THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 30 - AVS Forum
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post #871 of 2973 Old 01-30-2006, 06:31 PM
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As a noob to service menu tweaks I want to thank all the SM experts here. I've lurked here for over a year or a so posting occasionally but never had the courage to attempt tweaks for fear of disaster. ADU's recent advice about disabling 16:9 auto detect finally made me do it.

Now I'm correcting geometry/position issues (BTW not related to the JUMP setting) and plan on doing much more, but SLOOWWWLY and carefully. Now that I've actually seen the service menu, a lot of the posts in this thread don't seem so cryptic.

I have a writtten/digital record of every change made.

To all the other noobs- READ THE PRECAUTIONS AND INSTRUCTIONS ON PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD. It can be done, take your time, and know a way out.

Thanks again to the experts!
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post #872 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffD2. View Post

To all the other noobs- READ THE PRECAUTIONS AND INSTRUCTIONS ON PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD. It can be done, take your time, and know a way out.

Well, *that's* worth repeating:

READ THE PRECAUTIONS AND INSTRUCTIONS ON PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD. It can be done, take your time, and know a way out. [I like that "know a way out" part!]

KenTech
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post #873 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 02:02 AM
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JeffD2.

Glad the JUMP tip worked for you. The 2170D-1/APSW parameter that Nitewatchman brought up a couple posts ago might also possibly be worth a look in your situation. Not sure how this works on the 4:3 TVs, but if APSW is set to 1 for your expanded HD, changing it to 0 might reduce some vertical overscan on the picture. Be advised though that APSW is also signal and aspect ratio sensitive on my TV, like the other 2170D-1 controls mentioned in my previous post. And if it's already set to 0 for the expanded HD, then there's probably no point complicating things by messing with it.

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post #874 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

The 2170D-1/APSW parameter that Nitewatchman brought up a couple posts ago might also possibly be worth a look in your situation.

An update/correction on this ... until I ran into an occurance of it again last night, but this time occuring with ASPT and "Widezoom" instead of "ASPW", I'd forgotten that APSW is not the only control where I've seen this odd behavior occur. This particular time it effected "Widezoom", and the value changed(I certianly didn't do it) for ASPT somehow to "52" from what it was set at "22" -- all on it's own, while I was "looking at" values in 2170P-4 controls. Now, note that ASPT=52 IS a value for settings I changed -- but only for "proper" aspect ratio to result for "Zoom" and "HD Zoom", which had ASPT=43 default values. And, ASPT=52 for "Zoom" and "HD Zoom" are the ONLY changes I made to the set defaults for 2170P-4 ASPT/ASPW or SCRL or Zoom.

If I recall correctly, I think I may have also had this odd behavior occur once with 2170D-1 "Zoom".

So, it perhaps appears that somehow, in certian circumstances when I'm switching channels or screen modes/etc from within SM, for each occurance effecting only one "screen mode" its perhaps reading the value for 2170D-1 ASPT/APSW or ZOOM from a column for screen mode/etc. right NEXT to it, and somehow using it instead --and making it stick until I change it back to the correct value ....

Again, This odd behavior involving certian Aspect ratio related settings "changing" on their own while I'm working in SM - Seems to be occuring when I'm switching channels(in my case among NTSC/ATSC off air sources - which are a mix of NTSC, 480i or 720p/1080i ), and/or screen modes with the "screen mode" button. I'm Switching channels with channel up/down button. Btw, another "roundablout way you can "switch" channels while in SM is via the user mode "hide/show" channel option. Although there have been occasions I've seen the change in Aspect ratio right when the change occured, I think I've also noticed that this odd behavior is not allways directly "noticable" when it occurs as apparently the issue could end up effecting "Full" for ASPW and 1080i even though you were using say, "Normal" screen mode and changing channels with the up/down buttons at the time of the occurance.

It's really very very odd, and I have no idea what would cause this to occur, as it wouldn't even *seem* like it should be possible. And, it has never happened "on it's own" outside of SM, thank goodness. Because of it, I have checked numerous values elsewhere several times and have never seen this occur elsewhere -- at this point at least I don't *think* anything besides a single value for only ONE of the columns for either 2170D-1 "Zoom", "ASPW" or "ASPT" is ever effected by this for each instance of its occurance - In other words, when it does happen, for each instance, only ONE of those controls, and only ONE screen mode(such as 480 normal, or 1080 full or "widezoom"/etc) is effected ... It just could be any ONE of them.

I have also noticed that at times when in SM, NTSC analog channels(although strong RF signals are actually present on those channels ) show up as just "snow" - especially if I'm just quickly changing channels --- that never happens outside of SM, and never happens inside SM with the ATSC tuner/signals ... And, I also noticed a couple of times(but not allways) when using the "QM" patterns, that afterwards - with ATSC off air channels only, the Screen turns "pink" until "something" gets "reset" - if nothing else, cycling power fixes this when it has occured.

I don't know if it is clear whether or not the post at following URL (and/or other posts from same poster from around this time) might indicate that this fellow may have experienced the same issue, but reading some of his posts from around that time, it seems at least posssible that this issue, "unknowingly" was effecting his set as well :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6068189

Jeff
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post #875 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 01:04 PM
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An update to previous posts concerning one of the "little things" on my list involving centering "Picture slider". Well, as it turns out, this turned out to be a "big thing"(and not really necessary, as I don't really care if the "picture" slider says "22" or "31", all I really care about is how it looks), and I've ended up going back to just using Picture slider at a lower value instead.

Upon further observation I found adjusting P2170P-4 : SPIO didn't really work for me -- From what I can tell, It doesn't appear to "map directly" to picture slider, as is the case with SPIC, and it appears to affect 'contrast'(and maybe gamma) in a different way than "SPIC" or moving the picture slider. Since I can't detirmine for sure exactly what SPIO "does do", I've decided to return it to set default value of 10.

