THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 33 - AVS Forum
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post #961 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

They only SHOW you, in the "video" user menu what those factory defaults were, with little "dots". They don't effect what happens to the picture, you do that by changing the slider yourself

Doesn't clicking the Reset button on the remote (or is it in the user menus?) move the sliders to the "default" positions all at once? Then these presets establish what those "factory" settings will be. On my 36XS955, it's moot, as those "dots" are established by read-only settings in one of the "blue" SM groups.

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post #962 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Doesn't clicking the Reset button on the remote (or is it in the user menus?) move the sliders to the "default" positions all at once?

Yes, and although I had a hard time understanding ( my fault Not his) I realize now that's the function ADU is likely referring to.

I suppose that would be useful if either/or : #1). you couldn't set up different slider settings for different inputs if Mode memory = on isn't available on your set model, or 2). if you have chosen to use "mode memory" off, or 3). also to return to "preferred" values in any case when experimenting or making certian adjustments in SM relating to the slider in question. OR Perhaps most importantly, 4). To quickly return to your "preferred" settings after making adjustments to the sliders to compensate for differences in program material.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Then these presets establish what those "factory" settings will be. On my 36XS955, it's moot, as those "dots" are established by read-only settings in one of the "blue" SM groups.

On my KD34XBR960 It's in the "blue" QM section - For instance, UBRT is "QM" Control #15. It's not read only, though, I just confirmed this by Changing "UBRT" for "standard" pic mode from "32" to "46" and writing the change ... The white dot position changed for the brightness slider, and it stayed that way(at 46) after I powered the set off, and powered it back up outside of SM.

Note that the white dot didn't change when I was "viewing" the user "video" settings while making the change, but after I wrote the change, exited the User menu, then reentered the user menu, it had changed to reflect my new value.

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post #963 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsc View Post

Matt,

I really do understand where you're coming from.

I'm just wondering - don't you think there's a chance that there is some detail that may be there, but not yet visible? Kinda like when it's a dark scene and by turning up brightness you find that there is detail you didn't even know was there? So maybe you bump up your brightness setting just a little so you can see what the director intended for you to see.

Now that's not adding anything to the signal, it's just "bringing out" or "exposing" the detail.

My interest is in exposing as much of the "intended" detail as I can. And I see there may be more than one way of doing that. And it's important to understand that our tv sets, as they've been manufactured and set-up at the factory, may not come to us in such a condition that we can view all this intended wonderful detail - that's why we calibrate right?

The first task is to explore the settings to discover those that "expose" those details without adding things in.

The second comes from having a full understanding of what the tv's s/w and h/w is doing to the signals. We might come to learn that there's circuits or code that actually "dial back" or attenuate details within the signal so that something must be done to "dial" those details back in. But maybe there's no suitable adjustment that does this, and the signal has to be massaged so that, in the viewers perception, from the appropriate viewing distance, this once attenuated "detail" is now exposed. And it could very well be that the only way to see this detail is by "adding in" something, possibly a little edge enhancement, so we can "perceive" what would have been there.

Either approach is simply to bring out what we were supposed to see. This is why I don't exclude the possibility of some edge enhancement.

Steve i understand what your getting at but you have to understand about the source material as well.

DVD for example, it's not going to look any sharper than what i see,it's as good as it gets, if your expecting ultra sharp pictures that detail just is'nt there..By that thought your thinking about HDTV and you are wanting HD resolution from a DVD that's only limited to 480i, it's just not possible to add stuff that's not there.

I've fiddled with those settings a while back on the MIDE5 table when i first got my sony in 2004, and the only sharpness enhancemnt i have seen from using that MIDE5 table is just giving the Picture a cookie cutter appearance.It tricks the eyes into being sharper by making the outlines thicker,but in reality it's just making the picture unnaturely sharp and grainy.

I'm satisfied with no enhancemnts being done to the picture, and DVD on my set is being produced as good as it can possibly be,it's not going to get any sharper,by then your just thinking HD when it's only a DVD resolution

I guess to get to the point what i'm saying is that your expecting too much from DVD.DVD is not HD, people are expecting HD resolutions from DVD when the detail just is'nt there in the first place.
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post #964 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 08:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

YOn my KD34XBR960 It's in the "blue" QM section - For instance, UBRT is "QM" Control #15. It's not read only, though, I just confirmed this by Changing "UBRT" for "standard" pic mode from "32" to "46" and writing the change ... The white dot position changed for the brightness slider, and it stayed that way(at 46) after I powered the set off, and powered it back up outside of SM.

Well, well, if this is true for my set too, I will be a very happy camper, as I am always returning my menu sliders to "center" when tuning in new program material. I thought I tried this last spring. I will try again and report back!

