THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 2973 Old 01-22-2006, 09:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

A). For the set defaults, MID5 Columns #53~#56 are actually assigned to P2170-3 MIDE#16. -- It's really silly I think, as for instance, Columns #53~63 are all zeros at the factory defaults, however, #53~56 are assigned for MIDE for the different Pic modes for Twin-view feature ... #53=Pro, #54=Movie,etc. So, just something for XBR owners to keep in mind when deciding which MID5 column's to take over.

I want to understand what you are saying here. I don't get the reference to #16.

Further, you are right about Twin View MIDE pointing to MID5 #53-56. You can solve that issue easily: Defaults for MID5 cols 53-56 are all zeroes. I have designated col 63 permanently as all zeroes. So . . . simply set 2170P-3/MIDE for all Twin View picture modes to MIDE=63, and you have the exact equivalent setting -- all zeroes. Now cols 53-56 are available for other things.

There is a great deal of redundancy redundancy in the MID5 assignments. :-) A little consolidation opens up columns you can assign toy our own uses. Turns out I didn't think about this, as my set doesn't have the Twin View feature. Good that you brought that up, thanks!

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post #812 of 2973 Old 01-22-2006, 11:08 PM
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JeffD2.

2170D-3/JUMP should be the parameter you're lookin for to expand HD to fill the screen on the 36HS510. If you need to tweak vertical sizing and/or position on the expanded HD, some folks use the MID controls. I found the various sensitivities and relationships in those controls rather complicated and easy to screw up though, so I've been using 2170D-1/ASPT for vertical size and 2170D-1/SCRL for vertical position instead. I don't really know which is preferable. 2170D-1/ASPT and SCRL are signal and aspect-ratio sensitive on my TV (which is actually 16:9 rather than 4:3), so they can store separate values for these different sensitivities. Hopefully there's some more info about these and other possible controls in one of the various spreadsheets, so you won't be flyin totally blind. If you use ASPT and SCRL jot down the original values before changing them (including also the signal and aspect ratio), so you can put them back if you need to, because there appears to be no easy way to automatically reset the data back to the TV's original OOTB condition w/o removing crucial factory tweaks. DO NOT mess with the NVM resets! And safe SM-ing.

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post #813 of 2973 Old 01-22-2006, 11:17 PM
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Nitewatchman,

Tks for confirming that 720p is also effected by the CXA2171 controls. I'm still readin your and Ken's posts, tryin to digest it all, and will try to post back with a few thoughts soon.

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post #814 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I want to understand what you are saying here. I don't get the reference to #16.

In the section from my post you quoted, I meant 2170P3 #16 MIDE, where the MID5 columns are "assigned" - I.e. Where Twin View MIDE "pro" picture mode is "pointing to" MID5 Column #53 (all zeros). But thought that was clear? If it wasn't, this probably isn't going to help any, either - Sorry.

But, maybe, instead however you are reffering to another comment in my post you didn't quote, concerning P2103-1 #16 SSMD, and your comments about it in the last sentence of a paragraph(d) concerning 3dcomb settings in post #707 - I quote that paragraph below, for convienience :

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(d) For all S-video, composite-video, and RF-tuner 480i sources, the 3D comb filter separate color from luminance, and the 3D-COMB section has significant sharpness tweaks, nos. 14 and 15: VAPG and VAPI for vertical anhancement (generally not used, which means zeros); and nos. 17 and 18: YPFT and YPFG. In this case, YPFG can act as either a detail-reducer or enhancer, with no effect at YPFG=8. (Possibly 7; still experimenting.) Note that the 3D-COMB settings have no effect on all high-quality sources, such as HDTV, HDMI, and component inputs. Recommended: Set VAPG and VAPI to zero, YPFT to 3 and YPFG to 8. Make sure #16/SSMD is set to 3.

----------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

You can solve that issue easily: Defaults for MID5 cols 53-56 are all zeroes. I have designated col 63 permanently as all zeroes. So . . . simply set 2170P-3/MIDE for all Twin View picture modes to MIDE=63, and you have the exact equivalent setting -- all zeroes. Now cols 53-56 are available for other things.
!

Absolutely. I just didn't see any need to add another "all zeros" column. So, I use #53 for my "all zeros" column anywhere I want to use it, and I also have all Twin-View Pic modes set to "point towards" #53. #54~63 are thus available in my case for my own "settings" whatever I want to use them for. Thought I explained that, but perhaps not very well.

For that matter, haven't checked it to make sure, but if the servicecodes listing/PDF is correct, looks like I could use #49-* for my all zeros column(and for twin view) and then free up #53 for other uses as well.

* - Correction to previous post - I had thought the other <53 all zeros MID5 column indicated in service code file was #50, looks like I glanced at that wrong, as I now see its' #49.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

There is a great deal of redundancy redundancy in the MID5 assignments. :-)

You're not kidding ... I will Never have any use for the factory settings for the "vivid"/"standard" and "movie" pic modes, or likely the MID5 columns they "point towards" -- Only left "pro" MIDE #16 at default setting for reference for all inputs/scan rates/etc, as I took over all the other pic modes+using MID5 column#53~63 everywhere for 2170P3 #16 MIDE except for "pro" picture mode.

So, If I was a real "neat freak" or something, I could REALLY reorganize the MID5 table and free up a lot of Columns for my own use ..... I don't think I'll ever have a need for that, though(at least I HOPE not)

Like you, I have "movie" set up with different P21704 Gamma setttings, I use my settings+"standard" mode primarily, for most viewing and "vivid" for experimentation. One thing I have found is that it works very well for "comparing" new things you want to try when you have the "pic modes" set up the same way, except for your new "experimental" changes. With "pro", then "vivid" than "standard" right next to each other+ using standard and pro "for reference" and Vivid for "experimenting" makes it easy to see improvements or "problems" with new experimental settings. Then when I see improvments I like, I'll move them to standard+Movie pic modes.

Which reminds me, I think it's definitely worth the effort -- but what is a bit of a "pain" about "Hijacking" the pic modes, and also modifying the "image processing settings" concerning "adding" a new device that's using a input/scan rate/etc. I hadn't used before.

For instance, I added "memory stick" for the first time/used it for the first time about a month ago. Since it had been so long since I'd "hijacked" "Vivid"/"standard"/"Movie" for my own purposes for all the inputs/scan rates/etc. I was using at the time : in addition to setting P21703 settings to how I want them for all the pic modes for "memory stick", I had to check or modify such settings as the 2170p4 "gamma" settings for the memory stick pic modes as well as check to make sure any other settings(such as the relevant 3DNR settings for example) that had needed to be changed for making the pic modes "the same" as pro, or any other settings I'd modified aren't "picture mode" and "Input/scan rate" specific or make any changes when necessary.

Although I have good notes on this and can look at the servicecodes listing(to some degree), I went ahead and checked everything "relevant" anway, just to make sure I wouldn't miss anything. But, for the next time(such as if I ever use "HDMI" which seems likely), I should make an attempt to "streamline" my notes and note exactly which items will need to be checked or changed ... Maybe next time, although I'll probably still end up checking everything just to make sure ...

On another note relating to this ... Unlike 480p V5/V6 "settings" which I have changed I haven't changed the pic mode/image processing settings/etc for 480p ATSC from the internal tuner as I don't have a local station sending 480p. So didn't *think* I had a 480p source to use to be able to modify those --- However, I noticed last night that when using the internal test patterns located in "QM" that the 480p ATSC "specific" settings I checked were at their factory defaults. Therefore I think I should be able to use say, the 480p internal test patterns from "QM" to set all those settings so if/when a 480p OTA ATSC signal "pops up" I'll be able to use my "preferred" settings with it(well, except maybe for color decoding - more on that later)... Duh! Why didn't I think of that before ... Even another item to add to my "do it list" ....