I also tried lowering P2170P-1 "DRV" values. While this almost "worked" well enough, it didn't work "enough" because(even with SPIC at "0" in some cases) I would have needed a BDRV value at just slightly less than "0", to get "picture=31" which, of course isn't possible.

So, unless there is another control(besides "SPIC") in SM that allows for more "crude" adjustments to contrast than SPIC, and that maps directly to "picture slider" I'm not aware of, looks like I'd have to adjust the HV adjustment on Flyback transformer in order to be able to center picture at 31 properly -- and, I don't want to mess with that, as for just a couple of examples : 1). then, for example, I'd have to completely redefine the DRV_cut values, 2). I'm guessing I'd probably have to mess around more with the YOF/CBOF/CROF offsets, and 3) - most importantly -- there's really no reason to, since lowering Picture slider does the trick.

I did end up settling on values of picture slider of 21~23 rather than 24~25 I'd used previously, as I noticed 24~25 was still just a tad too fatiguing on the eyes. Also, I ended up going through balancing contrast from different sources/inputs again using SPIC/etc(the highest contrast source is now set with SPIC=0) - and I'm glad I did as I was never really satisfied with what I'd done on this previously.

One problem I have is that I don't spend a large amount of time watching this set, as it's more the main set the entire family uses. Therefore, it is more difficult for me to notice any small things that may be apparent when watching programming material that need to be changed. So, The past couple of nights I've worked in SM, I've been trying to concentrate more on also "watching" quite a bit of programming from various sources, and that helped me to realize I still needed to bring picture slider down a couple more notches, as well as do a better job balancing Contrast from different sources.

Jeff
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post #876 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

. . . looks like I'd have to adjust the HV adjustment on Flyback transformer in order to be able to center picture at 31 properly -- and, I don't want to mess with that

The most important reason is that particular (actually Screen or G2) voltage is set with a voltmeter to a 170V specification, not by any visual criterion. See section 2-5 of the service manual. Thus, except to rescue a monitor that is dimming from old age, it's not a setting that should be "tweaked."

From my previous experience tweaking with this adjustment on computer monitors, it significantly changes the threshold at which the electron guns begin to activate, i.e. it would interact most strongly with _CUT and SBRT settings and would likely affect all three guns nearly alike.

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post #877 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 05:22 PM
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Updating some of my earlier remarks re gamma and the CXA2151/2171 controls on pages 4-7 to try to better reflect the most recent info we have (hopefully in such a way that it reduces rather than adds to the confusion, while still maintaining some level of continuity in those earlier posts.)

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post #878 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

The most important reason is that particular (actually Screen or G2) voltage is set with a voltmeter to a 170V specification, not by any visual criterion. See section 2-5 of the service manual. Thus, except to rescue a monitor that is dimming from old age, it's not a setting that should be "tweaked."

Absolutely Ken. And I do have a VOM and the ability to do so, and have done this adjustment on other CRT's. Usually the control is even "labeled" "screen" ....

[update]: your right -- It should pretty much effect all 3 guns evenly, so - if say, it's perchance the case the current adjustment from the factory isn't correct and If Iwent about adjusting it to 170V, as I believe I mentioned I'd think chances are very good I'd likely need to redefine Greyscale (DRV/CUT) -- with lower or higher values, as well as you mention -- change SBRT value. Perhaps I didn't say that right .... I am likely very wrong about any possible effects on the CBOF/CROF part of it, don't know what I was thinking about, there. Just trying to find some sort of possibilities to look at for possible "answers" for differences we seem to be seeing in these sets.

[end update]

All I was trying to do, is, I was just trying to "get at" what might explain why my set seems "so bright". My purpose was certianly not to suggest the screen voltage control could be adjusted properly based on visual means, or that it should be "tweaked" so to speak.

I don't have the KD34XBR960's Service manual (just the XBR2 manual as posted), and since I didn't know the necessary voltage spec or anything that may be "model specific" about it, that's the main reason I decided not to post anything about actually properly performing the adjustment(or check).

It might be interesting to check it to see what it is set at. Perhaps if I need to take off the back of the set for another reason, I'll check it -- although, that is not as easy as it sounds given where the set is sitting/moving it to a safe place/etc. Even drilling the hole to access the focus pot with a screwdriver+checking/adjusting focus involved a bit of a contortionist act. BTW, Hard to say in an "exact way" - but, on my set if I did make any improvments adjusting the focus control it was extremely minor -- I also couldn't improve on the SM dynamic focus adjustments from the set defaults.

Anyway, if screen voltage IS set properly on my set, it just seems like to me my CRT just must be "especially bright" for some reason, or that there must be another "contrast" control in SM I'm not aware of which could be lowered.

In any case, perhaps needing picture slider in the 25% range actually does make sense for a "calibrated set", anyway

Jeff
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post #879 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 06:21 PM
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I have a quick question for you guys. I owned a Panasonic 34" (forget the exact model) but it exploded on me twice. I traded it in for the Sony XS955 34" and just set it up this past week. I'm using DVI->HDMI from my HD receiver.

I find the picture quality is far worst on standard digital and some high-def programming. It seems to be more grainy in high-def and a tad.. blurry.. in standard channels.. (not sure if blurry is the right word..)

How could this be? I thought the Sony would have been much better than the Panasonic. Is it a matter of tweaking or am I doing something wrong?

Someone mentioned I should try tweaking the DRC on the set, but I dont believe the XS955 allows for manual tweaking of DRC.

Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!