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post #965 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 10:09 PM
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Hmm. Not familiar with the mode memory feature, so perhaps that's something that was added after the XBR800s. And perhaps that's why the UPIC - UTMP controls are in different places in the SM. The User Menus aren't very smart on the XBR800. From what I gather from your remarks above, it sounds like my TV operates the same as yours with mode memory OFF.
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Originally Posted by Kentech View Post

Doesn't clicking the Reset button on the remote (or is it in the user menus?) move the sliders to the "default" positions all at once?

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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

I realize now that's the function ADU is likely referring to.

Precisely. So far, Sharpness (USHP) is the only User control I've reconfigured like this, because as mentioned before, it simply wasn't possible to drop the value low enough in the SM to fit my prefered level to the default Pro/USHP slider setting of 32 ticks (or dots as the case may be).
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Originally Posted by Kentech View Post

if this is true for my set too, I will be a very happy camper, as I am always returning my menu sliders to "center" when tuning in new program material.

I'd give it a try Ken. As Jeff mentions, you may not see any change to the picture while adjusting UPIC - UTMP in the SM. But when you press RESET on the remote, the User Menu sliders should snap to the new positions. Sorry for doing such a lousy job of explaining this earlier.

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post #966 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Hmm. Not familiar with the mode memory feature, so perhaps that's something that was added after the XBR800s.

I think I'd read somewhere(I think it was in a review of the XBR960 in one of the A/V mags) it is a new feature they added to at least some of 2004 "line" of sets -- not sure which all models are included. But, maybe the XBR910's have it as well, don't know.

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. Sorry for doing such a lousy job of explaining this earlier.

Again, it was MY misunderstanding - My fault, and again my apologies -- Thought you did a fine job after Ken mentioned the reset button and I realized what you were talking about .... If you would have mentioned the "reset" button, what you were talking about would have finally made it "into" my thick skull ...

Would be interested if Ken or anyone else finds a setting on this to be able to control the user menu "ClearEdge VM" choice when you hit the reset button. If there is one in SM somewhere, I couldn't seem to find it, so it reverts to factory defaults for the "clear edge VM" settings for different pic modes when you press reset button : defaults to "high" Clearedge VM setting for vivid, and standard(I think, might be remembering that one wrong), and "low" for Movie Pic mode, and "off" for "pro", which makes it less useful for me given my customized pic modes, and that I have "standard" for normal viewing.

It also didn't work for "mode memory=on" to turn "mode memory=off" first and set these settings just one time for all inputs, and have the my settings for the "little dots"(centered) actually apply to the sliders for all inputs given use of reset button/etc after I turned "mode memory=On" back on. Except for "pro" pic mode of course, which already had centered values with the factory defaults for all inputs.

So, with Mode memory set to "on", I had to go through every input and change QM/UPIC~UTMP for all inputs+pic modes to my preferred values.

I did learn something useful out of this that I'd never noticed before, as I'm not using HDMI currently, and normally have the HDMI input ("video 7") set up as "skipped" in User menu : I found I can "look at"(or modify) the HDMI specific SM columns when I'm switched to "video 7"(the HDMI input on this set). Where there are scan rate specific settings, looks like It's only 480i I can "look" at. Even though there's not a real "signal" there, the "HDMI" info screen in "HDMI Info" section of SM shows "480i 4x3". Checked a few values for HDMI specific columns such as "CBGN~YGN" settings for HDMI just to make sure. So, I can use that to some degree to set up HDMI specific settings for customizing pic modes, as well as (but just for 480i apparently) the 480i HDMI specific P2170-3 image processing settings - This is helpful as that way I won't have as much "work" to do when I add a HDMI device in the future.

Funny thing -- -- I recall trying it once back when I first got the set just to see if the button worked, but this time I had to go into the owner's manual to help me "figure out" how the reset button worked (LOL) -- It says you have to be in the "video" menu to use the reset button to reset the picture settings to "factory defaults" ... Puzzling, since I tried selecting the "video" menu Icon from the menu (in which case the video menu appears), but nothing happened when I hit "reset" ... So, reading that DID however(oddly enough) make me realize I had to actually "move over" into the "video menu settings" themselves in order for it to work ... A wise "fumble fingers" precaution I suppose, nevertheless, I'd bet they get a few calls about that ...

Jeff
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post #967 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Would be interested if Ken or anyone else finds a setting on this to be able to control the user menu "ClearEdge VM" choice when you hit the reset button. If there is one in SM somewhere, I couldn't seem to find it, so it reverts to factory defaults for the "clear edge VM" settings for different pic modes when you press reset button : defaults to "high" Clearedge VM setting for vivid, and standard(I think, might be remembering that one wrong), and "low" for Movie Pic mode, and "off" for "pro", which makes it less useful for me given my customized pic modes, and that I have "standard" for normal viewing.

