THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 29 - AVS Forum
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post #841 of 2962 Old 01-24-2006, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

#2) WHY It's useful to be able to modify MTRX in SM for the "correct" value , per #1), above is -- You need to be able to modify MTRX value in SM while checking or modifying CBGN/CRGN/YGN for improved Color balance for 480p/720p/1080i sources

Well put! Are you suggesting that a good way to set up CBGN/CRGN/YGN balance is to put up the internal color bars for (e.g.) HD, make sure MTRX=1, and then touch up those settings with the one-color guns, leaving RYR-GYB alone? If this doesn't make sense according to your recent experience (thank you!), what do you suggest as a procedure? I haven't yet tried to fiddle with these values. (Rain is predicted here for Saturday. [Rubs hands together])

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post #842 of 2962 Old 01-24-2006, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

JeffD2.

2170D-3/JUMP should be the parameter you're lookin for to expand HD to fill the screen on the 36HS510. If you need to tweak vertical sizing and/or position on the expanded HD, some folks use the MID controls. I found the various sensitivities and relationships in those controls rather complicated and easy to screw up though, so I've been using 2170D-1/ASPT for vertical size and 2170D-1/SCRL for vertical position instead.................

PERFECT! I can't thank you enough for this tip. I can now pass pure 1080i from the STB directly to the TV without the cable box (SA3250HD) do any scaling (it would down convert to 480p when IT did the scaling). I just recently got an upconverting DVD player which I can NOW take full advantage of. Also I didn't have to fudge with any of vertical size or position settings. It really couldn't have gone any smoother.

A cold beer and a toast to ADU! THANK YOU!

PS- I and a few others around the internet have a problem with the memory stick icon and "access" flashing in the bottom right corner of the screen. Not all the time, and not in any given time pattern. Anyone have a fix or disable for that?
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post #843 of 2962 Old 01-24-2006, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Well put! Are you suggesting that a good way to set up CBGN/CRGN/YGN balance is to put up the internal color bars for (e.g.) HD, make sure MTRX=1, and then touch up those settings with the one-color guns, leaving RYR-GYB alone?

I'm guessing this is probably going go to go more quickly than you might be thinking Ken -- Careful though as that's a if I ever heard one

I'd think that should work -- and makes sense -- I also do think it's a good idea to check what you have with your CBGN~YGN settings currently, as well as the new settings you come up with at 480p via DVD and/or internal color bars/MTRX=0, and both 720p+1080i via internal color bars/MTRX=1.

From what I'm getting, I think with the "best" CBGN~YGN values you should see the same thing for all those scan rates which CBGN~YGN effects(480p/720p/1080i) - and, with best settings for CBGN~YGN, and the same RYR~GYB settings for everything -- what you are getting color balance wise for 480p/720p/1080i should also "match" what you are getting from those scan rates/inputs that aren't effected by CBGN~YGN settings -- Of course the goal here being "perfect" or as near perfect Color balance for all sources/inputs/scan rates/etc.

And, perhaps the best procedure to use might not necessarily be the same for everyone for various reasons(I'll get into these later). Perhaps for some it might be better to use 1080i test pattern and MTRX=1 to tweak CBGN~YGN, or might be better to use 480p DVD and MTRX=0.

What I actually did, in this order was :

#1). To "tweak" CBGN~YGN -- Leave the RYR~GYB(13-15-5-3) alone and use AVIA(DVE would work as well of course) color tests from 480p DVD via component input and RGBS=1/2/4/6 with MTRX=0. My factory defaults for CBGN/CRGN/YGN were : 4-5-5. My new values are 6-6-5.

Note that unlike with RYR~GYB and using AVIA or DVE with one-color guns -- changing ANY value of CBGN/CRGN/YGN effects what you get to some degree(in some cases to more of a degree than others) with the tests with other two "one color guns" -- So, you'll have probably have to go back through looking at RGBS=1/2/4 several times while "touching up" all 3 settings ...

#2). Then, I went to the 1080i internal color bars, Changed MTRX=1 and using RGBS in the same fashion tried to see if I could Improve the settings for CBGN/CRGN/YGN that I got for 480p DVD. I couldn't Improve them - that may be more because I think I was able to do it more precisely with AVIA than I could with the internal color bars --- especially with red gun, but what I'm getting for 1080i(MTRX=1) very much seems to "match" what I'm getting with 480p(MTRX=0).

#3). Tried the 720P internal color bars in same way as #2, still wasn't able to improve anything -- Not that it needs improvement - From what I can tell, it's really right on the money.

Notes:

So, It looks like(from what I'm getting with this at least) Color balance using the one gun approach for #1 and #2, or #1 and #3 should produce "Matching results", for 480p vs 720p, or 720p vs 1080i or 720p vs. 1080i. In other words, given you have accurate color set up with say 480i DVD component with your chosen RYR~GYB settings --- with those same RYR~GYB settings, and finding the "best" CBGN~YGN settings as well -- I think the color balance should also be accurate for all 3 guns used 1 at a time, and look the same via color bars for all three scan rates 480p(with MTRX=0), or 720p(with MTRX=1), or 1080i(with MTRX=1).

Note that on my set -- I was getting pretty much perfect results with DVE or AVIA Color tests via DVD 480i component input with RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3. But, with 480p DVD via AVIA/DVE, and the factory CBGN~YGN settings, It was noticably a bit off from that(even outside of SM) Mainly was evident with tests with "blue" only or "red" only gun - It's now pretty much identical for 480i/480p given the new values I'm using for CBGN~YGN.

So, you might not even want to change CBGN/CRGN/YGN from the factory values If your 480p DVD via component is "perfect", as changing those for 1080i will effect 480p as well -- In other words - If your 480p is "perfect" now, 720p and 1080i should be as well -- But, You might must just want to check 720p/1080i with internal QM Color bars with RGBS 1/2/4/6 to make sure.

Besides CBGN~YGN values being used for 480p and not 480i concerning any differences there might be between 480i vs 480p DVD -- the other things I can think of that might be involved if they don't match color wise with the same RYR~GYB setting might be if DVD player is outputting slightly different color for 480p than it does for 480i, or perhaps something involving 480p specific HUE/TINT offsets in user controls or 2170P3 UCOF/UHOF. Also, note that I noticed on my set - even though the factory default was the same for 480i/480p/720p/1080i via component but noticed even SHUE/SCOL in 2170P4 has a 480p component "specific" value that doesn't apply to say 480i via component or 720p via internal tuner. Even though the service code listing seems to not necessarily indicate those P21704 values have such "scan rate" specific values.

In my case I think I was also able to detirmine for sure DVD player I'm using was outputting same color for 480i and 480p per adjustment with it and use of AVIA/DVE for adjusting color decoder in another set which happens to have scan rate specific color decoder settings. As, for example, on that set for both 480i and 480p from this DVD player the Color decoder settings needed to be exactly the same, and produced matching results with AVIA/DVE color tests for both 480i and 480p. And, where The sony is a bit different in that 480p also is "effected" by CBGN~YGN, whearas 480i from DVD at least, doesn't appear to be.

Jeff
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post #844 of 2962 Old 01-24-2006, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

#1). To "tweak" CBGN~YGN -- Leave the RYR~GYB(13-15-5-3) alone and use AVIA(DVE would work as well of course) color tests from 480p DVD via component input and RGBS=1/2/4/6 with MTRX=0. My factory defaults for CBGN/CRGN/YGN were : 4-5-5. My new values are 6-6-5.

In my case, the output from my Panasonic S97 component jacks for 480p is dreadful! Much cruder than for the same at 480i and for HDMI at 480p. So it's out of the picture! But I'm curious what I get for the internal HD pattern and maybe HDMI/480p. I'll figure something out. The rest of the method (1080i, etc.) seems exactly right.