Rob
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post #880 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

it just seems like to me my CRT just must be "especially bright" for some reason, or that there must be another "contrast" control in SM I'm not aware of which could be lowered.

You would bring up "brightness" just as I'm trying to clean-up some of my earlier and perhaps somewhat ill-advised remarks on gamma, wouldn't you, Nitewatchman.

If the picture looks a bit overly bright and lacking in depth though, then gamma might be an issue to look into rather than the gain controls.

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post #881 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

You would bring up "brightness" just as I'm trying to clean-up some of my earlier and perhaps somewhat ill-advised remarks on gamma, wouldn't you, Nitewatchman.

If the picture looks a bit overly bright and lacking in depth though, then gamma might (unfortunately) be the issue to look into rather than the gain controls.

Update: oops think I misread some of your comments a bit at first -- sorry!

Update2 : Oh -- BTW -- even before your current editing, back at the time, I actually found ALL of the discussions/posts from yourself and other posters quite useful in one way or another ...

Note that when I was talking about "brightness", I wasn't referring to what SBRT or "Brightness" control "does", or the gamma settings, or for 480p/720p/1080i, "YGN" -- I was referring to the overall appearance of "brightness" of the entire picture(inclduing from SD/Composite S-video sources) ... as it soley relates to the "picture" slider control in user menu-- I.e. "contrast" related.

My picture looks beautiful with Picture slider at 22~25, brightness slider at 31, SBRT=28. There's nothing washed out about it. From what I can tell --- and it is hard for me to "read" those charts from the "Gamma" charts from AVIA/etc, it's at about gamma ~2.4 with all the Gamma settings in 2170P-4 = 0 -"(pro mode defaults). Which is where I have it set for all pic modes except "movie".

I was only trying to #1)find a way to be able to center the picture slider - NOT that it's important that I do so except just to Have it "centered" at a nice round 31. As I explained, #1) I Can't seem to do that with SPIC, or with SPIO, or by redefining the DRV values - as I'd need less than "0" for instance for the "BDRV" setting, and #2). I thought it would be interesting to Get some sort of an idea why some folks are needing to raise DRV values on their sets to center their picture slider, when I'd have to lower mine beyond what is actually possible, since I can only go down to BDRV=0, and that's not quite "low" enough for Picture=31, even with SPIC=0 for highest "contrast" sources.

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post #882 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 07:24 PM
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Well, I decided to look up a service center for my area via Sony's website. I got one result and paid for a delivery of my TV to the SONY AUTHORIZED service center. The Sony KV36HS500 got over there, and there was a 75$ up front fee. I paid it.

The problems were convergence, focus, and geometry. The real problem was blurry/fuzzy at the left and right middle edges. Anyways, the technician there told me the TV was inside specs and that Sony does not build Televisions to be under this type of scrutiny. My Television was inside of specifications and I have to just live with it. I tried to explain that I did make headway with my television via the service menu, but he didn't want to adjust anything for me. He felt that adjustments on this CRT direct view, would never achieve anything constructive. I am receiving the exact same television that I sent over.

It's disheartening. Are the things he told me true? Do I just have to live with the geometry problems and fuzziness at the left and right? I am so very frustrated.

I thought I could just pay for a service, and not have to worry about juggling all these darn service menu settings. There were other settings that would cap out before achieving the best convergence. I hoped that they could fix this. What do I do now? I want my Xbox 360 to look very very good. THE darn text on Kameo is fuzzy on the right and left compared to the middle.
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post #883 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ncasebee View Post

He felt that adjustments on this CRT direct view, would never achieve anything constructive.

All I can really say is that has not been my experience with Sony KD34XBR960.

I do think some of what he said is true -- but only to a certian degree ... For instance I think it is true "focus" on the screen edges is never going to be as good as in the center .... However, unless he checked it+tried to improve it, I don't see how he could say any "adjustments" wouldn't achieve improved results ....

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post #884 of 2973 Old 01-31-2006, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbc009 View Post

I have a quick question for you guys.
Rob

I wish I had a good, quick answer for you :-)

I can quickly tell you that I had somewhat similar "thoughts" when I first turned on the sony set in comparision to other sets I have had - although certianly some of those have certianly had their problems as well, sometimes problems that couldn't be "fixed".

If anything, I've learned about this Sony set it is how *big* of an apparent difference small improvements can be - not allways visable "Right" when you change something, but after you have a chance to sit back and look at it/compare/etc. a bit. But, At the same time, I've also learned, given the complex nature of the SM and the MANY input+scan rate/pic mode specific settings/etc, how complex a task it can sometimes be to "track down" and properly implement and document(which is necessary) the "small improvments" you need to make. At times, quite a bit of time, effort and experimenting have been in order.

With my particular set, although I've made other "adjustments" as well -- probably the biggest improvements resulted from slightly modifying DRV~CUT values for "better" greyscale, using Dynamic convergence adjustments available in SM to solve a problem with convergence issues on far left and right side of screen(moreso left than right) visable on vertical lines in crosshatch pattern -- and -- saving the best for last -- utilizing Ken Tech's findings concerning "image processing" settings - and especially so where his latest findings are concerned.

Jeff
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post #885 of 2973 Old 02-01-2006, 07:56 AM
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I'm just frustrated about my expierence with this technician. A Sony Authorized Service Center, and they can't even tweak ONE setting for $75. Frustrating. There were also vertical convergence error, but he didn't want to use magnets because he says it's just not worth it. Huh. I wish they could have made my tv at least look somewhat better.

