THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 11 - AVS Forum
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Old 07-23-2005, 04:14 PM
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Now I've got a real problem. While working on grayscale in the service menu, I had a white field (Avia) up for a while (no longer than 8 minutes), and now I have a small green patch in the corner - screen burn. Bear in mind that my contrast was just over the midpoint. I thought I could get away with a solid white field a lot longer than 8 minutes given that I had already set contrast to a decent level (definitely not torch mode), but evidently not. The good news is that it is a small patch in the corner and is only easily viewed when that part of the screen is bright, but it's not good. Is there any hope that it will go away over time?

Question for Glen. I want to try using a photo grey card to set my grayscale. What intensity of white should I use (100ire, 90ire, etc.) when trying to get the whiteness of the screen to match the whiteness of the white side of the card?

Finally, Ken, thanks for the answer on exiting the service menu.

-Reagan

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Old 07-23-2005, 05:19 PM
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Full white screens do not cause spot burns on the screen.

For calibration, 70 IRE to 80 IRE works well for xDRV and 20 IRE to 30 IRE works well for xCUT. The level of light should be adjusted so the card has about the same luminance as the screen. Depending on the luminance of your 6500K light source, the gray side of the card might match the 70 IRE screen. Remember you are trying to see any minute color difference in the two. If the screen looks slightly red, then reduce RDRV/CUT as needed. If you remember the CIE Chromaticity chart in post #97, you will note that Red moves horizontally, Green moves vertically and Blue moves diagonally. If you can imagine D65 as the center and 3 lines from there to the 3 phosphor colors (a clock at 3h:00m:40s). This means, if you add blue, you are doing the same as a little minus Red and Green. You will need to ping-pong between high and low IRE until both are at the desired temp. You will also need to put up a ramp or stair step pattern to check the entire range. If any step looks off, go back and adjust more.

One reason many people choose to have this done by an ISF Calibrator is that within a few hours, they can be done with it and sit back and enjoy watching their investment. I know that most of you, experimenting with this, have spent enough time that they could have watched a dozen movies. I know, when I decide to tweak or recalibrate my own TV, I may spend 4-6 hours working on it, and I have done it more than once.

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Old 07-23-2005, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Full white screens do not cause spot burns on the screen.

No, but two other things are likely to happen: ("Burn" probably isn't the right word.)

(1) There is a brightness limiter in the video-signal chain that works on the *average* brightness of the screen. Example: On the DVE DVD, there is a series of increasing full-screen grays, right up to 100%. But your Sony XBR or XS-CRT TV won't get any brighter on the last two or three patterns. Only a much smaller area will display a 100% (white) input as brilliant white. The problem? Who knows where this modification of the video signal takes place? I would guess it's late in the chain, but is it before or after the xCUT and xDRV controls? So I would calibrate on only a small white block somewhere on the tube face.

And where you place this block matters because no place on the tube face is guaranteed to be perfect in purity. Which brings up what is likely Reagan's problem. . .

(2) High-brightness images, especially test patterns, cause slight misalignment or warping of the aperture-grille wires, and there's no predicting the pattern. If I put up a bright-white screen or just a b/w movie with a big sky, green-cyan patches develop at the lower-right edge and also just left of center. If I change, say, from 100% to 20% gray full-screen, they're still visible for a few seconds, but fade away. The sudden appearance of a 50% gray pattern on the screen shows almost no color patches at all, and normal TV viewing rarely reveals these problems.

I have read -- and a Sony tech has explained -- roughly the same thing: mix together Big Tube, super-fine phosphor pitch, and bright image, and you are pushing the limits of current manufacturing technology to hold everything in place through such large temperature swings.

Some day I'll examine the left-of-center purity issue, but if Glen were calibrating my TV I would have to specify *where* I want the calibrator stuck to the screen and caution him about the heating and brightness-limiting issues, in case he wasn't familiar with them for this TV.

For Reagan: Some have said that grille-warping can be permament. I can't say; my issues were there from Day One. If the CRT has truly changed in a way you can't adjust away, have it declared defective and replaced. Some have posted about such a problem and have had their tubes successfully replaced by Sony. (I think the 40" monster had *big* issues like this.) Or you may be able to adjust it away with the LANDING settings. Maybe this is just a break-in issue, not a damage issue, and if you make it go away with a readjustment of the first 6 codes in LANDING, it will be stable form now on -- or at least predictable.

Write down everything first for all LANDING settings, then set LT thru RB (the corners) to 127. Try every combination of nos. 4, 5, and 6 (EWSP thru TESW), and maybe 8 and 9 too, to get the most-even screen for NOT a bright white but something more reasonable, like 40-50 IRE. Then adjust 0 thru 3 for the four corners (left-top, left-bottom, etc.). Be sure to do this with the TV in its normal viewing alignment (north, east, etc.). Do NOT stare at the screen, but keep your eyes moving, as they quickly accommodate to any color unevenness, and you'll think the colors have evened out, when they haven't.

Fair warning, Glen, if you put up a bright stair-step pattern or anything like it on *this* TV, it's color will drift within a few seconds. I confirm my color-setup judgements based on the very transient display of a pattern or on constantly-moving real B/W images, which tend not to heat the grille in any one place to a significant degree.

