first -- Another quick note on the new charts Ken posted yesterday -- they also helped "remind me" that although I had made sure I'd set up everthing properly to "customize" the picture modes for all the inputs/sources/etc, I was using at the time .. When I added "MS" recently, I had missed changing the value to "0" for the seperate column for "ABLT" for "MS" -- and finally realized this last night when I first glanced over the charts. Don't know why I didn't notice the slight change when switching between "Pro" and other pic modes with MS, but I thought there was something that was a little "off" ... now I know what it was ... Thanks again Ken ...
Originally Posted by KenTech
I just did a little tinkering this evening with CXA2171/CBGN~YGN.
Thanks for giving those a little more of a look. Your findings on this match my observations on this to a T. And, you have done a much better job explaining it than I have explained my observations and tinkering with this.
Originally Posted by KenTech
But why did Sony "unbalance" the factory settings for the two components Cb and Cr in the service-manual chart -- and apparently also for Nitewatchman's 34XBR960? Mine were set alike: CBGN - CRGN - YGN at 4 - 4 - 4 or 3 - 3 - 3, in different columns.
Unless someone tinkered with it(or the set was serviced) between the factory and the time I got the set(and for various reasons described below, that may be a possibility), the factory settings for CBGN~YGN on my set were 4-5-5.
I don't think I have seen much possible sign of any such tinkering or "add'l" servicing being a possibility elsewhere, although its hard to say. For instance, all 2170P4 SHUE/SCOL set defauts match the servicecode listing from the service manual, as do most other values you'd expect. I don't know, but, the "factory" SPIO setting of "10" along with most "SPIC=7" - (the big exception being DRC SPIC=4), might perhaps seem a bit unusual.
[update] Almost forgot : Other possible unusual "clues" that perhaps might suggest there was some "tinkering" or servicing going on with my set between the factory and the time I received the set : #
1). The "factory" default on this set for CBOF/CROF = 31/31 for 720p - although all other YOF/CBOF/CROF factory defaults match servicecode listing. So does perhaps(as I just happened to notice) the CBOP/CROP "factory" default of 9/36(36/37 in Servicecode listing).
2). Also, unusual perhaps especially as noone else has reported seeing these issues : a). the unusual, "sporadic" incidences I'm occasionally getting when only working in SM concerning values for specific columns of either 2170D-4 ASPW/ASPT or ZOOM occasionally "switching" on their own to values in the "next column"(and sticking) while I'm switching channels or screen modes at times when I'm working in SM(never outside SM). b). As well as a couple of odd things which have occured in SM concerning signals from internal NTSC or ATSC tuners. More detail avaialable concerning what I'm experiencing with these issues (a+b) as I reported in a more accurate and detailed fashion in Post #876
It was "supposed" to be a new set -- but, nevertheless I suppose it is possible it wasn't entirely "new". My KD34XBR960 is a warranty replacement for another set. On that other set, long story, but essentially a bad diode in an aux power supply led to a 3 month wait and a set replacement rather than a repair. I know, it sounds crazy, and there is more to it than that, but that is the only info on it I was able to verify as 100% accurate.
I do know we took delivery of the Sony set in July 05, date of manufacture on the sticker says Jan 05. Also, I did notice when at the store "picking out" which set to replace my RCA F38310 with(of course, I had already decided there was only one choice, given the choices I had), they had no fewer than 5 open box KD34XBR960's sitting on the shelf. I also noticed the owner's manual said I was supposed to get some sort of "welcome" screen when I turned the set on for the first time, but I didn't get that.
Originally Posted by KenTech
I guess that if there is a characteristic in the color-processing chain that must be compensated, then Sony might go for the CBGN/CRGN unbalance. Or if one of the processing chips has a lower output for one of those color components. But my 36XS955 came with them at 4 - 4 - 4 out of the box. Go figure.
