Originally Posted by ADU
Tks for confirming that 720p is also effected by the CXA2171 controls. I'm still readin your and Ken's posts, tryin to digest it all, and will try to post back with a few thoughts soon.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and appreciate your posts on this so far. I'd read the discussions earlier in this thread related to CXA 21x1 settings and differences between ATSC/NTSC signals/etc, but it's been quite some time ago and I should review those again in more detail.
One thing I'm especially interested in hearing about is if other folks' are getting anything like the same sorts of results as I am on this with my set. Also, would be interested to know if other folks sets came with a MTRX default of 0 or 1, and perhaps if others are getting along the lines of what I'm getting with CBGN/CRGN/YGN as well.
I'm also wondering if I'll run into any similar issues if/when I use HDMI input and 480p or 720p/1080i sources. Looks like there are seperate settings for the values that might be important for HDMI for the most part, but I've learned to take the servicecodes listings with a grain of salt when it comes to my set and certian settings.
What I probably should also do "someday" is hook up one of my other external(STB) ATSC receivers* to XBR960 via component and see what happens, although to tell much of anything I'd need a station sending 1080i or 720p to put up color bars/test patterns to tell much of anything and I don't get the oppurtunity to come across that too often.
* - They'll output/upconvert or downconvert as necessary either 1080i/720p/480p or 480i as desired, doesn't matter what the source is sending.
Looked at it a little more last night, follows should hopefully explain it as well as summerize things. Sorry guys, I really *tried* to make this short as possible(it's not like I enjoy writing long posts or anything), but thought it better to post on this in as much detail as possible.Part I - CXA2171 - MTRX - ATSC/NTSC or 480p vs. 720p/1080i - what's it all about?
A.) - The "evidence" -- From what I've seen it seems like the differences I'm seeing in color decoding/color balance between 480p vs 720p/1080i perhaps have more to do with 480p vs 720p/1080i than ATSC vs NTSC, and that the MTRX setting is the real "important factor" here, and that I really *need* to be able to use MTRX=0 for 480p, and MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i, but I can't do so, as only 1 value is available for all of those.
Could it be (and I do recall perhaps reading something about this) 480p is more using NTSC specs/Color space, and 720p/1080i is using ATSC specs, and perhaps that's why it looks like it should be MTRX=0 for 480p and MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ?
Consider the following.
A#1). Note that using AVIA/DVE Color tests+RGBS -- RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 (or 14-14-5-3 - haven't decided on that difference yet), gives me best results for color balance/accuracy with 480i NTSC, and 480i ATSC according to internal QM color bars for color balance using AVIA or DVE tests - i.e. sources that do not use CXA2171 MTRX/etc.settings. For 480i via component, it's pretty much right on with color slider=31, Hue=0, and no changes from the factory "o's" for UCOF/UHOF in P2170-3, nor was it necessary to modify SHUE/SCOL in P2170-4 from factory defaults. Note that I have RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 set up as the "default" color axis choice from XBR's user menu.
That's pretty much the case for S-Video+composite inputs as well. For Svideo however, for best color balance with Color=31, Hue=0, the factory defaults for YV/VC are UCOF=2, UHOF=3 - and that's exactly what is needed. For composite video sources, need to change Tint to G1 for best results.
A#2). With 480p, Using the following values and either AVIA/DVE color tests from DVD OR the 480p ATSC internal QM color bars -- and this is what I think may be signifcant here -- I get the same results for color balance from both 480p DVD+AVIA or DVE, OR 480p internal Test patterns : Color balance Looks very close to "perfect"(It's as close as it will/can get anyway) with these settings, I tried to tweak them farther, just to see, but things are "right as rain" with these settings, anyway. However, color balance is equally "off" via AVIA/DVE+DVD at 480p or internal 480p test patterns If I use the values listed farther below in section A#3 :
MTRX=0 (my set's default, although I have a feeling default should have been 1)
YGN = 5
A#3). With 1080i/720p + using the values from A#2 above -- Color balance is "off" quite a bit -- especially when using RGBS#2 (Green) ... And, it's off the same amount for Both 1.) the 720p/1080i QM internal color bars AND #2). Color test patterns from DVE(I think from DVE) which ken provided earlier in this thread, and which I used from Memory stick(1080i). However - Using the Following values listed below next paragraph -- Color balance is "right on the money" for both the QM 1080i/720p test patterns AND the color test from memory stick - especially note that everything is the same except for "MTRX" - MTRX is the only thing that changed.