FWIW, on the XBR800, it's 2170P-3/VM. 3=High, 2=Med, 1=Low, 0=Off. This and 2170P-4/UPIC - UTMP are strictly picture mode sensitive on the XBR800. The intensities of the Clear Edge VM settings (High, Medium, Low) can be individually customized for each picture mode as well with 2170P-3/VMH, VMM, and VML.

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post #968 of 2973 Old 02-09-2006, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by justsc View Post

This confuses me a bit. And maybe I've been misusing the terminology. I have been equating edge distortion with noisiness or harshness. I found on my set that SYSM=3 was the smoothest, least harsh setting. I find now that SYSM=2 or 1 seems too sharp or too harsh.

When I see you indicating that edge distortion is lowest with SYSM=1 at nominal sharpness, I sense that I've been misunderstanding the terminology at the least.

What I mean by edge distortion is ringing, overshoot, smearing, etc. Basically any anomolies that obfuscate the clarity of (principally vertical) edges. Such effects are fairly easy to spot on a pattern like this, when comparing the horizontal to vertical lines. They should be easy to see on fine text as well.

These are sort of worse case scenarios as Ken mentions. And I would not necessarily use something like this as the only gauge for how to adjust the various edge controls. Keeping such effects at least somewhat under control has been one of my goals though.

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post #969 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 12:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

It's not read only, though, I just confirmed this by Changing "UBRT" for "standard" pic mode from "32" to "46" and writing the change ... The white dot position changed for the brightness slider, and it stayed that way(at 46) after I powered the set off, and powered it back up outside of SM.

This evening I duplicated this process exactly on my 36XS955, and no-go. It won't remember the new setting. It does a WRITE, but nothing is really written, apparently. Rats!

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post #970 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 01:05 AM
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Hmm, the new value isn't retained by the SM, and pressing RESET on the remote with the User Menu/picture mode highlighted does nothing?

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post #971 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 09:20 AM
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I have since switched on back to SYSM=2. My ISF calibrator had set it to SYSM=3. As much as he knows, this i ultimiately think is the incorrect setting. I've switched back and forth on this subject, and it could be a matter of taste. But SYSM is probably the most major setting in the service menu, at least it has the most dramatic effect on how your image will look clarity/sharpness-wise.

I speak only from my experience with 480P dvd/component content, but i'm sure this applies elsewhere just the same.

SYSM=3 produces a VERY smooth image. It is an image so smooth, that raising sharpness really has no meaningful or useful effect on the picture. The image would look terrific if you were watching it in a store, but to actually sit down and watch a movie, or anything for a period longer the 27 seconds... not going to work very well. The picture, prior to adding edge-enhancment, is so smooth that it is VERY VERY difficult for the eyes to focus on. I don't know terminology too well, but i would assume undershooting is the correct word for what happens with the image. While the picture looks free of noise, and almost glossy, there is a severe lack of fine detail to focus on. I'm not saying the picture is blurry, it is just so soft that your eyes cannot latch on to any part of the image to focus on. The only way to fix this is to add some sort of artificial edge enhancement in the service menu - using mide, or perhaps a small degree of VM. While you will come out with a nice looking image from this adjustment (and one you can actually focus on), you will now notice there are bits of noise and artififacts that collect around certain images, almost like snow collecting on the sides of a tree. This is very much a tradeoff, you will get a smooth image, but an image with notceable edge-enhancement and ultimately unnatural.

SYSM=2.... This image is not QUITE as smooth or as computer screen-like as SYSM 3. But, fine detail is brought more cleanly and naturally to the surface. When you see a closeup of a person, you don't have to strain to see details, it comes straight out. The advantage with SYSM=2? You can remove every single one of those god-awful (in my opinion) edge enhancements in the service menu. Once you do all this, the only thing you need worry about is having the sharpness in the user menu at the right setting. By this point, you've created an image so natural and clear (and one that is still VERY easy to focus on) that the only noise you will get is from the sharpness control, or from any original artifacting from the actual source. This creates much more of a realistic image, as even film has a small degree of noise to it itself. IMO a movie image is not supposed to look overly smooth and processed, but ever-so slightly rough in certain places. This is what SYSM-2 creates. Your eyes will also note the positive difference that you are seeing an image far more natural and clear, without that extra edge "crap" blocking it. Again, all in my opinion.

(SYSM=1 is basically a lesser version of 2 (from what i've seen) i have no idea what it's designed for other than antenna tv. )

Basically i would rather strip as much as possible off an image to make it cleaner (SYSM-2) rather than add fake layers to the image to make it stand out more (SYSM-3). The good focus and convergence should be doing the core work to make a good image.

Does this all make sense?

By the way, in my short experience, i've noticed that all those MIDE, VM, LTLV etc. settings are no longer needed when SYSM is set on 2. Nor do i think they should be on the screen to begin with in any situation. I have every MIDE, VM, LV's, RSVP's etc set to zero (exception of PROV, LTMD, and SHFO) and have the best picture because of it.