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Old 07-23-2005, 08:26 PM
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With a CRT device, direct view, rear projection and front projection, they need to be calibrated in the center of the screen. Because these are 3-gun devices, all three colors cannot emanate from the same point. Green is in the center flanked by Red and Blue. One side of the screen will favor red and the other blue. They all do it. On the higher end of the scale, my Marquee projector has R, G & B zone color gain controls to compensate for this and projection angles.

I have seen the white clipping you are talking about, while calibrating a 960. I noticed it in the gamma graph noticing that after 70 IRE the curve started to flatten. Reducing the contrast helped normalize the curve. This was noticed with the white window patterns, not full fields. While this TV is capable of higher lumens, it is only at the sacrifice of picture quality. Having contrast set too high can also be very fatiguing to watch in low ambient lighting situations. A good check for contrast setting is to closely look for the scan-lines and set contrast just below the point they start to change width. This is easiest on a 480i signal.

As I have stated before, I set the color temp, then review the temperature readings by x/y coordinates for 10 IRE to 100 IRE using window test patterns. Once I am satisfied, I cycle through numerous test patterns verifying uniformity, none are really displayed for more than a few seconds.

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Old 07-23-2005, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

I have seen the white clipping you are talking about, while calibrating a 960. I noticed it in the gamma graph noticing that after 70 IRE the curve started to flatten.

It's not white clipping, since a small portion of the screen can reach 100% (white) easily. Further, it isn't the whites that are clipped; rather it is the whole picture that is reduced in "contrast," as if you have turned down the Picture slider. The relative tonalities are preserved. When 100% is reduced to 70, 50 is reduced to 35, etc.

There *is* real white clipping available in service mode, but in Pro mode it is set to off. White clipping is the limiting of brightness wherever it occurs and for whatever area, even small specular highlights. There is also a dynamic brightness/contrast (pick your term) system in these sets, active in Vivid and Standard, off in Pro, also controllable in service mode.

The brightness-response curve of these sets simply cannot be measured with a full-screen brightness pattern because it improperly forces the CRT beam-current limiter to activate (which is what I think it really is). Bottom line: You get a "clipped" curve if the pattern is full-screen, but an accurate curve if only a small white/gray box is used.

If you turned down the brightness on that 960 to keep out of the beam-current limiter's domain, you set up the set much too dim, much dimmer than it is capable of with good focus and color fidelity on real-world video. Excepting a few commercials, animations, and rare snow shots, real-world programming rarely hits the limiter, and you shouldn't attempt to avoid it in calibration. It also activates so quickly, the viewer is generally unaware of its action. Just let it do its work when it must to protect the CRT. Set up the video response as if it's not there.

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Old 07-24-2005, 01:43 AM
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Technicalities againcrushing, clipping, roll-off, whatever, I should have written a paragraph describing the reduction in the lumen delta from one IRE step to the next to avoid using a wrong label.

When you have Picture/Contrast set too high, the TV starts to crush the whites (I mean reduce the difference in lumens from one step to the next). The difference in lumens from 80 IRE to 81 IRE to 82 IRE .to 100 IRE for each step falls off from the trend. What I mean is, when the gamma is approx 2.1 from 10 IRE to 70 IRE then falls to 1.8 @ 80 IRE and 1.6 @ 90 IRE, contrast (not brightness) is too high. Clipping of whites starts when lumen delta between 90 IRE and 100 IRE decreases from the average. Clipping can be as severe as not being able to distinguish any lumen difference between 80, 90 & 100 IRE. TVs with different gamma curves will have different steps/spacing between IRE levels. Reducing contrast to the point of achieving a uniform gamma curve is not setting it too dim (you are not reading all I wrote, again. This is being done with a WINDOW pattern not a full screen.), it is just properly setting it.

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It's not white clipping, since a small portion of the screen can reach 100% (white) easily. Further, it isn't the whites that are clipped; rather it is the whole picture that is reduced in "contrast," as if you have turned down the Picture slider. The relative tonalities are preserved. When 100% is reduced to 70, 50 is reduced to 35, etc.
(edited)

What are you talking about? The input signal has not changed. A 100% signal is a 100% signal or a 100 IRE signal, sure all input devices may have a slightly different voltage than the absolute standard, but it is still sending its' 100%/IRE signal. When you reduce the lumens, you are not changing the signal or IRE level. There is no standard for that says, 100%/IRE = x lumens. Every TV on the planet has a different lumen level for a 100 IRE signal.

All displays with a point light source (CRT DV F/R projection, LCD, DLP, LcoS etc. F/R projection) have more lumens in the center of the screen. I haven't measured the 960, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a 200% difference or more from the center to the corners. By this I mean, if you have 55 ft-lamberts in the center of a white field, you may only have 27.5 ft-lamberts or less in the corners. The 27.5 ft-lamberts in the corners may be the same as a 70 IRE field is in the center. This has nothing to do with any kind of internal limiting. Additionally, as I recall, one of the main differences in the different modes for luminance is the gamma curve selected for each.

As you increase contrast, you start stretching the curve upward. All TVs have a maximum lumen output and it will not be the same on all TVs, even those of the same model number. There are just electronic variances. All TVs have a maximum point where you start to loose scan-line detail and rarely is it where the maximum lumen output is. Many TVs have an adjustable threshold so you can't over drive contrast.

