Tweaking Tips For SONY Owners!!! - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dark Rain
It does on the XS and XBR models. It's not adjustable via the SM on the HS models.
My manual for the entire line of late-model 32-, 34-, and 36HS510 models indicates service-mode adjustments for *horizontal* convergence, affecting vertical white lines and edges. See attached file. Vertical convergence seems to be correctable only with magnets.

 

hs510 d-convergence.pdf 227.412109375k . file

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post #182 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dark Rain
I think if I call Sony and they send a tech out, I'll probably get someone that doesn't know what they're doing or they'll feed me some line about how my convergence errors are "within spec." It's probably worth a shot just to see if anything can be done to correct it.
When I contacted Sony by email, they sent me a list of several techs in the area.
The one who I contacted, connected his test generator and did a great job with the corners. [I'm not expecting studio monitor quality, but I think he brought it up to the design specs.] He did mention that you really do want to allow for some overscan. (Good news: we don't see the closed caption info on the first couple lines. Bad news: some of the sports scoring boxes are cut off.)

I was lucky to speak to the tech in arranging the service call, explaining it was a "fine tuning" adjustment. He didn't have a problem with that.
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post #183 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmccorm
FWIW, what I am seeing so far (against real images rather than synthetic benchmark images, and on high definition 1080i images on a xbr960) is that SYSM=0,1 looks a bit sharper than 2,3 ... even with sharpness set to 20. I'm having trouble getting a feel for which may be more artifical. The fuzziness of 3/4, or the sharpness of 0/1, but I find the 0/1 more pleasing.
Please see my post #151 in this thread. SYSM = 0/1 or 2 has downsides. If sharpness enhancement is desired, there are places where it can be optimized in the service codes without making the picture obnoxious and unnatural.

Note that MIDE is a pointer to a numbered column in the MID5 table. Check out MIDE = 24 or 25 for gentle sharpening. (MID5 column numbers don't actually imply anything; the columns seem to have been configured in no particuar pattern.) See attached for an example of the table. The POP code temporarily sets you to a particular column so you can experiment or make changes to the table without having to go to the 2170P-3 group's MIDE setting. I don't know what #19-36 do yet.

You can hijack one of the picture modes for your purposes, perhaps mild sharpening when you need it. See post here:
http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic....19861&forum=25

I highly recommend leaving SYSM = 3 (no effect) for DVD and HD modes, but one can make an arguement for having it at 2 for tweaking crummy broadcast SD video. SYSM is affected by the Sharpness slider in the user menus. The effect of SYSM = 2 or 1 seems to bottom out with Sharpness slider set to 20-ish, actually softening a bit below that.

 

mid5 table for 34hs510.pdf 51.466796875k . file

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post #184 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 10:34 AM
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adding my post from yesterday (from the KD-36XS955 thread) to here in hopes that someone can help

...

ok fellow KD-36XS955 owners please help me out
sorry for the basic lingo but I am by no means a videophile

just received this set today replacing my almost 10 year old 27" RCA F27675BC (no I don't think the BC is for Before Christ)

anyways I have the set hooked up to Directv
on my old 27"er the pic looked great (I only moved up because I wanted a larger, modern, flat screen, set capable of HD for the future)
with the new Sony the first thing that struck me was the blurring and lack of clarity in any on screen text and lack of overall picture sharpness.
I was watching the college hockey game on ESPN and the logo/score inlays on the screen did not look sharp nor did the overall picture...found it really hard to read the names on the back of the jerseys. Baseball looked even worse. This was not just limited to sports programming of course.