Anyway, it's a combination of focus and convergence error, so I might just try tweaking again. I just don't like doing it very much. The juggling act of settings makes me feel like I'm never getting anywhere.
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post #886 of 2973 Old 02-01-2006, 12:36 PM
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I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with something. i have a kd30xs955, and i was messing around with the picture settings, like mpin, pin, ucp, lcp,ppha, lang, vang, vbow, lbow, and for some reason the lines are a little off and I cant seem to get them right. Is there any way I could reset them to the original numbers, or if someone could give me their numbers and I could go from there. I wrote all the original numbers down but i must have threw them away cleaning. up. so any help would be greatly appreciated.


please someone help me.

kyle
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post #887 of 2973 Old 02-01-2006, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Update2 : Oh -- BTW -- even before your current editing, back at the time, I actually found ALL of the discussions/posts from yourself and other posters quite useful in one way or another ...

That's surprising!

If the gamma settings are at the Pro mode defaults, I think that should be the "darkest" setting.

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post #888 of 2973 Old 02-01-2006, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigkev4123 View Post

I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with something. i have a kd30xs955, and i was messing around with the picture settings, like mpin, pin, ucp, lcp,ppha, lang, vang, vbow, lbow, and for some reason the lines are a little off and I cant seem to get them right. Is there any way I could reset them to the original numbers, or if someone could give me their numbers and I could go from there. I wrote all the original numbers down but i must have threw them away cleaning. up. so any help would be greatly appreciated.

kyle,

Per Ken's Post #871 above, please DO NOT attempt to try to fix this by resetting the SM!! This will ERASE other CRITICAL factory adjustments.

I've got a couple other ideas, but I need to bounce them off a few people with a little more smarts first, hopefully tonight or tomorrow. So just hang loose for a little while, and let's see if we can come up with a better, safer and less destructive solution for situations like this.

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post #889 of 2973 Old 02-01-2006, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

That's surprising!

Well, I think one of the best things about AVSforum is when knowledgable folks discuss their ideas concerning a particular issue, such as "gamma", as well as provide links to other sources/etc ...

Although I do feel it is important to post accurate infomation as much as is possible, and it is also good when that information is corrected by others -- every comment doesn't have to be 100% "right" in order for the reader to beneifit, as I think Some of this stuff is like following an "investigation" - which I think helps the reader "learn", improve their "thought processes" and make good decisions concerning what "to do" about issues they may be experiencing, especially when we don't have a nice big list of descriptions of service codes from Sony .... (The descriptions of listings from the XBR2 manual helps, but) ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

If the gamma settings are at the Pro mode defaults, I think that should be the "darkest" setting.

Yes, P2170P-4 GAMM, and the GAMS~GAMB "lookup" are all at "0" for a "0" GAMM setting, "brightness" slider+test patterns for setting black level work out perfectly with SBRT=28, with "brightness" slider at 31, and with UBOF's between 0~5 (0 only for my DVD player, 3~5 for everything else). But the picture slider needs to be 22~25(which works out just perfectly) or it hurts my eyes after a bit of viewing. (the "brightness" of the "contrast" is the best way I can think to describe it, there's probably a better way to say it). And, from what I can tell using "gamma charts" from AVIA/etc(another place where it helps If I take off my glasses and view it from a certian distance), Gamma appears to be right at about 2.4 with those settings(Including Pic slider at 22~25).

Again, all I'm talking about on this is that I can't find a way to "get" picture slider up to "31" midpoint value and achieve the same results as I'm getting with "Picture"=22~25 -- I don't want to spend much more time on this, as it really isn't necessary, but if anyone has any *suggestions or thoughts about how I could do this, or any thoughts concerning *why* this is occuring I would appreciate it.

* - Note that I tried redefining lower DRV settings(can't go low enough, as BDRV would have to be less than 0), I tried adjusting SPIO(which "sort of worked, but seemed to affect things "differently" than the picture slider, which Is something I didn't want), and as much as possible tried changing SPIC to lower values. Again, Not that it really matters, it doesn't , as "picture" slider at 22~25 works great.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Update to above : In short, looks like the weak link here(my eyes) were "playing tricks" on me ... I discovered this tonight as other family members are complaining about the "dim/dark" picture today .... So, I turn all the lights off and give it another look ... Surprise, surprise -- "Picture=28" appears to now be "the" setting to use ... Which, since previously I had the SPIC values at "4" for the highest contrast sources(which I now have at SPIC="0") makes sense, as I had looked at this closely enough on previous occasions when I'd found "Picture=24" to be "the setting", and that is where it was for a long time with no "complaints" from anyone ...

I expect what happened was something along the lines of : Along with going about improving "balancing contrast" settings among different inputs/etc, my eyes must have gotten "too used" to the dimmer picture with the lower Picture slider setting+in a complete dark room enviornment to the point I thought anything else was "too bright".

Although it might seem to be a simple thing, Doing this sort of thing "by eye"(even with the use of Test patterns for White levels) and getting "proper" contrast/white levels with "picture" or "contrast" controls has allways seemed to me to be one of the most difficult "eyeballing" adjustments. But, when it is set "just right", it shows ..

Now that I have Picture slider closer to 31, Perhaps I might revisit 2170P-4 "SPIO" again or lowering 2170P-1 DRV values a couple of notches to get Picture slider up to 31 ... Or, then again, maybe I won't

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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Again, all I'm talking about on this is that I can't find a way to "get" picture slider up to "31" midpoint value and achieve the same results as I'm getting with "Picture"=22~25 Update to above : In short, looks like the weak link here(my eyes) were "playing tricks" on me

Ah! Join the club! I have determined that, for myself, watching in a very dark room screws up everything, as though my eyes need a "context" in which to judge a "natural" TV contrast (overall perceived brightness). I set mine so Picture = 31 was at the dim end of my preference range, and I find myself using that, 36, and 41, depending on the material. That said, I find that my eyes compensate well for whatever choice I make -- as long as there is some light in the room. The "background light" test patch on one or both of DVE/AVIA test disks is useful; my illumination is similar, and it seems fine. My perception of color is properly dominated by the TV -- the argument for not having too-bright an ambient illumination.

