THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 2962 Old 05-26-2005, 02:15 PM
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I took delivery of my 960 today. Everything's great! Thanks to threads like these, I'm coming out of the great pretty strong in terms of PQ and adjustments.

I have not touched the service menu yet.

I DO have a rather noticeabe issue, though, and I'm hoping I can be baby walked through this before possibly getting a tech in here.

I don't know if you'd call this a geometry issue, a convergeance issue, or both, but here goes: Upper right and lower right of the screen, especially noticeable with 2:35:1 aspect ratio or anyting else that draws a straight line horizontally across the screen...the upper starts curve dowards and the lower right start to curve upwards. It's easily noticeable.

Is this magenet time, or can I get into the service menu, bump a setting or two real quick, and be on my way? Thanks!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #62 of 2962 Old 05-26-2005, 08:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

Is this magenet time, or can I get into the service menu, bump a setting or two real quick, and be on my way? Thanks!

Sorry to say, I think that requires magnets or an adjustment of the deflection yoke. Look at an all-gray or all-white screen (not too bright). Is there a slightly cool patch to the left of center and a warm patch to the right of center, or the reverse (not at the edge)? That would argue further for the deflection-yoke misalignment -- a very small adjustment.

I am suspicious that the order in which things are adjusted on the final factory-checkout line determines a lot. In stores, I see consistent convergence and curving problems with the upper-right corners on various XS and XBR sets from this generation. The yoke and tube are inherently symmetrical; so why upper (and lower) right? I had a dark patch in the upper-left corner, but that was fixed easily with the service-mode LANDING parameter called "UL." I finally did best by setting all corner adjustments to the middle (127) and starting over, going around to all four corners until everything balanced. If they are allowed only one pass at this, they may over compensate on an earlier adjustment and be stuck when it comes to the last one. Just speculating . . .

The curving of horizontal lines has no fix in service mode that I can see, and I've really looked. I have a bit of this problem, too, and I am having a good "magnet guy" come out next Wed to try his magic. I'll report the results. (My service-labor warranty is about to run out!)

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post #63 of 2962 Old 05-26-2005, 08:30 PM
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I am looking to get an HDTV 30" or so pretty soon. I was wondering.

Are all of these Sony sets pretty much off with regards to geometry?
I can see that this is going to be a bit of a pain to buy a monitor and have to have a tech fix it right away.

I have looked at sets in the stores and I notice that the geo is off on most sets in the corners too.

The convergence can be dodgy many times too. Is this adjustable with the SM?

Also can the overscan be adjusted? It seems like 720P material is severely cut off. Can this be adjusted so that the whole image is visible?

Thanks.
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post #64 of 2962 Old 05-26-2005, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

(1) after reading your article the other day I tried several of the items you mentioned with various to little success. I tend to agree with Crochunter (somewhat) on the SYSM setting. I have left mine at 1 for everything except HD content which stayed at 3.
(2) Changing the SYSM setting (with 480p from DVE & AVIA) & (1080i from ESPNHD frozen frame) caused the picture to shift horizontally with minor sharpness changes. SYSM @ 2 is a little coarse and 1 has the best compromise with DVD.
HD 1080i still looks best with a setting of 3 for all modes.
(2a) I wonder if since you may have used the memory stick for your images that you may see these differences ??
(3) I still don't understand why the picture moves (left - right) with SYSM setting ???
Also, like Croc I'm keeping VM off with default pro settings on all pic modes (VM=0, VMH=12, VMM=8 & VML=4).
(4) Lastly, I will try your MIDE setting on unused MID5/POP value of 60/61.

(1) The whole point is to know what these settings do, and then to adjust them to suit yourself. Note that SYSM = 1 has a "minimum" effect with Sharpness set to about 10-15, not at the far left (0). As you go left of that, there is a softening effect. I simply don't like it, but you may prefer what it does to SD material. I think it's way too coarse for good DVDs. My taste.

(2-3) The edge effects applied by SYSM = 1 or 2 are derived from the luminance signal, but then they would be too late to act as an unsharp mask, where you want to sharpen both sides of a sudden transition in brightness. That would require seeing into the future! I believe the original luminance is *delayed* a bit, and the non-delayed luminance derivative is added to it. The effect is the the whole picture has to slide a little bit later in time -- i.e. to the right.

(2a) It's just that the memory stick is very clean and predictable, where anything fed from a DVD player is subject to all sorts of manipulation before it leaves the player. All you have to do is read comparative reviews of DVD players to see that their video bandwidth varies all over creation!

(4) Good! Here is where you can be quite creative with picture enhancements, and I'll be interested to hear what you arrive at. I imagine some of those parameters have effects visible on instruments, but I'm at a loss to see the effects, even with a tack-sharp test pattern.

It seems to me there are four classes of picture quality, and that one has to devise settings for each: 1080 and 720 HD, DVD-source ED (480I X 720 digital), ordinary high-quality SD, and yucky SD. You might even add a little extra edge boost to 720, since it is resampled and 1080 is not; this appears to be what Sony does in its MID5 table. Of course, much of 1080i broadcast is really DVD-quality, but you're stuck coming up with one MID5 column for both. That's where the sharpness control comes in -- down for real HD, up for ho-hum "HD."