Ken, you personally, may choose to over drive your contrast a little, that is your prerogative, however to properly calibrate a display, to industry standards/guidelines, that would not be the right choice. High lumens with high contrast in a dimly lit room can be very uncomfortable to watch.

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Old 07-24-2005, 07:05 AM
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Glen and Ken,

Thanks for the advice. My Sony (HS 420) is over a year old (I bought the first one that showed up around here), so there's no returning it. I really do appreciate the advice. And Glen, regarding your point about an ISF calibration, I'd gladly do it if you're ever in the area. The problem is that no one is in my area. The closest ones are in Nashville and at least one of them will only do it for TVs sold in their store.

I'll be putting your recommendations to good use.

Thanks again,
Reagan

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Old 07-24-2005, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

What are you talking about?

I have re-edited my posts above to eliminate the term "IRE." I used it above in the sense "the brightness on-screen that corresponds to" or "what 50 IRE should look like," when I know it should strictly refer only to a specific input voltage. I guess I thought the context made it plain.

Since "IRE" and "input voltages" are probably technobabble to most readers, I'll try to avoid those terms; instead I'll say "a video level that should produce 50% on-screen," which is really what I mean, rather than "50IRE." The distinction I am trying to make is between what an *ideal* TV should display (or what one thinks it's displaying) and what actually happens.

From Reagan's post, it seems he is using full-screen patterns when he refers to "solid white field." And so I wanted to make the point, at the very least, that this TV chassis, in whatever its manifestation, can't handle that and has an excellent self-protection mechanism that works on the *average* brightness of the entire screen.

Please re-read my edited posts above, and you may wish to alter yours a bit, too.

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Old 07-24-2005, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

you personally, may choose to over drive your contrast a little, that is your prerogative, however to properly calibrate a display, to industry standards/guidelines, that would not be the right choice.

I understand guidelines for things such as white point = 6500K. But how can there be an "industry standard" for screen brightness when the choice should be made at the time and conditions of viewing based on room illumination and source material? (Assuming that for *my* TV, I am not overdriving the video channel so whites are crushed. BTW, for this TV chassis, that limit seems very much higher than I have ever witnessed, even momentarily.)
Quote:


High lumens with high contrast in a dimly lit room can be very uncomfortable to watch.

Well, duh. So you turn down the Picture control. The human should control the TV, and not the other way around, no?

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Old 07-24-2005, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Since "white-clip" is an issue with these CRT TVs, I will define my terms I'll use as I write about this. There seem to be three different mechanisms in this series of CRT-TVs by which brightness of white is *intentionally* limited. Fortunately two of these (the most obnoxious) are set to *no effect* for the Pro mode, but there is that overall brightness limiter for which there seem to be no controls in service mode (just as well, for the protection of the tube).

(1) "Clipping" is an engineering term, well-defined. If you snip (clip) off the tops of an electrical signal where it goes very high, *that* is clipping. It happens in an audio amplifier when the instantaneous voltage demanded of it exceeds the available power voltage, and the waveform is neatly "clipped" at the tops of the waveform. In a video-processing chain, you would see evidence of it with a grayscale test pattern: the "whites" all run together. The THX setup patterns on "Monsters, Inc" and other DVDs will reveal it. On a football player's white helmet, the sunlight reflections won't be visible at all; the helmet is just a white blob. Some TVs and DVD players won't display "blacker than black," either, which is effectively black clipping. Not a problem with this Sony series.

Clipping can be "soft" so the limit is reached more gently, rather than a brick wall. This could be true of inadequately-designed video amplifiers in a TV, causing poor separation of highlights, rather than just cutting them off. Bright objects lose their texture, and light-colored faces become pasty. Very ugly! (The informal term "white crush" describes all of these visual effects.) Perhaps this is a characteristic of these Sony TVs if you crank up brightness far enough, but I haven't found a point where this happens; over an immense picture-brightness range, highlight contrast seems correct in context -- a far cry from lower-class TVs *and* from Sony's models from 10-20 years ago.

Important: Clipping is *instantaneous* right where the scanning beam happens to be at that instant. The pattern/picture being displayed has no bearing on it, except in its intensity at that point on the screen.

I know for sure of at least one optional clipping setting in service mode: 2170P-2 #4/YLMT. If set to 3, it appears to have no discernable effect. As its value is reduced, extreme whites are clipped, as described above. The data charts show default=3, and my set was set to 3. So it's an unused "feature"; may it remain so.

(2) Overall brightness limiting is built-in, likely to protect the CRT and its associated high-voltage power supply from excessive current thrown at the screen. (Yes, the three electron beams streaming at the face of the tube constitute an electrical current.) I have to trust that Sony designers have determined a "safe" maximum value for this current. Too much current draw from the power supply, and the high voltage for the CRT will drop, causing ugly bloating and dimming of the picture. Heating of the CRT's aperture grille causes (usually temporary) warping and off-color blotches on the screen. The protection seems to be the last thing in the chain: You can crank up xDRV for each of the guns all you want, but there is an *average* for the whole screen that can't be exceeded.

You should *not* wish for this to go away. The action occurs so quickly that it is almost imperceptible, and the contrast-integrity of the picture is conserved: nothing is clipped. It's like an almost-instantaneous temporary decrease in the Picture-slider setting. If you are watching something that triggers it so it bothers you, such as a bright, animated kids show, turn down Picture until you don't see it. (Bet your kids won't see it!) Indeed, I am thankful that those bright-white commercials are dimmed!

