Comments on 30HF84 I Just received from Amazon. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 406 Old 10-05-2004, 03:11 PM
Member
 
Elite09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Mine is fine as well.
Elite09 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 406 Old 10-05-2004, 05:11 PM
Advanced Member
 
boden11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well the tech came out to my house about 20 mins ago and agreed that there was an obvious geometry issue. Played in the service menu for all of like 7 minutes and couldn't find anyway to fix it (DUH). Then went on to say that it was most likely within spec and there was nothing he could do. So now I'm on the phone with Toshiba CSR (still on hold) to try and get a refund.

I definitely learned my lesson--check out the tv first. I will be evaluating other 30-32" models (30 16:9 Sony, 32 4:3 Sony, maybe even the Panasonic or a newer 30HF84) ARMED with my Avia Home Essentials disc. F'ing joke.

Now I have to fax a copy of my purchase receipt to Toshiba...I doubt this is going anywhere
boden11 is offline  
post #273 of 406 Old 10-05-2004, 08:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
boden11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just checked out the 32HS420, 34HS420 and 34XBR960 Sony models with my Avia disc...*ALL* had noticeable geometry issues. However they did seem not AS bad as the 30HF84. Hmmmm. Curious how fixable the Sony issues are as my tech didn't take more than 2 minutes before giving up on my set.
boden11 is offline  
post #274 of 406 Old 10-05-2004, 08:30 PM
 
CrocHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
only on the edges i assume right?all tube crt sets have some sort of distortion, no tube set is perfect.
CrocHunter is offline  
post #275 of 406 Old 10-05-2004, 08:33 PM
Advanced Member
 
boden11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
yeah their issues are more broad and not centered anywhere. its not like way jagged verticals

i'd imagine some pincushion fine tuning and other stuff could fix it up. on my tv its just like if u wanna fix one thing it messes something else up. so there's not much to do. the best set i saw was a sony 34xs955 which had an AMAZING majority of the screen near perfect but then a messed up bottom right corner (fairly distorted, i'd imagine any tickers or banners in this area would look wrong). shrug.
boden11 is offline  
post #276 of 406 Old 10-05-2004, 08:51 PM
 
CrocHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
looks like that is as good as you are going to get it man.:)

I'm interested in the sony 34hs420 and have the money, but would like to know if the 34xs955 is worth the extra $$.

How is the geometry on the two?
CrocHunter is offline  
post #277 of 406 Old 10-06-2004, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Don't know what is going on in my local Toshiba service center, but I am still waiting someone to come out to inspect my TV. Nobody seems to care about my TV even after numerous calls to them.
arthurking is offline  
post #278 of 406 Old 10-06-2004, 09:36 AM
Member
 
bjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Floral Park, NY
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I feel bad for you.

I have all the same problems too.
extremely grainy, 4:3 bars not straight.
Xbox (on MS component HD pack) - some games are ok, halo looked like crap. True crimes looked OK.

PS2 using composite video looked like crap

when watching TV using dish 811 connected via component cables, some channels look good, others don't.

but then again, people here are posting that other tv's in this classs have the same problems too?

let's all file a lawsuit, any lawyers out there?

Sony KP46WT510
Dish 811
bjohn is offline  
post #279 of 406 Old 10-07-2004, 08:53 AM
Senior Member
 
rubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
arthurking,

Do u have only 1 local centre. I have to call 3 seperate support centre to finally gets hold of a guy who was ready to come.

Thanks
--rubs
rubs is offline  
post #280 of 406 Old 10-07-2004, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
yeah, I only have one local service center. I think the second closest one is about 20-30 miles away and I don't think they will be willing to perform the in-home service at all.
arthurking is offline  
post #281 of 406 Old 10-08-2004, 10:30 AM
Senior Member
 
rubs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
i feel u should call them..they might be willing to come since they will billed directly to toshiba..in my case i called guys all over MA area
rubs is offline  
post #282 of 406 Old 10-08-2004, 10:33 AM
 
CrocHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's not right what toshiba is doing, they are supposed to have good customer support.
CrocHunter is offline  
post #283 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
OK. The worst thing I can imagine just came. This afternoon two technicians came to inspect my TV. During their presence, I shown them all the problems I mentioned in this post. While one guy didn't say a lot, the other guy kept saying geometry, grainy picture are normal things on HDTVs and they have heard a lot. I challenged him by saying how about we go outside and buy another HDTV to see what can be called normal. He then shut up for a minute. They did admit the geometry is out of place and there are enough problems with my TV. They did nothing to my TV because one of them said he needs to call Toshiba and he thought he can't do anything to help my TV. To my surprise, when I called Toshiba later this afternoon, I was told that that technician told Toshiba there is nothing wrong with my TV and thus there will be no replacement. I was infurious and I immediately called my local service center again. Another guy answered my phone and denied their technician ever said that. Then I called Toshiba again and while on hold, I even can heard that two guys were laughing in the background and mentioned my case and that technician's name, I was finally told that I need to wait a few business days to let them call local service center and call me back. When I asked how long a few business days is, I was told there is no definite time frame and what I can do is to just wait.
Well, after more than 5 weeks waiting and tons of time and energy wasted during this process, Toshiba finally started to deny any problems existing on my TV, just like what I was afraid of. Toshiba is supposed to resolve this issue in a timely manner, with a responsible attitude. All of my experience just confirmed my guess again and again: They actually do not care about an individual customer like me.
After this post, I will go to BBB and FTC to file complaint against Toshiba. Is there anybody here who know if I can go to small claims court to sue Toshiba? Any suggestion will be appreciated. I will not let this go easily!
I saw many people in this post said they were happy with their Toshiba TV and I want to congratulate these guys cause you don't need to deal with a low company as Toshiba just like me. Please remember you can only judge if a company's customer service good or not only when there is something wrong with your TV. I learned my lesson in a hard way and will never forget this.
arthurking is offline  
post #284 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 02:58 PM
Member
 
matrixrok10's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 140
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Try fighting it with your credit card company. It's worth a shot. Sorry to hear about your experience. Whenever I threaten to report companies to BBB (when they're being unreasonable), they usually budge. Either they give me a refund or correct the situation. Ask for everybodys' name that you have talked to and tell them you are reporting all of them to BBB. More than likely they will try to fix your situation At my local electronics store, they said they don't carry Toshiba HDTV's because no one bought them last year. This is probably why the price went down, as well as the quality. Best of luck!
matrixrok10 is offline  
post #285 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for the suggestion. I bought the TV with my AMEX blue. It does offer return protection and double the factory warranty. But the return protection is only up to $300. I think this will be the last resort I will go to. It is just too frustrating to deal with Toshiba. I think I won't try to threaten them but I will directly go and file the complaint to BBB and FTC.
arthurking is offline  
post #286 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 03:10 PM
Member
 
Elite09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 136
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Sorry to hear that Arthur, I would probably file to the BBB and FCC. Get the process started anyway. Fire off an email to Toshiba with your case number and see what happens.

I hope everything turns out for you.
Elite09 is offline  
post #287 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I just filed complaints via both BBB and FTC. I also copied the complaints to Customer_Support@tacp.com. BBB always work out good results for me before.
I hope other people who are experiencing similar problems and received no or little help from Toshiba can file complaints against Toshiba, too. We must force Toshiba take some actions to remedy this situation: repair or replace the faulty TV, or even refund us.
arthurking is offline  
post #288 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 06:48 PM
 
CrocHunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,570
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you win, which you should i would deffinately get a refund.With all that frustration with Toshiba, if it were me i would never buy anything from them again.

Good luck man, on your complaint;)
CrocHunter is offline  
post #289 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 08:42 PM
Advanced Member
 
boden11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I think I'm in the same boat as Arthurking. Had 2 techs come out and basically he was like 'yeah the geometry is off, but it's within spec.' But you could tell from how he reacted when he first saw the tv there was no way in hell he would buy it after seeing it (Avia geometry video test). So when I asked him 'what next' he told me to contact Toshiba.

So I faxed Toshiba all the paperwork (original receipt, repair work from the auth. tech shop) with some info like serial#, some comments and whatnot. Got a call today saying they weren't able to get ahold of the tech. I'm guessing the tech is going to give some bull like saying there's nothing wrong and it's within spec (when he came out he said I was 'picky') like in wanting a brand new TV to not give a distorted picture is picky. I've got hope though because someone said they did get a 30HFX84 out of it. I'd rather have a refund and get the Sony KV30HS420. I'm guessing the HFX series has the same tube anyway so it's not going to be any different. Although maybe it was a bad batch from Amazon in the first place (?). Who knows.
boden11 is offline  
post #290 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 09:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Hogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I may get killed on this board, but I am looking to upgrade from a 1990 25" WalMart TV. I really like the specs/price/size of the 30HF84 (or maybe even 34hf84). Of course, I should have stayed away from this board because now I am scared.

In following DLP 6 months ago, I learned that many posters to this board are incredibly precise about certain issues and will stop at nothing until their TV is perfect. But, technology on some of these items doesn't satisfy their perfectionist ways so these boards are more about picking apart the products rather than enjoying what they have.