I don't think there are any compensations in this set that are "just right" for blurry SD or tired VCR tapes. Every adjustment offered seems to assume a fairly high-quality picture in the first place. I don't agonize over it. I make a choice of Sharpness settiing and get on with it.
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post #65 of 2962 Old 05-26-2005, 10:47 PM
 
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No, actually i don't have Adobe Acrobat redaer which is why i can't view your pics

All is well now in the PQ department...As long as i don't see any ghosting or double lines and ringing then i'm fine with the settings i have.
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post #66 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC19 View Post

I am looking to get an HDTV 30" or so pretty soon. I was wondering.

Are all of these Sony sets pretty much off with regards to geometry?
I can see that this is going to be a bit of a pain to buy a monitor and have to have a tech fix it right away.

I have looked at sets in the stores and I notice that the geo is off on most sets in the corners too.

The convergence can be dodgy many times too. Is this adjustable with the SM?

Also can the overscan be adjusted? It seems like 720P material is severely cut off. Can this be adjusted so that the whole image is visible?

Thanks.

No CRT TV will have perfect geometry, but some come out of the factory looking worse than others. I've been able to get the geometry on my Sony 30HS420 looking really good with some simple adjustments in the SM. The main ones that made the difference for my TV were VPIN, PIN, UCP, and LCP. I started out making small adjustments until everything starting looking good. I've almost eliminated the upper and lower horizontal bowing, and the slight vertical bowing near the edges is barely noticeable. Thanks go out to KenTech for providing the service manual pages for specific geometry settings. This helped me a lot.

Convergence can be dodgy. I've had a tech out to my house to see if the errors on my TV can be fixed. The errors are mostly in the corners and on the upper left side of the screen. It took nearly three weeks for Sony to get back to him to let him know that the errors are probably "within spec," but to go ahead and try to fix it. So, my TV is currently in a repair shop getting worked on. AFAIK, there's no way to adjust convergence in the SM. The settings that are there don't do anything on the HS420 series.

Overscan can be adjusted in the SM.
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post #67 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Sorry to say, I think that requires magnets or an adjustment of the deflection yoke. Look at an all-gray or all-white screen (not too bright). Is there a slightly cool patch to the left of center and a warm patch to the right of center, or the reverse (not at the edge)? That would argue further for the deflection-yoke misalignment -- a very small adjustment.

I am suspicious that the order in which things are adjusted on the final factory-checkout line determines a lot. In stores, I see consistent convergence and curving problems with the upper-right corners on various XS and XBR sets from this generation. The yoke and tube are inherently symmetrical; so why upper (and lower) right? I had a dark patch in the upper-left corner, but that was fixed easily with the service-mode LANDING parameter called "UL." I finally did best by setting all corner adjustments to the middle (127) and starting over, going around to all four corners until everything balanced. If they are allowed only one pass at this, they may over compensate on an earlier adjustment and be stuck when it comes to the last one. Just speculating . . .

The curving of horizontal lines has no fix in service mode that I can see, and I've really looked. I have a bit of this problem, too, and I am having a good "magnet guy" come out next Wed to try his magic. I'll report the results. (My service-labor warranty is about to run out!)


Drat.

This means two things. Here's what Crutchfield told me to do about this:

Quote:


To have a Sony service tech come out and check those convergence issues you will need to contact Sony directly. They have a special number setup to handle their in home service issues. To setup someone to come out to your home please call the Sony at your service TV line at 800-282-2848. They will be able to give you better information and setup the in home service for you.

It's either this or I save up and just go ISF and finish it.

It's not the end of the world, but even my sister walked in the room and saw it right away, and she's hardly an "anal videophile."

I went to the ISF's official site and made contact with the closest local ISF calibrator, who's qualified across the boards.

He quoted me about $280 per input and said he'd even do the geometry and convergeance for free "as needed." Obviously, it's going to be needed for me.

Sounds like a good deal to me. In light of this, should I just wait a couple of months to save up the money and have him come out and finish it all off, or take my chances now with Sony to at least handle the geometry and convergeance issues.

Something else I've noticed: A very faint horizontal line that goes across the entire screen. It's very thin and straight. It's about 1/4 down from the top of the screen.
It exists at all times, all applications.

Edit: I called that Sony number and got to one of their reps and described to him what I had and threw out the key terms like "geometry" and "convergeance."

His response to me was to type something in a database and read back to me off of their computer that what I was seeing was a "perfectly normal" concave effect on a flat screen TV and that I wouldn't notice it after a time. He then concluded with: "If you're not having an actual problem with the picture or the sound, there is nothing wrong with your TV."

So, yeah...I'll be having an ISF guy deal with this in a few months.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #68 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 10:44 AM
 
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That line Holds the aperature grill in place.It's common on sony sets, it's not a problem with the sets, all sony sets have this line.Actually if you look closer there should be 2 lines one at the top and one at the bottom.

Once your set is calibrated you won't notice the lines at all,because the calibration will hide them.

Sorry to hear about your convergance and geometry problems

I guess i got lucky then with my sony at the time i purchased it,Great geometry out of the box, and only minor convergance problems which are off only at the bottom of the screen on the left and right, not in the middle.
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post #69 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

That line Holds the aperature grill in place.It's common on sony sets, it's not a problem with the sets, all sony sets have this line.Actually if you look closer there should be 2 lines one at the top and one at the bottom.

I guessed that might be it. Certainly you can't see those lines once you're past about 3-4 feet or so.

