THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 27 - AVS Forum
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post #781 of 2967 Old 01-20-2006, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber
I believe the service menu items affecting these "linearity" artifacts are in the D-CONV group.
Sorry, they're not! The D-CONV group is *exclusively* color convergence -- and only horizintal at that.

You want the *geometry* adjustments in 2170D-2. These straighten up *vertical* lines as well as one can, and additional adjustments in 2170D-1 will correct top and bottom *horizontal lines* not being parallel (#9, HTPZ). See reprint from a typical service manual attached to post #14 here

Attached is a later version of the same information.

If horizontal lines or top/bottom edges are curved, they must be corrected with attached permanent magnets, and that also goes for vertical misconvergence (color fringing on horizontal white lines or edges).

 

xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 476.783203125k . file

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post #782 of 2967 Old 01-20-2006, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleanupthat View Post

1 more question. If i dont save anything in the sony service menu my settings will go back, right??

For geometry and most other settings, that's correct. (There are only a couple of esoteric exceptions.)

Further, you can undo any changes you have made *before* you WRITE (save) anything by pressing the button sequence Zero-Enter. That will READ the previously stored values back into the working memory of the TV, as though you had powered-off and re-entered service mode. But whenever you WRITE some new settings, then they are saved to stored memory, preserved during power-off, and are the values that become effective when you next turn on the TV.

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post #783 of 2967 Old 01-20-2006, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleanupthat View Post

When i do a "bow" adjustment in the service menu. What exactly will that fix. What is the bow adjustment for? What does it do?

Read the available documentation on geometry adjustments. There are pictures there that explain all.

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post #784 of 2967 Old 01-20-2006, 05:36 PM
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After searching for over a year on how to disable the "auto 16:9" feature on my Sony KV-36HS510, I found this in the AVS archives posted by Dwe-

First of all, the 4:3/16:9 discussion was cool, but this isn't the thread for it, so I will cease from it here. Back to the origin of getting results from DVI.

Now, JUMP off is very cool, because all you need to do now is fix the geometry of the 720p/1080i screen modes. Using your PC, you set your resolution to a 720p/1080i mode. Then you go to the MID_3 menu in service mode and shrink the screen until over-scan is gone. This is very amazing, cause it doesn't mess up your 480 geometry. Now you, like I, can play PC games and watch 720p/1080i HD content, full screen 4:3.

It's just that easy and anyone who purposely bought a 4:3 to watch 4:3 screen sizes should do that. Pros and Cons about the quality of any 4:3 squeezing the screen does for 16:9, I will no longer discuss off topic in threads like this that aren't about that. I am helping 4:3 users get the most out of their screen, like I'm so glad ADU and many others did with their knowledge here.

JUMP mode off for life.


I know part of this post relates to using a PC. I now have an upconverting DVD player with EDID but the picture still compresses to 16:9 while using 720p or 1080i for that matter.

What do you think Kentech?
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post #785 of 2967 Old 01-20-2006, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Sorry, they're not! The D-CONV group is *exclusively* color convergence -- and only horizintal at that.

You want the *geometry* adjustments in 2170D-2. These straighten up *vertical* lines as well as one can, and additional adjustments in 2170D-1 will correct top and bottom *horizontal lines* not being parallel (#9, HTPZ). See reprint from a typical service manual attached to post #14 here

Attached is a later version of the same information.

If horizontal lines or top/bottom edges are curved, they must be corrected with attached permanent magnets, and that also goes for vertical misconvergence (color fringing on horizontal white lines or edges).

My bottom lines, on the sides of the hdtv are curved upwards. And my top lines, on the sides of the hdtv are curved downwards. The middle seems fine and straight (i think). This problem seems to be causing my distortion on the sides of the tv. So you are saying that the only way to fix my problem is to apply magnets. "sigh" How would i do that, without ruining the set even more??? I guessing i would need to call up some tv technician. Is this magnet treatment fixable by an avearge consumer??? Would you attempt to fix something with magnets. WHAT DO I DO!!!!!!!!!!??? I am frustrated.
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post #786 of 2967 Old 01-20-2006, 08:50 PM
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Quote:


Is this magnet treatment fixable by an avearge consumer???

Just a personal experience....but I had this and a splotch issue on my smaller bedroom HDTV. I actually applied a few fridge magnets to the outside of the case in strategic areas and ridded myself of both the crooked lines and the color issue. It may not be a fix forever...but it's worked well. You may have a more serious issue than mine. Play with it a little. I used the round magnets that you would find on the back of refrigerator hooks...like where you would hang ovenmits or towells. A little scotch tape and presto. Weird....but it worked.
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post #787 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gutwrencher View Post

Just a personal experience....but I had this and a splotch issue on my smaller bedroom HDTV. I actually applied a few fridge magnets to the outside of the case in strategic areas and ridded myself of both the crooked lines and the color issue. It may not be a fix forever...but it's worked well. You may have a more serious issue than mine. Play with it a little. I used the round magnets that you would find on the back of refrigerator hooks...like where you would hang ovenmits or towells. A little scotch tape and presto. Weird....but it worked.

If i try to full around with magnets is there any chance, like 1%, that i could permanetly damage my tv, or even temporarily damage it???.
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post #788 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 08:53 AM
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OK - Using DVE's Overscan and Crosshatch patterns ouput from my DVD player at 480i to Vid5, I successfully centered my raster (using 2170P1 & 2, and then correctly centered and adjusted the image using MID2 0-3. When I watch a DVD everything is great. When I watch my D* HR10-250 for an SD channel output at 480i, everything is great (the grey side panels are perfectly parallel and straight up & down). (I'm at 2.5% overscan by the way for 480i).

But when I switch the output on my HR10-250 to 1080i, I notice that the gray side bars on SD material are narrower (closer to the edge of the bezel). I think this means that I need to adjust the 1080i image using MID3, however I've had mixed results trying to do this. Since my DVD player only outputs DVE images at 480i, I can't use DVE to adjust the 1080i image or overscan. So, I tried using the PATN crosshatch pattern and a 1080i signal from my D*box, and the MID3 table adjustments. The weird thing is the "original" values that were set for MID3 0-3 (VDHP - VDVS) were different when I checked them after turning on the PATN 1 crosshatch, than the values that were there when I just check MID3 while watching a 1080i output from my HR10-250 (without the PATN crosshatch engaged).