Any initial thoughts about some adjustments I could make or is this just a limitation of the directv feed being made increasingly visable on a larger set (like I said my old set looked great)? Does 9 more inches of picture really sacrifice so much detail? I have played with the basic settings and haven't found a cure. I have not touched the service menu a) because I don't know how b) because I don't want to play around with stuff I have little knowledge of.

many more questions to come I'm sure
thanks in advance for hopefully helping me start to improve this to my liking
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post #185 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KenTech
My manual for the entire line of late-model 32-, 34-, and 36HS510 models indicates service-mode adjustments for *horizontal* convergence, affecting vertical white lines and edges. See attached file. Vertical convergence seems to be correctable only with magnets.
Thanks for that info, KenTech. I think I'm going to call Sony and get a service tech to fix it just to be safe.
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post #186 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 07:50 PM
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made a few tweeks and things look slightly better than last night
the yellow digital clock against the black background on '24' (rerun tonight) looked sharp as a tack

but the blurring/out of focus effect is most visable when watching sports programming
very hard to read names and numbers on jerseys
and made even worse on sports highlight shows like Sportscenter where the feed is not live

still looking for some tips on how to possibly 'clear' this up on the KD-36XS955
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post #187 of 258 Old 04-08-2005, 09:09 PM
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I called Sony about my less-than-satisfying experience with the factory tech they sent out to adjust my XBR960 convergence and geometry problems. They contacted him, and got back to me saying that he wasn't going to come out again... that the set was now "within spec".

Well I was unhappy, to say the least. But rather than insist on a replacement (which would have been an inconvenience for all), I asked if I could get a local factory authorized service guy to come out for a second opinion/attempt at curing my problems. They said fine, and gave me a few names. One I had used before for a VCR problem, and they were so rude and horrible (and, never fixed the VCR!) that I would NEVER use them again for anything. I called another and they don't do repairs(!!!) and didn't know why Sony had their name and number.

Finally I reached a small shop, and the Japanese owner knew exactly what I was talking about regarding the first Sony tech who had come out. Anyway, we made an appointment for him to come out late this afternoon.

Well he was here for about two hours late this afternoon, and answered all my questions about how to navigate through the service menu and make adjustments. He then used the service menu to adjust my horizontal and vertical size issues, along with overscan adjustment, centering and corner pincushion problems. The result was MUCH better than when we started. MUCH BETTER!

Next, he spent about an hour and a half working on my convergence problems, both horizontal (on vertical white lines) and vertical (on horizontal white lines)... and eventually ran out of tape/magnets before he was quite finished (to his and my satisfaction)! So he said he'll come back week after next (with more magnets and a large mirror) to finish the job, as he has a seminar this coming week. He realized he wasn't quite done, but seemed to be as much of a perfectionist as I am and didn't want to leave things quite the way he had to.

Nevertheless, the job he did was TERRIFIC! He did, indeed, resolve all of my corner geometry and convergence problems, and also resolved most of the left-side blue/yellow convergence issue. This was one area where he wasn't quite finished. But his work made such a difference that I can now press DISPLAY on the XBR960 or get into any menu on the 6412 and not see a blue/yellow glow around graphic rectangles or text characters.

What a difference from the way the first tech left things. What a difference to find an "artiste" who appreciates a customer who appreciates his talent and attitude, and seems to perform even better for it.

I'm watching "Once Upon A Time In Mexico" on HBOHD right now and I don't think I've never seen an HD transfer look so spectacular... bright (but with a director-stylized reddish cast), clear, sharp, perfect color. I attribute this largely to my user-menu setup work this week (using DVE) coupled with his work today correcting my convergence and geometry problems.

I am now VERY VERY HAPPY with my XBR960! And when I get the final magnet tweaks applied in a few weeks, I'm sure things will be as close to perfect as they can be on a large flatscreen CRT.

Very happy. And I intend to call Sony and report my experience, specifically with this tech.
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post #188 of 258 Old 04-09-2005, 07:46 AM
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could someone please help, on my kv36hs420 hd channels are shown fullscreen or more like the wide zoom is on, but I cannot change it through the user menu so is there a code to shut this off in the service menu
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post #189 of 258 Old 04-09-2005, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KenTech
My manual for the entire line of late-model 32-, 34-, and 36HS510 models indicates service-mode adjustments for *horizontal* convergence, affecting vertical white lines and edges. See attached file. Vertical convergence seems to be correctable only with magnets.
Thank you very much for the scan! I was able to make some very excellent corrections in the horizontal convergence. I'm very happy.

The only horizontal convergence challenge I have remaining is figuring out if there would be some way that I can balance out the convergence in the lower half of the screen. If you divide the screen into four areas, then let's call "A" the -middle- of the lower left quadrant, and "B" the -middle- of the lower right quadrant. It seems that I can get one side into complete convergence, or the other side, but not both areas A and B at the same time. (The center and the edges aren't a problem.)