Actually, Chad Bilheimer did my ISF. I'm sure you all have heard about him by now, as he is probably the best ISF calibrator out there, based on his testimonials, and based on how my set is looking. The reason he was the best, is because he cared so much about other people enjoying displays as much as he would, the level of perfection he went for was unreal. At any rate, he confirmed shutting all these above settings off. The only disagreement i had was that he set SYSM on 3 (for compnt dvd), with a MIDE setting to suppliment it. I ultimately just changed SYSM to 2, turned off the MIDE and couldn't be happier with his work, and how the display looks.
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post #972 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Hmm, the new value isn't retained by the SM, and pressing RESET on the remote with the User Menu/picture mode highlighted does nothing?

I deduced that nothing was retained because the positions of the "white dots" hadn't changed upon re-entry into the user menus. Pressing Reset means I have a bunch of work to do restoring my defaults to all four Picture modes. AFAIK, those dots are the positions specified by the user-default parameters, and they didn't move.

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post #973 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post

I've switched back and forth on this subject, and it could be a matter of taste. But SYSM is probably the most major setting in the service menu, at least it has the most dramatic effect on how your image will look clarity/sharpness-wise.

The experience you detailed in this post exactly parallels mine; we just use different words to express it -- that is, if one of us catches his own typos! I completely obscured the main point of my post #955 by leaving out the numeral "3." Here is a corrected restatement of the point:

"I have come to think of it in audio tone-control terms: SYSM=3 raises high frequencies, but as a *plateau,* much like the standard trebel control on a stereo. When cranked up, there is a response-curve ramp-up at some frequency, and then it levels off for higher frequencies. Thus, very fine detail is not boosted proportionately to fine detail but equal to it. SYSM=2, however, seems to me more like a tilting ramp upwards on the high-frequency response curve. When cranked above "neutral", medium detail is enhanced a bit, fine detail a lot more, and the finest textures most of all. So it has a very different "look" from SYSM=3. At a given SYSM=3 Sharpness boost setting, one could add those finest textures, I guess, by having a corresponding MID5 setting for MHYE. Trouble is, MHYE is *fixed* and SYSM is variable. So it would appear balanced only at one Sharpness setting -- not a very versatile use of Sharpness."

***********
I'm sure this is not technically accurate in implying how these effects are implemented in the hardware. After all, SYSM=2 has a time-domain shift so edge enhancement can be added *before* an edge. That's why the whole image shifts to the right when SYSM is changed to 2 from 3. (And that's a clue for the evaluation of other parameters as well. 2170P-3/SHF0, for example.)

If I were to infer from the evidence a major factor that distinguishes SYSM=2 from 3, it is that 3 seems to be merely a frequency boost in the high end of the video spectrum (and a plateau at that), and so it cannot add an effect *before* an edge occurs. SYSM=2 has no such limitation: The effect is derived from the signal in real-time, the unaltered signal is delayed slightly, and then the "effect" is added on top of the *delayed* original signal. Much more sophisticated, and it mimics true unsharp-masking in a digital photograph, where each pixel's brightness is derived, not only from its own original value, but from the value of pixels to the left, up, down, and right of itself. This is easy for a static image. Our TV are scanned, however, and "to the left" means "before" in time. Proposed bottom line: SYSM=2 mimics more accurately an actual *optical* correction and entrains the eye for focus much more successfully.

(Your recurring point about "capturing" the eye for focus without strain is extremely well-taken! This is likely the case for oversharpening really bad video and then viewing it a suitable distance so the eye/brain can work with the video on *its* biological terms.)

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post #974 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

FWIW, on the XBR800, it's 2170P-3/VM. 3=high, 2=med, 1=low, 0=off. This and 2170P-4/UPIC - UTMP are strictly picture mode sensitive on the XBR800. The intensities of the Clear Edge VM settings (High, Medium, Low) can be individually customized for each picture mode as well with 2170P-3/VMH, VMM, and VML.

On my XBR960, 2170P-3/VM is set at "0" for all pic modes, I use customized(lower than factory defaults) settings for VMH/VMM/VML per Ken tech's findings. None of These have any effect on the behavior that occurs with the "reset" button. The sliders move to my values I have set up for UPIC~UTMP when I press the "reset button", but the "Clear Edge VM" setting in the same "video settings" user menu still defaults to it's "factory" setting(either High, Medium, Low or off) for each pic mode when I press the button. Which especially doesn't work for me for my "customized" Vivid, Standard, and "movie" pic modes - In most cases, I use the "medium" ClearEdge VM setting for all of those. So, I'm looking for a setting which will allow me to control which Clear Edge VM setting each pic mode "defaults" to when I press the reset button when I'm in the "video" menu .. Just like setting UTMP=1 causes the "color temp" setting to use the "neutral" setting on my set. (0=warm, and 2=Cool).