Does anyone know why the values for MID3 for 1080i/V5/V6 would be different with PATN crosshatch turned on than when it is not turned on?



On a related issue - as I was saying, I got my geometry and overscan set perfectly for 480i V5/V6 using DVE. But now when I output SD source material at 480i, everything looks great, but the same material output/upconverted at 1080i "bows" out (as if PIN and MPIN need to be adjusted). I was under the impression that PIN and MPIN are global settings. Why would they be perfect for 480i and off at 1080i?

Last - are the first four values for MID3 completely equivalent (as far as what they control) as the first four values of MID2 - the acronyms are not the same, nor does there appear to be a Vertical Position value for MID3 (It's labeled Envelope instead).

Thanks as always.
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post #789 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 10:44 AM
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Hey everyone, awesome thread, i have to admit ive messed with my settings, is there an option to revert to factory defaults?
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post #790 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 10:54 AM
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Is there a setting in the service menu to adjust barrel distortion?
This seems to be the problem i am having, which is the opposite of pincusion.
Here is a link to what my problem kinda looks like, it is not as drastic though.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=barrel+distortion

Here is pincusion which appears to be the opposite of my problem.
http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/key=...ion+distortion

What settings in the service menu for my hs420 can i adjust this "barrel distortion" that i think i have? I was thinking of trying to adjust the upper corner pincusion or UCP, and the lower corner pincusion or LCP. I was thinking VSIZ, and PPHA, might adjust something. I just want to know what settings can fix "barrel distortion". I dont think it would be these picusion adjustment because that is for pincusion, and barrel distortion is the opposite. Is there any other settings for barrel distortion? Before i go back into this scary service menu, i want to be ontop of things, instead of having the hdtv on top of me! Please help me out here. Do you think any of those settings will help fix some of this barrel distortion (That I think I have??.) Please help me.....
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post #791 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 11:02 AM
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FOR A DIGITAL CAMERA Here is how to fix barrel distortion and pincusion (Link at bottom). I just need this kind of fix for my tv!!!!!! Is it possible.

http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/imag...rection_01.htm
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post #792 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleanupthat View Post

Is there a setting in the service menu to adjust barrel distortion?

Dude, please read the documents on geometry from poat #783, above.

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post #793 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 11:07 AM
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I would just like to add that although my tv seems to suffer from barrel distortion, i am not totally sure that, that is my only problem. I might just have barrel distortion, but it also appears i might have some pincusion problem too, and other problems with the geometry (like i stated earlier). I dont know, i am very confused here. Would it help if i take a pic of my tv and post it here? Do you think you would see the problem i am having?
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post #794 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Dude, please read the documents on geometry from poat #783, above.

I have read that post left and right, up and down. I have been in the service menu and tried to adjust almost all those settings, while looking at material on my xbox 360. (i dont have a usb thumb drive, no dvi to hdmi converter, no calibration discs, no hd channels until wednesday) I just have what i have (for now.) I would just like to know what setting in the document or sevice menu would most likely solve my problem with barrel distortion/ and or pincusion. (the problem i am having looks exactly like the one from the link.)
I dont know AHH, i guess i will continue to mess around with the service menu!! You know, it is very scary in there, for me. I mean what if i touch key 7 by accident?? Then my whole tv could just die!! I am just looking for some tips from preferably you since you seem like a tech savy guy who knows his way around this thing. I am just looking for some advice before i go back into the service menu with zero calibration discs.

Maybe i am asking to much. I would just like some help. I am a person who has never knew any of these tv terms before. I am a person who never knew tvs had service menu to adjust all of these things. Please help me..... Thanks....
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post #795 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 11:42 AM
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Think ive gotten myself into a dill of a pickle, i did the 7 jump enter combo to reset, and it didnt seem to do anything except, now i have the same video coming oiut of two component inputs. lol any suggestions?
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post #796 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 11:52 AM
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First off, am more active in other threads in HDTV areas and unfortunetly don't have a lot of extra time to contribute to this one, but I have been utilizing it extensively for the past 7 months. Wanted to say thanks much to everyone for all the excellent info, as well as contribute a couple of hopefully helpful items while I have some time for it on a sat afternoon. AVS has seen a lot of great threads I've seen over the years, but I've got to rate this one near the top.

First a few thoughts on Ken's new image processing settings/posts, then a couple of XBR960 specific things relevant to MID5 columns and the relevant 2103-1/2103-2 settings ...

Having used them for almost a week now, I really like it! I am obsessing a little over SYSM=2 or 3, though, probably mostly just because I've been using 3 for everything for so long. As it turns out I do really like the unsharp-mask like effect, and I also think more of a photo-realistic look with it at 2 - given the other new P2170-3 and MID5 Column's I've set up/settings at least. Haven't had a lot of time with the new settings actually watching a lot of content however.

At first, had one of the pic modes still set up so I could compare the "old" settings to the new(well, except for the 3dcomb/2101-1 settings when applicable and checked those out a little bit when making the changes as well), and so far haven't seen anywhere I would want to keep my "old" settings. In fact, I've already seen enough that I have already since changed that one to the new settings as well, but currently pointing to a MID5 column with all 0's currently as I usually use it for experimenting, anyway. I have also left "pro" 2170p3 settings at set default for reference, BTW, except for the VM settings, 2170p3 #2~5. I did have things pretty much set up per Ken Tech's Sept. 05 updates to his image processing article/posts and/PDF, except that I found I had to do a little "more"(actually a lot more) for my particular DVD player with 480p DVD via component, via a different MID5 Column I sest up for it. Strangely enough, I'm not getting that now, and am using the same MID5 column I'm using for 720p.

Would also like to note that I agree with Ken concerning the SVM settings, and I'm using his VM settings at either "low or Medium" for just about everything - I like it anyway. I used to have the RCA 38"(F38310 - XBR960 is actually a warranty replacement for that set) and allways thought they did a great job implementing SVM on it, which I think was very much along the lines(but maybe a tad bit more/not much) of the same thing I get with the XBR and "medium" or Low with Ken's settings. Wish I could figure out how to do much the same on a couple of other CRT HD displays I have(Toshiba 34HF84 and Samsung TXN2668WHF), but doesn't look like it's going to work out, so SVM is off on those.