When calibrating the TV, a small "window" of various levels of gray (NOT full screen) has to be displayed to guarantee that this protection device isn't inadvertently triggered.

(3) A slow-acting (over a few seconds) modification of the picture contrast and brightness (including black level) is offered by these sets as a processing *option,* controlled by service-mode codes 2170P-4/BLK thru DSBO. If BLK is set to 0, and the following three codes are set to 0-0-7, this effect is turned off completely, normal for Pro mode. The sudden appearance of a bright object will not depress the black level, and there will be no manipulation of the contrast. I tried to document this, as best I could, in article #06, post #7 in this thread. I should think that no video perfectionist wants any part of this! It is normally selectively in effect for all but Pro mode. I've killed it for *all* modes.

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Old 07-24-2005, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Because these are 3-gun devices, all three colors cannot emanate from the same point. Green is in the center flanked by Red and Blue. One side of the screen will favor red and the other blue.

This seems quite relevant for projection systems. But in my years of calibrating or just informally setting up many aperture-grille CRT monitors from Sony and Mitsubishi, plus my own several inline-RGB CRT sets, I have never observed this, no have my fussiest clients. Surely the *proportion* of the total distance from the three guns to the screen represented by their physical separation is much smaller than in a typical three-source rear-projection system.

Since my slight color-contamination blotch left of center does not continue to the edge, and there are a colony of magnets growing on the back of the tube, aligned with the blotch, I wonder if it's just a purity setup gone awry. (That's what a tech thought, but he warned me of the interactions of these magnets with convergence, and *that* seems really fine in that area.) I'm temped to accept it as-is for now.

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Old 07-24-2005, 12:29 PM
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There are industry standards for most anything. As far as it pertains to movies, there are some guidelines as it pertains to screen lumens and viewer comfort. This is addressed in most every theater in the country. When is the last time you went to the theater and came out with a headache because the picture was way too bright?

Ken, what you don't seem to see is, the target goal of a calibration, ISF or not, is to achieve the optimum image for the viewing condition without compromise. Since all video displays are not perfect and do not calibrate perfectly we have to settle with what we get. The calibration settings are usually based on standards and the desired elimination of as many artifacts as possible. These standards may be; color temp = 6500K; gamma = 2.2 and the artifacts can be edge enhancement, blooming, color shift, crushing/clipping (black or white) room conditions, or anything that adversely affects picture quality.

When you choose to deviate from optimum settings that is your choice, but the goal/result of a complete ISF calibration should be to optimize for all viewing, including bright snow scenes, no matter how frequently or if they are watched.

If you set contrast to the point the scan-lines start to grow or blend together, you are starting to induce artifacts into the picture. Yes, you may want it to produce more lumens, but there is a resulting reduction in picture quality. For night viewing there will need to be different settings from Day viewing. If you have contrast set to the point of maximum lumens (without the loss of any detail or color shifting) and brightness set to see the dark detail in a lit room or daytime viewing condition, Contrast and Brightness controls will be set too high for proper night viewing. ISF calibrations try to include Day and Night viewing settings when available. The new TVs with the ISFccc (Custom Calibration Configuration) have separate Day and Night calibration modes available for each input.

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Old 07-24-2005, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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There are industry standards for most anything.

Sort of a Big Brother argument, wouldn't you say? I see the tone of your post as (simplified) (1) for any condition, there is only one *right* setting; (2) only an ISF tech knows what that is; (3) the user/owner of the TV should keep his bloody hands off the remote, as *we* have determined the "proper" brightness; (4) since, after all, the user is either too stupid or ignorant to adjust the brightness himself; and (5) having convinced folks of at least points 1-3, you sell them the service. And again when things change.

Many of the calibrations offered by ISF and other competent calibration are worth their weight in gold, white point and grayscale linearity being among them. But, aside from dogmatically insisting on it, you have never defended, for example, the notion that there is "one" correct (overall, picture) brightness. The ISF position seems to be oblivious to the vast variation in source material and that there are more viewing conditions than "day" and "night" and that the user can easily correct any deficiencies with the remote and the user menu. If the user does not perceive a problem that needs fixing wiith the remote, then what possible value could brightness calibration be, except its dubious distinction as a bragging point. My solution: teach the user how to be sensitive to the finer "perfectionist" points of video display and how to correctly adjust their TV after the *basics* have been set up to obvious standards. Even the most basic -- white point, grayscale, color decoding, black point -- can be well set up without spending big $$ on technical services.

Everything I post in this thread is designed to educate folks to the best of my ability so that *they* can control their TV, if they choose to do so. Information is power. The "do as you're told" undercurrent I see in threads discussing the ISF calibratiion business is antithetical to what I believe in, and so you'll find me unsympathetic. I am writing for folks who, like me, want to get involved making their own corrections to their TVs in service mode, or who want to learn more about what's possible, even if they're reluctant to try. Others? Well, read Q of Banditz' thread for a glowing account of what I would hope for from any tech, ISF or not, that gets anywhere near my TV!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561596

I'd pay this guy just to rip all of the magnets off my tube and get purity and static convergence done right for once -- and do an initial white and grayscale setup, all at a fair price. Sorta depends on the guy doing it, right? That's what referrals are for.