Quote:




Sorry to hear about your convergance and geometry problems

Not earth shatteringly bad. Just a refinement that I'll have to deal with in a couple of months.

Quote:



I guess i got lucky then with my sony at the time i purchased it,Great geometry out of the box, and only minor convergance problems which are off only at the bottom of the screen on the left and right, not in the middle.

Thankfully, I have nothing wrong in the middle and actual TV and movie watching is just fine. The actual picture is not suffering from any distoriton.

This is just a nip and tuck issue.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #70 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dark Rain View Post

AFAIK, there's no way to adjust convergence in the SM. The settings that are there don't do anything on the HS420 series.

According to the service manual specifically for the HS420 series, Section 4.3.5, there are several *dynamic* convergence adjustments in SM, and they show pictures of the problems that are solved by tweaking them (page 24).

That means only horizontal misalignment of the colors; vertical has to be handled by magnets. The SM codes are all in D-CONV, #0-12, YBWU-CADJ.

I haven't had any motivation yet to adjust any of these. You mean to say you can change these values, and they have *no* effect?

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post #71 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

This means two things. Here's what Crutchfield told me to do about this: It's either this or I save up and just go ISF and finish it.

I'm disappointed to hear this. I think you should be able to get static convergence corrected under warranty. To this end I simply contacted a reputable Sony-authorized service center, told him what I wanted, mentioning 1/4" of misconvergence in the upper-right of the HD raster and a slight putiry problem, and he made an appointment for next Wed morning. I was not deflected to contacting Sony (who has every interest in trying to get out of this service).

I understand that $280 per input (yikes!) is okay with some, but jeez! many of these adjustments can be made by the owner to great perfection, and there is the issue of the near-religious orthodoxy of having a true "ISF" calibration. I have determined to my satisfaction that some of the ISF standards are not required to such precision (6500K for example; 6350K would be fine) and the tendency to calibrate a "brightness" level (meaning Picture) is complete nonsense. There is no correct "brightness" of white; what is required dependes on taste, the environment, and the particular TV's tendency to bloom at high brightnesses. These limits are easy to spot.

Education is everything and is obviously my overwhelming bias. But if a TV owner does not want to learn any of this stuff or develop the modicum of skill required to do it according to published help, spending money seems the only other way.

$280 per input? Some of the most critical adjustments are common to *all* inputs, and only a couple of tweaks are required to bring any particular input into line.

Sorry, but I can't hide my skepticism!

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I'd say there're not functional.
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post #73 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I'm disappointed to hear this. I think you should be able to get static convergence corrected under warranty.

Me, too. Unfortuneately, I ran into the kind of person that I DREAD running into when you call any of these "official" phone lines.

The guy wrote me off with a script and was borderline condescending, like I was crazy or know what the hell I was talking about.

I knew within two minutes of that conversation that I was wasting my time and it was going nowhere.



Quote:


To this end I simply contacted a reputable Sony-authorized service center, told him what I wanted, mentioning 1/4" of misconvergence in the upper-right of the HD raster and a slight putiry problem, and he made an appointment for next Wed morning. I was not deflected to contacting Sony (who has every interest in trying to get out of this service).


Ok. How do I do that? How do I get past this call center and track down the nearest reputable Sony service center near me?

Quote:



I understand that $280 per input (yikes!) is okay with some,

Heh, I didn't say it was "ok", I just said it was reasonable sounding enough FOR AN ISF JOB and what I know about that. No, I'm not real thrilled at the prospect, but I'm willing to take some steps, within reason, to achieve as close to perfection as possible.

Tonight, I watched some 16:9 material that had no letterbox bars whatsoever. The picture itself shows NO SIGNS of the "convergeance" issue that I see with a straight line, like the letterbox bars, for example. Thank God for that!

Quote:


but jeez! many of these adjustments can be made by the owner to great perfection,

How?! You told me earlier that there's nothing in the service menu that can fix geometry or convergeance.

For color and other things like that...I may make a trek into the service menu at a later date, with your material here as guide.

There's really not much point in me doing that right now until the geometry and convergeance issues are addressed.

Quote:


and there is the issue of the near-religious orthodoxy of having a true "ISF" calibration.

I've never done it before and I've never heard of it before until about a year ago, when I start posting here at AVS.

To my "unprofessional eyes", calibrating out of Pro and Monitor has given me a hell of a nice picture already.

Quote:


I have determined to my satisfaction that some of the ISF standards are not required to such precision (6500K for example; 6350K would be fine) and the tendency to calibrate a "brightness" level (meaning Picture) is complete nonsense. There is no correct "brightness" of white; what is required dependes on taste, the environment, and the particular TV's tendency to bloom at high brightnesses. These limits are easy to spot.

This is where we come into uncharted territory for me.

Quote:



Education is everything and is obviously my overwhelming bias. But if a TV owner does not want to learn any of this stuff or develop the modicum of skill required to do it according to published help, spending money seems the only other way.

What did you have in mind?

Quote:



$280 per input? Some of the most critical adjustments are common to *all* inputs, and only a couple of tweaks are required to bring any particular input into line.

Sorry, but I can't hide my skepticism!

Me, too.