Of course, I've settled for an averaged error on both sides.

OWWW. Now I remember why I hate doing convergence. Now I'm seeing colors on edges of EVERYTHING, even real world objects. I've got to rest my brain for a few.
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post #190 of 258 Old 04-14-2005, 04:59 PM
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I'd just like to say hello and that I hope to work with Ken and those of u willing to really delve into this. I may not have all of Ken's analytical tools but I hope that we can really knock this thing out. I spent quite a long time catching up on this thread last night, and I think it might be good to coalesce some of this information and possibly start a new thread. Ken I have heard u speak of excel spreadsheets others have put together can u give us any info on those sources and or the sheets please?

Also, I am going to start the task of digging into PQ as I am a fidelity nut. First, I do have a few questions. Does anyone know the variable for decreasing the size of the black bars? as I am unable to get rid of vertical overscan entirely. I have the KV-32HS500(non-widescreen). I am a gamer. I like to play pc games in widescreen, but I have in the past turned up the VSIZ to 63 (Is this dangerous?) in order to have some semblance of 4:3 aspect. This also leaves just under an inch of black at the top and bottom. It would be nice to have the big screen in 4:3 with no bars(at high resolution of course) again I think the bar size will change this. Also others have asked only to be ignored is there a way to turn off the vertical squeeze to 16:9? I have noticed that if I watch closely sometimes the set first sets the picture horizontally so that I can see the full image just vertically stretched and then the bars kick in taking it down to 16:9.

For the time being I am still working on geometry and would like to ask DSperber. Do u have a number for your Japanese tech? U said he had a seminar? As in teaching? Is there anyway to learn from this guru? I dunno a long shot I guess but that guy sounds like the sheet. Also can u give any insight on these magnets and how they were used? And what does the mirror have to do with anything?
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post #191 of 258 Old 04-14-2005, 05:45 PM
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Thanks for all the tips everyone. I plan on working on adjustig overscan soon.

2 questions/problems: The lower left-hand corner of my screen sort of bends inward a little bit. I also have discoloration near that area - it looks green when the background is red. Anyone know if this is something serviceable?
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post #192 of 258 Old 04-14-2005, 09:23 PM
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Here are all the settings I took down from my KD-34XBR960 monitor before I began working on it. Hope this is helpful to someone. (Comparing codes/settings between models, making a more comprehensive spreadsheet, using this as your own starting point to record your settings, etc etc.)

I was in pro/1080i at the time. I'm pleased to say, thanks to KenTech, that I have also made significant geometry tweaks since then.

 

kd-34xbr960.zip 12.435546875k . file
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post #193 of 258 Old 04-15-2005, 09:51 PM
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i've been trying to get my pic correct using hpos and hsiz, however, once i get it set, and turn off the tv, then back on, it goes back to how it was. do you have to do something to save the settings?
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post #194 of 258 Old 04-15-2005, 10:01 PM
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never mind, mute then enter, found it on a site that has some good info
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post #195 of 258 Old 04-15-2005, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmccorm
Here are all the settings I took down from my KD-34XBR960 monitor before I began working on it. Hope this is helpful to someone. (Comparing codes/settings between models, making a more comprehensive spreadsheet, using this as your own starting point to record your settings, etc etc.)

I was in pro/1080i at the time. I'm pleased to say, thanks to KenTech, that I have also made significant geometry tweaks since then.

hmmm..think this will be alright on the 30xs955? And after doing those tweaks, was there a real noticable difference in quality compared to the standard settings?

thanks!
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post #196 of 258 Old 04-16-2005, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ColdFlo
For the time being I am still working on geometry and would like to ask DSperber. Do u have a number for your Japanese tech? U said he had a seminar? As in teaching? Is there anyway to learn from this guru? I dunno a long shot I guess but that guy sounds like the sheet. Also can u give any insight on these magnets and how they were used? And what does the mirror have to do with anything?
I sent you the technician's number via PM.