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Old 07-24-2005, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

If you set contrast to the point the scan-lines start to grow or blend together, you are starting to induce artifacts into the picture. Yes, you may want it to produce more lumens, but there is a resulting reduction in picture quality.

But what (picture) brightness you can achieve with no *significant* decrease in quality depends on how the original focusing was accomplished. Fine scan-lines are not the goal, but a well-controlled spot size for the expected brightness range. (The spot should be a vertical oval in the center, changing to different-shaped ovals everywhere else.)

Articles 13a abd 13b describe how to accomplish decent focus, using Sony's own sequence of adjsutments. If the test pattern is bright enough (see article), the resulting focus holds over a vast brightness range. If the set is focused for low-brightness detail, the scanning spot will tend to "bloom" excessively in the brighter areas of the picture, smearing fine detail, such as tree branches against sky. Good focusing procedure results in very little image-quality compromise up to fairly high-brightness levels.

Note that most of the high-brightness bits in typical video scenes are not vast areas but small details, such as specular highlights, that add authenticity to a scene. Even if those small areas have smeared detail, it is of virtually no significance; the user can always judge for themselves, and turn Picture down if there's a problem. Otherwise those small bright bits make the video truly exciting and three-dimensional!

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Old 07-24-2005, 04:24 PM
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I see the tone of your post as (simplified) (1) for any condition, there is only one *right* setting; (2) only an ISF tech knows what that is; (3) the user/owner of the TV should keep his bloody hands off the remote, as *we* have determined the "proper" brightness; (4) since, after all, the user is either too stupid or ignorant to adjust the brightness himself; and (5) having convinced folks of at least points 1-3, you sell them the service. And again when things change.

How wrong and bias can you get?
  1. There is an optimal/desired target
  2. Only? NO, they should know what to look for and how to achieve it. It's not rocket science, anyone can learn what to look for.
  3. Of the millions of TV viewers, few can properly set the user controls. If they don't understand or know what to look for, then not changing the controls may be good advice. Do you let your friends or neighbors cange your settings?
  4. "Stupid" and "ignorant", is referring to others that may not understand or want to learn the adjustments and their affect is stupid and ignorant on your part.
  5. Not wanting to learn, understand or deal with the time and effort to calibrate their own TV is the way many people are. Some, then choose to have it done by an ISF Calibrator, some don't do anything and the majority have no idea that their TV picture can be improved. I have done calibrations where the customer tried Avia or DVE and just couldn't get it right. They just didn't understand what to look for and have never seen a calibrated or reference display. I show/teach them during the calibration.

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Many of the calibrations offered by ISF and other competent calibration are worth their weight in gold, white point and grayscale linearity being among them. But, aside from dogmatically insisting on it, you have never defended, for example, the notion that there is "one" correct (overall, picture) brightness.

You still haven't got a grasp of the concept here. There are numerous settings that all interact with an optimal picture for the existing/targeted viewing conditions. What I am saying about the contrast setting and luminance is; there is a point where individual scan-lines start to loose their detail. It can be described as the line is starting to get fuzzy. At that point, contrast has gone too far. Sure you may get more light output, but you are loosing picture detail. If you choose to do so, then it's your choice, not the best/only one for everyone.

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The ISF position seems to be oblivious to the vast variation in source material and that there are more viewing conditions than "day" and "night" and that the user can easily correct any deficiencies with the remote and the user menu. If the user does not perceive a problem that needs fixing wiith the remote, then what possible value could brightness calibration be, except its dubious distinction as a bragging point.

Is this just another attack childish attack on ISF? Variations in source material is unpredictable and you can't tell if it is intentional. If a calibration is done to accommodate the users major viewing conditions they are usually happy. What you don't seem to understand is the number of people willing to learn and adjust their own TVs is miniscule, the population that knows there is a need to adjust the TV is slightly larger than that. Most consumers want ONE button. They want to turn it on and watch it, they don't even want to change viewing modes let alone adjust Brightness and Contrast for each program.

My only objection is your insisting position that your calibration method is the only valid solution to a calibration. Because you don't want to spend $5K on a color analyzer and think your eye is just as good doesn't mean that the members of the forum have to agree, or are willing to try. If the intent of this thread and all of the threads in this forum is to help inform and educate those that are interested in learning, then attacking others and insisting your method is right and the only way to proceed, greatly reduces your credibility.

Throughout this thread I have tried to explain the approach I use to achieve specific and/or desired results. I have even given recommendations on DIY techniques and procedures and never tried to solicit business. I have provided detailed color temperature calibration techniques to help the readers better understand the concept. I have also tried to explain why adherence to certain standards is necessary when providing others with calibration services. You will most likely never agree that there is any other method to properly calibrate a video display than yours, and I am sorry for that. It tells me you are not open to any suggestions, and your attacks on me and ISF calibrations in general, show it. I have stated I think it is difficult for anyone to use clouds to accurately set white balance, but I didn't say it was wrong or couldn't be an alternative DIY option. I gave optical comparator methods for those without clouds, which you even attacked because of the accuracy of 6500K light sources, and you really attacked the x/y coordinate method of accurately setting color temperature to D65 with a color analyzer.

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Old 07-24-2005, 04:58 PM
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Reagan,

Your green spot may just be the result of some magnetic buildup in that area of the screen. Speakers and other nearby electronic equipment or fields could be the cause. I get spots like that from time to time as well, and usually they go away after the screen has been degaussed a few times, and/or a few components are shuffled around, or the TV is moved to a different location or orientation.