Truth be told, I'm really well satisifed right now. If I could get the minor geometry/convergeance issue easily taken care of...I'm really not sure how much better, within reason, my PQ can really get on this TV.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #74 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

(1) Ok. How do I do that? How do I get past this call center and track down the nearest reputable Sony service center near me?
(2) How?! You told me earlier that there's nothing in the service menu that can fix geometry or convergeance.
(3) For color and other things like that...I may make a trek into the service menu at a later date, with your material here as guide.
(4) There's really not much point in me doing that right now until the geometry and convergeance issues are addressed.
(5) This is where we come into uncharted territory for me.
(6) What did you have in mind?
(7) Truth be told, I'm really well satisifed right now. If I could get the minor geometry/convergeance issue easily taken care of...I'm really not sure how much better, within reason, my PQ can really get on this TV.

(1) I haven't a clue where you live, but Sony-authorized service is usually identified that way in the Yellow Pages. And then there's that possible referral from a Sony-TV dealer who looks like they might care about you.
(2) & (4) No, sorry, I wouldn't have said that. There are adjustments in service mode for most geometry corrections (all distortions of vertical lines, aspect-ratio, and overscan) and for dynamic convergence. If you have a problem with *horizontal* lines bowing as they approach the right picture edge, for example, or with vertical displacement of color (color fringing of horizontal lines), yes, *that* is magnet-ville. But that shouldn't stop you from calibrating even more important aspects of your TV, such as black level, color accuracy, white temperature, focus, gamma -- all those things that the ISF guy will slave over for $$. None requires perfection in convergence or geometry before meaningful adjustment can take place. For example, any problems I have with horizintal lines, purity (colored patches), and static convergence *are still there.*
(3) Please! It's easier than you think at present, and I certainly believe it's really the key to enjoyment.
(5) Well, it was for me, too. The "white-cloud" standard for white is *excellent* and is further proven in 2 months' use. (Article #03.)
(6) I was referring to ISF calibration. I wish there was another, less snobbish, choice. It may be that, in your city, there is a trained tech who can do what is needed, ISF or not, and charge a fair price. Thing is, then you remain dependent on somebody else's expertise. If you learn how to do some of these things for yourself, you can tinker for free forever after! I've tried to convey what I have learned, but the terse language of this engineer may not suit some folks, and I don't know what else I can do except document what worked for me, basing my claims on long-term engineering and digital-imaging expertise as a base. (And a certain fearlessness in these matters.)
(7) This is good! I really would go to some trouble to find a service center who will talk to you. Speak to its manager, as I did, and act a bit like you know what you need. Don't let anyone treat you like an idiot!

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post #75 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

The curving of horizontal lines has no fix in service mode that I can see, and I've really looked. I have a bit of this problem, too, and I am having a good "magnet guy" come out next Wed to try his magic. I'll report the results. (My service-labor warranty is about to run out!)

I had an unexpected result in this area. The convergence of my upper left corner was off. And the horizontal lines kind of drooped down as it approached the end of the screen. It was quite visible when the info box that displays what video source you are on came on the screen. No magnetic fields outside of the TV accounted for it.

Well, looking in the geometry fix, I didn't see anything in the guide that really described my problem, so I skipped that and went to fix something I could tackle, the convergence issue. For the first time, I pulled up your 16:9 matrix of dots (thank you!) and saw a few other minor changes I wanted to make here and there, so I went to town.

I adjusted everything under the convergence category, starting with the overall convergence of the screen, then going to one side of the screen, then the smaller areas. But when I was done, I was actually surprised, My convergence was much better in the upper left (not perfect, but close), but unexpectedly, my geometry was far better and the drooping was gone.

There seems to be some connection to geometry in the convergence settings, but darned if I know which combination did it. I adjusted too many things, and I didn't see the result until after I had saved the changes.
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post #76 of 2962 Old 05-27-2005, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmccorm View Post

I adjusted everything under the convergence category, starting with the overall convergence of the screen, then going to one side of the screen, then the smaller areas. But when I was done, I was actually surprised, My convergence was much better in the upper left (not perfect, but close), but unexpectedly, my geometry was far better and the drooping was gone.

There seems to be some connection to geometry in the convergence settings, but darned if I know which combination did it. I adjusted too many things, and I didn't see the result until after I had saved the changes.

Well, *that* is interesting! Do you mean when you say "the overall convergence" that you followed the procedures for adjusting the hexapole and other magnets inside the cabinet? Or did you address only the settings in D-CONV in service mode?

I'm not surprised to hear that there is a connection between convergence and certain geometry parameters, since both are accomplished with magnets (including coils energized thru the adjustments in SM). When I previously diddled with computer monitors, I found purity (dark or off-color patches), convergence, and warping of the raster all could be affected by holding *one* magnet near the tube and variously aligning it. Everything I did involved compromise -- which was the "art" part of it.

Could you be a little more specific about what you did? And did *anything* you did affect color fringing of horizontal lines?

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post #77 of 2962 Old 05-28-2005, 06:45 AM
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Yeah, I'm eager to see what jmccorm did as well.

Based on what I've read here and seen with my own eyes...I might not need the magnets.

But I really want to be baby walked and be absolutely sure on this, so I'm going to re-read this thread, download all relevant material in regards to the 960, have a pen a paper, watch this thread, and maybe have myself a very careful adventure this weekend.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #78 of 2962 Old 05-28-2005, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Just to make sure you guys have the "right stuff" for this, here (again?) are the relevant service-manual pages. Sorry I had to split it to avoid the 512K file-size limit.