Also, might be interesting to note that with the new settings, I have sharpness slider at "30" for everything except from My DVD Player, and a JVC S-VHS VCR, for which I use sharpness "31". Seems that, with my eyes at least, that's right where it "needs" to be.

XBR960 specific notes concerning image processing settings :

#1). XBR960 and factory MID5 Columns -- - On my XBR(manufactured Jan 05 at the PA plant), and according to the XBR960 service codes PDF :

A). For the set defaults, MID5 Columns #53~#56 are actually assigned to P2170-3 MIDE#16. -- It's really silly I think, as for instance, Columns #53~63 are all zeros at the factory defaults, however, #53~56 are assigned for MIDE for the different Pic modes for Twin-view feature ... #53=Pro, #54=Movie,etc. So, just something for XBR owners to keep in mind when deciding which MID5 column's to take over. Right now, what I'm doing is I have MID#5 POP#60~63 still set up with values I had been using or experimenting with previously, and Column #57~59 with a few of the suggested "columns" from the Ken Tech's new findings. So far, those 3 have been all I have setup with the new settings(and so far appears that those 3 will probably be all I need), but I don't have anything assigned for #54~56 and may use those if necessarly as well. Am using #53 for the "all zeros" column when I want to use it/try it(and still for pro "twin view" left at default) and, can probably use column #60~63 with other values than what I have them at, currently if desired.

B). I don't think anything is actually assigned to Column #28~52 either, according to the PDF at least. But I haven't checked inputs/pic modes and 2170P3 MIDE#16 value for inputs I'm not using to see. Also, according to the XBR960 service codes PDF file, except for #50, those Columns aren't all zeros, so I probably wouldn't want to change those, anyway.

2). 2103-2 #6-SHAP, #7-SHFO, #8-PREO, #16-SSMD : In addition to the changes for 2103-1 #6SHAP,#7-SHFO,#8-PREO,and #16-SSMD as mentioned by Ken for the various appicable inputs -- XBR960 owners might also want set 2103-2 #6-SHAP,#7-SHFO,#8-PREO and #16-SSMD to the suggested values for the 2103-1 "versions" as well. These 2103-2 values seem to be solely for such features as "twin-view" and Index .. although, (and here's one place where it gets odd), on my set at least, the "input" specific nature of these settings don't seem to be quite exactly as lableled the in the 960 servvice codes PDF. From what I could tell they aren't using a lookup table/etc, so don't know why some of the default values+such are labeled in red lettering in the PDF.

I did confirm by visably inspecting the results that modifying values for 2103-2 #6,#7,#8 and #16 did affect "twin-view", but no other input or "feature" that I checked at first -- However, although this is probably going to sound odd -- I didn't spend a lot of time on these, so can't specifically tell you exactly WHAT all inputs/features you need to go through and modify these values for if you want to set these to new values -- I *think* I set the new values for P2103-2 #6+#7+#8 while in "Twin-View" and "RF"(using analog OTA with it specifically) -- On the RF part of it, don't ask me why since the values used for "RF" input(but not for index) are actually set in 2103-1 #6#7#8 and #16 as Ken wrote up, so would have thought I'd have had to select "index" to set them in 2103-2 for "index", but that didn't turn out to be the case .. What I did really was just go ahead and cycle through all inputs/scan rates I'm using and twin-view+Index and make sure the new settings for 2103-2 stuck everywhere(they did), even though, it seems its actually only "twin-view" and "index" features which are effected by these in 2103-2.

Hope that makes some sense, should become more apparent what I'm talking about when/if you go to change those settings - Perhaps, just setting them to the new values while you are using both "twin-view" and "index" would do the trick - that would seem to make sense, but of course I didn't quite do it that way. Since the PDF file doesn't seem to label the "inputs" correctly, you'll probably want to write down the default values and "where" you actually changed them rather than expect to be able to rely on the PDF file.

Wow, what a bunch of writing just about setting SHAP/SHFO/PREO/SSMD "index feature" and for "twin-view" ... Not that you may feel it actually necessary to change those for index+twin view features(and I certianly didn't spend much time on it), but in case you do, there it is .... I do think this thing has WAY too many settings at times ... Yikes, why couldn't it just use the 2101-1 values for these. Sure would be nice to be able to do this with a PC "hooked up" to the set rather than using the remote .... Only had the set about 7 months, and the labels on the 1, 2 and 3 buttons are already ALL the way gone. Went through that first set of batteries for it awfully quick as well ....
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post #797 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 12:01 PM
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Sorry for the adjacent double posts, thought It made sense to do these seperately. Also - apologize for the length of these, unfortnetely I've never been all that good about writing clear and consise+short posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Actually it looks like we're both slightly off and that these controls effect 480p/1080i, but not 480i. FWIW, I did a few tests to see which inputs and signals are effected by these controls on my 34XBR800 and this was the result.
Code:
INPUT      SIGNAL    MTRX  CBGN  CRGN  YGN

Composite  480i      No    No    No    No
Component  480i      No    No    No    No
Component  480p      Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
DVI        480p      Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
DVI        1080i     Yes   Yes   Yes   Yes
So it appears that these may change the color space (MTRX) and offset decoding (CBGN, CRGN, YGN) for ATSC/HD (480p/720p/1080i) versus NTSC/SD (480i).

I can't be sure about 720p since I don't have any 720p signals handy, and it also has to be "upconverted" for display like 480i. And my 34XBR800 has a slightly older version of this chip (CXA2151, rather than CXA2171), which could work a little differently. But based on the above it looks like these are probably ATSC/HD-based controls. Maybe someone else could try 720p to confirm this. (Pls recall the earlier caveat re writing down the original value for MTRX before changing it, since this control is automatically saved w/o being written to memory. 0-Enter won't work on MTRX either.)


Well, that may explain a lot. Thanks for digging this up, as it may turn out to be very beneifical for me.