Only thing is, you can't access user menu or "choose" which Pic mode is "active" when you have a QM test pattern up - I didn't check it but hope it's whatever pic mode you're using when you turn on the QM test pattern ... That may not be the case however, as for example I've also noticed that whether or not "default" or "Monitor" is selected from User menu "Color Axis" setting before the QM test pattern is turned on, It stays, or "reverts" to "default" anyway. In other words, when you turn on a QM test pattern, seems that only the settings for RYR~GYB for "default" are accessable - even if I'd had "monitor" selected just before going to the QM test pattern.

Well, my plan had been to make this a short post, sorry it didn't turn out that way! Especially as I have another post to do concerning more I found out about the "color"/color decoding adjustments last night ...

Jeff
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post #815 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 02:17 PM
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WOW,
I am noticing more problems with my hs420 set that i got a week ago. Last night while playing COD2 on my 360, i began to notice a green tint on a black backround when there is a light by the dark backround, when moving. NOTE: I only notice this tint while moving. When you are stationary or not moving there is no green tint. It as if when the black or dark image comes in contact with a white image, the white or light image becomes green over the dark image. It almost seems like lag or something with these colors. Does anybody have a clue what is going on here? I have searched for my problem on AVS and have seen a couple other people with a kind of similar problem. BOTTOM LINE is I am very dissapointed in these HD CRTs. I have owned 3 since christmas. I have owned 2 sanyos both with horrible geometry (that is pretty much impossible to fix.) I then turned to the sony hs420, expecting no problems, no distortion, and well a perfect set. I have been reading that is impossible to have berfect geometry for an hd crt. Well that is BS, I need perfect geometry, or at least something reasonable. (Read my other posts in this thread on my other problems that are unfixable unless you apply magnets.) WTF I am not applying magnets EVER.

I am a gamer who plays for cash and i just thought going HD would not be this bad of an experience. I keep reading how HD CRTs are the best for gaming, and how they have the best picture. I just cant take all these problems!!! I dont want to have to lug this 150 pound monster down the stairs, then exchange it and lug another one back up, and find even more geometry distortions, and other problems.

I think i am just going to get my money back and get an lcd a couple months down the road. This is unacceptable for me. I mean my 20inch SDTV is wonderful, I think i am just going to go with that for now.

I mean am i the one in a million who gets these horrible sets with horrible geometry, that are unfixable in the service menu!!??? IT SURE SEEMS THIS WAY.

ANY WAY/ End rant. I appreciate the help you guys have given me in this thread on some of my other problems. The fact is i have been in the service menu over 30 times and cannot seem to fix my problems at all.

If anybody would know how to fix this green tint i see from a dark backround, when a light backround moves at it (slowly or fast), I will really apprieciate any help on this. THANKS...

PS( I have tried different cables, I tried the other input, I tried playing in 480p, I tried another game, And it is still noticable. The only weird thing is i never noticed this tint since yesturday, when i had this set for about a week!) Thank you.
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post #816 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Tks for confirming that 720p is also effected by the CXA2171 controls. I'm still readin your and Ken's posts, tryin to digest it all, and will try to post back with a few thoughts soon.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and appreciate your posts on this so far. I'd read the discussions earlier in this thread related to CXA 21x1 settings and differences between ATSC/NTSC signals/etc, but it's been quite some time ago and I should review those again in more detail.

One thing I'm especially interested in hearing about is if other folks' are getting anything like the same sorts of results as I am on this with my set. Also, would be interested to know if other folks sets came with a MTRX default of 0 or 1, and perhaps if others are getting along the lines of what I'm getting with CBGN/CRGN/YGN as well.

I'm also wondering if I'll run into any similar issues if/when I use HDMI input and 480p or 720p/1080i sources. Looks like there are seperate settings for the values that might be important for HDMI for the most part, but I've learned to take the servicecodes listings with a grain of salt when it comes to my set and certian settings.

What I probably should also do "someday" is hook up one of my other external(STB) ATSC receivers* to XBR960 via component and see what happens, although to tell much of anything I'd need a station sending 1080i or 720p to put up color bars/test patterns to tell much of anything and I don't get the oppurtunity to come across that too often.

* - They'll output/upconvert or downconvert as necessary either 1080i/720p/480p or 480i as desired, doesn't matter what the source is sending.

Looked at it a little more last night, follows should hopefully explain it as well as summerize things. Sorry guys, I really *tried* to make this short as possible(it's not like I enjoy writing long posts or anything), but thought it better to post on this in as much detail as possible.

Part I - CXA2171 - MTRX - ATSC/NTSC or 480p vs. 720p/1080i - what's it all about?

A.) - The "evidence" -- From what I've seen it seems like the differences I'm seeing in color decoding/color balance between 480p vs 720p/1080i perhaps have more to do with 480p vs 720p/1080i than ATSC vs NTSC, and that the MTRX setting is the real "important factor" here, and that I really *need* to be able to use MTRX=0 for 480p, and MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i, but I can't do so, as only 1 value is available for all of those.

Could it be (and I do recall perhaps reading something about this) 480p is more using NTSC specs/Color space, and 720p/1080i is using ATSC specs, and perhaps that's why it looks like it should be MTRX=0 for 480p and MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ?

Consider the following.

A#1). Note that using AVIA/DVE Color tests+RGBS -- RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 (or 14-14-5-3 - haven't decided on that difference yet), gives me best results for color balance/accuracy with 480i NTSC, and 480i ATSC according to internal QM color bars for color balance using AVIA or DVE tests - i.e. sources that do not use CXA2171 MTRX/etc.settings. For 480i via component, it's pretty much right on with color slider=31, Hue=0, and no changes from the factory "o's" for UCOF/UHOF in P2170-3, nor was it necessary to modify SHUE/SCOL in P2170-4 from factory defaults. Note that I have RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 set up as the "default" color axis choice from XBR's user menu.

That's pretty much the case for S-Video+composite inputs as well. For Svideo however, for best color balance with Color=31, Hue=0, the factory defaults for YV/VC are UCOF=2, UHOF=3 - and that's exactly what is needed. For composite video sources, need to change Tint to G1 for best results.

A#2). With 480p, Using the following values and either AVIA/DVE color tests from DVD OR the 480p ATSC internal QM color bars -- and this is what I think may be signifcant here -- I get the same results for color balance from both 480p DVD+AVIA or DVE, OR 480p internal Test patterns : Color balance Looks very close to "perfect"(It's as close as it will/can get anyway) with these settings, I tried to tweak them farther, just to see, but things are "right as rain" with these settings, anyway. However, color balance is equally "off" via AVIA/DVE+DVD at 480p or internal 480p test patterns If I use the values listed farther below in section A#3 :

MTRX=0 (my set's default, although I have a feeling default should have been 1)
CBGN=6
CRGN=6
YGN = 5

P2170-4

RYR=13
RYB=15
GYR=5
GYB=3

Color=31
HUE=0

A#3). With 1080i/720p + using the values from A#2 above -- Color balance is "off" quite a bit -- especially when using RGBS#2 (Green) ... And, it's off the same amount for Both 1.) the 720p/1080i QM internal color bars AND #2). Color test patterns from DVE(I think from DVE) which ken provided earlier in this thread, and which I used from Memory stick(1080i). However - Using the Following values listed below next paragraph -- Color balance is "right on the money" for both the QM 1080i/720p test patterns AND the color test from memory stick - especially note that everything is the same except for "MTRX" - MTRX is the only thing that changed.

In fact, I even tried "tweaking" both RYR~GYB and CBGN~YGN farther to see if I could find better values using the DVE Color test patterns from Memory stick(1080i), and couldn't find anything better -- even went outside Of SM and checked it via memory stick with the filters that come with DVE and using the tint/hue/sliders and it showed to be the best results(everything looks VERY good color balance wise) I could come up with using tint/hue sliders. :

MTRX=1
CBGN=6
CRGN=6
YGN = 5

P2170-4

RYR=13
RYB=15
GYR=5
GYB=3

Color=31
HUE=0

----------------------------------------------------------

B). What I'm doing about it : Maybe there is a better solution, and I'm just "missing" some 480p vs. 720p/1080i specific setting. Note : also see PartII concerning P2170 YOF~CROP notes concerning why I don't think those are an issue involved with this. Or, maybe there's something else going on and I'm just chasing up the wrong tree, and/or there's something really odd going on with "my set" on this which others aren't experiencing.