[edited]On my set(34XBR960), looking at it more, I'm not sure what P2170P-3/VM does. I had thought it set the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, if so, I'd want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off. However, It only allows "values" of 0-3. I'd thought, although it would make more sense for "off" just to mean "off" and not need any sort of "value" involved or SM control for it --- I'd thought if it were for an "off" setting, it might just allow 0-3 to only allow for the most "subtle" of SVM intesities if it were to correspond to the "off" menu choice. However, the "0-15" settings that are available for all all the others(VMH/VMM/VML), as well as the servicecode listing defaults(which match for pic mode the "high/low/off" defaults I'm getting per pic mode per the labels in user menu "clearedge VM choices) would lead one to assume it should "work" as it does for ADU's XBR800, although that is not what I'm getting according to the "low/Medium/High" "labels" in the user menu it's defaulting to regardless of how I have the 2170P-3/VM value set. [end edit]
[end edit]

If I weren't utilizing VM and VMH/VMM/VML(for high, medium, low settings) I suppose I could set those all at "zero" and then VM would be "off" no matter what the factory "reset" value for the "clearedge VM" user menu choice" for any pic mode actually is. But, I am using them, the VMM and VML settings specifically, I don't use VMH(High), except when testing+experimenting with the 2170P-3 VM "shaping" paramenters(VMCR~VMDL)

BTW, in case anyone is interested, I didn't throughly check this, but I don't think the "advanced" video menu settings (where you choose, or customize different DRC "pallete's" or chose a different "color axis" (for different settings for RYR~GYB/etc), are effected by the "reset" button.

Jeff
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post #975 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I deduced that nothing was retained because the positions of the "white dots" hadn't changed upon re-entry into the user menus. Pressing Reset means I have a bunch of work to do restoring my defaults to all four Picture modes. AFAIK, those dots are the positions specified by the user-default parameters, and they didn't move.

Interesting, I would have thought it would probably work on the XS955, as it is working on XBR960. Allways good to find out about the little differences we experience with different set models.

Note that it didn't change the slider settings for different pic modes, just the one I was using at the time I pressed "reset". I didn't check to see if with "mode memory=off" if it was the case "input specific" values were still being stored(as is the case with Mode memory=on) - one wouldn't think so, but I guess you never know..

As I mentioned to ADU, however, I can't find a setting to "control" what happens with the "clearedgeVM" user menu setting when you press "reset" button. It's still defaulting to "high" Clearedge VM user menu choice for example for "vivid" if I press "reset" when in Vivid pic mode+video settings menu. Which makes this feature much less useful for me, as I'd have to change "clearedge" VM to my preferred value for any given pic mode everytime I hit "reset" button.

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post #976 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

The experience you detailed in this post exactly parallels mine;

Same here.

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You can remove every single one of those god-awful (in my opinion) edge enhancements in the service menu.

You can, but where I differ a bit with you on this is - at least at this point, that at least in my case I find a bit of "fine tuning" and mininal enhancements in MID5 useful(and fine tuning those for different sources), per Ken Tech's findings on this per post #707, as well as "subtely(spelling+if that's a word)" set up VM settings useful, even with SYSM=2.

Perhaps however differences in our set models(such as SFP or no) might account for why some of us may be be experiencing something a little different in this regard.

I do agree with what you've said about the 2170P-3 edge enhancement settings - at least from what I've seen so far. Although, If I wasn't using MID, and I was using SYSM=3, I'd have a use for them, as I'd have to use them to some degree.


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(SYSM=1 is basically a lesser version of 2 (from what i've seen) i have no idea what it's designed for other than antenna tv. )

OTA (antenna) looks awfully good to me with SYSM=2 or 3 (given you've "equalized" and fine tuned other relevant settings accordingly) vs. SYSM=1 .... That's including NTSC (analog) OTA, and the relevant 2103-1/3d-comb settings/etc ....

I do use an outdoor, high gain directional antenna setup, which is in a sense "optimized" for excellent analog NTSC reception(which is an important factor when it comes to NTSC analog PQ) - which luckily also turns out to also work great for OTA ATSC(digital TV/HD/etc) reception.

I've personally never found a use for SYSM=0 or 1, except when experimenting/testing/etc. Perhaps however things would be different If I was using an earlier model set, or if I were(don't know at this point if you can even set that up on the newer sets, or what the "effects" would be) using the "PT" for 1080i as ADU is.

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While the picture looks free of noise, and almost glossy, there is a severe lack of fine detail to focus on.

I also think this is an especially excellent description of what I've also experienced with SYSM=3 -- "Almost Glossy" is exactly what I've thought of it as well. In my case, SYSM=3 especially does not work well for 480p DVD.