More detail later, but It appears color decoding differs a bit on my set for 480p+1080i component sources and I'm pretty sure from 1080i via the internal ATSC receiver as well, this must be why. I think I've noticed this in a couple of different ways, now I know where to look to see if I can do anything about it.

I'm not sure about 720p yet, from what I've seen I'd bet either that #1). it doesn't, or #2). If it does effect 720p, then seems like something a little "different" is going on, perhaps elsewhere concerning 720p vs. 1080i sources from the internal ATSC receiver. More on this in #2 below.

Here's the 2 places where I think I've noticed this.

#1). Using AVIA/DVE Color test bars/decoder test and turning on RGB guns indiviudually, I get pretty much spt on results(AVIA color decoder test shows RGB all in the 0~+5% range, nothing above about +3% as far as I can tell, and the highest, slight bit of oversaturation would be blue - does help me to see what's going on with that if I take off my glasses!) with 480i DVD with Hue at 0, Color=31, and 2170P-4 RYR~GYB at :

13-15-5-3

However -- That doesn't work for 480p DVD. I need values of Color=34, Hue=0, and RYR~GYB = 14-14-6-3, there to get the closest results(but can't get "as close" as with 480i) using DVE or AVIA. At first, I wondered if something weird was up with the DVD player. But, I'd also used this same Zenith DVD player with DVE/AVIA to calibrate color decoder on my Toshiba 34HF84, and I noted that for instance with it, I needed the SAME exact settings for either 480p or 480i from that player with it. For that matter, the a cheap JVC 480i only DVD player needed the same settings as the Zenith. Must not be anything "wrong" with the DVD players color output, I thought. Note that 34HF84 has scan rate and in some cases SD "signal type"(s-video or composite) specific settings available for all of it's various color decoder settings it has such as G-Y or R-Y.


#2). Ok, here's the kicker concerning how I noticed something seemed a little different about color decoding at 480p and 1080i than anywhere else, and that what was going on with 480p is probably the same thing that's happening with 1080i. Might sound like I'm going off on a tangent here, but first, I have to explain something about what I did that has nothing to do with color decoding.

Having had "grey bars" for 4x3 SD signals up on the other DV-CRT HD displays I've had - It might seem very odd, but I have gotten so used to it I've even come to prefer it, and also, although I'm not really worried about it also believe having those there may help a bit with uneven phosphor wear, if one watches much 4x3 content with 4x3 aspect ratio on a 16x9 CRT.

So, I found out how to "put in" the grey bars on the XBR960(for "normal" mode, it only works with 4x3 480i/p AND *for a grey, instead of black background for "twin view" windows) by changing MID1 #24 - BCOL to 6 from it's default(black). For anyone crazy as me who likes "grey bars" Note that BCOL ranges from 0~15, with 0 being black, and 15 being white, so you can pretty much have the "shade" of grey you like. Note that also, when I adjusted this, I noticed what was "labeled" Others or "normal" in the service codes PDF didn't necessarily seemed to "jive" with "where" I had to adjust the BCOL value to where I wanted it and have it stick. And, oddly enough, I ended up having to adjust BCOL when I was using "full" screen mode to actually get it to stick for "normal" go figure - even though it doesn't even effect "full mode" in any way, shape or form. One of those things where it's probably best to cycle through Normal/full/widezoom/etc, as well as "twin view" to make sure your new value sticks everywhere it is supposed to. For my set I also set it to "6" for "twin view" as I found I preferred a grey background there as well(I know, I know I'm crazy), but, for example, one could set it for "normal" for grey sidebars, and leave "twin view" background at Black if they so desire.

I noticed RIGHT away, that when cycling through inputs in Twin view, that when I selected something that was a 1080i signal(via ATSC internal receiver/OTA is currently my only source for 1080i or 720P sources) OR 480p signal, my new "grey" background turned a slightly different color than I got from anything else - 480i via s-video or composite or component OR ATSC internal tuner, 720p via internal tuner/etc/etc. the grey background stays exactly the same, but For 480p or 1080i, the HUE for it turns slightly "pinkish", the exact same shade of "slight pinkishness" to the grey, in fact. At first, even though I'd went through and checked it/modified if necessary the 2170P-1 "CBOF"/CROF" settings for all inputs thought I might have something going on there, but that just didn't seem to be the case.

Now, while I'm not positive about this, I *think* and am somewhat certian when you are using "twin view", SM settings/values specific to the input/scan rate/etc. are used for the signal you are displaying+is active/you have selected(or might just be for the left window -- can't get to the set and check it currently). If so, and given what I'm getting with AVIA/DVE at 480p, then it looks like perhaps I need a little different settings than the factory defaults for the relevant CXA2171 settings.

Also think If I recall correctly from previous info -- it's using component video "inside the set", in this case it's likely the MTRX/CBGN/CRGN+YGN values would probably effect 480p/1080i signals fromthe internal ATSC/QAM as well.

I haven't tried looking at the Color bars for 1080i/p in the internal QM test patterns with this yet, but that's something else on my list the next time I can get a chance to get the set away from the rest of the family, or more specifically, the family away from the set for a long enough period of time I can have another "SM session" with it ...

Also, don't know about Memory stick(1080i), on this can't look at that one via Twin view, I don't think.


-------------------------------------

So what I am thinking(hoping anyway) is : Given what I'm seeing with the Hue of the "grey background" on Twin-view for 480p+1080i being exactly the same, yet slightly different for everything else : Perhaps If I can manage to get color "right" with 480p DVD using the same values I'm using for Hue/Color sliders and RYR-GYB for 480i DVD, BY adjusting the CXA2171 MTRX CBGN CRGN YGN values for 480p and AVIA/DVE Color bars/color decoder tests, then hopefully, I can somewhat expect that 1080i should be "correct" as well ?

Keep thinking about "ATSC color space" though, and wondering if it's really going to work out that way, given 480p NTSC from DVD vs. 1080i from ATSC, or if I'll have anyway of knowing for sure without a HD test pattern generator ..... wouldn't the internal QM color bars at 1080i work to check it as well, or is 2171 chip bypassed - Think I'd read it had been detirmined it wasn't but allways got ask these sorts of questions about this sort of thing, hey that's part of the fun of it ....