Just hoping that perhaps if I check this out in the store it will still be a big step up and will meet my needs, even if it has a 2 pixel bend on the 4:3 grey bars.......otherwise what is one supposed to buy since you guys basically find problems with EVERY product??????
Hogan is offline  
post #291 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 11:15 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If you have time to follow my posts, you will see why I hate this TV. Of course you could still be able to be very calm even you are in a situation just like mine. I am not a picky customer, and I am not making an unreasonable request. What I want is simple and straightforward: Toshiba should repair the damned defective TV for me and if they can not, replace one for me.

The following is what I have done (1 and 2) what I plan to do next:

1. File a complaint against Toshiba with the Better Business Bureau

2. File a complaint against Toshiba with the FTC

3. File a complaint against Toshiba with Planet feedback

4. File a complaint against Toshiba with the Attorney General of my state and NJ (the state that Toshiba's head office locates)

The complaining may or may not help, but it does make me feel better.
The value of time and energy I spent in this painful experience during the past 5 weeks must have exceed the $717 purchase price for this TV. Now if I can choose to start again, I'd rather to throw $717 into the water than put my money on this Toshiba TV.





Quote:
Originally posted by Hogan
I may get killed on this board, but I am looking to upgrade from a 1990 25" WalMart TV. I really like the specs/price/size of the 30HF84 (or maybe even 34hf84). Of course, I should have stayed away from this board because now I am scared.

In following DLP 6 months ago, I learned that many posters to this board are incredibly precise about certain issues and will stop at nothing until their TV is perfect. But, technology on some of these items doesn't satisfy their perfectionist ways so these boards are more about picking apart the products rather than enjoying what they have.

Just hoping that perhaps if I check this out in the store it will still be a big step up and will meet my needs, even if it has a 2 pixel bend on the 4:3 grey bars.......otherwise what is one supposed to buy since you guys basically find problems with EVERY product??????
arthurking is offline  
post #292 of 406 Old 10-12-2004, 11:25 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I hope you can be more successful than me. I have given up my hope on Toshiba. Basically, they are telling me my serious geometry problems(none of the vertical lines are straight and horizontal line on the right bottom is way out of place) are within specs. Obviously, most HDTVs will have very grainy pictures even showing progressive DVDs and xbox or ps2 games according to them. In addition, dancing pixels in the pictures of all inputs and the extreme pixelations on the edge, which makes a line looks like the stacking of a bunch of unconnected short lines, can be seen very often on nowadays HDTV tubes according to them.



Quote:
Originally posted by boden11
I think I'm in the same boat as Arthurking. Had 2 techs come out and basically he was like 'yeah the geometry is off, but it's within spec.' But you could tell from how he reacted when he first saw the tv there was no way in hell he would buy it after seeing it (Avia geometry video test). So when I asked him 'what next' he told me to contact Toshiba.

So I faxed Toshiba all the paperwork (original receipt, repair work from the auth. tech shop) with some info like serial#, some comments and whatnot. Got a call today saying they weren't able to get ahold of the tech. I'm guessing the tech is going to give some bull like saying there's nothing wrong and it's within spec (when he came out he said I was 'picky') like in wanting a brand new TV to not give a distorted picture is picky. I've got hope though because someone said they did get a 30HFX84 out of it. I'd rather have a refund and get the Sony KV30HS420. I'm guessing the HFX series has the same tube anyway so it's not going to be any different. Although maybe it was a bad batch from Amazon in the first place (?). Who knows.
arthurking is offline  
post #293 of 406 Old 10-13-2004, 01:12 AM
Advanced Member
 
boden11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 519
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
If I were you I would keep calling them, and keep calling them, and keep calling them...AND KEEP CALLING THEM.

Like THX-1138 (the movie) eventually they will figure out that it will be better to just refund your money then have you waste 30 minutes of CSR time EVERY SINGLE DAY. This is what I plan to do if I don't get the response I want from Toshiba (though first I will call up the tech who talked to Toshiba and ask him wtf...hopefully he will own up and say there are some geometry issues). Almost hoping it's refund so I can get the Sony rather than deal with more issues with the 30HFX84 (which I would expect to be no difft than the 30HF84). Though maybe the 30HFX83 might be better...
boden11 is offline  
post #294 of 406 Old 10-13-2004, 11:45 AM
Member
 
len43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally posted by matrixrok10
Try fighting it with your credit card company. It's worth a shot. Sorry to hear about your experience. Whenever I threaten to report companies to BBB (when they're being unreasonable), they usually budge. Either they give me a refund or correct the situation. Ask for everybodys' name that you have talked to and tell them you are reporting all of them to BBB. More than likely they will try to fix your situation At my local electronics store, they said they don't carry Toshiba HDTV's because no one bought them last year. This is probably why the price went down, as well as the quality. Best of luck!
Do NOT fight it until you have at least made an attempt with Amazon to return it. Yeah, I know their policy but the credit card company will side with Amazon for sure if you do not make that attempt. Toshiba is not the same thing as Amazon in this case.