As (hopefully) should be apparent from my post concerning experiments with the 2170P-3 edge controls per ADU's excellent info --- What I thought did seem odd was that in order to get SYSM=3 to "somewhat" work for 480p DVD, I had to add all sorts of enhancement from either MID5, or 2170P-3 - something which really isn't the case for SYSM=3 for other sources/scan rates/etc = and, what does work best for SYSM=3 and 480p DVD is a "balance" from both 2170-P3 and MID5 EE controls ... However, with SYSM-2, I don't really have to do anything "different" for 480p DVD than I am for 720p HD to achieve excellent resluts -- And all that involves really, is minimal enhancement from MID5.

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SYSM=2.... This image is not QUITE as smooth or as computer screen-like as SYSM 3. But, fine detail is brought more cleanly and naturally to the surface.

I've noticed the same thing here.

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Actually, Chad Bilheimer did my ISF. I'm sure you all have heard about him by now

From all accounts I've heard, Chad is very dedicated and seems to do a wonderful job. I also recall enjoying, and reading many of his posts on another forum several years ago.

I've seen him post on AVS a few times, perhaps If he ever gets the oppurtunity to do so, I'd certianly very much enjoy hearing his thoughts here concerning the signal processing of these Sony DV CRT's we're discussing, as well as the "image processing"/ "EE" settings/etc. available in SM which we are working with.

Jeff
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post #977 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 01:15 PM
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I deduced that nothing was retained because the positions of the "white dots" hadn't changed upon re-entry into the user menus. Pressing Reset means I have a bunch of work to do restoring my defaults to all four Picture modes. AFAIK, those dots are the positions specified by the user-default parameters, and they didn't move.

Check the SM to see if the new values you entered for UPIC - UTMP are still intact. If they are, then the new slider config may be "in effect". You may not see it take effect though until pressing the RESET button on the remote (while highlighting that Picture mode in the User Menu). That's the way it works on the XBR800 anyway.

All the RESET button does on the XBR800 is snap the sliders/parameters in the User Menu to the positions defined in the SM by 2170P-4/UPIC - UTMP (and 2170P-3/VM for Clear Edge VM) for the currently selected Picture mode. That seems to be the sole purpose for these features on the XBR800.

If you have the MODE MEMORY feature on your TV and have spent alot of time tweaking the User Menu/Picture modes differently for each separate input, then I can understand why you might not want to use the RESET feature. But I use this all the time on the XBR800 to reset the sliders in Pro mode back to their default positions (as I've configured them to work in the SM.)
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that is, if one us catches his own typos! I completely obscured the main point of my post #955 by leaving out...

Been there, and done that too.

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post #978 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 01:28 PM
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Nitewatchman,

You might wanna check what 2170P-3/VM does on your TV again. FWIW, on the XBR800, 2170P-3/VM seems to behave exactly the way you're wantin it to (per Post #971 above). Ie, it controls which setting Clear Edge VM defaults to (either High [3], Medium [2], Low [1] or Off [0]) for each Picture mode when you press the RESET button on the remote.

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post #979 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Might wanna check that again. FWIW, on the XBR800, 2170P-3/VM seems to behave exactly the way you're wanting it to (and the way described in Post #971 above). Ie, it controls which setting Clear Edge VM defaults to for each Picture mode when you press the RESET button on the remote (either High [3], Medium [2], Low [1] or Off [0]).

I double checked it before posting my last post on this , and just checked it a third time.

P2170-3/VM stays at "0" If I press "reset" button on the remote while in "vivid" mode+in user menu "video settings" section, but the user "video" menu "clearedge" choice for "vivid" reverts to factory default choice of "high" Clearedge VM setting(thus it uses the P2170-3 VMH setting in this case). Note I pressed the reset button "outside" of SM, and entered SM afterwards to check the P2170-3/VM value(as I didn't "look up" what might happen hitting "reset" button while in SM, so didn't want to try that) - 2170P-3/VM still at 0, Clearedge VM user menu still at "high" for "vivid" pic mode.

If it was using the 2170P-3/VM setting and is working as it does on your set, then it should be defaulting to "clearedge:"off" choice in user menu when i hit "reset" for "vivid" pic mode given the P2170-3/VM=0 value for "vivid" pic mode on my set, correct? It is not doing that. It is "defaulting" to "High" user menu clearedge choice.

It's no big deal for me really. But, wish it would work, as Ken noted it would be especially useful to quickly+easily return to my normal "preferred" values for the sliders after making any slight adjustments to sliders to account for different program material/etc ... While it works for the sliders and UTMP "color temp" setting, It's just not as "convienient" or very useful if I'd have to keep changing back the Clear edge VM setting "manually" every time I'd use the reset button.

After "UTMP" in the "QM" section, the next control was "CVSB", but I don't think it has anything to do with the Clearedge setting, as it's value was "0" in all cases for all pic modes, whearas, with the reset button it's defaulting to Clearedge : "high"(Vivid or standard), "low"(Movie) or "off"(pro) depending upon Pic mode.