BTW, I believe these three parameters, CBGN~YGN, are gain ("GN") controls for the three components of the affected video, already known as Y, Cb, and Cr. Y is luminance alone, and Cb and Cr completely determine color hue and saturation along a blue-yellow and red-green axis, respectively. So their adjustment will not track with RGB adjustments elsewhere, as they are a totally different way of specifying an image. These TVs seem to process everything as YCrCb right up to the last stage before the CRT, where, of course, it must be converted for the three R, G, and B guns. Another name for component video is "YUV." Accordingly, the chip we're discussing, the CXA2171 or equivalent, is designated as "YUVSW," the YUV switch, I presume. It takes inputs from just about everywhere in the block diagram. From there, signals eventually find their way to the CXA2170 chip and thence to the CRT driver board.

Implication of above: If you are satisfied with image brightness (intensity of white), you should probably leave YGN alone. That overall parameter is best adjusted elsewhere, e.g. 2170P-4/SPIC (sub-Picture). You can further differentiate RF from CV/YC in 2103-1/SCON.

Some definitions hold that YPbPr is for analog signals and YCbCr indicates digital versions of same. The Sony DA-4 block diagram confuses YCrCb and YPrPb, showing the former as the designation at the component inputs but also after A/D conversion. But YPrPb appears at the output of the TASC tuner. Huh? Assume nothing!

Nowhere can I find any reference in the block diagram to the internal pattern generator, no chip, no module. So I don't know where it inserts its signal.

As one who has meddled with Lab color settings for images in Photoshop, a form of YPrPb, I can say that the adjustment of Pr and Pb is not nearly as intuitive as is RGB manipulation. You have been warned!

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post #845 of 2962 Old 01-24-2006, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

BTW, I believe these three parameters, CBGN~YGN, are gain ("GN") controls for the three components of the affected video, already known as Y, Cb, and Cr.

I think you'll believe that even more if you use them.

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Y is luminance alone, and Cb and Cr completely determine color hue and saturation along a blue-yellow and red-green axis, respectively. So their adjustment will not track with RGB adjustments elsewhere, as they are a totally different way of specifying an image.

Absolutely, that's component video for you. What I noticed with my "differences" between 480i and 480p AVIA/DVE tests using RGB guns individually was mainly that with 480p with the "Blue" gun only, and "Red" only balance was off(but neither by a whole lot), With the "green" gun it was much closer to being accurate, but still was off a bit.

Just to see, I tried to change RYR~GYB RYR~RYB most specifically just to see how it would work for an "improvement", but that didn't really quite "work" to my satisfaction. And, adjusting Blue saturation(with Color slider or P21703 UCOF) didn't quite work as well as I wanted either - "Hue" for Blue was still pretty much right on with user control set to "0" anyway.

keep in mind that this same player via calibration of color decoder settings on another set calibrated perfectly "the same" for both 480i/p via component connection.

So, I thought what OTHER possible controls would let me perhaps improve things with 480p that might actually work and do something "different" than hue/color saturation sliders or 2170P3 UCOF/UHOF, etc. ? For me, Slight changes to CBGN/CRGN seemed to have done the trick ... Not only for 480p, but 720p/1080i as well. If it HAD of couse "messed up" 720p or 1080i from the internal tuner, I would have had to have tried something else -- instead, though, it *equally* improved things for 480p AND 720p/1080i. In fact, I noticed right off the more "natural" look to Color on 720p/1080i broadcast sources.

Now, I don't expect that will necessarily be the case for everyone, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

That overall parameter is best adjusted elsewhere, e.g. 2170P-4/SPIC (sub-Picture). You can further differentiate RF from CV/YC in 2103-1/SCON.

Factory setting for "SPIC" on my set was probably the worst single "adjustment" from the factory of all the settings I've come across. First thing I adjusted.

So, imagine if the set defaults could be so off for "SPIC" how they could also be off, if perhaps only just a little bit for CBGN/CRGN as well ... maybe even YGN, although I did not change/need to change that one ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Some definitions hold that YPbPr is for analog signals and YCbCr indicates digital versions of same. The Sony DA-4 block diagram confuses YCrCb and YPrPb, showing the former as the designation at the component inputs but also after A/D conversion. But YPrPb appears at the output of the TASC tuner. Huh? Assume nothing!

Nowhere can I find any reference in the block diagram to the internal pattern generator, no chip, no module. So I don't know where it inserts its signal.

Yes, I was reading and following along with the discussion and looking at the block diagram/trying to decipher it on this earlier in thread at the time you guys were talking about it. Not sure there really is much, if any any real difference between YpbPr/YcbCr - at least where pbPR+cbCr and "color" is concerned, but who knows ...

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As one who has meddled with Lab color settings for images in Photoshop, a form of YPrPb, I can say that the adjustment of Pr and Pb is not nearly as intuitive as is RGB manipulation. You have been warned!

I think I tried to say a little bit about how it's not very "intuitive" above in my last post -- but, at least for me, it wasn't an extremely difficult thing either, as the values didn't need to change much. Wanted to try to say more about that, but would have been very difficult to explain, and I didn't really take extremely specific notes concerning what exactly "happened" either ...

For instance -- You can't just adjust CRGN with say "Red" gun without effecting what "happens" if you were looking at "Green" gun AND even the "blue gun" (if I recall to a lesser degree) as well, ... You just have to keep "moving" between them (RGBS 1/2/4 AND I found looking at RGBS #6 helped me as well) and checking to see with all 3 guns on indivdually to get a good idea of all the "effects" caused by a change in value + or -1 for CBGN/CRGN or YGN(and again, I did not have to change YGN). Then again, I didn't find it THAT difficult -- Honestly, it took me maybe 7~10 minutes to find the values I'm using for CBGN~YGN = 6-6-5 given the factory defaults of : 4-5-5, and only a few more mintues on each scan rate trying to "improve" those just to see if I could ... and again, I couldn't, and there really wasn't a need to ...

Using the AVIA color tests, for the most part (and I'd think DVE would have worked just as well) I think did help so I could be more "precise" about it, however, as just looking at "standard" Color bars and doing this, as maybe it's just me, but at least I find to be more difficult to be as precise -- especially with "red Only" gun+trying to match as closely as possible the "hue" as well as brightness of the L+R "side" of the pattern that shows up ....

I don't know why this is given various "errors" that may have been introduced which you've mentioned, but also, those DVE Color bars on memory stick/1080i also seemed to work awfully well for me, with MTRX=1, inside SM as well as checking it with DVE filters outside of SM. Using those also indicated that I could find no better setting for CBGN/CRGN than what I found at 480p via DVD with AVIA,(or - not even if I moved the Hue or Color sliders 1 value to Left or right) and also seemed to indicate the same thing I was seeing with the internal QM 1080i+720p color bars.

Anyway -- As they say "YMMV"(your mileage may vary), and certianly it may turn out to be completely different for you ---- It's really no big deal, if you don't get an improvement with it, they probably shouldn't be changed from the defaults anyway.

Jeff
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post #846 of 2962 Old 01-24-2006, 11:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Factory setting for "SPIC" on my set was probably the worst single "adjustment" from the factory of all the settings I've come across. First thing I adjusted.

So, imagine if the set defaults could be so off for "SPIC" how they could also be off, if perhaps only just a little bit for CBGN/CRGN as well ... maybe even YGN, although I did not change/need to change that one ...

When my set was new, I had to set up the black level for Brightness=31 by boosting 2170P-1/SBRT from the idiotic 16 as-purchased to nearly 38, and then I redefined the three _DRV settings for more appropriate white levels for Picture=31. Black crush was gross out of the box! Yet several other settings were and are still perfect -- Hue and Color, for example, for most inputs.

I believe different groups of default settings were specified by different committees at Sony. They didn't talk to each other. They're in different cities, even.

My greenish-yellow shadows for HD had to be tamed by large changes in 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF. What were they thinking? And I have used SPIC to balance the apparent "brightness" of the picture among the inputs. HD was much too bright, and 480i thru HDMI too dim. Sheesh! All water over the bridge, now . . .

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post #847 of 2962 Old 01-25-2006, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
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So What Are Coring and Limiting?