Concering this issues, The following two choices (B#1+B#2) seem to be my choices for dealing with the issue while still being cable of achieving good(and for the most part excellent) color balance/accuracy for all my input sources. For various reasons(at least currently), I think the best choice for me is #1, which is what I'm currently doing.

B#1). Set MTRX=1, for best results concerning color accuracy/balance with 720p/1080i for use with my "default" Color axis user menu choice, which points to RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 - In other words, the values listed in section A#1. For 480p - set up alternate RYR~GYB settings of 15-13-0-0 using "monitor" -- as the 2nd "Color axis" setting selectable via user menu. Currently, This allows me to use "default" Color axis for every other source I am using except DVD player outputting 480p via component 5 input. And, since I generally watch DVD's with the player outputting 480p, most of the time it will stay "set" using the different RYR~GYB settings I have set up for it via "monitor" Color axis choice in user menu. Or, I might decide to output 480i from DVD player the vast majority of the time along with the "default" color axis setting from user menu more often for better Color accuracy - That would certianly completely take care of the issue for me -- at least for now ...

Unfortunately, however, I don't think this is going to work out very well if a desired 480p ATSC OTA source "pops up" again in my area. I could be wrong, but given I'm seeing the same thing from internal QM "ATSC 480p" test pattern as I am with NTSC 480p output from DVD player -- I expect that for best results for 480p from ATSC tuner I will probably also have to change the user menu "color axis" setting from "default" to "Monitor" for best color balance/accuracy when I'd switch to that channel, and then change it back to "default" when I switch channels elsewhere. And, there used to be a couple of those here, sending "Fox Widescreen" and 480p, but luckily it's been 720p and "FOX HD" since september 2004.

Also, unfortunetly - for 480p and "MTRX=1" I'm not getting as accurate results using AVIA/DVE or internal QM color bars/tests using RGBS=2 "green". That's even with setting up the best "RYR~GYB" settings as 15-13-0-0 for best results for this as well as also(thought I should try it and see what happens) trying to tweak CGBN~YGN for better results -- I couldn't find better values for CBGN~YGN BTW -- Still best at 6-6-5 ....

It is somewhat close howeever for 480p - For instance, If I change Color slider to "34", it's pretty much right on, although Balance using Red or Blue gun is pretty much spot on with Color=31, Hue=0. this might sound odd, but seemed like If there were negative values allowed/allowed/possible for GYR-GYB settings, I could probably have gotten it right on the money.

Also Note that at first, I was getting slightly better results for Blue/Red with Color=30 so I did a little "checking" and, given the servicecodes listing and what I'd experienced with other scan rates and experiments - was surprised to find that I could(and did) change P21704 SCOL to "31" from it's default of "32", and only effect 480p (and I THINK just via V5/V6 not ATSC but not sure) without effecting other scan rates/inputs. This way, I can leave Color slider at 31, and just change the Color Axis setting for DVD player, depending upon whether I'm sending 480i(use "default" setting= RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3) or 480p(use "monitor" setting - 15-13-0-0 - to account for the "MTRX" difference involved) from the player.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

B#2. My other choice is to set MTRX at "0", which works perfectly for color balance for 480p and my "default" color axis setting(RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3). And, for 720p/1080i set up 2nd set of settings for "monitor" color axis setting to use with it. In this case, RYR~GYB 11-14-13-8 gave me best results with color bars via memory stick or internal 720p/1080i QM Color bars. Although not as close to "perfect" Color balance as I get for 720p/1080i with MTRX=1 and RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, it appears to be very close to it.

I don't find this option "workable" however, because of the issue with OTA/internal tuner and for best color accuracy needing to change the "color axis" setting in user menu everytime I (or other members of family/etc) switch to/from watching a 1080i/720p source(which is a lot) to a 480i ATSC or NTSC OTA source, which is also a lot. Almost, but It also doesn't quite give me the "extremely close to perfection" color balance for 1080i/720p that using MTRX=1 seems to give. And, I did even notice the slight difference last night during HD "Smarttravels" from PBS HD. Although, on the other hand, -- the "default" color axis(13-15-5-3) in this case is a tad bit more "in the ballpark" for 720p/1080i than using Option B#1.

Also note that again -- when exploring the options for Choice B#2, again, I tried "tweaking" CBGN~YGN (and adjusting RYR~GYB where necessary) for better results, in this case with 1080/720p, and, in this case with MTRX=0 couldn't come up with anything better for 720p/1080i than RYR~GYB 11-14-13-8 and CBGN~YGN -- You guessed it ... 6-6-5 ... Also, Best results did this time occur with "color"=31 and "hue"=0.


-------------------------------------------------

Part II - YOF/CBOF/CROF(and just in case CBOP/CROP) notes :

II#1). Just to see, temporarily changed 480p/1080i P2170-1 CBOF~CROF to 31-31, and the "pinkinsh tint" with my "grey background"(set up via MID1 #24BCOL=6(default 0 - black)) went away when selecting a 480p/1080i source in Left-Twin view window -- So, that's what was causing that --

In other words, if CBOF~CROF is set the same for all inputs/scan rates/etc, the "hue" of my Grey Twinview background doesn't change when selecting among sources in the left window - obvious that sources displayed in left window is where it's looking at the SM settings for the sources being displayed, not the right twinview window it seems. Of course, I'm not going to set CBOF/CROF based on that - so, just one of those quirks I suppose. Perhaps may be one reason why they decided to have factory default for BCOL=0.

II#2) Didn't have time/didn't run into any suitable B&W content to look at -- However -- I did check YOF/CBOF/CROF(and tried CROP/CBOP just for heck of it as well) with all sorts of extensively different values using 480p/720p/1080i color bars/test patterns from AVIA/DVE at 480p, Internal QM test patterns, AND color bars from DVE but via Memory stick/1080i which were posted early in thread --

Did that using RGBS 1/2/4/6/etc and checking for changes in Color balance, and also tried looking very closely to see if I could spot differences in color balance/decoding with color bars up with RGBS=7 -- I did pretty much leave Color slider at 31, as that's where I want color decoding/balance to be accurate.

Using those test patterns, from what I could tell I did not see any appreciable, or even noticable change whatsoever in color balance/color decoding no matter where YOF/CBOF/CROF(or CBOP/CROP for that matter) is set. So, on my set It seems, I don't think YOF/CBOF/CROF/CBOP/CROP has much of anything to do with the differences in color balance/color decoding I'm seeing between 480p and 720p/1080i. If it does have anything to do with it, the effect is extremely small, so little not to be noticable by my eyes at least, nor for example does it even change the speed/etc of "flashing" in the AVIA color test bars in any noticable fashion that I can detect.

For now, since I'd already checked it previously with B&W content/etc and ended up using the defaults, I returned YOF/CBOF/CROF to defaults after I was done playing around with it. I'll continue to look for improved settings for those in the future, however.

Jeff
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post #817 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 02:53 PM
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^^ Ya'll able to keep with all this?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #818 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

In the section from my post you quoted, I meant 2170P3 #16 MIDE, where the MID5 columns are "assigned" - I.e. Where Twin View MIDE "pro" picture mode is "pointing to" MID5 Column #53 (all zeros).

My bad! I am so used to associating a *setting* number with the parameter name (MIDE) that I was confused by the *index* number 16, thinking it meant a setting value. Sorry, brain scramble!
Quote:


. . . concerning P2103-1 #16 SSMD, and your comments about it in the last sentence of a paragraph(d) concerning 3dcomb settings in post #707

I said this in error, associating it with 3D-COMB. You are right; SSMD *is* in 2103-1 -- and it should still be set to 3.
Quote:


Well, my plan had been to make this a short post, sorry it didn't turn out that way!

I've thought about saying that several times in my own posts. And then thought "Nah." Service-menu issues are not generally "short" issues, and so why should they be covered in short posts, eh?