As far as his "seminar" reference, I got the impression it was more like a school he was attending rather than a class he was teaching. I'm also assuming it was a technical seminar, rather than an unrelated private or religious one.

The mirror is literally just that, to hold or position the front side of the TV somewhere so that as he stands behind the set playing around with magnet placement on the back of the picture tube he can see the on-screen effect of the magnet placement on the convergence or geometry. I had a hand-held mirror and I stood in front of the set holding it, but it was just too small for him and besides I didn't hold it absolutely stationary. So he's coming back with a larger (probably rectangular, wall-hanging size) mirror that we can put on a chair to get the right angle for him to see and which won't move around. But it's just a way he can be in two places at once as he fools with magnet placement.

The magnets are small, flat, and sort of square-shaped. They come mounted on one end of a small piece of Scotch tape or something similar. Several to a bag. He just holds one up against the back of the tube or around the electron guns and moves it around until he gets the desired deflection effect improvement, and once that happens satisfactorily he presses it down so that the tape sticks and the magnet is now in place "permanently".

It takes lots of these magnet placements to correct the multiple problems that appear all around the screen, and to offset the unintended negative effects of placing other magnets elsewhere. Requires patience and persistence in order to end up with a good result that produces (a) rectangular geometry throughout the entire 16x9 surfact, and (b) no convergence problem areas.

Remember, convergence errors can show up horizontally (on vertical lines) and vertically (on horizontal lines). You can get "glows" that appear red or blue or yellow (strangely for me there is no green, but rather only the blue/green mix that produces yellow) on either side of these lines. And they tend to get more curved and severe as you approach the edges of the picture tube. Even worse, the problems might be S-shaped, meaning that on one side of a line the convergence problem might be above the line while on the other side of the line it might be below the line. Very tough to address.

So trying to offset these electron beam deflection problems with a magnet is a very delicate job that may be solvable, or may not ever be perfect.
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post #197 of 258 Old 04-17-2005, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by awhitney
hmmm..think this will be alright on the 30xs955? And after doing those tweaks, was there a real noticable difference in quality compared to the standard settings?
Okay on the 30XS955? No idea. You'd be in uncharted territory if you try to adapt your 30XS955 with the settings from a 34XBR960. Uncharted territory is fine if you're an experimenter and you're willing to take some risk.

Was there a noticable picture quality difference after I tweaked the settings (to something different than factory/stock which is documented in the spreadsheet)? Absolutely. A huge difference in focus, geometry, and convergence on the left/right sides and corners. Slight convergence correction towards the middle. Good focus increase towards the middle.

What I probably should do, now that I'm happy with the changes, is to update the spreadsheet with the changes that I made. That'll at least help suggest things to be looking for when making those kinds of adjustments.

For material, I used the VE DVD, and I used the InDemand HD channel's INHD Tune Up, which is on every saturday morning (great program to record on your DVR).

EDIT: Typo/grammar.
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post #198 of 258 Old 04-17-2005, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmccorm
Okay on the 30XS955? No idea. You'd be in uncharted territory if you try to adapt your 30XS955 with the settings from a 34XBR960. Uncharted territory is fine if you're an experimenter and you're willing to take some risk.

Was there a noticable picture quality difference after I tweaked the settings (to something different than factory/stock which is documented in the spreadsheet)? Absolutely. An huge difference in focus, geometry, and convergence on the left/right sides and corners. Slight convergence correction towards the middle. Good focus increase towards the middle.

What I probably should do, now that I'm happy with the changes, is to update the spreadsheet with the changes that I made. That'll at least help suggest things to be looking for when making those kinds of adjustments.

For material, I used the VE DVD, and I used the InDemand HD channel's INHD Tune Up, which is on every saturday morning (great program to record on your DVR).
Oh ok, thanks for the response! :) Probably best not to try the settings, lol...hate to risk it.
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post #199 of 258 Old 04-17-2005, 06:55 PM
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Help!

I am working with
TV - Sony XBR960
DVD - NS775
Avia

Right now I am only focused on getting the video right.

I believe I did a good job walking through all the Avia basic vido calibrations - but I have two problems after going through the process.