The TV will automatically degauss itself every time you turn it on. It's not a good idea to turn the TV off and on repeatedly in a short space of time though. So you're probably best just letting the degaussing take its course through normal use, or at least giving it about half hour to cool off before powering it on again.

See this link for more: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/crtfaq.htm

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Old 07-24-2005, 06:19 PM
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One thing I have noticed on my Sony 34XBR800 (and some other TVs) is that the convergence seems to be sensitive to how high contrast is set. So I do try to set the contrast and leave it and make adjustments to picture content via other means.

I believe some other TVs may have "dynamically adjusting convergence" though. And was wondering if that might address this issue. Any thoughts on this?

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Old 07-24-2005, 06:45 PM
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What I have heard no one mention, or at least I will have to review this thread, is the control of ambient lighting. If I'm not mistaken, next to properly setting a "standard" ft-lambert of the display, ambient lighting IS CRUCIAL.
From what I have learned, 30 ft-lamberts would be just fine for a direct view crt in a dimly lit room, 50 for a bright sun lit room. So going from where the standard should be set, you will have to more than double you light output to get satisfactory results in a brightly lit room. So there we go. There must be a standard set somewhere for ONE viewing condition ! And there is. That's why an ISF calibrator SHOULD take the extra step to ensure ambient conditions will be met for his work. Now, am I right or wrong on this ?
But................. at least in my home, viewing conditions aren't always as desired. Wife pulls drapes back, I pull them shut, cycle goes on. You know the drill. That is where I like to have the control of the remote. Not to sit there and watch something I'm interested in only to have the picture halfa**.

Now my luck changed last week. I opted for a new couch. Wife said the drapes don't match. Hmmm. Could I possibly talk her into something like.....a really dark set of brown curtains? Yep. Made the biggest difference. Daytime viewing is much more pleasing now. There is now marriage between daytime and nighttime viewing. And the remote stays put.

Maybe we should lighten up a little in here. Now I'm not saying the content is not enjoyable, but I sure would like to sit down with you guys for a beer or two. Maybe we could all go over to Ken's place and check out his set and marvel. Then, Glen, maybe you could show us your magic at your place. Take in to perspective gentlemen, until we do that................ you finish the sentence.
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Old 07-25-2005, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

One thing I have noticed on my Sony 34XBR800 (and some other TVs) is that the convergence seems to be sensitive to how high contrast is set. So I do try to set the contrast and leave it and make adjustments to picture content via other means.

I think this is the case with all phosphor based displays. It also goes back to my comment about maximum contrast setting should be at a point just below the start of scan-line distortion. As a dot displayed on a phosphor screen is excited beyond its optimal range, it starts to grow, bleed over into its surrounding area. This is also where you can see focus and convergence issues because R, G, & B all react a little differently and have different DRV settings. My guess would be that the one with the highest DRV setting would be the first to go. If RDRV is the highest setting, then with a grid pattern, as contrast is increased, you might start to see a little red bleeding from each side of the line.

Maximum, optimal contrast, depending on individual display capabilities, is not always right setting for all viewing conditions. Some displays are not capable of excessive lumens in a dark viewing environment, therefore its max would be appropriate.

The picture, almost always, is sharper with reduced contrast. This is one reason I plan to stack two Marquee 9500LC projectors for my HT. Twice the light output will allow me to reduce contrast resulting in a much sharper image. This is much more noticeable on a screen that is 10.5 times the area of the 34 screen.

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Old 07-25-2005, 11:51 AM
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This may be interesting reading for some:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1734380,00.asp

http://www.etconsult.com/papers/whitepoint.pdf

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Old 07-25-2005, 12:53 PM
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It also goes back to my comment about “maximum” contrast setting should be at a point just below the start of scan-line distortion.

Here's what I notice on my 34XBR800, FWIW. If I put a one-pixel thin white horizontal line on a light grey backdrop, and then begin to overdrive the contrast in a progressive mode (480p), the white line will start to expand in width, and then it will actually separate into two distinct lines! Either this is a problem with my TV, or it graphically illustrates the potential loss of clarity in a vertical direction when contrast is set too high.

If I set convergence with contrast adjusted to the point just before this vertical "blooming" distortion begins to occur, then the convergence will also go noticeably out of adjustment in the horizontal direction if contrast is increased as well. And I'll begin to get red and blue fringing on high contrast vertical edges especially toward the sides of the screen. So my TV can loose PQ in both directions as a result of increasing contrast beyond a certain point.

Decreasing contrast (below the distortion point) seems to be less of a problem though. So I'm inclined to agree that there is an optimum setting for maximum contrast on my 34XBR800 that should not generally be exceeded for best picture clarity. And I frequently seem to need all that contrast (and then some) on this TV for a decent picture. There's alot you can do to control the picture by other means though. I frequently tweak the gamma* and sometimes the white level/clipping** via controls on the DVD player, since that's easiest. Ken's method of setting up different gamma configurations on the TV might be another way of handling this. Controlling ambient light (and readjusting black level/Brightness on the TV as necessary) might be another. I don't like to have ambient light too low though, because then the phosphor lag/trails on the CRT start to become distracting.

Whether there are other features that might mitigate some of these contrast-related issues on newer TVs than mine, I can't say.