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post #819 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Color test patterns from DVE(I think from DVE) which ken provided earlier in this thread, and which I used from Memory stick(1080i).

Yikes, I just read this, and I have to warn you: The use of memory-stick *color-calibration* patterns is unpredictable! I found that, if I set up the decoding matrix (RYR-GYB) with a known-accurate MS pattern in service mode, the pattern was displayed differently once I left service mode. I can't characterize the change, as I have avoided that method ever since. (I confirmed this change by viewing with the color filters instead of isolating the color guns, which can be done only in service mode.)

Instead I made a high-resolution (max bitrate) DVD of the same computer-generated color-bar pattern I once used from the MS, and used that through my DVD player. It jives almost exactly with the patterns on DVE and AVIA, so I am confident that the TV is set up correctly at this point. And a similar pattern displayed from MS I think is correct -- until you put the TV into service mode, and then something changes. (Or the reverse -- it's been a while . . .)

Further, although it seems apparent that the MS image follows the same path in the published block diagram as HD digital video, I don't know just how much is common. For one thing, it is absolutely certain that there is a 1080 X 1440 frame buffer for those MS images, determined by empirical testing way earlier in this thread. And I can't say what the overall color-matrix is or what it should be, NTSC or HD. Maybe it is neither. It's not a big issue with me, since I don't take JPEG-image display very seriously at this time. I just play with it or use computer-generated grayscale patters for focusing and geometry, which are fine for this. (Again, see previous posts.)

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post #820 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

So, If I was a real "neat freak" or something, I could REALLY reorganize the MID5 table and free up a lot of Columns for my own use ..... I don't think I'll ever have a need for that, though(at least I HOPE not)

Each of us who has this urge can skin this cat in different ways. Here was my reasoning:

I was tired of the confusing redundancy in the MID5 columns, and I have not seen any need for having "reserved sections" of the MID5 chart for specific input/scan rates. I do, however, think in terms of what is being sharpened and by how much. So I set up a hierarchical sharpening scheme for the top 14 columns or so, working backward from #63 (POP=63).

So minimum effect is col 63, all zeroes. Then: Very fine sharpening (of very fine detail) increases if MHYL is set to 3 (no clipping) and MHYE is stepped from 1 to 7. The settings for MHCL and MHCE just echo the same for color -- although I think this is nearly undetectable. That accounts for cols 63-56. Then, beginning with 55 I return to MHYE = 1 and set MHYO to 1, lowering the video frequencies affected by the sharpening and making it coarser. Then from 55-50 MHYE steps from 1 to 6, keeping MYHO at 1. Thus from 63 to 50 there is a steady increase in sharpening and coarseness, and that makes experimentation easy: Put up a test image, and then, starting with POP=63 (or MIDE=63 in 2170P-3), decrement the value from 63 downwards until the desired effect is achieved, and lock in that value for MIDE. So, for example, col 60 (MHYE=3) is used for several different signal conditions and modes. And I know what I am getting every time I choose col 60 -- conservative, very fine sharpening. Those top 14 columns are not going to change!

Below 50 I have a couple of custom columns (49, 48) for experimentation with slight vertical sharpening: I duplicated col 60 but added MYVL=3 plus either MYVE=0 or MYVE=1. I use them for the HDMI 480p from my Panasonic S97 DVD player, to a small advantage. But this is on probation; easy to switch back to col 60 if I want zero vertical sharpening.

If I come up with other uses, I can add columns from 47 downwards. Since the basic sharpening settings (cols 63 > 50) follow a *system,* it's easy to experiment without getting confused or waylaid by duplicate columns. Why from the top down? I just super-cautiously wanted to leave in-place as many of the original settings as I could, although I now see that this has virtually no value in the future. I have the charts, after all, and I dispise most of the settings for Vivid, Standard, etc. That's all. I could have started from col 0 and gone *up* from there. The chart in post #707 reflects the above system.

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post #821 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 05:24 PM
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Does anyone know the Button sequence to enter the *factory* mode (not *service* mode) on the SXRD sets (the RPTV's, not the projectors). I am trying to get access to the 3D Gamma matrix on these sets (which should be similar to the Ruby and Q004).

Thanks,

Jon
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post #822 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 05:25 PM
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I would first like to say that this forum for TV setup is the BEST.
Also, I have done this on the 34XBR800 and knowing that settings are different, I have had great success in adjusting mine pretty close to my satisfaction.
But, I do have a problem now.........I had moved recently and the TV had reset somewhat to a earlier state??? Is this something that certain settings revert back to factory or was it a screwup with the save (I know I had saved my settings, because it was fine for about 2 month before it was moved and power had gone out in that time and didn't affect it).
Any quick comments would be appreciated. TY
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post #823 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Yikes, I just read this, and I have to warn you: The use of memory-stick *color-calibration* patterns is unpredictable! I found that, if I set up the decoding matrix (RYR-GYB) with a known-accurate MS pattern in service mode, the pattern was displayed differently once I left service mode. ........

.......... I can't characterize the change, as I have avoided that method ever since. (I confirmed this change by viewing with the color filters instead of isolating the color guns, which can be done only in service mode.)
.)

Yes recall reading about that, from earlier in thread. However, along with internal QM test patterns/color bars it's all I currently have available to use with 1080i/720p unless I catch a station sending 1080i or 720p puting up color bars.

Also can't grasp how "errors" due to memory stick/DVE filters/in and out of service mode/different signal paths/etc/etc. would explain why just changing ONE value (MTRX=0 for 480p, MTRX=1 for 1080i or 720p) makes for pretty much perfect color balance per the test patterns from several different sources at either 480p or 720p/1080i, in EVERY case, while at the same time, MTRX=0 makes things quite a bit off with those different test patterns from different sources in the exact same way for 720p/1080i, same thing for MTRX=1 and 480p.

Changing the MTRX values from 0~1 is going to be exactly the same as errors introduced by DVE filters Outside of SM that is going to exactly match(or more or less from what I could tell) the "errors" introduced by using the MS inside SM? or, something with the signal path involving the QM 720p/1080i color bars? I didn't realize that would be anywhere near likely, if even possible, would like to learn more, however.

Note that in my case, again, for my ability to compare them, I want to stress that I got the same results from the Color bars from memory stick as I did from the internal QM 1080i/720p color bars. I just looked at it in SM with the DVE fitlers VERY quickly(I'll check it again, don't know If I'll get a chance to do that tonight), but seemed to have gotten, For whatever reason pretty much the same results with the DVE filters in and out of service mode - Now, I wasn't looking for any really "slight" differences here however.

I guess I must not be explaining myself very well about this. The differences I'm seeing in Color decoding 480p+720p/1080i with the same MTRX and RYR~GYB settings are perhaps not "huge" difference, but it's not "slight" issues either. Just look at the different values I'm needing for RYR-GYB for instance with the same MTRX value), and the differences are evident with the Internal QM test patterns, not just the MS, which is something I used additionally.

For instance, when balancing with Green gun, with the QM test bars at 1080i/72op or 480p ( and again I think this is important to note as well that avia/DVE color tests via DVD+480p match perfectly what I'm getting with the QM 480p Test bars on this, and the same thing is true with 480i QM color bars+AVIA/DVE via 480i DVD) It's VERY different "shades" of Green for the color bars that "show up" with the green only gun, that match almost PERFECTLY by changing the MTRX value to "0" for 480p test patterns, and "1" value for 720p/1080i, using 13-15-5-3 for RYR~GYB. Same thing if you look at RGBS #6 and the Y-G-R with color bars up from any source .......

The "difference" is also noticeable with program material as well, especially as I noted earlier when it comes to "natrual looking" greens, as well as via comparisons of program material with another set I know(pretty sure anyway - see previous info on this ) Is set up for proper color decoding.