Before I get to the problems - let me share my settings after the Avia tweaking
Mode - Pro
Picture - 32 the default
Brightness - 52 - much higher than the default
Color - 41 - a little higher than the default
Hue - 0 - the default
Sharpness - 38 - a little higher than the default
Color Axis to Monitor (not default)

By the way - I did all this tweaking with the DVD on its default settings. So I am not using any of those video enhancements on the DVD player like Cinema or Dynamic

OK - here are my problems

Problem 1 - Video too damn dark. I have been looking at both Master and Commander and Saving Private Ryan. In both movies there are way to many shadows on faces.

Problem 2 - It looks like the monitor has a small problem with overscan. The top at bottom bars are right at 5% - but the left and right bars are higher than 5%. Furthermore - the left bar is worse than the right bar.

Questions

How do I adress this issue with too many dark shadows withou destroying overall picture fidelity?

How do I even address the horizonantal overscan issue?

Thanks in advance.
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post #200 of 258 Old 04-17-2005, 09:22 PM
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Well first, I'm guessing every set is slightly different so the settings I've settled in on with my new XBR960 may well not be exactly right for yours nor for anybody else. Also, I used Digital Video Essentials DVD rather than Avia as my basis, although I'm sure the results should be the same no matter what the source of the test patterns.

Anyway, to get the raw comparisons out of the way (and again these are my values, which probably won't match those of others who've spent quite a bit of time tweaking there own sets to their liking), here are my values.

Input 5: DVD 480p
------------------------
Pro, picture 34, brightness 36, color 36, hue G1, sharpness minimum, color temp cool, clear edge VM off

Input 6: 1080i/720p (Comcast 6412, JVC 40K and JVC DT100U)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro, picture 35, brightness 32, color 32, hue 0, sharpness minimum, color temp cool, clear edge VM off

Input 1: DirecTV S-video 480i
--------------------------------------
Pro, picture 39, brightness 33, color 34, hue 0, sharpness 21, color temp cool, clear edge VM off

OTA ATSC tuner:
----------------------
Pro, picture 34, brightness 34, color 31, hue 0, sharpness minimum, color temp cool, clear edge VM off

i-Link: Comcast 6412, JVC 40K, JVC DT100U
-------------------------------------------------------
Pro, picture 34, brightness 31, color 31, hue 0, sharpness minimum, color temp cool, clear edge VM off


As far as adjusting horizontal/vertical overscan and centering, you have to get into the service menu. Assuming you have a proper test pattern being displayed from Avia, you navigate to either the 2170D-1 group for horizontal geometry (i.e. vertical size, centering, position, pincushion, bow, rotation/tilt, trapezoid, linearity, etc.) or the 2170D-2 group for vertical geometry (i.e. horizontal size, centering, pincushion, corner correction, vertical line angle, vertical line bow, etc.).

To get your left and right bars the same size, you'd probably use the horizontal positioning item (HPOS). You'll probably adjust several other horizontal items as well, to get the test pattern rectangular (especially in the corners) and the overscan correct.

You enter service mode from the remote with the TV powered off, by pressing display, 5, volume +, power in quick succession. You then use the 1 and 4 buttons to navigate forward and backward through the item list. When you get to an item and want to adjust it you use the 3 and 6 buttons. When you're satisfied with your adjustments you write the changes permanently into memory by pressing muting and then enter. When the red "WRITE" changes back to green "SERVICE" your changes have been written successfully and will last across power off.

You exit service mode simply by powering off. Obviously you can make as many changes as you want before deciding to write the whole set of changes permanently into memory (or not). You should write down the complete set of current service menu values (there are probably hundreds) before proceeding to change anything, as a failsafe fallback in case of disaster. Don't forget to make note of your changes as well.
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post #201 of 258 Old 04-17-2005, 10:44 PM
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DS thanks for the great ans; way more than I expected. A couple things about your last post I've seen allot of people in here suggest geometry changes to adjust the overscan, but I cant seem to get it to work right. I've used h and v pos and siz to no avail. Is there one of them that has the magic even with the siz difference it still has a fading black line before the end of the image. I've played with allot of the settings now and I think I have a pretty good feel for it,but as far as I can tell it doesn't look possible to change the overscan problem. Oh well, and for those of you who are a bit skittish, I don't know how to say this without sounding offensive.

