/odd input lines (e.g. only 240 at a time) being presented. Instead, the identical same 540 lines (containing all of the 480 input lines) are being presented over and over 30 times per second. How is that not 480p30 "progressive"? That's precisely the definition of "progressive".
But if the XBR960's scan rate is always 33.75KHz, doesn't that mean an up-conversion to 1080i?
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post #8471 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 05:41 PM
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Here's the Sony DA-4 chassis training manual (on page 48):
http://www.justanswer.com/uploads/av...0_L5_TM_sm.pdf

This manual predates the XBR960, However, the XBR960 has the DA-4 chassis.
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post #8472 of 8482 Old 08-14-2017, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hipper View Post
But if the XBR960's scan rate is always 33.75KHz, doesn't that mean an up-conversion to 1080i?
I don't think this is apples-to-apples. The scan rates aren't describing the presentation method for all input source lines when that source line number is 480, 720 or 1080. It's describing how the electron gun can spray out 540 lines at a time to the screen, with whatever populates those lines.

For 720 and 1080 line input, two 540 line frames would be needed (populated alternatingly with even/odd line pairs with each pair refreshed 30 times per second). But with 480 line input, only one 540 line frame would be needed to hold them all (i.e. 480p) or for 480i input you'd place 240 even/odd lines at a time in that 540 line frame and again alternatingly present them 30 times per second.

As I understand it, "interlaced" specifically means half of (i.e. even numbered) the input source lines are presented at one time on the screen, followed by the other half of (i.e. odd numbered) the input source lines, alternating, occurring 30 times per second. On the 960 which has potential for 1080 screen scan lines of information, the scan rate supports only 540 lines at a time being presented 30 times per second.

In contrast, "progressive" specifically means that ALL of the input source lines are presented at one time on the screen, and refreshed at 30 times per second (for old CRT's) assuming the display hardware can do that.

That means when presenting 1080i source only 540 even lines are presented first, and then 540 odd lines are presented, 30 times per second. I think this is where the 33.76KHz scan rate comes into the discussion: 540 lines at 30 refreshes per second.

Now we all remember how the picture improved when DVDs where upgraded to present 480p "progressive", whereas previously they only presented 480i "interlaced" (like NTSC TV). That meant instead of presenting alternating even/odd 240 lines at a times 30 time a second from the original 480 line source image, now all 480 lines at a time would be presented 30 times a second. Our brains and eyes were not asked to process alternating even/odd 240 lines at a time and be asked to both (a) merge the even/odd line information, as well as (b) "eliminate "flicker". Instead, now there would simply be nothing to merge and "no flicker" at all. The complete 480 lines of source input information was thrown out to the screen 30 times per second.

As I understand it, the 960 handling of 480p source is similar to the 480p progressive-scan DVD players, since all 480 input lines can fit into one 540-lines-at-a-time flash frame out to the screen 30 times per second (i.e. 33.75KHz scan rate). There's no need to divide the source in half and only display 240 lines at a time, since all 480 can be presented at once within the 540 line frame. Yes, if the source were 1080i and your electron gun could only shoot out 540 screen lines at a time (to eventually populate the screen's 1080 lines 540 at a time via even/odd interlacing), you'd need to use "even/odd interlacing" as the presentation method. Similarly with 720p, which again can't all be displayed at one time due to the 540 line limit of the 960. But with 480p source all 480 lines can be presented at a time within the 540 frame of the 960, and at a rate of 30 times per second... with no even/odd interlacing required. I believe that's how 480p30 source is handled on the 960... with no odd/even interlacing of source lines but instead all 480 input lines presented at one time.

Progressive.

(I'm willing to hear or be pointed to a more analytical and technical dissertation, to "defend" the 480p approach of the 960 as I believe is attested to by generations of "gamers" who seek out this set to play old 480p video games with zero flicker or delay. Yes, 720p60 HDTV is handled as 1080i due to the 540 lines-at-a-time limitation of the 960's electron gun. But 480p input has no such constraint.)
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post #8473 of 8482 Old 08-16-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post
I don't think this is apples-to-apples. The scan rates aren't describing the presentation method for all input source lines when that source line number is 480, 720 or 1080. It's describing how the electron gun can spray out 540 lines at a time to the screen, with whatever populates those lines.

For 720 and 1080 line input, two 540 line frames would be needed (populated alternatingly with even/odd line pairs with each pair refreshed 30 times per second). But with 480 line input, only one 540 line frame would be needed to hold them all (i.e. 480p) or for 480i input you'd place 240 even/odd lines at a time in that 540 line frame and again alternatingly present them 30 times per second.

As I understand it, "interlaced" specifically means half of (i.e. even numbered) the input source lines are presented at one time on the screen, followed by the other half of (i.e. odd numbered) the input source lines, alternating, occurring 30 times per second. On the 960 which has potential for 1080 screen scan lines of information, the scan rate supports only 540 lines at a time being presented 30 times per second.

In contrast, "progressive" specifically means that ALL of the input source lines are presented at one time on the screen, and refreshed at 30 times per second (for old CRT's) assuming the display hardware can do that.

That means when presenting 1080i source only 540 even lines are presented first, and then 540 odd lines are presented, 30 times per second. I think this is where the 33.76KHz scan rate comes into the discussion: 540 lines at 30 refreshes per second.