First I thought maybe my DVD player is doing something strange, but again, what is happening with the test patterns match with 480p "ATSC" QM patterns+Avia/DVE Color patterns from DVD outputting 480p, and note that on Color decoder adjustments using AVIA/DVE test patterns on another set but with the SAME DVD player, what is required for it's various color decoder settings match perfectly for 480i and 480p - exactly the same.

On that particular set, it's setting similar to "MTRX"(It's called DABL specifically) can be set completely differently per scan rate(different settings also available for Svideo/composite indpedant from internal tuner/etc), just as all the other color decoder settings can be, including different values for the RYR~GYR "rough" equivlents. Again on that set/receiver, calibrated it for 1080i/720p with color bars from a broadcast ATSC source(checked it with another), and 1080i/720p/480p ATSC requires DABL=1EH, ANY NTSC source requires DABL=1CH, including 480P from DVD - which actually makes perfect sense where ATSC vs. NTSC is concerned, and it actually came from the factory with 1EH setup for 1080i/720p+480p via component(although that didn't work for me for 480p via DVD), and "1CH" for everything else.

It's problem is, "somewhat" similar in that it needs "DABL=1EH" for ATSC output form my OTA ATSC receiver, for 480p, but it won't let you set a different value for 480p from the DVD player, which requires the DABL=1CH.

[ Following section updated with corrections and add'l clarifications ]

What's seemingly different about that as compared to this issue I'm getting with the sony, is I'm needing different results from ATSC/NTSC 480p sources with the toshiba --- or, instead of ATSC vs. NTSC perhaps it might must be more because of different output of the STB Vs the DVD player? although the factory defaults of DABL=1EH for 480p/720p/1080i via component seem to suggest it might be more likely a NTSC vs ATSC colorspace thing .....

However, with the sony XBR960 - the 480p from that SAME DVD player+DVE/AVIA color tests perfectly "match" the pattern labeled "ATSC" 480p from the QM test patterns, BUT the same value "MTRX"(very simiar to "DABL" on the Toshiba) won't work "right" for 480p AND 720p/1080i. MTRX=0 works perfect for 480p, RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, CBGN~YGN 6-5-5 -- either via DVD+AVIA or DVE tests OR the internal QM test pattern, MTRX=1 "messes that up" but seems to work perfect for 720p/1080i, Same RYR~GYB, Same CBGN~YGN -- Just looking for the "obvious" might indicate/ Might explain why the Servicecodes file says it uses MTRX=1 for specifically -- 1080i/720p via ATSC or V5/V6(no mention of 480p), and why there is also a listed column for "others" and "HDMI 1080i" ... and yet, I can't set different values for 480p vs. 720p/1080i for my set ....

Anyway -- I'll hopefully be able to catch some color bars up someday from a station when I can check the XBR so I can confirm more about what is going on with this to a greater degree --

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

The chart in post #707 reflects the above system.

And I very much like+appreciate the chart -- printed it out a week or so ago after the update(well and before the update as well) ---- I was able to easily understand from it what you were talking about the incremetal "sharpening" steps with the different Columns .... - and a great idea -- I'm using a few of the "most suggested" columns currently -- For instance, here's one of them from my "XBR960 service code changes.doc file :

Column #57 (Ken Tech's 1/15/06 suggestion for 720p and 480i/480p Component sources ) :

#0 POP - 57(0) - not saved temp setting - set to whatever column of table you are working in)
#1 MHLY - 0 (0)
#2 MHLC - 0 (0)
#3 MVLY - 0 (0)
#4 MVLC - 0 (0)
#5 MHYR - 0 (0)
#6 MHYL - 3 (0) - *
#7 MHYE - 3 (0) - *
#8 MHYO - 0 (0)
#9 MHCR - 0 (0)
#10 MHCL - 3 (0) - *
#11 MHCE - 3 (0) - *
#12 MHCO - 0 (0)
#13 MVYR - 0 (0)
#14 MVYL - 0 (0) - *
#15 MVYE - 0 (0)
#16 MVCR - 0 (0)
#17 MVCL - 0 (0) - *
#18 MVCE - 0 (0)

Currently using the (more or less) middle of the road values for columns per suggestions from another of your recent posts -- #59 for SD, #58 for 1080i(differs from above that MC, #57 for 720p+480p MHYE/MHCE=2 instead of 3) --- and when I get a chance I'll probably clear out everything from #54~63 and do that, or something simliar/along those lines .. but right now, I have some columns set up #60~63 I was using+experimenting with previously I'm not quite sure I'm completely done with yet ....

Jeff
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post #824 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts, and appreciate your posts on this so far. I'd read the discussions earlier in this thread related to CXA 21x1 settings and differences between ATSC/NTSC signals/etc, but it's been quite some time ago and I should review those again in more detail.

Don't put an excessive amount of stock in my earlier remarks. It sounds like those controls might work a tad differently than I originally speculated.

Still readin... and still trying to catch up...

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post #825 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 07:51 PM
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THANKS ADU! I have a stack of papers ½" thick of the pdfs and "how to" sheets. I noticed you were a participant in that thread. Again, thanks for responding. I'll let you know how it works out.
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post #826 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

. . . while at the same time, MTRX=0 makes things quite a bit off with those different test patterns from different sources in the exact same way for 720p/1080i, same thing for MTRX=1 and 480p.

Just a note to say that I haven't yet wrapped my mind around the relationship between the "color matrix" settings of RYR~GYB and the definitions of the HDTV vs NTSC color standards as switched (I believe) by the MTRX value. I think it works like this: HDTV is based on entirely different coordinates for the RGB primaries in a global colorspace, and, for example, a "pure red" on HDTV is not quite the same as the same numerically-defined color displayed according to the NTSC standard. It's a slightly different red! But we have only one CRT in our TVs, and so to accurately display both, there are some remappings of color from one color definition to the other. This choice is made in MTRX, as I seem to have read before, and everything is Kosher *if* the HD video is supplied according to the real HDTV standard (as broadcast is). (I wonder what color standard is applied to digital SD broadcasts! Stations in the Portland, OR, area are starting to broadcast multiple subchannels, some with SD material.)

I don't believe that one standard can be converted to the other by fiddling with the RYR-GYB settings. It's a *different* matrix, where the actual primary colors and their max intensities (the gamut) are different. The RYR-GYB "matrix" adjusts the cross-color rendering for accuracy: GYB intensifies green and steals from blue; GYR intensifies green, stealing from red; RYR simply intensifies red, stealing from nowhere; and RYB increases red at the expense of blue. All of these adjust a "balance" in the derivation of intermediate colors as the eye sees them, given specific drive voltages. That's why you are equalizing the intensities of those color bars against each other and absolute gray *as seen by you.*

I ask myself frequently, Why is the color-rendition of this particular movie/program different between the SD broadcast and the HD simulcast of same? Both usually appear to be satisfactory, but frequently the shadow-area colors are handled better by HD and the reds are a little cooler. Sometimes the grays are different even though they are identical when Color is reduced to Minimum. Is the difference in the TV? Is there a "matrix mismatch"? Is the station at fault? I don't agonize over this, really, but I feel like there's way more going on that I (we) have control over!

I have not tinkered experimentally with the MTRX settings because it looks like it's working okay for my set. I haven't yet digested your overall experiments and their conclusions or your implied questions. That may still take a while, forgive me!

KenTech
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post #827 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

^^ Ya'll able to keep with all this?


This is why I asked for a Wikipedia article on the subject, or a dedicated webpage. I'm gone for a few hours and there is so much new information that I cannot possibly keep up.

[sighs]
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post #828 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jediphish View Post

I'm gone for a few hours and there is so much new information that I cannot possibly keep up.

It's called binge-posting, a special quality of AROC posters that should be cherished! (AROC = Anal-Retentive Obsessive-Compulsive.)

Nightwatchman -- Since you *are* tinkering with image-rendition, I hope you are restarting your TV after 15-30 min warmup, as suggested in post #717. It makes a serious difference in some DA-4-based sets, really! I can really see the difference in, for example, the Matrix DVD via component-480i. I don't know where else it might be important, as in the XBR800 sets.