I think that this forum is great and with anything like this u will never know if its going to hurt your system. That being said, I know Sony has done little to help me, and I think their phone customer support line and most the technicians they hire are full of sheet as anywhere else in this day and age. Look I don't know what u guys think is going on here as far as i can tell this forum here is mostly about business, and I think if anyone damaged their set we'd be the first to know. As far as I can tell most of these adjustments are fairly harmless. Maybe someone could tell us of horrors they've read around the site as I haven't been looking very long? I dunno about u guys , but I have had my ruler out for a few days and I check for sag in the display due to heat changes my effects have made.(Maybe thats just crazy) Anyway I don't think anyone here is foolhardy or a kid and that being said I would appreciate those preaching about go pay some ripoff artist 300 or don't ever enter your service mode to please keep their comments to themselves. Thank you.

Technicians are people that are adventuresome. They oc their pc a little(sometimes allot, I'm not one of them). They take some risks. I think u have to to tweak, but within some guidelines, and I do this by a strict system of navigating and altering my service mode and keeping good records. If u can't handle that don't tell us. There is a way to judge the difference between the models based on another's settings,but that is because each of these variables were designed to be used. Engineers design tolerances, and by judging who they certify those tolerances must be fairly wide. If u don't have a computer I can see how messing with the hz might be something a noob might do, but I think everyone here has read about those sorts of things. If not heres a good page myweb.accessus.net/~090/toc.html also download and read about a program called power strip, but beware read before u play with it. Ok I'm going to shutup about this now and I will never speak on this again.
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post #202 of 258 Old 04-18-2005, 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by blackngold75
2 questions/problems: The lower left-hand corner of my screen sort of bends inward a little bit. I also have discoloration near that area - it looks green when the background is red. Anyone know if this is something serviceable?
That sounds suspiciously like you have a magnetic field near that corner of the screen.
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post #203 of 258 Old 04-18-2005, 07:58 AM
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That sounds suspiciously like you have a magnetic field near that corner of the screen.
The TV sits next to a cabinet that has a VCR and DVD player nearby. But not exactly at that spot. Could the VCR generate a magnetic field that could affect the TV like that? I may try moving it to see if there is any impact.
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post #204 of 258 Old 04-18-2005, 12:53 PM
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ANNOUNCEMENT

I have posted a series of articles I wrote on making sense of the Sony service codes, plus a few valuable documents. They are in a separate thread parallel to this one, entitled "The Sony Service Codes - Articles, Comments, Discoveries."

These will be added to as I find the time, and revised as corrections come to my attention. Please comment! Add your own articles.

Subjects I want to cover soon: Sony's "Dynamic Contrast" feature, getting perfect grayscale by fudging gamma settings, and different articles on picture characteristics and decoding parameters (the very important 2170P-3 and MID5 tables).

And for those who have a memory-stick (MS) slot, I can post a few wonderful test patterns that are more revealing than what you can read from DVD. (For 4:3 TVs, the resolution is exactly 1440 X 1080 pixels; for 16:9, 1920 X 1440. If you create test patterns in, say, Photoshop of these exact resolutions, then save as highest-quality jpg files, they will be displayed *exactly* without any resampling. What a boon for precise focusing! Believe me, MS-mode is very, very good. Beware - has its own color settings.)

I haven't yet figured out the exact resolution for jpeg-on-CD, as my DVD player doesn't like large-ish jpg files. I was going to try 720 X 480 and 720 X 576 to see which "locked" in, but I can't get the test images that would establish this to show. Hmpf! I'll post a test pattern to see if someone else can get this to fly.

Positive rant: I truly believe my 36XS955 is better than almost any signal I can throw at it, and getting at least a couple of the picture modes to be really transparent is one of my goals. Those who complain of fuzzy or dark pictures are either suffering with inferior video-signal quality or need a little tinkering in service mode! The fine-pitch sets are *not* dark, as some have claimed; mine is easily made to be uncomfortably bright. Sony's true 960i line-doubling scheme is marvelous in that it makes SD material only look better.