* This is labeled "Brightness" on my Sony DVP-NS715P player, and "Gamma" on the video overlay on my PC
** I believe this control is labeled "Picture" on my Sony player and either "Picture" or "Contrast" on the video overlay on my PC.

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Old 07-25-2005, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

So I'm inclined to agree that there is an optimum setting for maximum contrast on my 34XBR800 that should not generally be exceeded for best picture clarity. And I frequently need all that contrast (and then some) on this TV for a watchable picture. So I often have to compensate, ie brighten the image, via other means (usually with the gamma* and white level/clipping** controls on the DVD player, since that's easiest).

This is exactly what I would expect from *any* CRT television, as they all share the same laws of physics and the shortcomings of magnetic-deflection and focusing mechanisms. The "fattening" of the scan spot with increasing brightness *always* occurs. My experience extends from old green oscilloscope tubes from the 50s thru modern flat-face oscilloscope tubes, modern fine monitors, and these current TVs. The beam always spreads with increased beam current (intensity). But how bad it is for a given screen brightness seems to depend a lot on how elegantly the engineers have designed the beam-forming electrodes (the "gun") and the "shape" of the focusing field. Modern tubes are amazing, compared with older designs. The current Sony SFP uncoated tubes can achieve brightness levels without significant degradation I never would have imagined before owning one!

In practice, all one can do is focus the display according to sensible techniques. Sony have accommodated these huge, wide-deflection tubes amazingly well with sophisticated dynamic-focus and -convergence schemes. Tuning the screen-center focus for a fairly high-brightness test pattern will produce different results from using a dim pattern under low ambient light: spot blooming will be minimized in bright areas, but it will never go away. It's is, as you say, a matter of tolerance.

If I had your set (and I nearly do: the 36" is huge, but it has a newer-technology tube), I would optimize focus, set Picture at midpoint (31), and set the drives for the highest brightness that you think maintains high quality. Then, while watching, you can up the Picture for video sources that need it (maybe small areas of white without detail anyway), or return it to your "optimum" for critical viewing of a favorite DVD. That way, you maintain control, but you know at least one setting (31) that is near-perfect as a reference point.

I agree that the ambient lighting is very important, especially its brightness. If the TV does not dominate the eye/brain color-sensing mechanism, the surrounding colors start to affect what you perceive as "neutral" tones. For critical viewing, I find that the background lighting must be much less intense than the TV's display and not too strongly colored. But I can't imagine painting my wall behind the TV titanium-dioxide white and using only a 6500K backlight. Of course it will work, but, jeez! it's a *living* room.
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Whether there are other features that might mitigate some of these contrast-related issues on newer TVs than mine, I can't say.

I know no further tricks, either. Getting that initial focus adjustment right, howerver, made a significant difference in the quailty of bright scenes on my TV. That's why I wrote article #13.

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Old 07-25-2005, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

This may be interesting reading for some:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1734380,00.asp

. . . or *required* if you recall some of your science education and really care about what we're duscussing in this thread. This marvelous article is bookmarked on my computer for reference. Three cheers for technical writing that avoids unnecessary jargon while really explaining the important basics.
Thanks for this! Last evening I saw the latest "Batman" movie in a new, state-of-the-art theater and couldn't stop thinking about black level and white balance! This article explains a lot and is timely for me. It should be a little sobering for those who consider sacred the "director's intent," illustrating just how much variations there are in real cinema theaters. Outdoor scenes, showing occasional clear film, seemed yellowish to me in the blown highlights, and the black level sucked -- and this in an otherwise very dark movie.

Both of these articles have made me very happy to have a fine CRT-TV, and someday I'll have to borrow/rent "Batman" to see what a DVD transfer looks like.

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Old 07-25-2005, 09:21 PM
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ADU,
My approach on this is to display a full white field. If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close. Then if you change Picture you should be able to see when the black space between the scan-lines starts to narrow and even disappear if pushed too high. You could also take this a step further by using primary fields, 100 Red, 100 Green and 100 Blue to see if any start at a different point. Blue is not as big a problem as Red and Green.

These TVs can easily put out 50 ft-lamberts at the center of the screen. This is way above SMPTE theater viewing levels. When you further reduce Picture for night viewing, the eye will adjust to it to the point you will feel it in the eye when there is a bright flash on the screen. If you view with too bright of a screen, it will be harder for the eye to see black details and you will need to adjust the black level accordingly. One way to test this is to use the Needle Pulse pattern with the half 0 IRE and half 100 IRE. Use your high Picture setting and adjust to the proper black level. Now start reducing Picture and watch you black level setting.

As for many theater setups, it wouldn't surprise me if the operator knew as much about setup as the local CC or BB salesmen do about TVs. . . . . . . "You push this button and the picture comes up there".

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Old 07-25-2005, 11:04 PM - Thread Starter
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My approach on this is to display a full white field. If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close.

Glen, you do pull the back off these CRT sets and redo focus before judging brightness and line overlap, right?

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Old 07-26-2005, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

If you use 480i, individual scan-lines should be visible up close...

[I think] I know what you're driving at here, but for those who may not be following along quite so closely... to see the individual scanlines, ideally what you want is for the screen to be displaying/scanning in a 31.5khz 480p progressive mode, which is acheived either by directly feeding the TV a 480p signal, or by using 480i with either the Progressive or Cinemotion up-conversion (both of which also display at 480p on the screen).