In fact, I even tried "tweaking" both RYR~GYB and CBGN~YGN farther to see if I could find better values using the DVE Color test patterns from Memory stick(1080i), and couldn't find anything better -- even went outside Of SM and checked it via memory stick with the filters that come with DVE and using the tint/hue/sliders and it showed to be the best results(everything looks VERY good color balance wise) I could come up with using tint/hue sliders. :
YGN = 5
B). What I'm doing about it : Maybe there is a better solution, and I'm just "missing" some 480p vs. 720p/1080i specific setting. Note : also see PartII concerning P2170 YOF~CROP notes concerning why I don't think those are an issue involved with this. Or, maybe there's something else going on and I'm just chasing up the wrong tree, and/or there's something really odd going on with "my set" on this which others aren't experiencing.
Concering this issues, The following two choices (B#1+B#2) seem to be my choices for dealing with the issue while still being cable of achieving good(and for the most part excellent) color balance/accuracy for all my input sources. For various reasons(at least currently), I think the best choice for me is #1, which is what I'm currently doing.
B#1). Set MTRX=1, for best results concerning color accuracy/balance with 720p/1080i for use with my "default" Color axis user menu choice, which points to RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 - In other words, the values listed in section A#1. For 480p - set up alternate RYR~GYB settings of 15-13-0-0 using "monitor" -- as the 2nd "Color axis" setting selectable via user menu. Currently, This allows me to use "default" Color axis for every other source I am using except DVD player outputting 480p via component 5 input. And, since I generally watch DVD's with the player outputting 480p, most of the time it will stay "set" using the different RYR~GYB settings I have set up for it via "monitor" Color axis choice in user menu. Or, I might decide to output 480i from DVD player the vast majority of the time along with the "default" color axis setting from user menu more often for better Color accuracy - That would certianly completely take care of the issue for me -- at least for now ...
Unfortunately, however, I don't think this is going to work out very well if a desired 480p ATSC OTA source "pops up" again in my area. I could be wrong, but given I'm seeing the same thing from internal QM "ATSC 480p" test pattern as I am with NTSC 480p output from DVD player -- I expect that for best results for 480p from ATSC tuner I will probably also have to change the user menu "color axis" setting from "default" to "Monitor" for best color balance/accuracy when I'd switch to that channel, and then change it back to "default" when I switch channels elsewhere. And, there used to be a couple of those here, sending "Fox Widescreen" and 480p, but luckily it's been 720p and "FOX HD" since september 2004.
Also, unfortunetly - for 480p and "MTRX=1" I'm not getting as accurate results using AVIA/DVE or internal QM color bars/tests using RGBS=2 "green". That's even with setting up the best "RYR~GYB" settings as 15-13-0-0 for best results for this as well as also(thought I should try it and see what happens) trying to tweak CGBN~YGN for better results -- I couldn't find better values for CBGN~YGN BTW -- Still best at 6-6-5 ....
It is somewhat close howeever for 480p - For instance, If I change Color slider to "34", it's pretty much right on, although Balance using Red or Blue gun is pretty much spot on with Color=31, Hue=0. this might sound odd, but seemed like If there were negative values allowed/allowed/possible for GYR-GYB settings, I could probably have gotten it right on the money.
Also Note that at first, I was getting slightly better results for Blue/Red with Color=30 so I did a little "checking" and, given the servicecodes listing and what I'd experienced with other scan rates and experiments - was surprised to find that I could(and did) change P21704 SCOL to "31" from it's default of "32", and only effect 480p (and I THINK just via V5/V6 not ATSC but not sure) without effecting other scan rates/inputs. This way, I can leave Color slider at 31, and just change the Color Axis setting for DVD player, depending upon whether I'm sending 480i(use "default" setting= RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3) or 480p(use "monitor" setting - 15-13-0-0 - to account for the "MTRX" difference involved) from the player.