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post #829 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 09:25 PM
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[quote=KenTech]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Just a note to say that I haven't yet wrapped my mind around the relationship between the "color matrix" settings of RYR~GYB and the definitions of the HDTV vs NTSC color standards as switched (I believe) by the MTRX value .....

.... I have not tinkered experimentally with the MTRX settings because it looks like it's working okay for my set. I haven't yet digested your overall experiments and their conclusions or your implied questions. That may still take a while, forgive me!

Forgive me for going out of order on quotes from your posts -- If I'm understanding you correctly -- Are you saying on your set, MTRX is set for "1" for 720p/1080i via ATSC receiver, and "changes" to "0" for 480p via say DVD?

If so, wonder why mine wasn't like that from the factory(it was "0" default for EVERYTHING I could "switch to") -- such as if say it's getting the values from "somewhere else" --- And also, - I wonder why I can't/couldn't set it for "0" for 480p, and "1" for 1080i/etc ? Tried it more than once, it changed "everywhere" to the new value when I changed the value from the default of "0" to "1", for instance ...

And No problem - I do want to emphacize that I have not really reached any "conclusions" of any sort about this really --- Just reporting on what I've found+observed via any means available to me via "poking around a bit", as more than anything else it just seems to me something isn't "right" on my set with that MTRX value of "0" that was the set default being used for "everything". 720p/1080 HD and 480p DVD.

Agree 100% with your entire post, looks like we're thinking pretty much the same thing. Just from what I've seen seems like to me I need to be able to use different MTRX values for 480p DVD/NTSC than is the case with 720p/1080i, but it isn't letting me "do that" with 2171CXA "MTRX".

What I'm really wondering about as well(and is a big part of why I've been posting about this) is if there is another "setting" or lookup table somewhere else involving this I can't find/don't know about which may be set incorrectly that might explain why you, and/or others aren't experiencing at least some sort of indication of issues with this but I am at least noticing that something *may* be off about it ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(I wonder what color standard is applied to digital SD broadcasts! Stations in the Portland, OR, area are starting to broadcast multiple subchannels, some with SD material.)

Have wondered about that as well - According to one of their engineers One station(a statewide PBS Network in KY - KET) here which varies between 6SD services and 1HD+2SD services(subchannels) depending upon time of day/program schedule/etc -- distributes it's ATSC complaint transport stream from centrally located MPEG encoders(just one for each service/subchannel) to 16 stations statewide via Microwave links with an OTA backup ...

At the transmitter sites --- for the digital station unique PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) info for that station is added, but otherwise, more or less the datastream is just "passed on" to the RF transmission plant without a decoding/reencoding process --- For the Analog station however at each site, there is a decoder at the transmitter site which decodes the stream and outputs NTSC which is sent to the analog transmitter, and one of those services(called KET1) is used for the analog station. So, "theoretically" the "color"(or anything else, basically) one sees via the analog station should be "pretty much" the same(including fleshtones/etc) as from the KET1 subchannel from the digital station -- And, it is on the XBR960, allways has been .. After calibration of color decoder/etc. it is on my Toshiba set as well ... Actually, one of the stations the color bars I calibrated the Toshiba's decoder with which I mentioned earlier were from one of these SD subchannels, but upconverted from 480i and output at 1080i from my receiver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I don't believe that one standard can be converted to the other by fiddling with the RYR-GYB settings.

Absolutely, I agree 100%, including your comments on this I didn't quote. I was just "trying it" for say 1080i when using "MTRX=0" to fudge it and see what happened - MTRX=0 was after all the set default on my set for instance both 480p(NTSC) and 1080i ..... [update - at least that's what it was "showing" while in I'm in SM] ... Again, this is why I don't understand how I could have had a "MTRX" value of "0" for default on my set that is supposed to work "right" with 720p+1080i via ATSC and 480p via DVD, and I can't make it "1" for 720p+1080i, and "0" for 480p.

Jeff
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post #830 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Nightwatchman I hope you are restarting your TV after 15-30 min warmup, as suggested in post #717. .

Yes, doing the restart thing. It's been quite a while since I did too much tinkering with it or making many comparisons, and I've been happy with the settings you've found that I haven't done much to mess around with them.

So far with the new recommended settings, I pretty much just plugged them in, did some quick "comparisons" to the old settings+pro defaults and that's about it ...

It might be a while before I get around to more closely looking at things with the new settings, but I will look at them a little more "closely" ...

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post #831 of 2973 Old 01-23-2006, 11:57 PM
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Folks -- don't spend time trying to deciper my previous posts on this ....

In short - It appears the color matrix is "automatically" switching to the right matrix for 480p NTSC, and also to the right matrix for ATSC 720p/1080i depending upon if source is 480p or 720p/1080i, and it is working and switching automatically On my set(at least right now) ... But, it's only doing that auto "switch" when you are NOT in SM.

It is not making that "switch" to using the "right" color matrix for HD vs NTSC when I am in SM(at least that's how it's working on my set). Also noticed that Even though I set MTRX=1 (I even used write/enter) last time I was in SM last night --- Noticed it defaulted back to "0" when I went into SM for the first time since then.

It looks like when I am in SM, unless I change it, it's "staying" with the Matrix for NTSC no matter what, even if I switch to a 1080i source. Looks like you simply have to "do it" yourself and set MTRX=1 if you want to check from within SM Color balance with the QM internal 1080i color bars look like or, a test pattern with memory stick(with the necessary "cautions" for using those as ken mentioned of course), Or, while in SM, set it/make sure its set at MTRX=0 if you want to check, say 480p NTSC from DVD.

So, seems to me what changing the MTRX setting is "useful for" is so you can manually set it for looking at color test patterns for 480p from say NTSC DVD (MTRX=0) or 1080i/720p(MTRX=1) while in SM -- at least that's how it's working on my set, since it is only making the switch to the right color matrix for ATSC HD/NTSC 480p "automatically" Outside of SM.

On a whim, tonight turned on the set(it had been off for a couple of hours), powering up in SM -- first thing I noticed was that MTRX was showing "0" again, everywhere, even though I set it to "1" last night.

Here's part of what I did to check this out :

For all of the below, RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, CBGN~YGN= 6-5-5, Color slider 31, Hue=0.

From within SM -- Left MTRX=0 and checked AVIA color tests output from DVD/AVIA at 480p- Pretty much perfect with using RGBS 1/2/4/6, with DVE filter, I mostly see error in the DVE filter with "green" - Saturation "flahsing box" flashes, but Hue doesn't.

Then, leaving MTRX=0, looked at 1080i QM internal test pattern, and Memory stick+looked at "DVE-Color-Chart-X4.jpg, posted earlier in thread.(I know it's not the best thing to use, but I think it worked for my purposes). As I've experienced before with this, it was very evident that Color balance was "way off" for both with MTRX=0 but, setting MTRX=1 from within SM indicated pretty much perfect Color balance from those 1080i test patterns. Note that this time, I just left it at MTRX=0, however.

Then, I powered down the set. Turned it back on, not going into SM. Went to Memory stick, checked out DVE-Color-Chart-X4.jpg with DVE filters. Pretty much close to "perfect" - or at least very close - VERY different than with "MTRX=0" in SM. Went to the DVD at 480p, pretty much perfect, except again I see the same thing with "green" DVE filter I did when in SM.

Boy, do I feel stupid. Oh, well -- OTOH, glad I stuck with it until I figured out what was going on. Part of the reason why it took me so long to figure this out I think is because I wasn't trusting that pattern from memory stick "enough", and I was "thinking" my changing "MTRX" values was "sticking" in a static way after I left Service mode. Don't know how it turned out that I hadn't noticed it wasn't, until now.

One thing good that did come out of all this for me is, I was able to improve color accuracy/decoding for 480p+720p/1080i by changing CBGN~YGN from 4-5-5 default to 6-6-5.