Am I sort of thinking along the right lines on this/anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about it?

I do notice that the service codes PDF file for the XBR960 shows both 1080i+720p component or ATSC under the same heading for "MTRX", which if previous experience with some other settings have been any clue may not mean much, especially as I notice there's a "others" column there as well ... certianly don't want to "mess up" 720p, though, and hope this isn't going to work out where you can have either 720p or 1080i "just right" but not both .... Will have to experiment a bit with this when I get a chance and see what happens, and to see if I get the same results as you did concerning 480p/1080i, which I'm expecting to be the case, but if I can I'll check it just to make sure -- Have no way to check DVI/HDMI at present, as well as 480p from the ATSC tuner, as I have no stations in the area sending 480p, currently.
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post #798 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 02:02 PM
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Ok, i jumped into the service menu, testing different settings. I found out it seems my horizontal size and position is badly off. My vertical size and position is badly off too. (I think) I need to know how to test these settings to what they are supposed to be set at for perfect calibration. Ahhhh, i dont have any way of getting calibration discs, Can i purcase a usb thumbdrive and copy things from the internet to my 360? What would you recommend i do to get perfect (well maybe not too perfect) vertical and horizontal size and position.
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post #799 of 2967 Old 01-21-2006, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Cleanupthat View Post

I need to know how to test these settings to what they are supposed to be set at for perfect calibration. Ahhhh, i dont have any way of getting calibration discs, Can i purcase a usb thumbdrive and copy things from the internet to my 360? What would you recommend i do to get perfect (well maybe not too perfect) vertical and horizontal size and position.

Read this post post, and the other posts highlighted within... as well as retrieving the OVERSCAN.ZIP 1920x1080 test pattern attached to one of those other posts. If you can display the cross-hatch JPG that's in that zip file from your 360 to your XBR960 at 1080i, you should be on your way.
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post #800 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 01:52 AM
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I bought a new 30XS955 recentely, it works okay and there is a picture szie problem.
I tested with a HIVI CAST DVD and I only have 90% picture of the patten (safty zone), for example, if we take a 1920 x 1080 picture and put it on TV then I only see 1700 x 960 something on screen.
Can this be adjusted to have more or even 98% of the picture?

thanks a lot.
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post #801 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ikrups View Post

I bought a new 30XS955 recentely, it works okay and there is a picture szie problem.
I tested with a HIVI CAST DVD and I only have 90% picture of the patten (safty zone), for example, if we take a 1920 x 1080 picture and put it on TV then I only see 1700 x 960 something on screen.
Can this be adjusted to have more or even 98% of the picture?

thanks a lot.


Easily correctable. See post #783 above for one of the posted Serv. Manual excerpts re: geometry adjustment. Right click and open in new window to view the file. Other posts will tell you how to get into the service menu (post #1! for instance).

Also, as you'll read in other posts (on this page, I believe), you can (and should) use the "Search This Thread" function (at the top of the thread), to search for posts discussing "overscan," which is what you're trying to adjust. Just be sure to read several posts before and after any that you zero in on, to be sure that there aren't any important dissenting opinions on what is stated. Sometimes people get stuff wrong and they usually get corrected a few posts later.

Good luck with your Service Menu changes.
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post #802 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 08:49 AM
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OK - Using DVE's Overscan and Crosshatch patterns ouput from my DVD player at 480i to Vid5, I successfully centered my raster (using 2170P1 & 2, and then correctly centered and adjusted the image using MID2 0-3. When I watch a DVD everything is great. When I watch my D* HR10-250 for an SD channel output at 480i, everything is great (the grey side panels are perfectly parallel and straight up & down). (I'm at 2.5% overscan by the way for 480i).

But when I switch the output on my HR10-250 to 1080i, I notice that the gray side bars on SD material are narrower (closer to the edge of the bezel). I think this means that I need to adjust the 1080i image using MID3, however I've had mixed results trying to do this. Since my DVD player only outputs DVE images at 480i, I can't use DVE to adjust the 1080i image or overscan. So, I tried using the PATN crosshatch pattern and a 1080i signal from my D*box, and the MID3 table adjustments. The weird thing is the "original" values that were set for MID3 0-3 (VDHP - VDVS) were different when I checked them after turning on the PATN 1 crosshatch, than the values that were there when I just check MID3 while watching a 1080i output from my HR10-250 (without the PATN crosshatch engaged).

Does anyone know why the values for MID3 for 1080i/V5/V6 would be different with PATN crosshatch turned on than when it is not turned on?



On a related issue - as I was saying, I got my geometry and overscan set perfectly for 480i V5/V6 using DVE. But now when I output SD source material at 480i, everything looks great, but the same material output/upconverted at 1080i "bows" out (as if PIN and MPIN need to be adjusted). I was under the impression that PIN and MPIN are global settings. Why would they be perfect for 480i and off at 1080i?

Last - are the first four values for MID3 completely equivalent (as far as what they control) as the first four values of MID2 - the acronyms are not the same, nor does there appear to be a Vertical Position value for MID3 (It's labeled Envelope instead).

Thanks as always.


I've balanced out PIN and MPIN so that the outwards pincushion bow on 1080i and the inwards pincushion bow on 480i (both for V5/V6) are about the same, respectively. But if I set either one to be straight, the other is concave or convex. Is this just something I'll have to live with?

Also - if anyone wants to be a friend and do me a favor, could you check your 1080i/V5/V6 MID3 values #s 0-3 with PATN crosshatch pattern engaged and see if the values are diffferent than without the PATN crosshatch engaged? Thanks!
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post #803 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Jediphish View Post

Easily correctable. See post #783 above for one of the posted Serv. Manual excerpts re: geometry adjustment. Right click and open in new window to view the file. Other posts will tell you how to get into the service menu (post #1! for instance).

Also, as you'll read in other posts (on this page, I believe), you can (and should) use the "Search This Thread" function (at the top of the thread), to search for posts discussing "overscan," which is what you're trying to adjust. Just be sure to read several posts before and after any that you zero in on, to be sure that there aren't any important dissenting opinions on what is stated. Sometimes people get stuff wrong and they usually get corrected a few posts later.