B#2. My other choice is to set MTRX at "0", which works perfectly for color balance for 480p and my "default" color axis setting(RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3). And, for 720p/1080i set up 2nd set of settings for "monitor" color axis setting to use with it. In this case, RYR~GYB 11-14-13-8 gave me best results with color bars via memory stick or internal 720p/1080i QM Color bars. Although not as close to "perfect" Color balance as I get for 720p/1080i with MTRX=1 and RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, it appears to be very close to it.
I don't find this option "workable" however, because of the issue with OTA/internal tuner and for best color accuracy needing to change the "color axis" setting in user menu everytime I (or other members of family/etc) switch to/from watching a 1080i/720p source(which is a lot) to a 480i ATSC or NTSC OTA source, which is also a lot. Almost, but It also doesn't quite give me the "extremely close to perfection" color balance for 1080i/720p that using MTRX=1 seems to give. And, I did even notice the slight difference last night during HD "Smarttravels" from PBS HD. Although, on the other hand, -- the "default" color axis(13-15-5-3) in this case is a tad bit more "in the ballpark" for 720p/1080i than using Option B#1.
Also note that again -- when exploring the options for Choice B#2, again, I tried "tweaking" CBGN~YGN (and adjusting RYR~GYB where necessary) for better results, in this case with 1080/720p, and, in this case with MTRX=0 couldn't come up with anything better for 720p/1080i than RYR~GYB 11-14-13-8 and CBGN~YGN -- You guessed it ... 6-6-5 ... Also, Best results did this time occur with "color"=31 and "hue"=0.
-------------------------------------------------Part II - YOF/CBOF/CROF(and just in case CBOP/CROP) notes
II#1). Just to see, temporarily changed 480p/1080i P2170-1 CBOF~CROF to 31-31, and the "pinkinsh tint" with my "grey background"(set up via MID1 #24BCOL=6(default 0 - black)) went away when selecting a 480p/1080i source in Left-Twin view window -- So, that's what was causing that --
In other words, if CBOF~CROF is set the same for all inputs/scan rates/etc, the "hue" of my Grey Twinview background doesn't change when selecting among sources in the left window - obvious that sources displayed in left window is where it's looking at the SM settings for the sources being displayed, not the right twinview window it seems. Of course, I'm not going to set CBOF/CROF based on that - so, just one of those quirks I suppose. Perhaps may be one reason why they decided to have factory default for BCOL=0.
II#2) Didn't have time/didn't run into any suitable B&W content to look at -- However -- I did check YOF/CBOF/CROF(and tried CROP/CBOP just for heck of it as well) with all sorts of extensively different values using 480p/720p/1080i color bars/test patterns from AVIA/DVE at 480p, Internal QM test patterns, AND color bars from DVE but via Memory stick/1080i which were posted early in thread --
Did that using RGBS 1/2/4/6/etc and checking for changes in Color balance, and also tried looking very closely to see if I could spot differences in color balance/decoding with color bars up with RGBS=7 -- I did pretty much leave Color slider at 31, as that's where I want color decoding/balance to be accurate.
Using those test patterns, from what I could tell I did not see any appreciable, or even noticable change whatsoever in color balance/color decoding no matter where YOF/CBOF/CROF(or CBOP/CROP for that matter) is set. So, on my set It seems, I don't think YOF/CBOF/CROF/CBOP/CROP has much of anything to do with the differences in color balance/color decoding I'm seeing between 480p and 720p/1080i. If it does have anything to do with it, the effect is extremely small, so little not to be noticable by my eyes at least, nor for example does it even change the speed/etc of "flashing" in the AVIA color test bars in any noticable fashion that I can detect.
For now, since I'd already checked it previously with B&W content/etc and ended up using the defaults, I returned YOF/CBOF/CROF to defaults after I was done playing around with it. I'll continue to look for improved settings for those in the future, however.