In various descriptions of the service mode parameters provided by Sony, we see the words coring and also limiting or clipping. As an electronics engineer, I understand limiting/clipping: Pass a signal up to a certain amplitude, then no more. If it's instantaneous, it's clipping. In the context of image manipulation, it means: place a limit on how much of a specific effect will be applied. I have elected NOT use limiting, preferring to see the results of experiments where effects are applied in a *linear* fashion.

Examples of where it is implemented: 2170P-3/VMLM (limits amount of velocity modulation) and in the MID5 table where the code ends in L, e.g. MHYL.

But coring? Its effect is subtle, but I have wanted to understand it. Than I stumbled across a definition at videohelp.com in their glossary:

For noise reduction:
Coring is used to remove fine detail information that does not contribute significantly to the detail of the picture but which adds noise to the image. Imagine the detail information viewed on a scope. About the baseline you'd see primarily the noise information, with the detail extending beyond that. Now imagine that you sliced (or cored) this signal so that only the information above the noise on the baseline came through. You would be left with most of the detail information intact but with much of the noise information removed. The coring adjustment determines how far from the baseline the detail information removed. You want to use just enough coring to reduce the noise in the picture but not so much that the fine detail in the image is affected.

Right! I think Sony means threshold, below which no effect is applied, like inverse-limiting at the *low* end of the intensity scale.

So, imagine the following example: a video picture of an ancient castle wall of rectangular stones, with a bit of gray sky at the top. (Think Rudy Maxa's Travels in Europe.) Let's use sharpening as an example of an effect.

The detail in the stones (sandy, grainy texture) has a brightness range of, say 5%, the cracks between the stones 20%, and the edge between the top of the wall and the sky 75%. If I LIMIT detail enhancement, a certain amount is applied to the stone texture, 4 times as much to the cracks, but NOT 16 times as much to the sky boundary - that might cause outlining or overshoot big-time. So I limit it to, say 10 times as much as the stone texture. The example can be extrapolated to other enhancement parameters; you get the idea: Apply up to this much, but no more.

It appears that coring might mean: Don't apply any effect until a threshold is *exceeded.* Example from the stone wall: Set coring so the brightness range of detail has to exceed 10% before it is sharpened. So the stone texture (5%) isn't changed at all, but the cracks (20%) are sharpened, and so is the sky boundary at 75%. Of course limiting can also be applied, making the effect quite complex: Start enhancing at 10% but stop at 50%, for example.

To keep the effects I have been experimenting with linear, I have tried my best to set any coring and limiting to zero, i.e. no effect. Some charts I have for earlier TVs (e.g. XBR2 series) show OFF = 0 with increasing amount as you go from 1 to 3 (e.g. VMCR). But I have no specific descriptions for the MID5 coring parameters; I have presumed that 0 = no effect, but I've been fooled before.

Bottom line: For these nonlinear effects, one cannot *assume* that 0 = no effect. In the case of limiting, 3 = no effect. For some other nonlinear parameters (2170P-3/SHF0) 1 seems to inhibit the effect, and 0 enables it. Go figure. Same for some of the bandwidth or low-pass filters: 1 or 3 is the inhibit setting, not 0.

So I will run a few experiments using test patterns of varying contrast to see if I can confirm the zero settings for these coring settings, and I'll report back.

Arguments for applying these nonlinear parameters:

(1) Limiting: CRT spot is finite in size and is a mushy little blob. Therefore enhance sharpness of fine textures, which are at a disadvantage, but lay off obvious bright edges and boundaries.

(2) Coring: Constant video noise that is generated in the signal chain somewhere will be enhanced by sharpening low-level texture, so sharpening the picture will just make it grainier-noisier-scratchier. Suppress sharpening until there is some real video detail that needs it.

Comment: Trouble is, (2) usually looks really *false,* sort of "pasty," and modern "3D" dynamic noise reduction is much better, averaging grain-noise over several frames to smooth it out (it's random) while retaining real image texture (unchanging from frame-to-frame). Some of this is already built-in to these Sony sets. I see coring as superfluous, so far.

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post #848 of 2962 Old 01-25-2006, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

^^ Ya'll able to keep with all this?

Is it just me who's shaking my head- this thread gives new meaning to the term complexity
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post #849 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 12:53 PM - Thread Starter
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After I wrote the previous article, I ran some controlled experiments to confirm the effects of the coring parameters and what settings disable them.

I put up a still from Title 17 on DVE (city office buildings and sky) and temporarily adjusted the MID5 column that was active to MHYL=3, MHYE=7, and MHYO=1, to maximize sharpening of the image. I noted that, as I varied the coring parameter, MHYR from 0 to 3 and back, sharpening of the fine grain in the sky was suppressed at MYHR=3 and increased as I backed off to 0. Sharpening of the high-contrast detail on the buildings was not affected. This is evidence that the coring is at zero at MHYR=0, and that is the setting I recommend in my published chart. Nice to finally understand it! It seems to work just like I described in the article sort of a pasty smoothness I dislike.

Next I put up a horizontally-stepped grayscale pattern (vertical bars), reverted to the normal settings for sharpness, set ClearEdge VM at Maximum, and watched what happened as I varied 2170P-3/VMCR from 0 to 3 and back. I went from VM=Max to VM=Off and back to make sure I saw the effect of VM. Result: VM has no effect on the low-contrast boundaries between the grayscale steps at VMCR=3, and the effect increases as you lower VMCR to 0. VM on high-contrast boundaries (another pattern) was not affected. Conclusion: VM coring is off at VMCR=0, the setting I have been using and recommending. But now we know for sure that it's Off!

The effects of sharpening and/or VM seem most natural when applied evenly across the contrast range. Although I can see a point in, perhaps, *limiting* these effects for high-contrast detail, I can see no justification for doing so on low-level detail, and so I will continue to recommend coring parameters be set to 0 (= Off).

I note, now that I've been sensitized to the subject, that there are coring parameters in the 3D-COMB group: DYCO, DYCG, DCCO, DCGA, YHCO, and YHCG. (O = coring amount, G = gain.) But I'm not going to spend any time with these any time soon, as they apply only to SD analog broadcast, CV (composite), and YC (S-video) inputs and don't affect the high-quality sources I use. Further, some preliminary tinkering reveals no big changes to images when some of the parameters are wildly varied. So they're low priority for now.

Silimar, easier tests confirmed that the "limiting" parameters have minimum effect when set to 3. That, too, is what I had believed but hadn't rigorously confirmed, but it's easy to see in simple tests.

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post #850 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by williamtassone View Post

Is it just me who's shaking my head- this thread gives new meaning to the term complexity

Sorry, but this *is* the deep end of the pool! Lifejackets can be rented at the concession stand. Mention "Sony service mode" to the guy behind the counter, and he'll give you a big sympathy discount. :-)

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post #851 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 03:38 PM
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Lots of thoughts, but little time to post about all of them, so I'll just comment on a couple of them.

KenTech,

Thanks for the info+for doing the tests on "coring"+ it's effects with VMCR/etc.. I am wondering if there is anything that may be useful for reducing sharpening effects of "high contrast" boundaries.

Also, If I ever get around to it, I might check out DYCO, DYCG, DCCO, DCGA, YHCO, and YHCG a bit, as I do still use analog OTA via RF and SD via Dish network receiver+S-VHS deck via svideo. Just in case I might find some small changes beneficial.

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My greenish-yellow shadows for HD had to be tamed by large changes in 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF. What were they thinking?

Isn't it interesting the differences we get from these sets in some cases? I've not had any sort of issue with anything like that, with any input/scan rate/etc - even when I've went and "looked for it". As mentioned earlier, only thing I've noticed any sort of issue concerning my CBOF/CROF set defaults involve the very slight change in hue in my Grey background I have set up for "Twin view" when I select 480p or 1080i sources in the left window.

So, don't know what they were thinking but perhaps with one exception(720p, not 480p or 1080i, interestingly enough) the set's defaults for CBOF/CROF for my set seem to be either close, or right on the mark. Shadows/blacks are 'black" not contaminated with other colors. Except for the seemingly odd factory default for my set of CBOF/CROF=31/31 for 720p -- My set defaults for everything else for YOF~CROF are exactly as in service code listing.