Thanks for your input+thoughts on this, though.

Update : just to check it a 4th time, In a little different way, I changed 2170P-3/VM to "1" for "vivid" mode. As I expected, Clearedge VM user menu setting still defaulted to "HIGH" when I went out of SM, and into user menu "video" settings and used the reset button(I'd set it "manually" to "medium" first, just in case, and so I could "see" it change).

Went back into SM, and P2170-3/VM was still set at "1" just as I had changed it(I then changed it back to "0" of course). Note that just to keep it a completely "controlled" experiment(although I don't think P2170-3/VM stores "input specific" values, only "pic mode" specific values), I "stayed" with the same input/source throughout the experiment, without switching to other inputs/sources/etc at any time.

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post #980 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

If you have the MODE MEMORY feature on your TV and have spent alot of time tweaking the User Menu/Picture modes differently for each separate input, then I can understand why you might not want to use the RESET feature.

If Mode memory is on on my XBR960, using the reset button only effects the Pic mode and Only the input you are using at the time, not other inputs or pic modes(including pic modes for that single "input" your using at the time). With Mode memory On, you do have to configure your "UPIC~UTMP" values for EACH input, and EACH picture mode. Otherwise, the inputs you "don't" configure, will still have the factory defaults for the "little dots".

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You won't see it take effect though until pressing the RESET button on the remote (while highlighting that particular Picture mode in the User Menu). That's the way it works on the XBR800 anyway.

Interesting. The "little dots" did move to reflect my new UPIC~USHP values on my XBR960 without me needing to hit the "reset" button first(of course, that' no actual "effect" to the picture). As I noted in earlier post, the dots didn't change In User Menu WHILE I made the change, but, after exiting User menu, and bringing it back up (the "video settings" portion of the menu), my new "dot" posistions were indicated instead of the previous factory settings.

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post #981 of 2973 Old 02-10-2006, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Might wanna check this again. FWIW, on the XBR800, 2170P-3/VM seems to behave exactly the way you're wantin it to

I do see what you are getting at here, and what you are saying certianly seems to make sense, as my updates/info as mentioned below should also hopefully also point out ....

However, the "behavior" I'm actually getting with this is exactly as I've described, and I would agree THAT doesn't "make sense" but, nevertheless that is what is happening ...

I realize I had left an important word out when I said :

Quote:
On my set(34XBR960) The P2170P-3/VM setting sets the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, I of course want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off.

I thought I had written(important missing item in Bold) :

Quote:
On my set(34XBR960) I think The P2170P-3/VM setting sets the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, I of course want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off.

But, now I'm not so sure about that either, and have edited this section of my above corresponding post to instead read :

Quote:
[edited]On my set(34XBR960), looking at it more, I'm not sure what P2170P-3/VM does. I had thought it set the "intensity" of SVM when you choose the "cleardedge = Off" choice in user menu, if so, I'd want that one at "0" so it is actually "off" when I choose Off. However, It only allows "values" of 0-3. I'd thought, although it would make more sense for "off" just to mean "off" and not need any sort of "value" involved or SM control for it --- I'd thought if it were for an "off" setting, it might just allow 0-3 to only allow for the most "subtle" of SVM intesities if it were to correspond to the "off" menu choice. However, the "0-15" settings that are available for all all the others(VMH/VMM/VML), as well as the servicecode listing defaults(which match for pic mode the "high/low/off" defaults I'm getting per pic mode per the labels in user menu "clearedge VM choices) would lead one to assume it should "work" as it does for ADU's XBR800, although that is not what I'm getting according to the "low/Medium/High" "labels" in the user menu it's defaulting to regardless of how I have the 2170P-3/VM value set. [end edit]

I guess what I'll have to do when I get some time is temporarily change the VML/VMM/VMH settings to higher values(and maybe the 2170P3 VM Shaping values as well), so I can easily, and quickly "spot" the VM or differing intesities(my current settings are really to subtle to easily spot this, except (to a very SMALL extent) for the very slight differences seen when "moving" through the different Clearedge VM User menu choices(low/medium/high).

As, maybe it is possible 2170P3/VM could be "working" on my set as it is on yours,EXCEPT that the labels for the "defaults" when using "reset' for "high/Medium/Low" are being shown even if a actual "different' value is being used .... I don't know though -- I think I can tell the difference between my VMH (high) setting from the "off" setting, and it certianly doesn't seem to be "off" when it defaults to saying "high" for "vivid" mode even though "vivid" mode 2170P-3/VM value is "0".

Or, (and this is what I suspect) maybe 2170P3/VM is really doing nothing at all on my set, and is a "leftover" in the SM from earlier models that is not being implemented properly, and instead, the High/medium/low VM defaults for the different pic modes for the "reset" button are "hard coded" somewhere, or available somewhere else in SM(although I can't find it). Perhaps, Ken is also getting the same thing on his set, but instead with the "sliders" and little dots and "reset" button and QM UPIC~UTMP.