But my factory setup was awful: Sub-brightness was so low that the Brightness slider had to be pushed up to near 50 to get a normal black level on good material in Pro mode. (SBRT was 16 out of the box! Most sets start out at 31-plus. I eventually ended up with SBRT = 38 for perfect PLUGE and a Brightness-slider setting if 31. Perfect!)

I'll post some of my absolute settings soon. They may be of some help to someone.

KenTech
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post #205 of 258 Old 04-18-2005, 02:07 PM
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Sony's true 960i line-doubling scheme is marvelous in that it makes SD material only look better.
Aha! I think this may be the answer to the question I've been asking ever since I got my XBR960, namely why does SD (from S-video) look so different on this set than on any other set I've ever owned (including the Sampo it replaced).

As an example, I always used to think that the onscreen graphic from my JVC VCR's which graphically shows tape progress and has a "B" at the left and "E" on the right (for beginning and end) was inferior quality because the left "B" actually looked like the digit "8". Well, on the XBR960 this character now is clearly seen as a "B", with a flat vertical left-edge.

Similarly, all other graphics and onscreen text is similarly much clearer and much smoother than on my other sets (including two other SD Sony XBR models) as well as the adjacent Mits 35 which I can compare side-by-side to the XBR960 for SD content.

But I did notice a sort of MPEG-artifacting (smoothing, sort of like digital-processing) look to the picture. I couldn't figure out why it did not look purely "pass-through" from my D* or OTA S-video sources.

However I wasn't aware there was a built-in line-doubling going on. I'm sure this would explain the image I'm seeing which mostly is superior but still takes getting used to, as it looks strangely unreal (i.e. digitally processed) and is also VERY susceptible to being ruined by too low a sharpness setting.
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post #206 of 258 Old 04-18-2005, 03:40 PM
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<snip> But I did notice a sort of MPEG-artifacting (smoothing, sort of like digital-processing) look to the picture. I couldn't figure out why it did not look purely "pass-through" from my D* or OTA S-video sources.

However I wasn't aware there was a built-in line-doubling going on. I'm sure this would explain the image I'm seeing which mostly is superior but still takes getting used to, as it looks strangely unreal (i.e. digitally processed) and is also VERY susceptible to being ruined by too low a sharpness setting.
I know what you mean by the artifacts. I assume that, since this TV doesn't have infinite computing power, it takes a finite time for the interpolation to "lock in." And so, when a stable image moves across the screen (a panned tripod shot, for example), it sort of falls apart until it stops moving. Then bang! it's sharp as a tack, and those interpolated lines look like they really belong! Other sets I've seen at retail shops in the last year or so can't touch it. By the time my eyes figure out what they're looking at, it's razor-sharp.

My normal SD viewing distance is where if I hold out my arm in front of me with little finger and thumb outstretched to the max, that's about the picture's diagonal. Or maybe a little closer. For good DVD and certainly HD I can sit a *lot* closer (the TV's on a dolly). I never see these artifacts unless I happen to be up-close in SD mode. On my analog cable, SD quality varies all over the place, with variable and tinted black levels, yellow skin, oversharpened video (local), mushy video (Travel Channel), and sometimes nearly-perfect video (History Channel much of the time + some local). Garbage in = garbage out with this set. Some of the HD material is not well-produced, either, with sharpening artifacts, green shadows, and nasty blown-out highlights. But then there's the good stuff . . .

Bottom line is that *everything* is displayed at 1080i or 960i (and maybe 960p, I'm not sure). The upsampling of 480i to 960 is, therefore, exactly 2:1 and not some oddball ratio. I think some sets just try to upsample everything to 1080 or 720, and leave it at that.

ABC's 720-line HD programming looks great even though it's upsampled to 1080. Who am I to complain? Am I concerned that Mike's chin-stubble on Desperate Housewives is less than perfectly reproduced? Not at all. I'm more impressed by the color purity and brightness range of digital TV than whether I'm dropping a vertical line or two. Now if they would just get the volume of the commercials under control . . . (SteadySound is awful!)