[Addendum: These pages apply to all the XS955 sets, too.]

 

xbr960_conv_geom_p1-6.pdf 302.4365234375k . file

 

xbr960_conv_geom_p7-10.pdf 476.783203125k . file

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post #79 of 2962 Old 05-28-2005, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Well, *that* is interesting! Do you mean when you say "the overall convergence" that you followed the procedures for adjusting the hexapole and other magnets inside the cabinet? Or did you address only the settings in D-CONV in service mode?

D-CONV only. I did not stop at #12 but I did the whole range of options (even though they weren't covered in the document), all the way up to #23 (SSLB). I did see that there seems to be some sort of relationship of opposites between the 0-12 and 13-23 ranges, but I didn't explore that. I just got lucky. There might be some key there.

And did *anything* you did affect color fringing of horizontal lines?[/quote]

The color fringing of horizontal lines (color above and below the lines running left to right) improved significantly. Wasn't perfect, but better. Before, along with the drooping if the input source info box, the vertical misconvergence was obvious. Now, it is much more subtle.

I'm having problems reproducing the original problem, though, which is starting to make me wonder.
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post #80 of 2962 Old 05-28-2005, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Did a little fooling around with dynamic convergence this afternoon (the D-CONV settings). My set wasn't way off, but I did improve things a bit. Here's a few things I learned:

(1) The service manual discusses using D-CONV #13 CPY2 to copy your 480i or memory-stick convergence settings to HD 1080i. Surprise! There is no "CPY2," and the settings are now common to *all* of the scan modes as far as I can tell. #13 is HVCA, range 0-63, and mine is at 63. I haven't yet deduced what it does.

(2) In D-CONV, the central convergence setting is #12, CADJ for "center adjust." I would do that one first using one of my fine-dot patterns. (See article #08.) The service manual shows what #0-11 do. 14-23 are the same as 2-11 and appear to be "sub-settings" in Sony's parlance, i.e. offsets. With a range of 0-63, 31 is treated as center = 0 offset, and all of mine are at 31, which is *not* what is shown in the service-data chart for my set. It appears therefore that the real setting for, say, RSAP = RSAP + SRSP; same for RUMB + SRUM, RLBW + SRLB, etc. The "S" settings are the "base" settings, and one tweaks 2-11 to fine-tune everything. I left all of the "S" settings alone. A note on the chart says they're "different for the 30XBR910." I guess I would concentrate only on #0-12.

(3) I revisited all of my LANDING settings from #0 thru 6. #6, TESW, turns off the corner compensation of #0-3, LT-RB, so you can choose settings for EWSP and ENSW that give a most-even color for the screen. Put up a white or gray full screen (my black crosshatch-on-gray will do), not too bright, stand back a ways, set TESW to 1, and set EWSP and ENSW for best evenness. Then turn TESW back to 0 and tweak LT-RB for best corners -- minimum color, minimum darkening. (Don't stare; move your eyes around.) I improved mine. Something a tech said to me reminded me that there *are* set-orientation adjustments, and EW and NS look like east-west and north-south to me. I ended up with different settings than I had before and a more-even screen.

(4) jmccorm: After I tweaked convergence and saved the settings, I screwed with the settings to see if vertical convergence was affected. No amount of radical twiddling of the D-CONV settings changed anything. Whatever *vertical* color misalignments I have were not affected. Maybe we are expecting too much! We'll see if the tech turns up his nose at it on Wed with "It's within Sony Specs.".

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post #81 of 2962 Old 05-30-2005, 05:40 PM
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I have a XBR 960 and I am having a slight issue with 1080i sources. With both a 1080i signal coming from my computer, and a 1080i signal coming from a DVD player, I am getting quite a significant amount of flickering especially noticeable in DVD menus or around text. This happens both on component and the HDMI input. 720P sources come in very solidly. Is there a service menu setting I could try that would change the timing of 1080i inputs that might reduce the flickering?
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post #82 of 2962 Old 05-31-2005, 11:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Mike, welcome to the worst aspect of interlaced video (the "i" in 1080i and 480i).

Alternate lines of an interlaced display are present only every 1/30 sec, i.e. any one scan line is drawn at 30Hz, and would be a very visible flicker -- except that every adjacent line is drawn 1/60th second later, and so the eye nicely integrates this interlaced set of alternatineg 30Hz fields into nice 60Hz frames, and flicker isn't perceived, especially with normal program material generated by cameras. ("Hz" = cycles per second.) The glow-persistence of the CRT's screen phosphors helps, too, although it's what can cause the "white trails" that follow moving bright objects against dark backgrounds. (Solution: Don't watch TV in such a dark room!)

Now if this display is fed a computer-generated horizontal line, one whose top and botton edges are pixel-accurate in definition, those edges will flicker, since the scan line defining them is flickering on and off at a 30Hz rate. STB and DVD menus and computers likely are your most common sources for this kind of graphic. You'll notice the TV itself generates graphics, too, but it's slightly blurred (antialiased) so there is minimal flicker.

If you switch to a progressive display of the same material, *all* scan lines are drawn at a 60Hz rate, all together, and there's nothing onscreen that can cause flicker in the first place.

On these Sony sets, 720p is resampled up to 1080i, and the resampling includes some antialiasing (smoothing) and other tricks that neatly minimize any flicker. Sony does really good resampling, as DRC demonstrates for SD material.