Nitewatchman, have you tried to balance overall brightness with 2170P-4/SPIC? I found HDTV much too bright, ordinary SD broadcast about right, and my DVD player over HDMI to be impossibly dim. Accordingly, my SPIC settings for those three inputs are 1, 4, and 14, respectively, out of a range of 0-15. Original factory settings: all at 7.

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HELPFUL NEW CHARTS

Motivated by Nitewatchman's complex posts and to save myself from going nuts keeping track of all of the service-mode parameters that affect specific factors, such as black level, color saturation, etc., I have prepared some new charts to organize this stuff. Fill in your own values.

Columns are initially labeled according to Sony's service manual, but sometimes the meaning of the column labels changes a bit from place to place. Particularly ambiguous is the term "ATSC," as it certainly includes QAM cable-digital tuning in some places but not others. Digital SD broadcasts are included in the ATSC column in one chart but under "DSC" in another. For my set, the settings for 2170P-4/SPIC~SHUE that apply to broadcast SD and to my DVD player connected to V5 are inseparable, even though they appear in different columns. But I've shown the charts as they appear in the service manuals.

See attached PDF file of five pages. It prints in *wide* orientation. Pease call my attention to any errors and suggest improvements. Let me know if there are font problems on Windows PCs.

[Edit1: Made very small changes and corrections to charts. Decided to commit to Arial font. Edit2: Eliminated superfluous column for _DRV and _CUT tables; added color-matrix table (RYR~GYB) to section III.]

 

GS&ColorCharts04.pdf 239.6318359375k . file
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File Type: pdf GS&ColorCharts04.pdf (239.6 KB, 44 views)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Nitewatchman, have you tried to balance overall brightness with 2170P-4/SPIC? I found HDTV much too bright, ordinary SD broadcast about right, and my DVD player over HDMI to be impossibly dim. Accordingly, my SPIC settings for those three inputs are 1, 4, and 14, respectively, out of a range of 0-15. Original factory settings: all at 7.

Yes, I believe I've mentioned doing that in recent posts, including revisiting that very procedure, currently. I'm am doing my best to continue to refine the "balance", which defintely seems more difficult than it sounds like it shoud be.

I experienced similar results with the factory settings - which were SPIC=7 for almost everything - except for "DRC"(SD 480i/etc), which was set at SPIC=4 from the factory. As you might imagine, this only helped make HD "burn out your eyes" "bright" compared to SD. The factory "SCON" settings in 2103-1/2103-1 seem to be right on the money, or close -- "4" for RF, "6" for YC/CV ... although, I can't quite decide if "5" or "6" for SCON is better for CY/YV at this point, or where exactly "SCON" for RF needs to be at -- 4~6 is in range, but even "8" isn't too high for some OTA NTSC stations. Right now, contrast for the 'brightest' OTA NTSC analog station I receive is matched with "SCON=4" to it's digital "HD" counterpart. So, Some analog OTA stations via the tuner are "dim" and some equally match their ATSC/"HD" 720p or 1080i(during upconverted local/syndicated programming or HD programming) counterparts. Oh well.

In my case, it is also my DVD player, (but only at 480p+via component) that's the "dimmest" source, but not quite that "different" from other sources ... I currently have SPIC for most sources at "0"~"1", with exception of 480p via component from DVD player at SPIC=7.

Probably the most difficult one to eyeball for "balancing" contrast among sources for me has been for 480i ATSC. It has allways been "bright" and "garish" and hard to deal with. I have Many stations that are multicasting and sending 480i "subchannels" -- several which are simulcasting their analog programming at 480i SD digital, only one I'm aware of (from talking to one of their engineers) that I know with a fair amount of certianity that the analog+SD digital should more or less "match", more or less. With it's SPIC at 0 also -- Last night, I was also able to make a improvment for 480i ATSC by lowering its UBOF setting by 1 value, and also help "balance out" things "brightness wise" among sources. I do recall when setting black levels among sources that I had a particuarly difficult time with 480i ATSC - The internal QM pattern with the relatively small white box "sort of" helped a bit, but not quite enough.

Also, I know there are other ways of doing it(such as lowering DRV values and raising other SPIC values), but It also turned out I found the slight modification of "CBGN~YGN" values I've been playing around with useful when it comes to the "too bright" HD I was dealing with. For instance ,YGN factory setting was "5", and since I'm currently using SPIC at "0" for say 480i ATSC or component -- With YGN setting at "5", SPIC=0 was still too bright for HD in comparision -- but, YGN at "4" is just perfect with "SPIC=0 or 1 (haven't decided 100% on that one yet)" for 720p/1080i ATSC.

Of course, YGN can't be just adjusted "independantly" on it's own -- If you have CBGN~YGN settings of 5-5-5, to lower YGN to "4", you'd have to lower CBGN~CRGN to 4 as well. Along with that "consideration", After further refining, also concerning "color balance" and striving to achieve the same results with the same RYR~GYB values for all sources - , right now I have CBGN~YGN at 5-5-4, changed from the factory default of 4-5-5. Haven't quite settled on the "exact" values for these yet, along with other adjustments for color(SCOL/SHUE/etc), trying to get the best match for using the same RYR~GYB values for all inputs/ sources+scan rates. I think I have pretty much ruled everything else out for CBGN~YGN other than 4-4-4, 5-4-4 or 5-5-4, so it will likely be one of those. If I needed it a notch "brighter", from what I can tell(I haven't looked at this extremely closely) changing CBGN~YGN to 6-6-5 would only change white balance as well as would be the case going from 4-4-4 to 5-5-5.