You may want to pursue the fact that Amazon did not have the complete details page up at the time of purchse. This is important because they did not plainly state their return policy as they have it now.
len43 is offline  
post #295 of 406 Old 10-13-2004, 09:54 PM
Member
 
bconover1328's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't know if you guys saw my other thread or not, but I was in the same exact boat as you and Toshiba is now sending me a new 30hfx84. Basically, I had the tech guy who looked at my set document the problems with the TV. I guess I was lucky in that he seemed more than happy to cooperate. He basically wrote on the slip the geometry and convergence issues that could not be fixed. When I called Toshiba, they asked to fax my bill of sale and also called the tech. Since he documented my problems, they said they would replace due to unfixable errors with the tv.

In any case, if the tech identifies the problems, just ask him to include that in his report or whatever. I don't see how Toshiba can get out of replacing the tv in such a case.
bconover1328 is offline  
post #296 of 406 Old 10-14-2004, 07:11 AM
Member
 
bjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Floral Park, NY
Posts: 47
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Which model did you have? 30hf84?


Quote:
Originally posted by bconover1328
I don't know if you guys saw my other thread or not, but I was in the same exact boat as you and Toshiba is now sending me a new 30hfx84. Basically, I had the tech guy who looked at my set document the problems with the TV. I guess I was lucky in that he seemed more than happy to cooperate. He basically wrote on the slip the geometry and convergence issues that could not be fixed. When I called Toshiba, they asked to fax my bill of sale and also called the tech. Since he documented my problems, they said they would replace due to unfixable errors with the tv.

In any case, if the tech identifies the problems, just ask him to include that in his report or whatever. I don't see how Toshiba can get out of replacing the tv in such a case.

Sony KP46WT510
Dish 811
bjohn is offline  
post #297 of 406 Old 10-14-2004, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
arthurking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 324
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The problem is in my case, though the technician admited the problems on my TV, he seems very reluctant to help me out of this situation. I don't know why since it won't cost them anything. But they seems just do not care. Maybe I am out of luck.
arthurking is offline  
post #298 of 406 Old 10-14-2004, 09:29 AM
Senior Member
 
Hogan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
This is a lesson about getting things done. Sometimes in my past I have been TOO forceful, too insistent, too much "in the right". The Toshiba reps may not feel compelled to go out of their way to help you because they don't feel bad for you in their heart.
Hogan is offline  
post #299 of 406 Old 10-14-2004, 04:03 PM
Member
 
bconover1328's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I had a 30hf84 ordered from Amazon.com on september first.
bconover1328 is offline  
post #300 of 406 Old 10-14-2004, 07:55 PM
Senior Member
 
hurtz777's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
Posts: 487
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I was one of the first to buy a 30HF84 in this forum. I bought it on 08-06-04 and got a June build date. It had horrible geometry on all parts of the screen, bad focus, and horizontal jerks on 1080i inputs. I called it in for service on 08-23-04 and the tech finally made it out right after Labor Day. His first visit he said he would try to get a hold of Toshiba engineers On Site for a fix. They didn't answer in 5 minutes so he left and said he would call me back and he enver did. The next week I called the shop and they said they ordered a board for it. To make a long story short after 2 boards and 5 weeks without my $953 HDTV in my house and over 2 months after the original call was made I still don't have a new working HDTV. I have called and documented over 15 calls with Toshiba and have insisted an exchange since they couldn't repair it in a timely manner or even repair it at all. I have been very professional on the phone with them and it hasn't helped because they aren't being professional with me by always saying it will be 3-5 business days for us to make the next move on your situation. I even spoke to a supervisor and he said that they handle things in the order they come in. My answer to that was "So, you have many others ahead of me that have been without a working HDTV for 5 weeks after their initial purchase?" He blew me off by saying that they handle other issues there also and that it in 2-3 more days someone will call me. I have filed a formal complaint with the Better Business Bureau and Federal Trade Commission hoping to get something accomplished in this stressful ordeal. I am going to demand a 100% functional 30HFX84 or a complete refund. Without either one of those I will not quit fighting. I am ashamed what has happened to Toshiba's customer service and ways of handling these situations.
hurtz777 is offline  
Closed Thread Direct View (single tube) CRT Displays



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off