Although I didn't actually "check it" in any specific way, when I was adjusting 2171CXA CBGN~YGN to vastly different values in order to quickly detirmine which scan rates/inputs those controls effect --- I noticed that I could imagine it's possible that "vastly different settings" for CBGN~YGN might significantly effect what you'd need for CBOF/CROF. Again, just speculating as that might not be the case since I didn't specifically check it, and only was looking to see what inputs/scan rates were effected by CGBN~YGN.

I can say the small changes I actually made to CBGN/CRGN for actual use did not require different CBOF/CROF settings. Just speculating a bit, but it seems like "different" greyscale, and/or perhaps even a different adjustment of HV control on flyback transformer for different sets could perhaps also be other factors involved that might explain why different folks may find they might need "different" CBOF/CROF settings.

Last night I went back for about the third time(or was it 5th?) and checked CBOF/CROF settings for several scan rates. I mostly checked it by setting color slider at maximum and slightly increasing brightness slider so I could more easily see what was going on. With 480i/480p from DVD I used dark, or mostly "dark" test patterns, such as THX Optimizer "brightness" test screen. For 1080i, luckily I have a couple of stations here which send black(along with a small ID bug) on their 1080i HD subchannels when they aren't sending programming on it and are in 4-channel SD multicast "mode".

I found - as has been the case previously -- by looking at this by eye, I couldn't improve on the factory CBOF/CROF settings for 1080i or 480p. Certianly -- looking at "black" with color all the way up, I could see the difference if I lowered CROF from the factory default of "47" for 1080i to say "44" - Even though I thought "44" looked like the best value, I couldn't really tell for sure by "eyeballing it" whether "44" or "47" was the better setting, so I left it at default(47).

Also note that even if I set CBOF/CROF to 31/31 for 1080i - I wouldn't say I am really seeing much color contamination -- but, those at 31/31 with use of a "pure"(hopefully anyway) black screen there is a very, very slight amount of it, and it is on the "green" side of things.

I did end up changing my 720p CBOF/CROF from default 31/31 to match the defaults in the servicecode listing. My (admittedly "flawed" reasoning) reasoning for this based more on #1). "faith" in the service codes listings matching the set defaults for everything else on my set, #2).the slight effects on the "hue" in my "twin view" grey background - and matching what is happening with 1080i+480p in that regard, and #3) - Per #2 as well - what I saw with "black screen+ID bug" from the PBS affilates at 1080i when they aren't sending programming.

I didn't have a good way to "look" at it with 720p other than looking at the black pillar bars during upconverted SD programming from local stations sending 720p. I did try that as well and did manage to catch "black" being sent for a couple of seconds from 720p stations on a few occasions. From what little I could tell with that, as well as pertaining to my "reasoning"(especially #2+3 mentioned above) the service code listing default(CBOF/CROF = 45/47) did, nevertheless appear to be a better choice than the odd CBOF/CROF=31/31 default setting. Also, after changing it to CBOF/CROF = 45/47 I noticed what I'm seeing during program material(including the extremely slight change in flesh tones/etc) from 720p stations seems to better "match" what I'm seeing with 1080i stations - although it's such a slight, slight difference it's hard to say if that's more because I'm just "seeing things" I want to see. It may be.

I doubt If they'll need to be changed much, but, 'll revisit CBOF/CROF in the future as possible if/when I happen to run across B&W programming, and I might unhook one of my external ATSC receivers from another set and hook it up to the Sony via component connection to see what happens -- I can send whatever scan rate I want from it(1080i/720p/480p/etc), and It also actually sends "video black"" if there is "no signal". Would also be interesting to see if factory CBOF/CROF setting for 720p from V5/V6 component differs from the 31/31 I had for ATSC 720p. CBOF/CROF values for 480p ATSC+480p Component are slightly different - per service codes listings, and as I confirmed via 480p via V5 and internal 480p ATSC test pattern.

I have used that STB/ATSC receiver to set similar R+B offsets for 720p/1080i on another display(Samsung TXN2668WHF) I was using it with. Although I don't necessarily expect on the XBR960 the CBOF/CROF settings will necessarily be the same via component V6 as what internal ATSC needs. I do recall that It did work very well to adjust the R/B offsets on that other set, and that very different values from its factory defaults were quite necessary.

---------------------------------------------------------

Oh --- BTW - I'd mentioned something about this earlier -- I found it does work to put up 480p ATSC internal QM test pattern to adjust your image processing settings and P2170-4 GAMM/BLK/etc. per pic mode. While you can't change pic modes with the QM test pattern up, it uses whatever pic mode you were using before you went into QM and put up the test pattern. Since I don't have a 480p ATSC signal available at current, I went through all the pic modes for 480p ATSC and set up the relevant settings to do my "hijacking" of vivid/standard/movie for 480p, so if/when a 480p ATSC OTA signal does pop up, I won't have to do it, then - besides perhaps making small adjustments for MID5 column/etc.

I'll probably do the same thing for 720p/1080i via component by hooking up one of my "STB" ATSC receivers, as all I've used 720p/1080i with on the sony are internal tuner and memory stick. The 720p/1080i V5/V6 specific settings are therefore likely still at factory defaults. If there were internal test patterns that use HDMI input, perhaps I could do the same thing for settings specific to "HDMI" as well. As someday, it's likely I'll be using something via HDMI I'd think, and I think it would just be nice to have as much "work" as possible already done.

Jeff
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post #852 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 05:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I am wondering if there is anything that may be useful for reducing sharpening effects of "high contrast" boundaries.

Oh, yes! As I mentioned, that is what the "limiting" parameters are all about. Just set up sharpening effects for good, low-contrast textures, and then try stepping the appropriate limiter parameter down from 3.

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Also, If I ever get around to it, I might check out DYCO, DYCG, DCCO, DCGA, YHCO, and YHCG a bit, as I do still use analog OTA via RF and SD via Dish network receiver+S-VHS deck via svideo. Just in case I might find some small changes beneficial.

I use them, too, but demand a lot less from those sources. I will be interested to hear about anything you discover. (In fact, if we keep this up, I fear there will be only 3-4 of us ever reading this thread! Oh, well . . . after we're dead and gone, the written legacy of our exploration and sacrifice will live on on some storage device. ;-) )

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post #853 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I noticed that I could imagine it's possible that "vastly different settings" for CBGN~YGN might significantly effect what you'd need for CBOF/CROF.

. . . except that the "GN" parameters are specifically *gain* or level controls, affecting colors in the whole brightness range, and the "OF" parameters are for offset, affecting mainly the darkest tones. Color offset misadjustment really screws up grayscale!

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post #854 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Certianly -- looking at "black" with color all the way up, I could see the difference if I lowered CROF from the factory default of "47" for 1080i to say "44" - Even though I thought "44" looked like the best value, I couldn't really tell for sure by "eyeballing it" whether "44" or "47" was the better setting, so I left it at default(47).

Also note that even if I set CBOF/CROF to 31/31 for 1080i - I wouldn't say I am really seeing much color contamination -- but, those at 31/31 with use of a "pure"(hopefully anyway) black screen there is a very, very slight amount of it, and it is on the "green" side of things.

I once thought that the "black" the station broadcast between program and commercial -- or what surrounded a 4:3 commercial, or what I saw when I had punched in a digital station but it hadn't given me a picture yet -- was a ture black, but now I'm not so sure. Sony's service instructions are to input a grayscale from a HD signal generator (yah, like we all have one of those!), and make sure the grayscale is without color shift throughout the brightness range. When I finally saw PBS broadcasting some really neutral B/W video on HD, I immediately invoked service mode and cranked Color to max to see if I could improve on previous settings for 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF.

I could and did! The B/W video I now encounter routinely in HD commercials and programming is truly neutral, and -- guess what -- some of those "black" backgrounds are slightly tinted. Hmpf! So much for assumptions!

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post #855 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd mentioned something about this earlier -- I found it does work to put up 480p ATSC internal QM test pattern to adjust your image processing settings and P2170-4 GAMM/BLK/etc. per pic mode. While you can't change pic modes with the QM test pattern up, it uses whatever pic mode you were using before you went into QM and put up the test pattern.