I note that the color-coding of the cells for these values in Sony's chart indicates that some are set "at F[actory] A[djustment]" and others "at C[ircuit] B[oard] A[djustment]." (My interpretation.) Perhaps if one of the circuit boards is replaced, service personnel have to attach an oscilloscope and use these settings to "trim" the color-component waveforms to the correct amplitudes.
For whatever "reasons", on my set there seems to be slight mismatchs for "color" between #1). those scan rates effected by CBGN~YGN/CXA2171 chip(480p/720p/1080i) and 2.) everything else(DRC). As well as a very slight mismatch between a)480p and b)720p/1080i. And, for whatever reasons, My best guesses are either #1). is that whoever(factory or someone else? I don't know with 100% certianity see above) made any "CBA" or "FA" adustments managed to perhaps not find quite the "best" settings for their adjustments, or for CBGN~YGN(if they even adjusted those at all) to best compensate for these slight mismatches I'm getting or #2). This set is on and used by various family members on average about 12 hours a day. It just doesn't make much sense to turn it off much of the time, as someone will just come in 5 minutes later and turn it back on. Perhaps it's possible some "drifiting" has already occured, although I'm fairly sure this issue has actually been there all along.
Follows is just some of the evidence I have for this -- -- note that in one of my previous posts on this which might suggest somewhat different results -- at that time I was also "experimenting" with 2170P-4 SLO - In some cases changing it to "7", from the "factory" default of "6". This time, I left SCLO at the default "6" for everything.
#1). Using the Blue+white QM PATN 6, 46 and 66 for 1080i, 480p and 720p respectively, and turning on blue only gun via RGBS = 1 -- With the "factory" defaults for CBGN~YGN -- While I found I could adjust SCOL+SHUE for the "most even" blue(to where I can't even see a "boundry" between top+bottom 1/2 of pattern) --- For 720p AND 1080i ... I need different SCOL/SHUE(Or UCOF/UHOF) settings in order to get the same results from 480p ATSC(QM PATN=46). I think this may partly explain why finding out exactly how the "MTRX" control in SM worked and how to use it was important for me.
#2). Using the "factory" defaults for "CBGN~YGN" and adjusting SCOL/SHUE for best results with QM PATN= 6 (1080i), or PATN=66(720p) -- I do need to set SHUE=32(default 30), and SCOL=33(default 32) for 720p/1080i ATSC for best results. However, that change in SHUE from default doesn't really "work" well for Red gun only, or Green gun only tests/adjustments - I can get it to "work" to somewhat of a degree, but I have to use quite different, and unusual values for RYR~GYB than I need for everything else( in my case 480i DRC, basically) - which is 13-15-5-3. And again, the results for 480p(QM PATN #46) are somewhat different.
#3). I've played around with trying all the slightly different values for CBGN~CRGN I could think of to try, to see what works best to match 480p with 720p/1080i with the QM PATN x6 series of patterns, while adjusting SCOL/SHUE as necessary as well as trying to find the values which will allow me to use the same, or nearly the same values I need for RYR~GYB for 480i/DRC.
There is nothing I've found that "works" perfectly -- However -- I think the best I can find is CBGN~YGN at "4-4-4" -- It's still not 100% perfect solution, and CBGN~YGN "5-5-4" might be the better 'compromise" -- I'm not sure at this point. With CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4 - 480p and 720p/1080i with internal QM PATN #6 "series" match the closest, with "SCOL=34" for ATSC 480p/720p/1080i - best with 720p+1080i -- This also turns out to be the best "match"(more or less) I can find for 480p via component, but with SCOL=33. Note that SCOL=33 works best for 480p ATSC as well, but I can't set it differently - I can of course set SCOL=32 for 480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and then raising 2170P3 UCOF values for 720p and 1080i - before messing with anything like that though I want to find the permanant values for CGBN~YGN I'm going to use). No change in SHUE from "30" default is required for any scan rate.