I guess the only question I have about this now Is about 480p ATSC vs. NTSC - Just as with 480p from DVD, "MTRX=0" appears to be the correct setting for the internal QM color bars for 480p ATSC, as opposed to "MTRX=1" being correct for 720p/1080i internal QM color bars. Wonder if this would perhaps be a good indication that 480p ATSC uses/needs NTSC color matrix? OTOH, that has not been my "experience" with the color decoder settings on my Toshiba set+output from Zenith HDV420 receiver and its differences for example between 480p from the ATSC receiver, and 480p from a DVD Player ...

When I bring up the 480p QM internal test pattern, it says "480p ATSC" on screen, and it also does seem to be the case it would(or should) be the "same"(more or less) as 480p from the ATSC tuner, as all the P21703 settings/etc. remain at factory default when I'm looking at that test pattern, and in fact I haven't changed those for 480p ATSC - that isn't the case when I bring up 1080i test pattern for instance -- my changed P2170-3/etc. settings "show up".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Update]

Thought I should add --- thing is though --- At one point during my poking around on this, I had checked 480p DVD with AVIA outside of SM with DVE filters after just being in SM and changing MTRX from "0" to "1". And, With RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3, CBGN~YBGN 6-6-5, Hue=0 Color=31-- If I recall correctly(which I may not be), I Thought it was more "messed up" than for instance what I noticed with the error I noticed for DVE Green filter tonight, when I "knew" that it was using the correct color matrix for 480p DVD NTSC(equivelent to MTRX=0 if you are working in SM) ...

That, BTW led me at the time to dismiss the possibility it was "switching automatically" outside of service mode .... Probably not -- but, wonder if it is perhaps a possibility that under some circumstances/etc(such as if in some cases you had very recently set MTRX=1 in SM and immediately powered down set+powered back up), the automatic switching to the right color matrix for 480p/720p/1080i outside of SM doesn't allways occur, 100% of the time?
[end update]

Jeff
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post #832 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 04:08 AM
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Stranger and stranger... Based on some other posts I've been reading, it looks like this parameter could work differently depending on whether you have the CXA2151 or CXA2171 chip. [EDIT: ...or not. See later posts below which seem to suggest that both chips behave similarly with respect to MTRX.]

FWIW, whatever value I last leave CXA2151/MTRX at on my 34XBR800, that's what comes up next time I power on. This works regardless of whether the new value is written to memory or not. The CXA2171 may work differently though. [EDIT: Again see posts below, as this isn't really the whole story. And the value will "revert" to it's proper setting if you don't directly re-enter service mode.]

It's possible your TV could be storing two different values... one for 480i/480p, and one for 720p/1080i, for example. Maybe you can change/store different values for 720p/1080i, but 480i/480p always defaults back to 0. You may also need to write the new value for 720p/1080i to memory (while displaying a bona-fide 1080i signal), unlike on my TV. [Edit: again see below, as this guess was also off the mark.]

On the otherhand, if it seems to be working correctly, maybe you should just leave well enough alone.

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post #833 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 10:47 AM
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ADU,

I'm just glad I'm not the only one that has seemed to notice some "odd" behavior with this, at least to some extent.

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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

It's possible your TV could be storing two different values... one for 480i/480p, and one for 720p/1080i, for example.

Seems to be that's what is happening on my set -- but not when you're in SM. I still have to change it to "1" to get proper matrix for 720p/1080i when I'm in SM, and the value that "shows" up doesn't change when you are in SM when you switch between say, a 480p and 1080i source.

Or - and just some wild guessing about the "possibilities" here, but perhaps with my set at least it may be more something along the lines that the "MTRX" value from the SM is not even generally used by CXA2171 chip when you are outside of SM, and it's done via hardware/etc. instead, and when you enter SM, something "switches" that feature off on the chip, which has it then "look" the MTRX value and whatever you change it to(when you're in SM). And maybe, just maybe that doesn't allways "stick" perfectly when you enter/exit service mode, and sometimes in certian cases it may still be looking to the "MTRX" value in SM when you're outside of SM. Perhaps, this, or something along these lines might also explain why we don't seem to (generally) have to use Mute-enter to get it to "stick" ....

BTW, I'm pretty sure I checked it from 480i ATSC source(both broadcast+internal 480i ATSC test pattern), and don't think 480i, even 480i ATSC is effected by the CXA2171 SM settings, including "MTRX". Only 480p,720p and 1080i seem effected.

Update: Just confirmed with 480i broadcast source+internal QM 480i color bars that 480i isn't effected by "MTRX", at least on my set by changing the value while in SM. :end update

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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

You may also need to write the new value for 720p/1080i to memory (while displaying a bona-fide 1080i signal), unlike on my TV.

Could be, but I more suspect it was already "set up" that way on my set, and was already switching between "1" for 720p/1080i and "0" for 480p outside of SM -- I just "didn't know it" for sure as I hadn't checked any patterns from MS(the only 720p/1080i source I have other than broadcast stations) outside of SM Until very recently and was looking at test patterns from within SM, and that's where I still have to set MTRX at either 0 or 1 "manually".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

FWIW, whatever value I last leave CXA2151/MTRX at on my 34XBR800, that's what comes up next time I power on. This works regardless of whether the new value is written to memory or not. The CXA2171 may work differently though.

What's funny is, maybe I'm just losing my mind, but -- I could have swore that I checked that - more than once in fact, and noticed it working the same way as it is with your set - But that is NOT how it happened the last time. Instead, had set it at "1", but it had defaulted to showing "0" next time I powered up in SM - But, the set had been off since then, for several hours at a time. That wasn't the case on earlier occasions when it "looked like" it was sticking - on those occasions, the set wasn't off for more than a few seconds.

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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

On the otherhand, if it seems to be working correctly, maybe you should just leave well enough alone.

I agree. Thing is though, in my case for 720p/1080i - the best way I have to check color balance is to go into SM and look at the Internal Test patterns/Color bars located in the QM PATN section of SM for 720p/1080. And, to do that properly(and to be able to use RGBS) from within SM, I have to set MTRX=1 manually to get the proper color matrix for HD.

I may be remembering it wrong -- but seems like at one point I found it's possible to put up a test pattern from the internal QM test patterns - then hit "mute/enter", and it will "stick" when you go outside of SM. I might try this(but unfortunetly just with ther RGB filters that came with AVIA/DVE) with the 720p/1080i/etc. color bars and see what I get, as I've come to pretty much "trust" those internal test patterns.

Update: Just confirmed that I can get the QM patterns to come up outside of SM by the above method. I just tried this with the Color bars for 1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i and checking Color and to see if it switched to the right MTRX with DVE filters outside of SM - Every time, it switched to right matrix, even at one point while I was in SM looking at the 480p color bars, I switched MTRX to "1" in SM and left it there for set power off. In this case the "Correct" MTRX was chosen outside of SM, and afterwards when I reentered SM, MTRX had returned to "0".

When I 1080i via this method - didn't change MTRX from "0" in SM, even though I had 1080i Color bars from internal test patterns up, and noted it was using the "wrong" color matrix while in SM, as usual given MTRX value of "0" --- Then, powered off set, turned back on outside of SM checked it, it chose the right color matrix -- turned off the set, went back into SM, and, as expected MTRX still said "0"(and of course with the "wrong" color matrix)..

HOWEVER -- And this seems strange - I did the exact same process with 720p Color bars as I did/explained above for 1080i - HOWEVER - When I powered the set back up for the "last" time in SM -- it was showing MTRX=1 with the 720p color bars!!!! Even though, it was showing "0"(and with the wrong color matrix) for the first part of the test, before I went outside of SM and checked it.

So, I do the process again first with 480p color bars ... This time, when I power back up into SM for the final part of the "test", it shows "MTRX=0" as it should ...

Thinking I should check 1080i again, I do so just to see what happens this time and if it was different than the first time --- Low and behold it WAS different this time! This time, it showed up with "MTRX=1" when I reentered SM for the final part of the test, whearas the first time, I did the same test, it showed up as "0", even though "1" (or the correct color matrix) was used when I was outside of SM .... VERY strange ...