Broadcast material in 1080i (last night's CSI/Miami on CBS, for example -- gorgeous!) contains almost nothing that can cause flicker. You can get as close to the screen as you wish to revel in the image, and nothing looks amiss or jittery. In this sense 1080i is as good as it gets, and I can't help but wonder if (yet nonexistent) 1080-progressive would be an improvement on this. Perhaps for motion artifacts; but broadcast HD falls apart during motion because of the compression (macro-blocking), and edge-motion artifacts should be the least of your complaints!

Maybe it will be 1080p HD-DVD that will make the difference.

There are no service-menu settings that can reduce this effect, since it's an inherent interaction between the program material and an interlaced display. All you can do is choose program material that doesn't flicker, learn to ignore it, or display computer graphics in 480p exclusively.

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post #83 of 2962 Old 06-04-2005, 12:39 AM
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Well, I don't have time to get super in-depth in my tweaking just yet, but I was going to run through an AVIA disk. My question though is this:

Running the DVD on video 5 of my 34" XS, won't that only setup the component inputs? What about good old antenna and tweaking that? I know there is a ton of information ken has posted...but that's the problem. Any quick tips for AVIA tweaking is appreciated, thanks guys.
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post #84 of 2962 Old 06-04-2005, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan118
Running the DVD on video 5 of my 34" XS, won't that only setup the component inputs? What about good old antenna and tweaking that? I know there is a ton of information ken has posted...but that's the problem. Any quick tips for AVIA tweaking is appreciated, thanks guys.
I'm wondering about this myself.

A couple of weeks ago, I created in Photoshop the "perfect" color-calibration test screen (attached) for my MS slot, using the conventions of the Digital Video Essentials DVD: Blocks of the usual SMPTE colors at 75% brightness, surrounded by 75% gray. I had set up my V5 component input from the DVD player and DVE. I was surprised to learn that the memory-stick slot had slightly different rules! When I set up the four color-matrix parameters in 2170P-4, RYR thru GYB, I got different settings than I had gotten with the DVE DVD thru V5.

The two color-matrix settings in the user menu, "Default" and "Monitor," can be set up any way you wish. Those names are arbitrarily chosen by Sony. So I set up "Default" for the DVE calibration of V5 and "Monitor" for the MS test pattern.

Now, question is: Does either one apply perfectly to broadcast, especially ATSC-HD? The block diagram for these XS and XBR sets show clearly that the MS slot feeds thru the same pathway ("YUV") used by the ATSC tuner's HD output, component inputs, and HDMI receiver module, completely bypassing DSC.

So why the settings differences? Now that I have tried them both, it sems the differences are negligible and may be attributed to the DVD player's being slightly different from the MS input. (MS is a *very* direct input, a perfect way to insert test images into the TV for alignment.) I will place my bet that the MS pattern correctly calibrates color for the HD tuner, since color encoding there is digital and doesn't involve the messy NTSC color-extraction process of SD broadcast.

So that leaves the S-Video inputs and SD tuner as the unknowns. I could connect the DVD player thru S-video and repeat calibration to see what changes, but I can't mimic a perfect SD signal without additional test equipment. I guess I won't agonize about broadcast SD, since there is such color and black-level anarchy there anyway. I'll just adjust in the user menu to suit myself. But I want to know that the DVD player and broadcast HD are reasonably accurate, and I've probabnly accomplished that.

Bottom line: You can agonize over getting the TV perfect, but the program material still varies all over the place, even on HD broadcast. So you eventually run into limited returns for the effort. Maybe big-release DVDs are the most consistent.

 

Color_Calib_pattern.zip 40.4482421875k . file

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post #85 of 2962 Old 06-09-2005, 11:37 AM
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Hi KenTech and others -

Been following this thread, preparing to try and do some calibration on my KV34HS420 - same problems others speak of - dark HD via Comcast, poorly set blacks, terribly grainy display of analog channels out of the motorola box, etc.

But there are some assumptions that I feel I'm missing in terms of how to approach this:

1) Running AVIA from DVD obviously incorporates characteristics of both DVD and display set up - KenTech talked about this some in last post - I don't have a mem stick slot - so I'm guessing there's no way for me to calibrate for cable box input without including DVD in loop - is that right? No cable channel-based test targets or anything? No built in test patterns in Motorola cable STB? No way to feed a video input into the cable box? (It actually has video inputs, but manual says they are for future use and not enabled - I haven't actually tried to put anything into them though to see what happens).

2) Assuming I can use only the DVD to calibrate, what about the various adjustments on the DVD player ? Do I leave those at default and just adjust the tv? It seems logically like you would want to set up tv for a "generic" input, then further adjust the DVD settings to keep that input consistent with others - but I have no idea in practice how to do this, or in what order, or by what algorithm (I also was a scientist and EE in previous lives!).

Given the user settings, the serv menu tweaks, and the DVD's settings, what order would you go about adjusting things in to get not just the DVD input good, but also as many of the others, too? (So I use SD and HD cable, standard VHS, DVD).

3) In the various tweaks discussed in this thread, there are the MID5 settings that use that 64 column look up table - I'm not quite clear on how this interacts with the various input/picture mode combinations. Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). So MIDE is sort of an acronym that expands to 17 parameters, whose values are chosen by the column pointed to by the number in the appropriate column of MIDE?