Also note that concerning all the slightly different CBGN~YGN values I've tried, the factory defaults appear to be about the worst choice of what to use out of all of them concerning these slight "mismatches".
With CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4, The "best" settings for RYR~GYB for 720p/1080i ATSC are still not the same as the 13-15-5-3 I need for 480i/DRC -- Instead, after a little more "fine tuning" and checking last night -- the best settings for RYR~GYB for 720p/1080i using CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4 turn out to be "14-15-6-4" (and I was about to detirmine this time that is slightly noticably better than 14-14-6-4) -- Which Is perhaps interesting that Ken had posted he had came up with those same values for his set for 1080i with a recent recalibration using the QM patterns/etc. But, on my set for 480P component V5/V6, it turns out the best settings for RYR~GYB are the same as everything else -- "13-15-5-3". This provides for pretty much "perfect" color balance for all scan rates involved(only with 2 slightly different RYR~GYB settings - luckily which I can choose from user menu per input and pic mode), and I can't seem to find any "better" settings - not only concerning CBGN~YGN, but also the P21704 SHUE/SCOL offsets/etc.
#4). What I thought was also interesting was -- When I was experimenting a bit with setting "SCLO=7"(I know it says set it with a scope, but for one thing, I don't have one currently) several days ago instead of the "factory" default of "6" -- In which case, I found CGBN~YGN setting of 5-4-4 (servicecode listing default BTW) worked perfectly with 720p/1080i WITH RYR~GYB at 13-15-5-3. However, that wasn't the case for 480p -- including 480p via component. I also noticed raising SCLO to 7 also made the issue mentioned in #5 below involving S-Video input to become "worse". So, even though at first glance it seemed SCLO was a global setting that would have the same effect as turning up the "Color" slider, or adjusting 2170P4 SCOL, or 2170P-3 UCOL offsets -- that didn't seem to quite turn out to be the case.
#5). As you say, and I also have observed and reported-- 480i/DRC or NTSC isn't effected by these settings or the CXA2171 chip -- but -- neveertheless, I do wonder if perhaps the following issue might still in some way be "Related", but only in the sense that on my particular set I've also found a slight bit of a color balance "mismatch" between inputs in one other place, which doesn't involve CXA2171 CBGN~YGN :
Even though Color tests show "right on" results for 480i component via DVD(or 480i ATSC via internal test patterns), for All three guns used indivdually with :
#1). "SCOL=33" (factory default was SCOL=32 for everything, SHUE=30 for everything - again note that I have left "SCLO"=6, although I did experiement a bit with "SCLO=7") ---
#2). RYR~GYB 13-15-5-3 ...
Via CV/YC (S-video) (AVIA or DVE color tests played from DVD) -- I'm getting excellent results with these settings(and centered Hue/Color sliders) and 2103-1 SCOL=8, SHUE=10 -- with "blue gun", and "Red Gun" -- BUT, with "green" gun, for best results Hue slider needs to be set to "G1" - (or 2103-1 SHUE adjustment at SHUE=11/etc) Trying to change RYR~GYB instead doesn't help, GYR~GYB at 5-3 are still the best values.
Again, since I'm not getting this from 480i component or internal ATSC pattern at 480i, I don't know what is going on with this. Could be something with the DVD player via S-video, or perhaps the s-video input itself and any "CBA" adjustment/etc -- Although, I'm not getting this with this DVD player via s-video vs. component hooked up to a another set - so that would seem to take the DVE player out of the "mix".
Originally Posted by KenTech
If I see color aberrations that push blue *and* yellow or red *and* green, I'll now think about trying a correction in CXA2171 -- for 480p, HD video, or HDMI, that is. Anything that goes thru 480i DSC processing doesn't go anywhere near this chip.
In my case, I allways knew something looked a bit "wrong" about the color with 720p/1080i. I noticed it most being an issue with "green" - seemed to be too much of it, or "unnatural" looking Green. But, it wasn't really apparent enough to be able to "quantify it" as Red+Green push(or probably more like "not enough" Blue+Yellow), as opposed to perhaps issues with the broadcast material/etc. But, I'm quite sure now that's exactly what was happening.