BTW, Another thing I tried the first time I entered SM this afternoon was to make sure I had the internal tuner on a 1080i station before entering SM. When I powered up in SM, as expected, it showed MTRX=0". But, tried that again the last time I entered SM, and THIS time it said MTRX=1 ! How very strange.

Of course, just to make sure I wasn't losing my mind, I switched between 480i/480p/720p/1080i sources(including color bars) while within service mode, and as usual, it's still not switching "MTRX" while you are IN service mode.

end update

Jeff
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post #834 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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ADU and Nightwatchman: Regarding the CXA2171 chip in the DA-4 chassis, my full-color parameter chart printout indicates the following, as I read it. (I hope this isn't too redundant with what you've already concluded.)

(1) The MTRX parameter is explicitly listed as NOT memorized after you make changes, i.e. you can't WRITE it. Its value is determined on-the-fly by the video mode plus digital signal flags.

(2) For 720 or 1080 from either broadcast (ATSC tuner) or component inputs (V5, V6), its value is 1 = HD standard.

(3) For "Others" it is 0 = NTSC standard. Looks like this includes SD digital, but I suppose one might confirm this by watching it change as you change inputs. Unless it's "frozen" in service mode, which is what Nightwatchman concluded in post #833.

(4) For HDMI it depends on a flag in the signal, and it can be 1 or 0. Here is where your favorite DVD player via HDMI can flip the color matrix for HD, if it's designed to do so. If the flag ("uTiny/$6D_00, byte1/bit6") is 0, MTRX is 0 (NTSC); if it's 1, MTRX is 1 (HD).

It seems quite clear that, for these sets anyway, MTRX is not under your control except *temporarily* in service mode.

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post #835 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 01:00 PM
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Nitewatchman,

Be careful with all the powering on and off in such a short space of time. I think there could be a risk of overheating your degaussing coil.

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post #836 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 01:06 PM
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Ken,

Your post makes alot of sense. I too am now noticing the same "reverting" behavior on my 34XBR800 (with the older CXA2151 chip) that Nitewatchman is seeing on his 34XBR960 (with the newer CXA2171 chip).

If I switch CXA2151/MTRX to a different setting in the service mode on my 34XBR800, then power back on again into service mode, the change remains intact (because it's like I never left the service mode to begin with).

But if I power back on without going into the service mode, MTRX reverts to its original value.

Easiest way for me to see this is by setting MTRX to 3, which has a distinct green cast.

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post #837 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

ADU and Nightwatchman: Regarding the CXA2171 chip in the DA-4 chassis, my full-color parameter chart printout indicates the following, as I read it. (I hope this isn't too redundant with what you've already concluded.)

Not redundant at all, I think your post is an excellent summary concerning how it works with CXA2171. And, that's the way I read the chart as well, just wasn't sure it really "worked" that way with my set, previously -- now(finally) I am sure.

At this point -- The odd thing about it I'm getting with my set is -- such as noted in the tests I did per update of my last post : Sometimes even though outside of SM it seems to be allways using the correct MTRX value for any given source - such as "1" for 1080i HD source from ATSC tuner and "0" for 480p via component V5 -- When you power up in Service mode while that source is still selected, MTRX value *may* or *May not* be using the correct value for that same source -- I've seen it occur both ways, even with the same source+checking it twice over a time span of about 15 minutes.

Couple of other thoughts or clarifications :

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

3) For "Others" it is 0 = NTSC standard. Looks like this includes SD digital, but I suppose one might confirm this by watching it change as you change inputs. Unless it's "frozen" in service mode, which is what Nightwatchman concluded in post #833.

I think SD digital (OTA ATSC, or even 480i via component) must be using NTSC standards[update] For color. While that seems strange since we know OTA SD 480i digital is using ATSC standard for the most part(such as 8VSB for transmission/channel coding, as well as PSIP/etc) --- It's also using MPEG2(which is also "part of" ATSC standard but can be used w/o rest of ATSC as well), and for instance -- what is SD digital/MPEG2 stream via my Dish network SD receiver is NTSC, in this case output via my receiver as analog NTSC via s-video or composite video outputs. [end update]

From what I can tell, looks like 480p (via DVD or perhaps even ATSC -depending upon what the source/including broadcast is using, perhaps) looks to be at least be "mosty" NTSC color as well. For instance, 480p DVD is apparently using and provides accurate color balance with "MTRX=0", and 480p internal QM color bars(which is showing up as "480p ATSC input in SM") is using/needs "MTRX=0" for accurate color balance.

What I concluded is that 480i ATSC sources -- broadcast or the internal 480i color bars(or anything else except perhaps 480p that "fits" in that "others column" for that matter - including 480i via component) is not effected by changing "MTRX" setting from within SM, or by changing CBGN/CYGN/YGN for that matter. Perhaps it could be affected outside of SM, perhaps depending upon flags/metadata sent via the MPEG2 stream/etc. by the broadcaster.

What I also concluded is :

a). From within SM, 480p/720p and 1080i are effected by changing "MTRX" value.

b). In SM, or outside SM, CBGN/CRGN/YGN effects 480p/720p and 1080i.

Also -- note that color accuracy with AVIA Color tests via 480p DVD outside of SM improved via my slight modification of CBGN/CRGN/YGN, which also didn't effect color balance with 480i Component video via DVD/AVIA color tests.

Quote:
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It seems quite clear that, for these sets anyway, MTRX is not under your control except *temporarily* in service mode.

Yes, absolutely. And, I would add(at least on my set) it also seems quite clear that within service mode, it's a necessary control to have access to as :

#1). It is apparent(at least on my set per my observations) that unlike is the case outside of SM -- when you are working in SM, it is not properly detirming the correct value and switching "on the fly" to that correct value depending upon source, or digital signal flags/etc - at least for the internal QM test patterns, Memory stick, OR 480p via DVD. You have to do that/make sure it's set properly for the source you are using(per the codes in the service code listing), Manually.

#2) WHY It's useful to be able to modify MTRX in SM for the "correct" value , per #1), above is -- You need to be able to modify MTRX value in SM while checking or modifying CBGN/CRGN/YGN for improved Color balance for 480p/720p/1080i sources in order to select the proper MTRX value which corresponds to the source you are using -- For instance, "0" for 480p, or "1" for 1080i HD color bars --- In order that you are using the correct color matrix (ATSC or NTSC/etc.) for the given source. From what I've seen, the "correct" matrix value for instance is "1" for 1080i/720p, "0" for 480p via DVD or any other 480p source of Color bars/tests.

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post #838 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Be careful with all the powering on and off in such a short space of time. I think there could be a risk of overheating your degaussing coil.

Yes, thanks for the reminder. Probably should have thought more about that instead of all the actual "work" I have to do today -- before doing some of that so quickly ... And if I'd had the time should have waited longer than that, or even better waited until I had the time -- perhaps 15 minutes between power cycles ...

Generally it was probably at least 5 minutes or so between most power cycles to check the SM values, when in SM change RGBS/etc, but I did do it a few times much quicker than that, especially after going out of SM, powering up/checking pattern with DVE filter than powering down+powering back up In SM ..

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post #839 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Be careful with all the powering on and off in such a short space of time. I think there could be a risk of overheating your degaussing coil.

No chance of this with Sony DA-4 chassis and likely many other Sony models. A built-in timer (or an old-fashioned PTC resistor in series) prevents degaussing for quite a while after it first happens. You can hear when it's active (BZ-z-z-t). Even my ancient 1978 RCA monitor was no problem. If you turned off the set and turned it on within 5 minutes, no degaussing.

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post #840 of 2973 Old 01-24-2006, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

No chance of this with Sony DA-4 chassis and likely many other Sony models. A built-in timer (or an old-fashioned PTC resistor in series) prevents degaussing for quite a while after it happens. You can hear when it's active (BZ-z-z-t). Even my ancient 1978 RCA monitor was no problem. If you turned off the set and turned it on within 5 minutes, no degaussing.

I noticed that with mine... I have had to turn it off and on a couple times within 1 - 2 minutes, and it only degaussed itself once.
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