This is very good advice. I recently completely recalibrated my set's color for all signals by using these patterns, in partucular revisiting the settings for 2170P-4/RYR~GYB and reestablishing correct color levels with 2170P-4/SCOL.

Of particular value is pattern #6 in each series (06, 26, 46, etc.). When viewed in blue-only (2170P-2/RGBS = 1), the top and bottom halves of this pattern should be exactly the same brightness so you can hardly see the boundary between them. Since one or two fo the SCOL settings are commpn to inputs that may differ in color intensity (HD, memory stick, HDMI@480p, for example), those inputs have to be balanced against each other elsewhere, say in 2170P-3/UCOL. I also used calibration DVDs to confirm some inputs.

Result: Better color balance among the inputs, my alleged "blue push" is gone (I sorta miss it...), and some broadcast SD less garish. Amazing what a little tinkering will do. Some other chap has complained about a "green push" and "too-saturated" color even after calibration. I wonder if thorough attention to those internal patterns to "tune" the set internally may help. Small errors in GYR and GYB setup add up to noticable green push.

So now RYR~GYB are 14-15-6-4.

In the CXA2171 group, I could not find anything wrong with my CBGN~YGN controls as they were -- but they're not set to the chart defaults, either. More like 6-6-6 for HDMI instead of 3-3-3. I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).

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post #856 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 06:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Correction: In my post #707 I mentioned changing 2103-1 #16/SSMD to 3 from the default of 0.

I now think this change is superfluous. This timing parameter is called "slice level" in some documents, and I thought I had once seen an improvement in picture quality (AVIA 200TVL resolution test pattern) when it was changed from 0 to 3. I now can't see any difference, though 1 and 2 are horrible. Setting 0 is the "auto" setting, and I think I'll leave it there.

So ... regarding changing SSMD to 3: Never mind!

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post #857 of 2962 Old 01-26-2006, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
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Oh, yes! As I mentioned, that is what the "limiting" parameters are all about. Just set up sharpening effects for good, low-contrast textures, and then try stepping the appropriate limiter parameter down from 3.

Thanks, that brought it together for me. I think I may need to experiment a bit more with some slightly different values for the other MID5 settings we are using(such as MHYL~MHYO) first before looking elsewhere.

Probably have to do that "clear out the MID5 column thing", to make a few more columns available for that first. I'm trying to get "everything else" (which all mostly involve minor "little" things, or things of little "current" importnance there is just a lot of them I want to get "out of the way") taken care of before trying much "fine tuning" of your latest image processing recommendations, or trying further experimentation with it. So, it might be a while.

I think I do recall messing with MHYR (and everything else in MID5) a little bit many months ago when experiementing with various programming from 480p DVD, which in my case required a little more "sharpening" than your "old" MID5 column #60 or #61 column recommendations. That experiment Included adjusting most other MID5 settings for maximum sharpening effect(but not doing much in 2170P-3 and with SYSM=3), then "backing off on things" I didn't like as much as possible. I ended up also not liking anything but "0" from MHYR, but maybe I should try revisiting it.

What I seem to want to try improving doesn't seem to involve VM, as, this little "thing" I may be seeing is there with VM turned Off as well. It's probably more just of me seeing things after having gotten used to the "old" settings, and/or something along the lines of needing to fine tune MYHE/MYHO and MVYL/MVYE a bit for different sources. As again, the more I look at the set with the "new" image processing settings, the more I like them -- in every way.

Hard to explain, but what I think I want to do is - given use of your "new" (Post #707/etc.) image processing setting recommendations --- along the lines as you put it for "limiting" -- I want to keep the "enhanced sharpness of fine textures, just as they are, but lay off a little more obvious bright edges and boundaries". As, everywhere else it's just beautiful, just in certian circumstances - not necessarily in a "input/scan rate/source specific sense---- I seem to be seeing a bit of something I don't like concerning "bright edges" and boundries ... Instead of going into more detail on it now, probably best need to wait to see what I find out with fine tuning of MID5 columns/etc, as I'm thinking that might do the trick.

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. . . except that the "GN" parameters are specifically *gain* or level controls, affecting colors in the whole brightness range, and the "OF" parameters are for offset, affecting mainly the darkest tones. Color offset misadjustment really screws up grayscale!

I'm certianly not disagreeing with that. Just reporting my observations and experiences.

In my case I did do quite a bit of cycling through inputs with color at "0" after changing CBGN/CRGN from default of 4-5 to 6-6 - and I'm still getting pure "Black+White" so to speak. If there were any differences in greyscale between different sources/etc/ before, (which if any - MAYBE involved the very, very slightest bit of pink/red contamination at 480p/1080i - but if that was there before it was probably just more my imaginiation), there's less difference now. and, It seems very easy to spot little differences with greyscale with color at "0" when changing between a analog station from RF input on channel 12, to the PSIP remapped channel 12.1 with the same programming, but upconverted.

Maybe I'm wrong Ken, but I think slightly modifying CBGN/CRGN from "4-5" to "6-6"was a good thing for my set. I've certianly noticed the improvement, but have yet to see any problems with it. Maybe I'll find something later on though that indicates "4-5" is better, If so I'll post about it. And Again, I don't expect that will be the case for everyone, perhaps especially if your factory defaults for those values(and perhaps YGN as well) are the same.

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once thought that the "black" the station broadcast between program and commercial -- or what surrounded a 4:3 commercial, or what I saw when I had punched in a digital station but it hadn't given me a picture yet -- was a ture black, but now I'm not so sure. Sony's service instructions are to input a grayscale from a HD signal generator (yah, like we all have one of those!), and make sure the grayscale is without color shift throughout the brightness range. When I finally saw PBS broadcasting some really neutral B/W video on HD, I immediately invoked service mode and cranked Color to max to see if I could improve on previous settings for 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF.

I could and did! The B/W video I now encounter routinely in HD commercials and programming is truly neutral, and -- guess what -- some of those "black" backgrounds are slightly tinted. Hmpf! So much for assumptions!

Here's another one. I receive Local ATSC/ HD stations from 2 different markets. One CBS HD station has a very slight, greenish tint to it - most noticable in shadows - such as say a dark scene involving actor wearing a dark suit. It's the only station out of 15 local ATSC stations I receive that seems to have this sort of issue. It's especially noticable when I compare it to CBS HD station from another market, where that greenish tint isn't there, even in the same scene. It's there on the Sony, on all other displays I own, it's there if I output 16x9 NTSC video at 480i+record to SVHS - especially noticable if I record portions of the same program from both stations. Now, since it's a very very slight thing -- seems that either I'm seeing things, Or noone else who posts on my local thread has noticed it yet ... LOL ...

Given the 1080i assumed "black screen" from the station I'm referring to, and the default values, Neutral grey is exactly what I get throughout the entire brightness range, even with color turned all the way up.

So, what are the chances I'd get that neutral grey throughout brightness range if it WEREN'T black, and CBOF/CROF weren't set correctly(or close)? In other words, How does it "just so happen" that if it isn't "black", It nevertheless, Just so happens to perfectly match my CBOF/CROF factory defaults? And, as another example I'm seeing the same thing you are for B/W video in HD commercials.

I agree with you about "assumptions" - we all remember that old saying -- but sometimes I think one can make good, reasonably educated "assumptions", "bets" or guesses, and sometimes, with this sort of thing it is all one has to go on, and we just do our best.

Anyhow, I will certianly recheck CBOF/CROF as possible when "good" B&W content is available(and I have had the oppurtunity to check it with B&W from PBS HD channel) ... but, at this point If there is any "color contamination" of blacks or shadows/etc. going on because of CBOF/CROF settings, I can't see it. And that's what is important to me, anyway.

Also, to "start off" with - at least with my ability to "eyeball it" I've got the same "B&W" with greyscale with color at "0"(as best my eyes can tell anyway) among all inputs/sources. And again, I have also run into the SAME issues you have had with this, and adjusting it's R+B offsets(they also don't effect Greyscale/btw) worked perfectly -- just on another set/model from a different manufacturer, Not this one.