Anyhow, On the PICTURE=31 thing -- I did go back last night and look more closely at "SPIO". Lowering it to "7"(It may need to be "6" however) from the factory default of "10", and ended up with "Picture=31" while looking closely at programming material/etc did seem to work this time without causing any I'll effects. However, I also tried lowering SPIO farther and adjusting SPIC upwards as necessary, that may not have turned out so well -- I'm not talking about "big" differences here, but it still looks like to me that adjusting SPIO is for example, effecting gamma to a very slightly different degree than say, the Picture slider or "SPIC".


Update : Oh, I do have a ambient light set up (behind the set) ... but, I had decided not to use it when I was working on this a couple of days ago, in order to hopefully maximize the "differences" I'd be able to see while trying to further improve the balance of "contrast" among sources .... I think it did help in that regard, but, it didn't work so well for trying to "change" Picture slider up to mid-point values, which I was trying to do at the same time to "kill two birds with one stone" in a sense ... Which evidently didn't quite work .... I did turn on the light last night ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Motivated by Nitewatchman's complex posts and to save myself from going nuts keeping track of all of the service-mode parameters that affect specific factors, such as black level, color saturation, etc., I have prepared some new charts to organize this stuff. Fill in your own values.

Thanks Ken -- that should be very benefical for folks. Along with use of printed out versions of the servicecode chart from the PDF, The method I've been using is to keep track of everything in a Word document, with "scribbled notes" used(and then added/edited into the word document)when actually making changes in SM. that word document includes not only my changed settings+the defaults/etc, but also notes/do it lists/thoughts/etc. It is a LONG document, and I don't know if anyone but me could deciper some of it. - It's so long in fact, when I update it, I usually only print out a seperate, "updated" version, unless a "lot of stuff" changes in the "big" file. At first, it was more of a hassle to deal with, but now, generally I'm not changing a lot of different settings/values, and so it has worked out well for me.

Jeff
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

All I can really say is that has not been my experience with Sony KD34XBR960.

I do think some of what he said is true -- but only to a certian degree ... For instance I think it is true "focus" on the screen edges is never going to be as good as in the center .... However, unless he checked it+tried to improve it, I don't see how he could say any "adjustments" wouldn't achieve improved results ....

Nor mine with my 36XS955. I significantly improved overall focus by drilling an access hole to the physical focus control inside the set and redoing everything according to the service manual's procedure. This is what I wrote up in my previous article #13 starting here.

I called out a service tech because I had an overall vertical red fringe on horizontal lines, and I suspected that was a magnet tweak on the neck of the CRT. I was right: the tech fixed it in a minuite while I monitored the results for him.

But when I pointed out the noticable vertical misconvergence in the upper-right corner, a *slight* cyan patch left of center, and curvature of horizontal lines about 1/8 the way down from the top, the tech smiled and explained that those types of defects were theoretically correctable with magnets, but that you could lose your mind trying, as all of the changes interact! You twiddle a magnet in one place to cure the cyan patch, but now the convergence is out in the upper-left. You correct the horizontal curvature at the mid-upper-right, but now the upper-right corner is much too dark and reddish.

I understand, as I have gone nuts tweaking the convergenbce on an old RCA TV monitor with *only* magnets. So much of it interacts that making the correction is more art than procedure.

I have decided for now to take the tech's advice and leave well-enough alone. He wasn't avoiding work on my set; I believe he was being honest.

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post #894 of 2973 Old 02-02-2006, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

I don't know, but actually "brightness" does actually work for me to best describe what we've been talking about when it comes to the "picture" slider or SPIC, rather than using brightness to refer to black level ... But, that's just me, and it would probably be confusing for folks, and it's no wonder some of this stuff is confusing.

(I deleted the reply to your post, where I wring my hands about term ambiguity, as it no longer applies.)

Some very knowledgeabe folks who write good online technical articles on this stuff have opined that the three terms should be these:

Black Level = what you think it is. Replaces the idiotic "brightness" term forced on us by the manufacturers.

Brightness = Overall appearance of brightness in the picture as determined by the white-level setup. Corresponds to what you and I perceive but would horrible confuse folks who already have bought into the manufacturers' definition. I would reluctantly accept "contrast," although I don't like this because I am a digital-photo junkie, and this is NOT what contrast means there.

Contrast = mid-tone brightness, as established by the gamma setting. I really don't like this one -- just call it "gamma" ferchrissake! That would be precise.

Proposal: I would like a real "contrast" user control, meaning what it means in photography: a steepening of the response curve in the mid-tones, also known as an "s-curve." This is an era of digital processing of video, and it is a regular feature of pro-grade video cameras. Why not in the display? Some broadcast TV, no matter that gamma is maxed out on the TV, has really insipid mid-tone contrast, making eneryone look pasty. A "contrast" increase would fix this.

Switching to a lower gamma in the TV, an option we can set up for one of the four Picture modes, already compensates nicely for grimly dark TV. ("Lost" and several regular network dramas come to mind.) I did this for myself for "Movie" mode, and I now can't imagine doing without.

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post #895 of 2973 Old 02-02-2006, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Since the new charts make it easy for me to do this, for those who might be interested, here are the settings that define black level and contrast ("Picture") for my set. This results in normal user settings of Brightness slider = 31 and Picture = 31 to 41.

In 2170P-3: (6500-6700K white point, no pink/green tint, linear grayscale. References: 6500K-calibrated computer monitor, mid-day sunlighted white clouds.)