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Old 07-26-2005, 10:53 AM
 
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Kentech, found a few discoverys last night with the MID 5 tables:

MHYR adds a blurring effect like MHLY and MHLC,i confirmed this with still images on the DVE disc using the troubleshooting section in the color section where it shows the still images of the girl in the restaraunt, the red head girl, the college campus with people outside, and the boy outsidde on the grass.Up close it was visible but very minor blurring effect.

Here arer my settings for MID 5 that i made better:

MHLY: 0
MHLC: 0
MVLY: 0
MVLC: 0
MHYR: 0
MHYL: 1
MHYE: 0
MHYO: 1
MHCR: 0
MHCL: 0
MHCE: 0
MHCO: 0
MVYR: 0
MVYL: 0
MVYE: 0
MVCR: 0
MVCL: 0
MVCE: 0

for the factory settyings for each input all were at 0 except for MHLY and MHLC these were on for each input and i turned them off, picturte is much better now and texture is clearly visible without being over enhanced or munipulated.

The goal like you said was to just pass the signall to the screen without any processing what so ever, the less the better and it looks great!

I still don't understand why sony would turn on tyhe low pass filters, theres really no need for them it just blurs the images and ruins textures.

My factory settings for MID 5 video input 5-6 component 480p were:

MHLY: 1
MHLC: 3
MVLY: 0
MVLC: 0
MHYR: 1
MHYL: 1
MHYE: 4
MHYO: 1
MHCR:0
MHCL: 0
MHCE: 0
MHCO: 0
MVYR: 0
MVYL: 0
MVYE: 0
MVCR: 0
MVCL: 0
MVCE: 0
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Old 07-26-2005, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Glen, you do pull the back off these CRT sets and redo focus before judging brightness and line overlap, right?

I have not gotten there yet. I haven't done the magnets either. I don't have one of these TVs at home to use as a test unit. This level of work is really beyond the scope of Basic ISF Calibrations and best for trained technicians. Experimenting on your own TV is one thing, but doing it for others has different responsibilities. Some of us will provide additional scope of calibration/alignment work, but most are not Authorized Repair technicians. Many of the people that ask for calibrations have new TVs that are usually under warranty. I always recommend they seek warranty service first. Some actually get replacement TVs. Warranty service and most service technicians don't have the equipment and will not do color calibration and really don't seem to care about any of the user settings either.

There are so many factors in this. A lot of calibration work is done within three feet of the TV to be able to see the detail, even with my 110 screen. Not everyone has acute vision to see slight focus errors, wearing glasses can create the appearance of convergence errors. Most people can see/detect slight color differences and are much less sensitive to change in light level.

I am a DIY kind of a person, I have done a variety of things over the years, worked on Navy jets (F-4J), Porsche race cars, rebuilt cars, painted cars, designed engineered and built a house, cabinet work, rebuilt and modified CRT projectors Because of my varied background, I have a tendency, or am willing to go a little deeper in calibrations when I have enough documentation (which doesn't always exist). I am willing to experiment with adjustments, but not without fully discussing and disclosing to the customer that I haven't done this before, etc. Occasionally, I may experiment with adjustments to try to improve the image at no additional cost to the customer. Some TVs like DLP and LCD can be difficult on gray scale, Contrast and Brightness settings.


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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I know what you're driving at here, but for those who may not be following along quite so closely... to see the individual scanlines, ideally what you want is for the screen to be displaying/scanning in a 31.5khz 480p progressive mode, which is acheived either by directly feeding the TV a 480p signal, or by using 480i with either the Progressive or Cinemotion up-conversion (both of which also display at 480p on the screen).

If you stay with an interlaced signal, you will see the scan-lines easier because only every other line is displayed on the screen. Progressive shows every line. Using progressive, you should be able to see the scan-lines and as contrast increases too much, the scan-lines will tend to disappear.

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Old 07-26-2005, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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The goal like you said was to just pass the signall to the screen without any processing what so ever, the less the better and it looks great!

"Looks great" is the important part. But bear in mind that many video sources have been degraded and need some sharpening to "look great," and so that's what it's for. Use wisely, that's all. (That said, if you like things scratchy-sharp, as I'm sure some folks do, the Sharpness Police will not come knocking at your door . . .)
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I still don't understand why sony would turn on tyhe low pass filters, theres really no need for them it just blurs the images and ruins textures.

I agree, But some folks probably complain about noise or grain on SD RF broadcasts (e.g. analog cable), and this softening also reduces noise. Some folks like a *smooth* picture. Maybe Sony has gotten enough complaints about "noise" that they decided to filter it out even at the expense of fine detail. My solution? A suitable viewing distance for SD video, and I don't see the noise (it's random) but I do see the image detail. Sony obviously has their own priorities!

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Old 07-26-2005, 02:26 PM
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If you stay with an interlaced signal, you will see the scan-lines easier because only every other line is displayed on the screen.

Not sure what you're driving at here since 480i is up-converted to either 480p (Progressive or Cinemotion DRC), or 960i (Interlaced DRC) for display on these TVs and the scanlines aren't that easy to discern at 960i due to the interlacing... unless maybe you're referring to line-doubling? The scanlines should be relatively easy to make out with either a 480p signal or 480i Progressive/Cinemotion though.

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