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I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).

Didn't try it that way to see what happened, but that makes sense to me.

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Of particular value is pattern #6 in each series (06, 26, 46, etc.). When viewed in blue-only (2170P-2/RGBS = 1), the top and bottom halves of this pattern should be exactly the same brightness so you can hardly see the boundary between them.

Never thought of that! Thanks for pointing that one out -- You're right, that is an excellent pattern for Blue only gun. And I thought I was Done with "color" ...

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So ... regarding changing SSMD to 3: Never mind!

Thanks for the update. FWIW, I didn't notice a difference between 0+3 when I changed it, except If I recall correctly the pic shifted a bit to the right(I think) when I was moving from "0 to 3".

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post #858 of 2962 Old 01-27-2006, 01:10 PM
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I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).

A update on this. I've confirmed the above appears to be the case - albeit via a bit of an "odd" happenstance.

One of the "little" things on my list to do was to go back and center the "Picture" slider at 31. Although I had done that long ago for the user menu slider for "brightness=31" slider with SBRT+ 2170P-3 UBOF for the various inputs/scan rates /etc - --- and had also long ago already "balanced out" Contrast from different sources(to best of my ability to do so anyway -- getting the "RF" input "just right" seems especially difficult, for instance, and the way it was, SPIC for 720p/1080i really needed to be about "-1") using P2170-4 SPIC, and for RF+CV/YC, 2103-1 SCON(for twinview/index its in 2103-2) :

Back When looking at Greyscale and setting white balance/etc., I'd just ended up with a Picture=24 (or 25) setting, and left it at that, for one of those "little things" to go back and "center" Picture control, later - probably with P2170-4 "SPIO".

Ok, so last night I went to do that So I could get Picture slider up to 31. And notice my factory defaults for "SPIO/SCLO/SHUO are : 10-6-7. My SPIC settings ranged from "0 to 4". From the factory it was funny as the scan rates inputs that actually need the LOWER SPIC settings were set for HIGHER settings instead! for instance, factory SPIC was "7" for 1080i, and "4" for RF .... THAT definitely seemed a little backwards, to say the least.

So, I end up with "SPIO=7" instead of factory default of 10. Then, putting DVE color bars up via 480i component/DVD, I notice, strangely enough that that caused my "color" settings to change a bit, leaving blue a bit undersaturated ... This was easily fixed by adjusting "SCLO=7", bumping it up from the default of "6". Now I have SPIO~SHUO = "7-7-7", and SPIO still may need to be lowered a bit more - not only to give me the "right" White balance with Picture=31, but also depending upon what it ends up doing to color, might be better to lower SPIO more so I can raise SPIC a bit, since I have some of those values at "0", and I really might need a "-1" for 720p/1080i HD. Notice it does indicate SPIO at "4" in service code listing, and perhaps SPIO at "4" might be a good spot for me.

HOWEVER -- now here comes the mildly interesting part. As I noted, Lowering SPIO from factory default of "10" to "7" also effected Color balance slightly. I really wasn't expecting that. But, no big deal, raised "SCLO" one notch and that took care of that for everything EXCEPT 480p/720p/1080i --- Hmm seems familiar ... SO, I revisit CBGN~YGN again. What do you know -- CBGN~YGN values of "5-5-5" work best with SPIO=7, instead of, with factory default of SPIO=10 and CBGN~YGN 6-6-5(factory values 4-5-5) for achieving color balance for 480p/720p/1080i that "matches" what I get with the same RYR~GYB values from other inputs ....

So, considering that, now that I have the values for CBGN~YGN being all the same, and considering that "SPIC=0" for 1080i/720p really needs to be more like "SPIC=-1" in order to balance contrast among sources ..... I think - well -- why not Lower CBGN~YGN to 4-4-4 , and see what I need to do for "SPIC" for 480p and 1080i? --- At least without spending a lot of time looking at it -- This seems to be working quite well, and this is what I ended up with for the new SPIC settings(note only needed to change the 480p and 720p/1080i settings) : 720p/1080i(and everything else except 480p) - SPIC = 4. 480p SPIC = 9 ......

Jeff
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post #859 of 2962 Old 01-29-2006, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so last night I went to do that So I could get Picture slider up to 31. And notice my factory defaults for "SPIO/SCLO/SHUO are : 10-6-7.

Interesting how we have skinned this cat in different ways. I was very disappointed early-on in my contrast and black-level settings. I fixed black level (Brightness = 31) with a combination of SBRT (now about 30; was 16!) and the three 2170P-1/_CUT settings. But back then I hadn't figured out the sub-settings of SPIO-SHUO, and so I merely upped the _DRV settings until I had a picture that, at Picture = 31, has the contrast I expected. It has been that way since last spring, and so I haven't been tempted to mess with the offsets you have tinkered with.

Just goes to show how many of these settings have the sane effect in the video chain. They are distinguished mostly by scope: In 2170P-3, they're arranged by input class *and* video; 2170P-4/SPIO~SHUO are global (one setting for all); 2170P-4/SPIC~SHUE are per internal signal-path; 2170-1/YOF~CROF are by video and input class. And so forth. Hard to keep straight for non-wireheads!

I am thinking of creating a chart or two showing *related* settings in their various locations so one can record changes easily instead of notating one of Sony's charts. This is what I did with the image-processing settings in the chart attached to #707. But the gross parameters of color, black level, and grayscale could use the same treatment. I'm weary of scribbling tiny little numbers and dates on the Sony charts!

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post #860 of 2962 Old 01-29-2006, 03:50 PM
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This is defenitely a newb question but, all these different settings and numbers that are being talked about here, is this what an isf trained service tech. would adjust in order to make the TV look better?

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post #861 of 2962 Old 01-29-2006, 04:49 PM
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Yesterday while my D* was tuned to one of the XM Channels, which display either a black or grey solid screen (depending your user settings - mine are at grey so I can easily distinguish the sidebars created by my HR10-250 from those transmitted by an HD channel, which are black 99% of the time) . . . Anyway, while the grey screen was displayed on my 30xs955, I notice three very faint, single pixel height, horizontal black lines running from edge to edge. The first one is about 1/8 - 1/4 from the top. The next one is about 2/3 from the top, and the last one is about 1/4 from the bottom. I have to stand at couple of feet from the screen to see them. I changed to a channel displaying an actual image and noticed the lines were still there, although not as detectable on a non-uniform image.

These could have been there since the day I turned my set on the first time and I just never noticed. Anyone know what this is about? Is it the aperture grill/mask? Is it a defect? Is it something I did while changing user menus? It's not a big deal, but now that I know it's there, I think I'm going to fixate on it.
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post #862 of 2962 Old 01-29-2006, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

so I merely upped the _DRV settings until I had a picture that, at Picture = 31, has the contrast I expected.

With my set, and the factory default of "SPIO-10", I would have had to lower the DRV settings for Picture slider=31, and they're already at midrange(Both RDRV/RCUT at 32, and that was the factory value) - That's even if I set "SPIC" to 0 for the source(s) with highest contrast.

Here are the default DRV~CUT values which correspond to the default values for "warm" offset on my set(the actual warm offset values were same as in service code listing) :

32-17-9-32-17-5

Using that, and from looking at "clouds"/etc(sorry I can't offer anything more definitive than that+"eyeballing it"), after balancing contrast with SPIC+2103-1 SCON(for RF+CV/YC)/etc -- a picture slider setting of "24~25" ended up being just right, given the factory "SPIO=10" value. Also, Higher than 25(and even 25 sometimes), and my eyes easily get fatigued after a bit of viewing.

So, Factory "warm Offset" seemed awfully close to 6500K, except that it was more "greenscale" than greyscale. Only really worked if I was looking at clouds that had a "green" hue to them(and that does happen sometimes) .... So, I went about getting rid of that bit of greenish tint to the greyscale, and these are the values I now have set up for RDRV~BUT for Neutral - 32-16-7-32-17-9, which is what I use. I have modified the "warm offset" values so "warm" is as it was from the factory, for reference. I haven't really found much of a actual use for "cool" yet, although I did use it while finding the best values for "neutral".