07-SBRT = 29

08-RDRV = 43
09-GDRV = 27
10-BDRV = 21

11-RCUT = 43
12-GCUT = 21
13-BCUT = 24

15-SBOF = 7 - 7
16-RDOF = 30 - 32 (for User-menu choices Cool - Warm, respectively)
17-GDOF = 31 - 31
18-BDOF = 32 - 30
19-RCOF = 30 - 32
20-GDOF = 31 - 31
21-BCOF = 32 - 30

In 2170P-3, my 13-UBOF settings vary from 3 to 5, balancing black level among the various inputs. E.g. SD broadcast = 4, HD broadcast = 5.

In 2103-1, 02-SCON is set to 6 and 8 for RF and CV/YC, respectively.

In 2170P-4, 01-SPIC is used to balance the contrast ("Picture") among the various inputs. My settings for DRC - V5,V6 - HDMI - MS/ATSC are 4 - 4 - 14 - 1, respectively.

The global adjustments, 04-SPIO ~ 06-SHUO have been left as set at factory, 7 for all.

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post #896 of 2973 Old 02-02-2006, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(I deleted the reply to your post, where I wring my hands about term ambiguity, as it no longer applies.)

Note: I deleted my post also, to hopefully cut down on the "clutter" in my posts a bit, as the portion of it you quoted seemed more than suffiencent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Some very knowledgeabe folks who write good online technical articles on this stuff have opined that the three terms should be these:

Agree 100% with your post, the terms they came up with(well except for their "contrast" term), and your take on them.

A "real" contrast control would be nice for that "pasty stuff" - which was causing me difficulty in some cases when trying to find the best values for SPIC, balancing overall brightness(as defined by the "experts") and user menu Picture slider/etc.

As I think I've mentioned, I also have movie mode set up with lower gamma -- Have GAMM=1 set up for GAMR~GAMB=3 for movie mode. Although It does come in handy at times, I must also admit that I rarely use it, and that I actually like the "dark" look of "Lost"(at least the HD version) ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Nor mine with my 36XS955. I significantly improved overall focus by drilling an access hole to the physical focus control inside the set and redoing everything according to the service manual's procedure. This is what I wrote up in my previous article #13 starting here.

Using your article #13 (precision focusing - I had also checked dynamic focus adjustments in 2170D-4 QPAM~DQP and your article #7 on a previous occasion, but revisted them again when using article #13) made the procedure probably one of the "funnest" things I have done concerning calibration of this set. And although it just turned out to be the case with my set that it wasn't necessary, it's nice now that I don't have to wonder about whether or not it is as good as it can be. It's allways been a question I've had with various sets, and I end up checking the focus on just about all of them, and some of those sets DID need the adjustment.

It just happened to turn out in my case on my XBR that the adjustments pertaining to focus/dynamic focus apparently had already apparently been properly adjusted at the factory.

It is possible however a small improvement may have resulted via my adjustment of the focus pot -- I thought I may have noticed a slight improvement, anyway -- but it's hard to say. Because it was fine as it was, and if it the "knob" did end up being in a little different spot that it was after I adjusted it for best results with the "focus" test patterns/etc, it wasn't much ... say, something along the lines of probably 10:35 o'clock position for one of the "slits" on the knob intead of from the factory 10:45 or 10:30.

What *did* help on my set was adjustment of the D-CONV settings with a cross hatch pattern up, as I had horizontal misconvergence(and it was pretty bad, enough to cause "blurriness" in those areas - which is why It's good I did this before looking at the "focus" adjustments) visable in vertical lines in what would be in the "side bars"(outside of 4x3 "area") on this 16x9 tube - moreso on Left than right, and to a different degree in the corners. The D-CONV settings worked marvousely(spelling, I'm being lazy today sorry) to correct this.

I can detect a slight bit of vertical misconvergence(but only with a cross hatch pattern up) , at extreme top+bottom of screen -- more significant at right top corner perhaps -- but only present on the very "top and bottom" visable cross-hatch pattern lines. It is not effecting the next line "inwards" at all, so can't be effecting much more of the screen than say, 1/2" or less from top or bottom. It's not noticable at all during programming material, and I see no reason whatsoever to "mess with it" so to speak.

Geometry Isn't absolutely perfect, but for the most part I'm very happy with it, as it was from the factory. For the most part, I wasn't able to improve on geometry(straighting out "lines" that are for the most part already straight) with the relevant P2170D-1+D-2 settings.

I did reduce overscan a bit, and "sort of" centered the raster -- There is also a slight bit of a Horizontal Linearity issue - referencing screen center, occuring about in the left and right "middle" of each 1/2 left+right side of screen. It's not noticable -- excepting via "measurements" via comparison of the horizontal width of the "little squares" in a cross hatch pattern. I did notice(and I wasn't expecting this) that adjusting HCNT also improved this H-Linearity issue. HCNT is now at "40" it was "37" from the factory. Actually, I paid more attention to minimizing the H linearity issue than centering the raster when I noticed that HCNT effected H linearity (which is something I didn't quite expect). I didn't check the raster centering precisely by "opening the shutters(HBLK/etc)" yet, but have that on my list. V-linearity seemed to be right on from the factory, if it had been off, or I needed to adjust it because of other changes I make, V linearity of course is quite "adjustable" from within SM.

I haven't messed with any of the MID geometry/overscan related values yet, don't know if I ever will, except if I want to perhaps try to reduce overscan a little more(it's mostly at about 4% currently) -- Mainly, If I ever get around to it, I do want to reduce overscan more for "HD Zoom" mode specifically -- although I adjusted from the set defaults so proper aspect ratio would result for "zoom" or "HD zoom" via setting ASPT=52(the set default of 43 made for example - "squashed" circles), It looks like with "HD Zoom" It's cutting off "more" of the top and bottom(and the sides too for that matter) of the frame(say from a 4x3 upconvert from a station sending 1080i) than it should be, or more than what gets cut off with "zoom" mode from SD sources. This is especially noticable, and mostly an issue for me if letterboxed 16x9 programming is being sent within a 4x3 frame, within the 16x9 1080i or 720p ATSC format actually being sent by the station.