Am I getting this right?

4) Finally, for someone who doesn't want to spend dozens of hours working on this (and can't given family and work!), could you help me figure out what changes will get the most bang for my buck, and what order to do them in? I figure black level, gamma, white level - reducing VM? Best targets to use from AVIA?

Thanks for your help!
Michael
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post #86 of 2962 Old 06-09-2005, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

No cable channel-based test targets or anything? No built in test patterns in Motorola cable STB? No way to feed a video input into the cable box?

jasperm,

I have the same set and the Comcast/Motorola DCT6200. I found out that INHD1 broadcasts HD test patterns at 7:00am EDT on Saturdays. Check it out!

Cheers!
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post #87 of 2962 Old 06-09-2005, 12:40 PM
 
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Mike,

I own the same exact set, i can guarantee you that this set will calibrate wonderfully if you know what your doing.

Firstly i would leave the dvd player settings at default and adjust the display not the dvd picture settings.

There are some service menu tweaks that will greatly improve your PQ if you know what you are doing and how to use the service menu.

Remember to write everything down before you change anything in the service menu, this will save you a lot of pain incase you forget what the original setting is or screw up.

So here's the code sequence to enter the service menu: "DISPLAY" "5" "VOLUME+" "POWER".

To navigate the service menu use the 1 and 4 keys, to change the values use the 3 and 6 keys.

To save a value setting press "MUTING" then "ENTER", the words "WRITE" will be displayed in red if it got saved.To exit the service menu just simply turn your tv off.

Settings that will fix any color decoder errors are RYR,RYB,GYR and GYB.

RYR and RYB will fix the red push, and GYR and GYB will fix the greens.

even though you have turned off clear edge in the user menu, it is not completely off in the service menu. If you want to completely disable it turn these settings to 0:

VMLV
VMCR
VMLM
VMFO
VMDL
SHOF is an sharpness enhancer that artificially shrapens the image, it's best left off since it adds noise to the picture when it's on.

LTLV
CTLV
VM
VMH
VMM
VML

turning these off to 0 will get rid of any edge enhancement to the picture, that way you can get edge enhancement from the sorce material not the display.

QPDC will increase center focus of the set, and make everything much clearer and sharp, you will need a test pattern with a grid such as the 16:9 test patterns, to see how the focus improves by fiddling with QPDC.

Then there's overscan adjustments that will fix your picture size incase your tv is cutting out any part of the image that should'nt be cut.

Firstly you will need an overscan test pattern to see how much overscan your set has.Typically you would want to keep it at 5% or lower, but i'd say 5% is just about right. maybe 4% or 3" if you can get it any lower without showing black bars around the picture.

That's pretty much it really that i did with my sony, these adjustments alone will give you a much better picture than the way it came out of the box when you bought it.

Here's a tip, before going into the service menu keep all the picture settings in the middle, and adjust them after your done with the service menu.Use the "PRO" picture mode since this gives the most accurate picture of them all and is the best to use for PQ.

Have fun, any questions feel free to ask either me or any other sony owner.Infact there's another thread i made called "sony tweaking tips", you might want to check that out as well since it gives a lot of helpfull information.
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post #88 of 2962 Old 06-09-2005, 12:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

But there are some assumptions that I feel I'm missing in terms of how to approach this:
1) . . . I'm guessing there's no way for me to calibrate for cable box input without including DVD in loop - is that right?

Yeah, that's probably right. But if you use the same input class for both (say, component on V5 and V6), you are at least guaranteeling that the TV is calibrated closely enough. I believe the DVD player contributes very little to color distortion, and you'll have to take it on faith that the cable box is similarly neutral. Broadcast-HD *material* is not completely conststent in color balance, although I find the black level to be way better than SD/analog.

Quote:


2) Assuming I can use only the DVD to calibrate, what about the various adjustments on the DVD player? Do I leave those at default and just adjust the tv?

For color you don't have any controls in the DVD player, right? So that's not an issue. But black level is dependent on what is offered by the DVD player. My Toshiba SD-3950 has settings for Standard, Enhanced Black Level, Movie 1, Movie 2, and Animation. Each tweaks the black level and brightness-span. Since my player always passes both super-black (pluge) and super-white, I have picked the setting that most closely matches other inputs in black level. Then I used 2170P-3 #13/UBOF to adjust black level to match among the inputs: DVD (V5), VCRs (V1, V3), HD (tuner-720p and 1080i), and analog cable SD (tuner-480i). Note that the UBOF setting will be *different* between interlaced and progressive signals from the DVD player.
Quote:


Given the user settings, the serv menu tweaks, and the DVD's settings, what order would you go about adjusting things in to get not just the DVD input good, but also as many of the others, too?

I would concentrate first on overall black level (2170P-1, SBRT), a color temp near 6500K (2170P-1, RDRV thru BCUT) and a neutral grayscale. (See my early articles in this thread.) Then calibrate color decoding with what the Avia disk offers (2170P-4, RYR thru GYB).

On top of this foundation, you can then fine-tune for matching black levels among the inputs/devices (2170P-3, UBOF) as well as color level and hue balancing, if needed (2170P-3, UHOF, UCOF). If you find that the blacks are color contaminated in one of your inputs (mine was 1080i HD broadcast = yellowish), you can adjust 2170P-1, CBOF and CROF for blue and red only. YOF is yet another place for black-level balancing, it seems, but I haven't used it.