Good luck with your Service Menu changes.

Thank you Jediphish , I'm going to print all this thread and work on it.
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post #804 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 10:07 AM
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Maybe someone else could try 720p to confirm this. (Pls recall the earlier caveat re writing down the original value for MTRX before changing it, since this control is automatically saved w/o being written to memory. 0-Enter won't work on MTRX either.)

Ok, had a chance to have a "session" with the set last night -- Update to my last post :

Checked 720p from a broadcast ATSC source, and 720p QM Color bars, and discovered that on XBR960 at leaast CXA2171 MTRX, CBGN, CRGN+YGN affect 720p ATSC as well.

So they effect 1080i ATSC, 720p ATSC, 480p ATSC(according to internal QM Color bars) and 480p NTSC(such as from a DVD player via component). I have no way to check 480p from internal tuner, but expect that would be effected as well.

Default values for my set/some notes :

MTRX = 0 - It's default was 0 for internal ATSC tuner 1080i/720p, 0 using 1080i/720p,480p, 0 for memory stick/1080i, 0 for a 480p signal from DVD hooked up to component 5. Didn't change from Zero no matter where I "went" in fact. I don't know about HDMI as I'm not using it.

CBGN = 4
CRGN = 5
YGN = 5

On my set at least, only one value appears capable of being stored for all of those. Including whether or not the signal is ATSC or NTSC for 480p - one value HAS to be used for either. Although Note that the XBR960 servicecodes PDF lists the default for MTRX V5/V6/ATSC/1080i/720p As "1", HDMI as "1" and "others" as 0. I wonder what "others" is, I certianly can't find it ...

Just in case, note that I tried changing the values to see if I could get any "different" values for 480p or 1080i or 720p/etc. to "stick" but it wouldn't work. Only 1 value was allowed.

The following is with RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3/Color=31/Hue=0, and using RGBS to turn on the RGB guns indivdually -- Which is right on the money(more or less) for 480i via component, with DVE or AVIA, as well as as far as I could tell, with QM test pattern Color bars :

I noticed, with the default values for MTRX/CBGN/CRGN/YGN, using either 1). 480p from DVD and AVIA Color tests, and/OR 2.) the internal QM color bars for 480p/720p/1080i that 480p was "closest" of 3 three scan rates to having the correct Color balance. For instance, With the internal QM color bars for 480p/720p/1080i, It was easily obvious that using "green" that all the bars that showed up were extremely close to matching each other perfectly with 480p, but this was NOT the case for 720p or 1080i. It was very also apparent that the internal QM color bars for 720p/1080i were showing the same thing - at least with my capability to compare them, since I can't have both on screen at same time. Red seemed a little closer to being similar between 480p + 720p/1080i, and seemed closer to being correctly balanced for all 3(but off enough to be noticable even with the QM Color bar patterns).

Noticed that, for BOTH 720p and 1080i, changing "MTRX" value to "1" made the "green" test perfectly balanced(as much as I could tell anyway) with the QM internal color bars for BOTH 720p+1080i, but Red, although perhaps "closer" was still noticably off a bit. HOWEVER, changing MTRX to "1" then messes up the "green" test quite significantly for 480p - either with Avia, or the internal QM test bars - Not as much difference using Red, but there was a difference for the worse there as well.

With MTRX at 0,(default) Changing CBGN to 6, CRGN to 6 and YGN=5 worked very well for 480p Color according to AVIA tests, if anything, May have improved things slightly for 720p/1080i as well.

For now, I left MTRX at default(0) and set CBGN/CRGN=6, YGN=5 for best results with 480p and set up a 2nd set of RYR~GYB values for 720p/1080i so I can select it from the User menu Color Axis setting(default or Monitor) via adjusting those the best I could using the 720p/1080i test patterns+RGBS. I came up with 13-13-12-8 for RYR~GYB for 720p/1080i internal QM test patterns, and have that one set for the "monitor" setting currently, ad 13-15-5-3 for 480i/p set for "default". Do note that you can only work with the "default" setting when using the internal QM color bars, I tried setting it to "monitor" before I went to QM, but it wouldn't "stick". Which does make me wonder if there are any SM values the QM color bars "ignores" that also may be important here.

What I really need is to catch a local broadcast station that's sending 1080i or 720p to put up color bars and check and see what really happens with the internal ATSC tuner -- BUT, I did luck out a little bit last night and PBS HD had up a program with scenes with all different varities of Greens(Trees/Grasses/etc) and, seemed like my new "monitor" color axis setting was better, and "green" push/less natural looking greens/fewer shades of green in fact. seemed evident using "default".

That's really not very ideal way to do it though, since I use 720p/1080i and 480i ATSC, as well NTSC signals via the internal tuner and would have to manually switch between "default" and "normal" color axis everytime I "switch channels" more or less ... depending on how things go, either using the QM test patterns, or even better if I catch color bars up from a 720p/1080i broadcast source, probably better to change "MTRX to 1, and adjust CBGN/CRGN/YGN accordingly for best results for 720p/1080i, and set up a different "Color axis" for 480p(if it "works" that is), which all I'm using it currently is for DVD. Just would have to remember to change "Color axis" setting for my DVD input depending upon whether I'm sending 480i, or 480p from the player ...

So,what's going on here? Am I missing something? Seems that Unless the internal QM test patterns aren't showing me something "accurate", and/or unless there are "specific" 480p vs 720p/1080i color decoder settings elsewhere I'm not aware of, it doesn't appear that, for instance -- using the same values for RYR~GYB that I can get accurate color decoding for all three scan rates ...

If I could set "MTRX" to 1 for 1080i/720p, and to "O" for 480p and adjust CBGN/CRGN/YGN seperately for 480p+ 1080i/720p I'd probably be able to at least get it pretty close without needing different values for RYR~GYB, but that doesn't seem possible, at least on my set.

Funny that I was just complaining earlier about having to many SM settings to play with, now it seems I'm asking for MORE of them ....