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post #207 of 258 Old 04-18-2005, 06:53 PM
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Alright!!!,
This thread just keeps getting better. Hey Ken u said u have some cool jpegs? I can't wait to get my hands on those. Why do u say u think its best to do them via memory stick? Aren't those things kinda pricey?(48 bucks on 256 looks like the best low end deal). I'll probably get one when I get a PSP down the road because I heard u can put movies on the 1 gig sticks. Is it possible to just view them on the pc? In photoshop full mode or another program? I have a pretty nice htpc and a very nice card. In fact I think I'll be using this TV more for pc than TV(been getting bored of my programming(saving up for dreambox eheheheheheh)), and I'd like to tune it more for that purpose for now and then work down from there. So if u have any clues on using it straight from pc I'd appreciate it.

Oh and on the sub brightness, I don't really know what u mean by that term but as a point of debate do u think it might create more screen burn and then shorter life? I'm sort of a cheapskate now(I guess I'm aging), and that's why I use pro mode and keep the room dark. I'd like to see it tho first before I say anything final, but it sounds interesting. Also I have a very good and interesting article I'd like u to read about grey scale and contrast. Maybe, I'm just stupid here once again, and would appreciate a correction, but this article just said allot of things to me and seems on topic.

www*firingsquad*com/hardware/budget_lcd_roundup_0405/page4.asp
Sorry, I can't post urls.

Actually its just a portion of an article, but tell me if that makes any sense. Colorimetry looks good too maybe this can help some of the stupids(hehe) such as myself. Oh I also have read that the boards of the TV are the most expensive part, and I sure wish they had 3rd party for those things. It would be nice to be able to pop in more power and or a 1080p board sure would make upgrades easier, heh. Anyway, once again everyone, thank you for your time.
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post #208 of 258 Old 04-19-2005, 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by KenTech
IBottom line is that *everything* is displayed at 1080i or 960i (and maybe 960p, I'm not sure). ABC's 720-line HD programming looks great even though it's upsampled to 1080.
Are you sure 720p is not displayed native 720p on the XBR960? I'm not convinced it's upconverted to 1080i.

For HD inputs (e.g. INPUT 6 for me, which is my 1080i/720p component video input via Zektor for my 6412, JVC 40K and JVC DT100U) the DISPLAY button shows the resolution in the upper right corner of the screen, and ABC is definitely showing 720p when I play back D-VHS recordings (which record at true resolution and play back the same way, per my settings).

Further proof is that the onscreen display from the D-VHS boxes is definitely presented in two physical sizes, depending on whether the program being played is 1080i or 720p. And that's the way it shows.
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post #209 of 258 Old 04-19-2005, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DSperber
Are you sure 720p is not displayed native 720p on the XBR960? I'm not convinced it's upconverted to 1080i.
I was basing it on the XBR960 having the same controller as the XS955, but you can check for sure:

(1) Go into service mode and tune in ABC or another *known* 720 source. (Use the up-down channel buttons.) In the SM readout, the lower-right indication is the input video mode, and in the center is displayed the actual display mode. It should say "720p" in the lower-right, but I bet you'll see "1080i" in the center.

(3) Or you can go to 2170P-4 #26 or 20, IDSW, and force different scan modes (as indicated on-screen in the center callout). If any of them are 720, you've got it. But I'll bet the design is similar to mine.

If you discover a true 720 scan mode in your set, by all means tell us!

KenTech
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post #210 of 258 Old 04-20-2005, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by KenTech
I(1) Go into service mode and tune in ABC or another *known* 720 source. (Use the up-down channel buttons.) In the SM readout, the lower-right indication is the input video mode, and in the center is displayed the actual display mode. It should say "720p" in the lower-right, but I bet you'll see "1080i" in the center.
don't know what you're looking for in "the center". There is no second resolution item in the displayed fields of the service menu for the XBR960.

Yes, it shows "720p" in the lower right, matching the 720p which shows onscreen when I press the DISPLAY button.

But there's no other resolution information shown "in the center". All that is shown is the screen mode (e.g. FULL, E ZOOM, ZOOM H, ZOOM V).

Underneath the screen mode is an item named "WSL" with values that seem to change dynamicaly depending on picture content at the moment.

No "1080i" or "720p" or anything similar in the center.

I'm still pretty convinced the XBR960 displays 720p native.
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