Now we all remember how the picture improved when DVDs where upgraded to present 480p "progressive", whereas previously they only presented 480i "interlaced" (like NTSC TV). That meant instead of presenting alternating even/odd 240 lines at a times 30 time a second from the original 480 line source image, now all 480 lines at a time would be presented 30 times a second. Our brains and eyes were not asked to process alternating even/odd 240 lines at a time and be asked to both (a) merge the even/odd line information, as well as (b) "eliminate "flicker". Instead, now there would simply be nothing to merge and "no flicker" at all. The complete 480 lines of source input information was thrown out to the screen 30 times per second.

As I understand it, the 960 handling of 480p source is similar to the 480p progressive-scan DVD players, since all 480 input lines can fit into one 540-lines-at-a-time flash frame out to the screen 30 times per second (i.e. 33.75KHz scan rate). There's no need to divide the source in half and only display 240 lines at a time, since all 480 can be presented at once within the 540 line frame. Yes, if the source were 1080i and your electron gun could only shoot out 540 screen lines at a time (to eventually populate the screen's 1080 lines 540 at a time via even/odd interlacing), you'd need to use "even/odd interlacing" as the presentation method. Similarly with 720p, which again can't all be displayed at one time due to the 540 line limit of the 960. But with 480p source all 480 lines can be presented at a time within the 540 frame of the 960, and at a rate of 30 times per second... with no even/odd interlacing required. I believe that's how 480p30 source is handled on the 960... with no odd/even interlacing of source lines but instead all 480 input lines presented at one time.

Progressive.

(I'm willing to hear or be pointed to a more analytical and technical dissertation, to "defend" the 480p approach of the 960 as I believe is attested to by generations of "gamers" who seek out this set to play old 480p video games with zero flicker or delay. Yes, 720p60 HDTV is handled as 1080i due to the 540 lines-at-a-time limitation of the 960's electron gun. But 480p input has no such constraint.)
So the 960 isn't taking 480p and up-converting it to 2 interlaced 540 line frames? What about 480p games that run 60fps? Do those get chopped down to 30fps?
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post #8474 of 8482 Old 08-16-2017, 01:54 PM
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So the 960 isn't taking 480p and up-converting it to 2 interlaced 540 line frames? What about 480p games that run 60fps? Do those get chopped down to 30fps?
Excellent banter- hipper and DSperber
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post #8475 of 8482 Old 08-30-2017, 08:54 AM
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Motion Resolution and Input Lag test results

Has anyone seen any test results on the KD-34XBR960 for Motion Resolution and Input Lag?

I often see modern TVs (e.g., LCD and OLED) tested on motion resolution and input lag. Were similar tests ever done on the XBR960? What scores did it get?
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post #8476 of 8482 Old 09-07-2017, 02:07 PM
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Weird HDMI Color Issues

I recently acquired a 34xbr960 and the HDMI port does not appear to be working correctly. When I plug in a device (xbox 360, Roku, Nintendo Switch set to output 720p) via HDMI the picture looks nice and clear but the colors are way off with apparently no blue color showing. My Xbox 360 worked fine via component. I tried a different HDMI cable and had the same issue. Has anyone else run into this issue?
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post #8477 of 8482 Old 09-11-2017, 07:11 AM
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Folks,
I am getting rid of, as in throwing out, my 34xbr960.
I long since placed a 50" LCD in front of it, and have not gone back.
Anyone is welcome to come and pick it up in Weston MA.
It is in perfect working order.
Call any time.
Michael
c617-771-2732
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post #8478 of 8482 Old 09-15-2017, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by rvxq View Post
Has anyone seen any test results on the KD-34XBR960 for Motion Resolution and Input Lag?

I often see modern TVs (e.g., LCD and OLED) tested on motion resolution and input lag. Were similar tests ever done on the XBR960? What scores did it get?
Welcome! rvxq
I am not aware of such testing. Perhaps an ISF calibrator can answer your query?
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post #8479 of 8482 Old 09-15-2017, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by newbtube View Post
I recently acquired a 34xbr960 and the HDMI port does not appear to be working correctly. When I plug in a device (xbox 360, Roku, Nintendo Switch set to output 720p) via HDMI the picture looks nice and clear but the colors are way off with apparently no blue color showing. My Xbox 360 worked fine via component. I tried a different HDMI cable and had the same issue. Has anyone else run into this issue?
Welcome! newbtube
do you have a TV repair shop near you? Perhaps a tech could check out your 960.
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post #8480 of 8482 Old 09-15-2017, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Warbird7 View Post
Folks,
I am getting rid of, as in throwing out, my 34xbr960.
I long since placed a 50" LCD in front of it, and have not gone back.
Anyone is welcome to come and pick it up in Weston MA.
It is in perfect working order.
Call any time.
Michael
c617-771-2732
Thanks! for sharing- Michael. Hope your 960 finds a new home. These CRT sets are too wonderful to discard.
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post #8481 of 8482 Old 09-20-2017, 11:13 AM
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Is there a way to check how many hours the XBR960 CRT has and how many times the display was turned on/off in the service menu?
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post #8482 of 8482 Old 09-24-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by 34-hfx-83 View Post
Is there a way to check how many hours the XBR960 CRT has and how many times the display was turned on/off in the service menu?
Very nice query- I would be interested in learning more about this as well.
Perhaps one of those guys who do the ISF Calibrations on these older CRT sets knows an answer?
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