I have SBRT=28, which was the factory default. But, the only reason why I don't have it at say "31" is because my DVD player needs SBRT=28 with P2170-3 UBOF=0. Everything else I have at UBOF=3~5.

So, in my case it looks like lowering SPIO=4 is going to be my "answer" for getting picture slider up to 31. Interestingly enough, SPIO=4 is the default listing in the service codes. Also, interestingly enough, I haven't checked this thoroughly yet, but from what I've seen so far it looks like that with SPIO=4, many other values(such as SCLO, SHUO, CBGN~YGN, SPIC and 2103-1 SCON for RF+CV+YC) will also end up needing to be very close, if not exactly the same as is shown in the service code listing .....

Given that you did need to redefine higher _DRV values, and I think I'd read previoulsy that your "SPIO=7" --- Could our CRT's really be that "different", or perhaps is it more likely could it be the HV adjustment on the flyback transformer on your set is set a little differently than mine(which perhaps could also explain why we are getting different results for CBOF/CROF from the factory defaults) ?


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Originally Posted by Jediphish View Post

Is it the aperture grill/mask?

It sounds like you are seeing the wires that hold the aperture grill in place. We all can see them from a very close distance(within a foot or two) with these AG sets, most noticable perhaps with uniform grey or white screen.

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Is it a defect?

No, If you are seeing what I think you are, that's just the way it is. You shouldn't see it from more than a couple feet or so away.

Jeff
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post #863 of 2962 Old 01-29-2006, 07:59 PM
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Ken,

Thanks as well for all of your posts and very helpful (and detailed) information. I have a question. I have a 960 that has a picture that seems to be shifted too far to the left. Here's what I mean. While watching the U2 concert tonight on HDNet, the only part of the HDNet logo that I could see on my screen was "HDNe"
What service codes would work in shifting the picture to the right? I have read roughly 10 pages of this thread and am either too stupid to discern which codes would work or I might have missed it. Could you help me?

P.S. I have already downloaded the 960 service manual that you provided. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by OmniBeast View Post

This is defenitely a newb question but, all these different settings and numbers that are being talked about here, is this what an isf trained service tech. would adjust in order to make the TV look better?

I believe the answer is "It depends on the tech." From what I have read, it appears that some techs are informed and motivated enough to add some of the adjustments mentioned here to their normal work. (I recall a fellow from Ohio posted in this forum that he was quite impressed in this way with the guy he hired.)

However, I can't imagine every ISF tech having the depth of knowledge about all of the different brand's and model's service-mode settings that they can just waltz into your home and dive right in, as we discuss here, especially in balancing the myriad settings against each other. Further, such practitioners will differ widely in their intelligence, diligence, and discipline. (Best get a referral from a pleased, discriminating customer.) Investing $10,000+ in exotic instruments does not guarantee competence or diligence, ISF "training" notwithstanding.

One basic argument for learning about your own TV and doing it yourself is that you are learning about only *one* TV, in depth, depending on how much of a wirehead you are. When, say, the color adjustments drift off a bit, as they are likely to do over a year, you can go back in and tweak it for a service charge of $0! Further, nothing I have read indicates that ISF techs get into the nitty-gritty of image processing, as we have in this thread. (See post #707.)

The personal-satisfaction issue is best discussed in another thread, but I don't what there is to debate. One can either be proud of their own accomplishment in calibrating their own TV (I am!), or one can hire someone else to do it for them and miss out. That goes for a lot of different tasks. I am a fearless, curious wirehead, and so this course of action has been natural for me and will be for many others who read this thread and are willing to rev up their courage a bit.

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post #865 of 2962 Old 01-30-2006, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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What service codes would work in shifting the picture to the right? I have read roughly 10 pages of this thread and am either too stupid to discern which codes would work or I might have missed it.

Don't beat up on yourself! It takes heroic persistence to find specific instructions in this thread.

The *raster* is the entire pattern scanned by the electron beam, including the garbage at the edges. Be sure to write down your original settings as you make changes.

The strategy is to (1) center the raster on the tube. See manual section 2-8. Set 2170D-3/HBLK to 0 to disable blanking of the edges. Set 2170D-2/AGNG = 2 to temporarily shrink the raster so you can see the edges and lower HSIZ if it needs more shrinking. Then adjust HCNT to center the raster horizontally on the tube. Restore AGNG, HBLK, and HSIZ to their former values.

Now (2) use 2170D-2/HPOS to center the *picture.* Use a standard test pattern from one of the DVDs, like AVIA or DVE. Finally you can use 2170D-2/HSIZ to reduce the amount lost at the edges (overscan). The illustrations in the manual, section 2-9.1 show the different adjustments.

2170D-1/VPOS and VSIZ center and adjust height of the pattern. There may be some subtleties in adjusting your 16:9 set that I can't address, having a 4:3 set, but these are the basics.

PLEASE READ the early first couple of articles in this thread for the methods and cautions about using service mode!
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post #866 of 2962 Old 01-30-2006, 10:19 AM
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Ken,

Will do. Thanks for the advice and the help. My TV is still under warranty and I've contacted our local Sony warranty electronics store about fixing it, but the tech I've talked to has the personality of "Oscar the Grouch" from Sesame Street! He set up a time to come and pick up the set, then never showed up! Everytime I've spoken to the guy, he sounds like I'm bothering the living crap out of him and that he'd rather not be working at all. Unfortunately, Sony has told me that they don't have another warranty service technician in Amarillo. So, I found this thread and have decided to make the adjustment myself, if possible. I've also had my analog sound go out on the TV (via the analog out jacks in the back) and am using the "monitor sound out" jacks instead. I was going to have the tech work on those too. The tech did mention that the analog sound card may have gone out on those jacks and needs to be replaced. The digital sound (via coax and optical) works just fine...and obviously, so does the analog monitor out jacks. I didn't have this many problems with my old KD-34XBR2, but I guess every set is different and I sure wouldn't trade this 960 for anything. I absolutely love the picture.

Thanks again!

Steve Kersh
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post #867 of 2962 Old 01-30-2006, 11:27 AM
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............... I recently completely recalibrated my set's color for all signals by using these patterns, in partucular revisiting the settings for 2170P-4/RYR~GYB and reestablishing correct color levels with 2170P-4/SCOL.

Of particular value is pattern #6 in each series (06, 26, 46, etc.). When viewed in blue-only (2170P-2/RGBS = 1), the top and bottom halves of this pattern should be exactly the same brightness so you can hardly see the boundary between them. Since one or two fo the SCOL settings are commpn to inputs that may differ in color intensity (HD, memory stick, HDMI@480p, for example), those inputs have to be balanced against each other elsewhere, say in 2170P-3/UCOL. I also used calibration DVDs to confirm some inputs.

Result: Better color balance among the inputs, my alleged "blue push" is gone (I sorta miss it...), and some broadcast SD less garish. Amazing what a little tinkering will do. Some other chap has complained about a "green push" and "too-saturated" color even after calibration. I wonder if thorough attention to those internal patterns to "tune" the set internally may help. Small errors in GYR and GYB setup add up to noticable green push.

So now RYR~GYB are 14-15-6-4.

In the CXA2171 group, I could not find anything wrong with my CBGN~YGN controls as they were -- but they're not set to the chart defaults, either. More like 6-6-6 for HDMI instead of 3-3-3. I'll bet that as long as these three parameters are identical, you won't see any change except to the whole picture's contrast (white-brightness).

I went through this procedure while utilizing the #6 series of QM pattern with Blue gun last night/etc., and came up with the same, or nearly the same RYR~GYB as you did - at least for best results with 720p or 1080i -- either RYR~GYB = 14-15-6-4 or 14-14-6-4. Was Hard to say with any certianity which one was better.