Anyway -- I did have the back off the set at one point just to "peek around", and noticed that it did get the chevron magnet treatment at the factory. There are 6 or 7 I could see placed in spots on the back of the tube.

I don't know how significant(or if they are really significant at all) deflection/geomtery issues concerning the alignment of the set would be if the set were instead, say being used in say, Japan, or if it had been made in asia/etc. In any event, in my case perhaps it is nice to know that my set is facing directly west, and that the PA plant where the set was made is only a bit more than 200 miles away from my location, at probably the same latitiude - such that the Earth's magnetic field probably has about the same effect at the set's manufacturing site as it does at my location.

I think I've covered just about everything somewhere or another that I've encountered or adjusted/etc on my set, I hope some of it is useful to someone in some way.
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Any reason why I would not be able to download the files you have attached in this thread? I keep getting error messages that Internet Explorer cannot open because the site can not be opened or can't be found.
Thanks,
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Any reason why I would not be able to download the files you have attached in this thread? I keep getting error messages that Internet Explorer cannot open because the site can not be opened or can't be found.
Thanks,
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Right click, open in new window...!
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I know this is probably impossible, but is there be a way through the service menu to re-lable the picture settings from "Vivid," "Standard," "Movie" and "Pro?" I'm not referring to the inputs.

Given all the tweaks to SNR, BRT, GAMM, etc., it would be nice to be able to rename the picture settings "HD," "SD," and "DVD," etc.

If not, I guess "Standard" can become the picture setting I use for SD, and "Pro" or "Vivid" could be for HD, while "Movie" could be for DVD.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Since the new charts make it easy for me to do this, for those who might be interested, here are the settings that define black level and contrast ("Picture") for my set. This results in normal user settings of Brightness slider = 31 and Picture = 31 to 41.

I know I've posted these before, in a more scattered fashion -- just to post them all in one place and perhaps for a bit of fun to "compare" with your settings -- here's those values for my set, for Brightness slider=31 and (hopefuly mostly) Picture slider = 31



2170P-1 - Hopefully ~6500K just via eyeballing and looking at clouds/etc. Again, sorry I can't offer anything more definitive than that. There is No pink/green tint or other color contamination(including checking all inputs with user menu "color" slider at 0, or grey scale patterns from DVE or AVIA/etc.), so it appears to be linear greyscale from what I can tell. Note that the factory "warm" offset seemed awfully close to 6500K, however it does have quite the greenish tint to it.
07-SBRT = 28

"neutral" setting for color temp :

08-RDRV = 32
09-GDRV = 16
10-BDRV = 7
11-RCUT = 32
12-GCUT = 17
13-BCUT = 9

for User-menu choices Cool - Warm, respectively :

Note that I've mostly used "cool" offset for experimental purposes - although it is currently set for a bit cooler color temp currently ..

Note that for "warm" offset, I have values set up so the RDRV~BCUT values are the same as what resulted with the factory defaults for "warm" offset(which were same as service code listing), and in brackets, I've added what those corresponding DRV/CUT values are.


15-SBOF = 7 - 7
16-RDOF = 31 - 31 [32](for User-menu choices Cool - Warm, respectively)
17-GDOF = 32 - 32 [17]
18-BDOF = 33 - 33 [9]
19-RCOF = 31 - 31 [32]
20-GDOF = 31 - 31 [17]
21-BCOF = 31 - 27 [5]
22-DCOL = 0 - 0 (note, set default was "1" for cool offset, "0" for Warm)

In 2170P-3, my 13-UBOF settings vary from 0 to 5, balancing black level among the various inputs. For my DVD player(480i or 480p component) UBOF=0, everything else ranges between UBOF=3~5. HD ATSC broadcast(or Memory stick) at UBOF=4, RF(for analog NTSC OTA broadcast mainly) is at UBOF=5, CY/YV is at UBOF=3 - for Dish network 311 receiver and JVC S-VHS Deck via S-Video connections.

In 2103-1, 02-SCON is set to 4 and 6 for RF and CV/YC(the factory defaults), respectively.

In 2170P-4, 01-SPIC is used to balance the contrast ("Picture") among the various inputs. note that On my set, I've noticed can't set a seperate value for 480i via V5/V6, it uses "DRC" value.". My settings for DRC - V5,V6 - HDMI - MS/ATSC are 0 - 6 - (HDMI not used) - 0 or 1(haven't decided for sure on that one yet), respectively.

As YGN this effects "white balance" for 480p/720p/1080i (via V5/V6 or internal ATSC tuner) as well Note that CBGN~YGN factory defaults for "component" were 4-5-5, my current adjustment is 5-5-4. I would need lower "SPIC" values for 1080i/720p(and they are at 0 currently), or lower drv settings/lower "SPIO" values with YGN at "5".

The global adjustments, 04-SPIO ~ 06-SHUO had factory defaults of 10-6-7, my new values(only changed SPIO) are 7-6-7.

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It could never happen, but I was thinking how interesting it might be if we could do a "side by side" comparision of our sets Picture quality, using the same sources(of course, for example a cable STB's output might of course vary and require different settings from what I need for say, YV/VC for my Dish network receiver, or JVC S-VHS deck).

It would be like trying to guess how many sheep I can count jumping over the moon before I fall asleep tonight, and while I have no doubt there might be some differences -- I'd almost be willing to bet the results would be more similar than the differences among our sets for the above numbers might seem to suggest.

Jeff
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