After changing CBGN~YGN from 4-5-5 to 4-4-4 (or 5-5-5 - I haven't decided on that yet or for that matter SPIC=0 or 1 for 720p/1080i ATSC) I think I can be reasonably sure just a "tinge" of Red+green push is what I had been getting with the "factory" CBGN~YGN settings of 4-5-5, as, in addition to what I've seen with the color bars/etc, --- those "unnatural" greens(it also effected flesh tones slightly) are now gone.
If there is anything going on now with CBGN~YGN at "4-4-4", and "SCOL=34" for 720p/1080i ATSC -- it may be a slight "electric blue" "push" you'd mentioned you had an issue with ... . I'm not sure yet, and hopefully I was just seeing things --- There was a lot of "blue" in this week's "Smart Gardening" episode and it looked just wonderful -- but Last night the fellow's blue shirt on the PBS HD Mexico cuisine show was awfully "electric blue" looking ... Even though of course in my case my QM #6 pattern with blue gun is perfectly even across the screen with the current settings, and tests with Red or green only are showing excellent results as well. Hopefully, it was just his shirt and the lighting involved ....
If not, perhaps it may be turn out to be the case that "5-5-4" is my better "compromise" setting for CBGN~YGN - In which case It works best to lower "SCOL" for 720p/1080i to 32 (note that SCOL=32 also works best for 480p in this case) for best results, and use RYR~GYB=13-14-6-4 .. which in this case, also works best for 480p - unlike the differences in RYR~GYB needed between 480p and 720p/1080i with CBGN~YGN at 4-4-4.
I've tried using both "5-5-4" or "4-4-4" "options" and the differing required SCOL settings for each for CBGN~YGN now(but only for a few hours each), and at this point I'm not sure which offers the better "compromise". I think it's "4-4-4" but may require a little more (and longer) closer observation of actual programming. I know in this case I'm just changing the color saturation(gain) by lowering or raising both CBGN+CRGN with the sam values - but the question is I think - Is it a tad " more" or a tad "less" less saturation that is the best "compromise" here --- 2 "ticks" up for SCOL, or one "tick" up for one value for Cb/Cr.
So, In any case and in conclusion, I've been able to make improvement, but it seems there are still some slight color "mismatches" going on between inputs/scan rates that it seems I have no way of completely "fixing" with SM (or user menu for that matter) adjustments. It is slight enough that at least so far with current settings(with perhaps exception of the "electric blue thing at 720p/1080i), It's not noticable when viewing programming. I may be able to find a slightly better "compromise", and I'll continue to look, but it is difficult to do as It the mismatches are not very significant.
2/4 Update : Last night, went through a couple of my different options again, and have finally decided CBGN~YGN = 4-4-4 turns out to be best for my set.
One perhaps interesting thing I noted was that in SM and using RGBS 2/4 and the internal QM PATN #4/6, #24/26, #44/46, #64/66 -- as I mentioned earlier RYR~GYB at 14-15-6-4 is best for 720p/1080i, but 13-15-5-3 (confirmed with AVIA/DVE via DVD) is best for 480p, just as it is for everything else (480i component, 480i ATSC/i.e. DRC). However -- I left the QM patterns up for 1080i and went outside of SM, and noticed that with the DVE green or Red color filters, RYR~GYB=13-15-5-3 appeared to be the better choice -- Now, I know there can be errors in these filters(and that seemed easy to spot for the DVE Blue filter), but what was odd was that using RYR-GYB at 13-15-5-3 outside of SM with the DVE Red+blue filters perfectly matched my results with RYR~GYB 14-15-6-4 + RGBS 2/4 inside of SM. Probably just a "coincidence", but it just seemed odd and thought I should mention it ...