On my set, at 720p/1080i+adjusting SCOL as necessary with CBGN~YGN at 5-4-4, and RYR~GYB at 14-15-6-4 resulted in as close to perfect color balance/color decoding as I could imagine using the QM #4+#6 series of patterns and turning on the guns individually, as well as color bars at 1080i from memory stick. However, that didn't quite work as perfectly for 480p ATSC internal pattern - Which unfortunetly in my case needs a SCOL value that is -1 from what 720p/1080i needs for the same results and, SCOL doesn't appear to allow different values for 480p ATSC vs 720p/1080i ATSC.

So, If I ever get a 480p signal of importance from ATSC tuner, and If want as perfect as possible color for both 480p and 720p/1080i ATSC, I'd have to reduce SCOL for ATSC 480p/720p/1080i, and increase P2170-3 UCOF value for 720p/1080i. Luckily, 480p via component V5/V6 allows a seperate SCOL value, and according to color test patterns via DVD SCOL also needs to be -1 as compared to 480i via component. Have a good feeling however that I'll also probably need to balance V5/V6 with UCOF If I ever hook anything up to the component input that uses 720p/1080i. It would probably be better to go ahead+do the "UCOF thing" now for ATSC tuner 480p vs 720p/1080i .. I've just liked the convienience of having UCOF/UHFO=0 for everything .... oh well ....

Also, noticed that with test patterns via DVD at 480i or 480p via component or S-Video - after using pattern #6 at 480i(which, along with everything else except 480p needs the same SCOL value as 1080i) -- I still need RYR~GYB at 13-15-5-3 for best results.

Right now, after trying numerous slightly different "settings" my compromise is to set CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4, increase SCOL for 480p/720p/1080i ATSC an additional +1, and use RYR~GYB 13-15-6-4 for input from the internal tuner or MS, while using RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 for everything else. Except for 480p ATSC, This is still "very" close to being "right on the money", and I have to really, really look closely to see the difference between RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 and 13-15-6-4 where I'm using it. If I ever get a 480p ATSC signal however, this "compromise" does not favor accuracy for 480p ATSC color.

The other compromise - which appears to be the best "all around" solution is to use CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4, but not increase SCOL for 480/720p/1080i ATSC the additional +1 as required for my other "compromise" option mentioned above. This also happens to be the best solution for best results for both 480p and 720p/1080i ATSC AND also produces the best results of anything I can find for using 720p/1080i with RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 - Which makes it appear to be the best "all around" compromise, and still seems to offer very good color balance(just not quite as good as the other two "options" I've found) for 720p/1080i.

I tried other various "combinations" of values, including for instance CBGN~YGN at the set default (4-5-5) as well as even trying slightly different values with SCOL/SHUE -- But, in my case the 3 different possible options described above worked better than anything else I could find. At this point, I haven't decided which of the 3 above described options I'm going to use "permanently".

BTW - I did manage to forget a couple of times to turn "MTRX=0" for 480p and MTRX=1 to 1080i/720p when checking this and making slight adjustjments, which resulted in a bit of cursing on my part, LOL -- Another interesting thing -- The "right"(but not the left) "Twin view" window -- which is allways going to be either from from RF NTSC tuner or from YV/VC --- is ALSO effected by "MTRX" strangely enough -- must be because when you use "twin-view" you're actually using 1080i full mode ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

...............
PLEASE READ the early first couple of articles in this thread for the methods and cautions about using service mode!

Speaking of which -- couple of hopefully helpful add'l items about working in SM I've noticed :

#1). When switching inputs or picture modes and checking values for specific settings -- at least on my set - I notice that sometimes the info isn't allways updated "quickly enough" to reflect the actual value which is there. For instance ... I have "twin-view" "vivid" pic mode P2170-3 MIDE=59, for "twin-view" pro pic mode, MIDE-53. But, sometimes, when I'm looking at the value for MIDE, switching Pic modes it may still "show" "53" when I select "vivid" picture mode for a short amount of time. So, Sometimes, when switching pic modes/etc -- you might even have to use the #1 and #4 buttons on the remote to go down or up then back to see what the "actual" value you are interested actually is.

#2). I do wonder if this one has happened to anyone else --- On my set -- Inexplicably -- without any adjusting on my part as if there was a "ghost" in my set -- Value for 2170D-1 "ASPW" for one of the various screen modes have inexplicably "changed" on their own while I was in SM and "changing channels" or changing the screen mode. This has occured even if I wasn't changing any values and was doing nothing besides "looking", and also even if I wasn't looking at any of the values in 2170-D1 at the time. One time it happened I noted I was switching channels when a value from 2170P1 was showing on screen.

It's happened about 3 or 4 times, the first 2 occurances, I thought I was losing my mind as I didn't notice it until a day or so after I had last been in SM. Then, the next time, I happened to "see it" happen when it occured while I was switching channels or screen modes. Now, after having experienced this, after finishing a "session", I allways power set back up and make sure aspect ratio is correct on all of the various screen modes.(HDzoom, "zoom", Normal, Full,/etc).

Jeff
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post #868 of 2962 Old 01-30-2006, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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#1). When switching inputs or picture modes and checking values for specific settings -- at least on my set - I notice that sometimes the info isn't allways updated "quickly enough" to reflect the actual value which is there.

I have had the same experience. Further, exactly when one has to WRITE the settings varies depending on the particular code. In MID5, for example, if you make changes to a particular column, then change columns for even a moment, the settings revert. I have gotten into the habit of writing settings very soon after I change them. I am sure that some of the settings that have mysteriously "reverted" to their old settings were just not written in time.
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#2). I do wonder if this one has happened to anyone else --- On my set -- Inexplicably -- without any adjusting on my part as if there was a "ghost" in my set -- Value for 2170D-1 "ASPW" for one of the various screen modes have inexplicably "changed" on their own while I was in SM and "changing channels" or changing the screen mode.

I have not experienced this. ASPW is critical to the height of 16:9 HD and 16:9 960i display of anamorphic 480i DVDs on my 4:3 set, and I think I would have noticed something. Can't say what might be causing this.

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post #869 of 2962 Old 01-30-2006, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kentech View Post

PLEASE READ the early first couple of articles in this thread for the methods and cautions about using service mode!

I have to add here that I think the biggest fast-fingers goof one can make is to forget that you cannot change channels with the number-keypad in service mode, but are stuck with the channel up/down buttons. Fortunately, it takes a three-key combination to really screw things up. I have absent-mindedly pushed number buttons, trying to tune a cable channel with the keypad, only to look up and see the dreaded word RESET on-screen. At that point, one must do nothing, and the mode will revert by itself to SERVICE in a few seconds. Lesson: Avoid at all costs impatiently pressing number buttons for any reason. Look up at the screen. If you ever see anything besides SERVICE, WRITE, or READ, you've screwed up and have to wait for it to go back to SERVICE before proceeding. It's also easy for the thumb to accidentally drift down to the third row of buttons when you have been rapidly cycling up and down thru the codes, groups, and values.

You must avoid the drastic RESET sequences of 7 - 9 - ENTER and 7 - JUMP - ENTER, unless you understand the huge consequences and really intend this!

Y'know, one could make a case for fashioning a little clip-on or tape-on cover for that bottom row of buttons, as insurance when fooling around in service mode. Even if all it did was make them *feel different* from the top two rows, it would alert you to an out-of-position thumb.

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post #870 of 2962 Old 01-30-2006, 03:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skersh View Post

My TV is still under warranty and I've contacted our local Sony warranty electronics store about fixing it, but the tech I've talked to has the personality of "Oscar the Grouch" from Sesame Street!

For the posh XBR960, you should expect that a tech will come to your house and fix a few settings under warranty. They do not have to drag the thing into the shop, sheesh!

I have read here that the least successful method is to call the Sony Service 800-number for a referral. Rather, go to a reputable dealer for your set (maybe the one you bought from) to get an "inside" recommendation as to who does good repair on these sets. Then call them and ask them to make a couple of screen adjustments under warranty -- they're paid for this, after all. Worked for me! Just before the 3-month service warranty ran out, I called a highly recommended authorized service shop quite a ways away, and they sent a guy out who made some important adjustments with magnets I wouldn't have attempted -- and with a smile.

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