Quote:


3) Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). . . . Am I getting this right?

Yep. You have it exactly right. "Getting" this is a requirement for intelligent image tweaking, as I described in Article #12.

Quote:


4) Finally, for someone who doesn't want to spend dozens of hours working on this (and can't given family and work!), could you help me figure out what changes will get the most bang for my buck, and what order to do them in? I figure black level, gamma, white level - reducing VM? Best targets to use from AVIA?

I think you are on the right track. I would go from the global to the specific, and the order in which I wrote the articles implies what order I considered important as I did this. I think gamma is *very* important, as much program material is dead-wrong in contrast in Pro mode. I highly recommend using two or three of the picture modes for your own purposes. For me, I have set Standard - Movie - Pro to be identical except for gamma, with GAMH thru GAML parameters of (respectively) 6 - 3 - 0 (and GAMS = 0). A setting of 3 is dead-on the TV standard of gamma = 2.2 and is what I use the most. But it's nice to have the others available as a simple button-press. Vivid is reserved for experimentation. I have no use for Sony's original settings!

I can't comment on the Avia targets, as I have only the DVE disk. But be sure to use the color-gun controls in 2170P-2 #1/RGBS instead of the hand-held color filters. If you want to start with decent settings, you might try settings of 14-15-7-5 for RYB thru GYB.

The current orthodoxy that "all VM is bad" is dead wrong! Certainly Sony's presets for VM are coarse and ugly, but that just reflects on Sony's lack of sophisticated judgement here, not on what VM potentially can do for image quality. I have increased its finesse and decreased the amount and choose now to use it all the time! It makes a subtle and attractive correction in a fine picture that sharpness enhancement doesn't quite match. See Article #12.

Clarification for Croc: In 2170P-3, VMLV is a temporary setting that is not saved. It always reflects the current ClearEdge VM setting, and if that's set to None, VMLV = 0. VMCR thru VMDL have no effect if ClearEdge VM is set to None. They are how you control the "look" of VM *if* it is applied. Note that some VM seems to be added by other settings that are not under user control, possibly 2170P-3, one or more of F1LV thru CTLV. I keep these set to "no effect", as I don't like what they do to the image.

Overall focus is a compromise between focusing bright objects and focusing dark objects, as the scanning dot "blooms" as it gets bright. I will be writing an improved article #07 soon about how to do this more precisely, including the internal focus control on the HV transformer. QPDC *adjusts* the overall dynamic focus of the screen, and its effect is mostly visible in the center. But other adjustments in the 2170P-4 "QP--" series affect the sides, top & bottom, and corners. Using anything but a 2-dinensional high-contrast pattern will mislead you into focusing wrongly -- don't use the raster lines as a criterion! One could argue that an HD broadcast of a sporting event and its long shots of the crowd might be the best pattern. If you diddle, write down the settings before changing them.

DF and DQF are left-right spot-shape balance controls and should maybe be left alone for now. My article will describe how to adjust them using Sony's official methods.

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post #89 of 2962 Old 06-09-2005, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

SHOF is an sharpness enhancer that artificially shrapens the image, it's best left off since it adds noise to the picture when it's on.

Croc, you misunderstand this. SHOF (which is never *completely* off) is the setup for the Sharpness slider in the user menu, along with SYSM. SYSM is by far the crudest sharpness enhancer, and you might try turning SYSM to 3 (off) and SHOF to 2 or 3 to see the effect. The two *together* seem too much for me, but I think the coarse SYSM is the culprit. In particluar, SYSM is fairly gross on fine detail when set to 1 (max effect). SYSM may have a role in attempting to resurrect really mushy SD video, but it is way overkill for good video.

Note that SHOF has *no* effect when Sharpness is set to 0, but SYSM = 1 or 2 has a minimum effect at aoubt 12-15, softening the image below that. SYSM = 1 can produce strange double edges at some settings. Yecch!

None of these *add* noise. If there is grain or noise in the original video, *any* sharpening will emphasize it along with the picture detail. At a reasonable viewing distance, the eye has no trouble ignoring the noise even if the picture detail has been optimized (sharpened) to taste. Some video has almost no noise at all, and these sharpening controls are then capable of overempahisizing edge detail to the point of nastiness before making noise a problem. Balance is the key.

Again, there are few hard-and-fast rules. Do what suits your eye at a *reasonable* viewing distance, and don't go up-close to the screen on SD material and complain about the noise! The purpose for adjustable sharpness controls is to compensate for sharpness losses in the video material, which varies all over creation, and you should "tune" it until your eyes are pleased as you sit and watch a program or DVD. Think of them as *equalizers.*

If you would please read the PDF of article #12, you will understand more about the image-tuning parameters in 2170P-3 and MID5.

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post #90 of 2962 Old 06-09-2005, 08:15 PM
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Hi - Thanks for another very clear, helpful post. Regarding the DVD controls, however, there are color controls - I just upgraded from an older Samsung to the pioneer 588a, and it has these video controls:

Sharpness, Brightness, Contrast, Gamma, Hue, Chroma Level, BNR

Haven't tried it yet (it's a Father's Day present, so I don't know about it yet...except that I ordered it, of course) so I can't say how they function.

Michael
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