By the way, the slight hue shift I'm seeing in my "twin view" grey background for ONLY 480p+1080i sources as compared to everything else - including 720p(as explained in last post) isn't effected by any of this, so something else is going on there. My Twin view grey background is the only place it seems to be an issue, don't notice anything like that anywhere else. Maybe should go back and take a look at 2170P1 #2~6 (YOF/CBOF/CROF/etc) again when I get a chance.

Any thoughts/comments/corrections are appreciated, thanks.

Jeff
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post #805 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Ok, had a chance to have a "session" with the set last night -- Update to my last post :

I, for one, am grateful that you are posting in such detail, although, you're right, it's fairly hard to read. But I am paying attention. I want to comment, as I can, having a 36XS955 without TwinView, etc. I am concerned about the digital colorspace vs NTSC, but I don't want to obsess too much. I will read and respond as I can, thanks. It should be clear from my last several posts that my current obsession is getting the *image* right -- meaning that I want (a) to have some settings that *reproduce accurately* what is on a DVD, good or bad, and then (b) to understand what to tweak to "fix" things I find ugly, if possible. Without knowing what the set is doing, however, one gets lost. My use of the previously posted PDF chart in #707 has helped, and the settings published are oriented toward the goal of *neutrality* in rendering image detail.

A couple of short comments:

(1) I recommend that you make some color comparisons between sources with true b/w material, not easy to come by for HD broadcast, for example: One has to have some faith that a film segment in b/w on PBS, for example, is actually color-free, without the greenish tinge that sometimes affects such segments (that disappears when you tuen down Color).

The reason to do this is to perfect the color-offset balance among the inputs, using 2170P-1: CBOF and CROF. That was never correct on my set, especially for HD, and I have fixed it nicely over time. Comparing a true b/w source with the user Color control at minimum vs maximum should yield the *same* screen color.

When I got the set, I noticed that HD broadcasts had yellow-greenish shadows fairly consistently. The columns for YOF thru CROF for MS/ATSC 720p and 1080i were originally 10-45-47 and 10-44-47, respectively. Now they are both 7-55-55, and I seem to have nothing to complain about when b/w is broadcast on HD (PBS, some commercials).

(2) One has to be careful if using an upconverting DVD player to make colorspace adjustments. *If* the player outputs 1080i and 720p with the correct colorspace for that video standard, you're fine. But, as reviewers have noted, some players don't, simply using the NTSC default. I think my Panasonic S97 does do it correctly. Further, I guess one has to assume some things about the internal pattern generators, which are all-digital. But what? That the HD patterns are HD colorspace and the SD are not? I can't say.

Even if I have a few mismatches, I am loathe to obsess over them. It's DVD playback I want to get right, since color on well-mastered DVDs has been tweaked to near-perfection. Braodcast, even HD, may not be accurate, and I am thrilled with the near-photographic rendition of the material. I guess I am willing to forgive a few color-matrix faults; but, like you, I ultimately would like to understand them and get them right.

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post #806 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I, for one, am grateful that you are posting in such detail, although, you're right, it's fairly hard to read.

First Ken, thanks much for the response and your thoughts on this.

Lack of sleep lately certianly didn't help the "clarity" of my previous two posts on this thread, sorry about that.

In additon, I have found it is difficult for me to post about some of these issues and use more precise and consise language at times. Sorry, I'm doing the best I can to not only be complete and accurate, but also make it "understandable", I will continue to strive to improve in this regard, especially where the latter is concerned.

AS just one other example of this, I think you'll find you referred to "SSMD" in a paragraph where you were referring solely to "3dcomb" settings in a post on a previous page concerning image processing settings, without mentioning SSMD is 2103-1 setting. I was able to figure out what you meant, but I'm not sure everyone will be, as I don't think you mentioned anything about SSMD elsewhere. BTW, Default was "0" for all inputs for SSMD on my set(any input/scan rate), not 3, so it was a relevant thing for me, at least to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

It should be clear from my last several posts that my current obsession is getting the *image* right -- meaning that I want (a) to have some settings that *reproduce accurately* what is on a DVD, good or bad, and then (b) to understand what to tweak to "fix" things I find ugly, if possible. Without knowing what the set is doing, however, one gets lost. My use of the previously posted PDF chart in #707 has helped, and the settings published are oriented toward the goal of *neutrality* in rendering image detail.

I can't say enough concerning my appreciation for your work in this area. As I said in a previous post, I'm using the image processing settings you've found+posted recently, and previously was also using what you had found(for the most part) in your previous posts on this. In fact, I have been reading/following the posts on this thread closely and "tweaking" my set for over 7 months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(1) I recommend that you make some color comparisons between sources with true b/w material, not easy to come by for HD broadcast, for example: One has to have some faith that a film segment in b/w on PBS, for example, is actually color-free, without the greenish tinge that sometimes affects such segments (that disappears when you tuen down Color).

The reason to do this is to perfect the color-offset balance among the inputs, using 2170P-1: CBOF and CROF. That was never correct on my set, especially for HD, and I have fixed it nicely over time. Comparing a true b/w source with the user Color control at minimum vs maximum should yield the *same* screen color.

When I got the set, I noticed that HD broadcasts had yellow-greenish shadows fairly consistently. The columns for YOF thru CROF for MS/ATSC 720p and 1080i were originally 10-45-47 and 10-44-47, respectively. Now they are both 7-55-55, and I seem to have nothing to complain about when b/w is broadcast on HD (PBS, some commercials).

Yes, I've read and looked at your previous posts and what values you're using for these and as I said, plan to revisit this again to make sure I wasn't just "seeing things".

[updated/corrected/added info following paragraph]

In the past have checked it when looking at "B&W" with Color slider at "31" or higher and "0"(latter for greyscale) and checking CBOF/CROF adjustments. Also checked various inputs/scan rates as much as possible concerning CBOF/CROF. Not seeing any "problems" I didn't spend a lot of time on it, however. Luckily, at the time I was looking into it I ran into a PBS documentary containing much WWII B&W footage that didn't seem to have that added "greenish"/etc. tint to it. Also, luckily, one of my local PBS HD affiliates transcodes PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast, the other 3 PBS HD stations I receive sends 1080i. At that time, they were running the same programming at the same time, now the one sending 720p time shifts PBS HD programming and airs it per their own schedule.

[end update]

Even changed the values in some cases to see the effects, but CBOF/CROF settings from the factory for my set seemed to not need much adjustment. No pinkish or greenish contamination/etc. or visable differences between inputs/scan rates in the "B&W" content that I noticed. But, maybe I didn't look/check this "closely" enough+will try it again.

Which is one reason why I wanted to emphacize the slight hue change to the grey background(ONLY for 480p/1080i) I have set up for "twin view" is the only place I've noticed an issue with it - But because of that, and because I had already "checked" to see if I needed different offsets for CBOF/CROF, this is why wondered if it might have been caused by differences in color decoding for 480p/1080i, which as I noted in my last post doesn't seem to be the case.

I did need to adjust Blue/Green DRV/CUT values slightly from the factory "warm" offset for good greyscale - , as the factory setting was more "greenscale"(via all inputs/scan rates/etc) than "greyscale", but I'm guessing (just guessing and "eyeballing" though) the factory "warm" offset wasn't that far off from 6500K.

So, I haven't noticed any visable differences between "B&W" between different inputs and scan rates, and, in addition to the rare times I've been able to do that with Color at 31(I certianly admit I need to try to do/find suitable content for more of that), I have also spent quite a bit of time looking at greyscale with color at "0" as well.

BTW, I have the factory "warm offset" default set up for "warm" for reference and my new values drv/cut values(I didn't change RDRV/RCUT from factory setting) set up for "neutral" - I had no use whatsoever for the factory "neutral" and "cool" values or anything near them, looked way too cool/too blue to me.

YOF~CROF 10-44-47 are my set defaults for 1080i, they seemed right on, or pretty close. I recall I had tried some of the previous values you were using for your set, but they added visable "pink/red contamination." But, will revisit this again for all inputs/scan rates again per your suggestions, next on my list.

[updated section follows]

Had to dig up my notes on this - And this is where it gets strange -- 720p defaults YOF~CROF on my set are 10-31-31 - quite different than the servicecodes listing and default on your set. 480p defaults 13-44-42, as with 1080i, same as servicecodes listing. P2170-1 CBOP/CROP defaults are 9-36, quite a bit different from servicecodes listing default of 36-37. I have them all at the defaults, currently. Remember puzzling over the significantly different(from service code file) defaults for 720p CBOF/CROF, and CBOP/CROP about 5 months ago and why I wasn't seeing any "problems" from it, but -- looks like I'm going to have to go through it all again ! LOL ....

This probably explains the bit of reddish tint I'm seeing only from *-480p+1080i sources in the Grey Twinview background I set up, I had it as black background at the time I was checking YOF~CROF to see if I needed to change things, so wouldn't have noticed it then.

* - but not 720p, it's exactly the same shade of grey as 480i or NTSC SD from say, the internal tuner, - and not surprisingly, 480i/etc. are CROF/CBOF set at 31-31, same values as in the servicecodes PDF.

One thing it doesn't explain is why I'm not seeing any sort of "contamination" of color while viewing program material, including B&W content via 720p+1080i.

Another thing it doesn't explain is why I get the exact same results(as far as I can "compare" them anyway) with the 1080i+720p Color bars from the internal QM test patterns, unless CROF/CBOF are ignored if you are using one of the test patterns in QM.

I could be wrong, and will investigate it further when I get a chance, however -- Even IF I can find "better" settings for CROF/CBOF for the various inputs/scan rates, I don't think it's going to change this color decoding "difference" between 480p and 720p/1080i to much of a degree - the difference isn't there(according to the QM test pattern color bars) between 1080i and 720p, just between 480p and 720p, and 480p and 1080i.

[end update]

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(2) One has to be careful if using an upconverting DVD player to make colorspace adjustments. *If* the player outputs 1080i and 720p with the correct colorspace for that video standard, you're fine.

Don't have one of those yet to experience problems with .

What I did to calibrate decoder on another set(Toshiba 34HF84) and for 1080i/720p and the particular device I'm using was to use Color bars put up by broadcast station with the output of my ATSC receiver/STB I have hooked up to it(Zenith HDV420).

I have also had the chance to check those against color bars from a different station/completely different source nothing needed adjustment/changed. But luckily, the Toshiba decoder's "roughly equivilent to RYR~GYR and "MTRX" settings"/etc. are SCAN RATE specific, and adjustable individually for 1080i, 720p/480p. Can't adjust those differently/get it just right for both both 480p NTSC output from DVD and 480p from The ATSC receiver, however - strangely enough, the "manual" that came with this ATSC receiver says it outputs "NTSC standard", maybe they're just talking about the composite/s-video outputs.

Again, should also note that as I mentioned earlier I used the same DVD player to calibrate color decoder in the toshiba for 480i/p, and unlike is the case with the XBR, were no differences in decoder settings(or tint/hue offsets/etc) required for 480i vs 480p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Even if I have a few mismatches, I am loathe to obsess over them.

It's not that I'm all that much "worried" about it either, -- not like this is all that "BIG" and a glaring "mismatch either", although some might thing so ---

Thing is though, I've been able to, for example adjust another set I have for I think, excellent color accuracy in this regard, and given that I do find accurate color reproduction for HD broadcast sources(even though as you say it "varies" greatly, even from the source) important, the difference does show to me - especially, as it turns out in my case currently -- where greens are concerned, such as the field at Mile-high stadium(or whatever they are calling it) via CBS HD currently, or all those greens of the "forest" from a PBS HD channel documentary that was running last night ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I guess I am willing to forgive a few color-matrix faults; but, like you, I ultimately would like to understand them and get them right.

Agree 100%.

Jeff
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post #807 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 01:28 PM
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The links for the pdf files don't work, is there another source for these?
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post #808 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 03:04 PM
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Costas,

If it helps any, I've never had any problem with those. What I usually do (with IE 6) is right click and chose "save target as", then view them off my hard drive after I've downloaded it.

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post #809 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 03:06 PM
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Wow! Nitewatchman AND KenTech in the same thread! This is a dream team, folks!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #810 of 2967 Old 01-22-2006, 04:40 PM
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Nitewatchman,
Thanks for the tip, I got the pdf's. Now the endless tweaking will commence....
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