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post #982 of 2973 Old 02-11-2006, 01:30 AM
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I see what yer sayin now. Sounds like the MODE MEMORY feature is making things a bit more complicated on the XBR960. If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't bother trying to determine if the TV's using a different level of Clear Edge VM than the one shown in the User menu. That wouldn't make much sense. More than likely, it's gonna use whatever's listed. And if the parameter isn't changing to the new VM setting when you press the RESET button, then it sounds as if there may indeed be another switch or parameter involved somewhere else.

Perhaps the 2170P-3/VM only works when MODE MEMORY is OFF, and there's another parameter involved when MODE MEMORY is ON? Any idea how many different options the CVSB parameter contains (e.g. 0-3, or 0-4)?

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post #983 of 2973 Old 02-11-2006, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't bother trying to determine if the TV's using a different level of Clear Edge VM than the one shown in the User menu. That wouldn't make much sense. More than likely, it's gonna use whatever's listed.

Yeah, I agree, I'm not going to mess with that. Was just trying to think of all the possibilities that might explain what's going on, no matter how unlikely.

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Perhaps the 2170P-3/VM only works when MODE MEMORY is OFF, and there's another parameter involved when MODE MEMORY is ON?

2170P-3/VM doesn't work for this on my set with "mode memory" off, either. I tried it earlier, and just doublechecked it.

Another useful thing I did find out when doing this however is that when I turn "mode memory" off, and then back on, I don't lose any "mode memory On" input specific(or pic mode specific) user menu settings.

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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Any idea how many different options the CVSB parameter contains (e.g. 0-3, or 0-4)?

I don't know, I didn't check it as I don't know what it does. CVSB is showing a "0" value for all pic modes+inputs that I checked, so wouldn't think that would be reflective of the different user menu clearedge "defaults" for the different pic modes when the reset button is used(High for Vivid, Low for Movie/etc).

The Section of the SM CVSB(and UPIC~UTMP for that matter) is in is the "QM" section, which is an undocumented section at least it's not shown in the servicecode listing from Service manual. There is also a CVSB "entry" in the undocumenteed "QT" section of the service menu, it's also at "0" everywhere I checked.

----------


Which reminds me --- On another note -- an update on the "HDPT" PM I sent you and Ken the other day. Among other things, if you missed it, In the PM, it explains how I followed the info on this for older sets on other threads, and read all the approrpiate info in the "vertical bar" thread/etc.

Anyway -- I played around with HDPT=0 a little more in one pic mode last night. HDPT has Pic mode specific setting on my set - for instance, you can have it at "0" for vivid and "1" for Standard. With 1080i sources(which is all HDPT effects I believe), The screen going "scrambled" on my set(like you've lost V Sync or H Sync, and somewhat similar, in a sense to what you may get in some occasions if the 2171CXA "FIXS" paramenter isn't correctly set)occurs ONLY if you bring up the user "display" function, and only does that when your in SM - although, even outside SM, the user menus, channel banners/etc, are still "garbled" and not correctly displayed. Otherwise, it seemed to "work" to "by-pass MID".

I didn't find any "good" use for HDPT=0 it however. Except involving "differences" involved with values for the "PT"(passthrough) columns for some controls which differ -- (such as YOSW value, the 1080i PT specific CROP/CBOP(interestingly enough, CROP/CBOP AND YOF~CROF all are offsets that effect the "1080i PT" signal, as well as PT column CBGN~YGN/etc) from the "component" or 'ATSC" specific columns, I couldn't find any differences using HDPT=0 concerning the picture quality of 1080i sources as compared to using HDPT=1 and using all Zeroes in the MID5 Column.

Or, If there were any differences in "image quality"/etc, I couldn't "see" them. I also noticed, with "HDPT" at "0" there was often a "quick moving", rather wide Vertical bar moving across the screen at times(only on 1080i sources of course). Also note that MID1/"DPSW" "blank screen" on my KD34XBR960 if set to "1", and on this set "0" is the "normal" setting for it. If I recall my reading about older sets correctly, it's the other way around.

**disclaimer** At this point, I do not endorse, or recommend that anyone, at least with one of these newer Sony sets "check out" MID-by pass and the "HDPT" setting! As, (just based on my short experiments), #1). I don't think we know "enough" about what it does on these newer sets, it might not be 100% "safe", #2) I don't see that its "MID by pass" does anything "useful", and you can use all Zeros in a MID5 column+accomplish the same thing, at least that seems to be the case given my short experience with it, and from what I can tell. I could be wrong, of course. #3). Also, when you're in SM at least, you might find the screen becoming "all garbled" if you set it to "0" making the Service Menu info "unreadable", therefore you'll be in a real fix if you don't know a way "out" of it. #4). At least on my set, when using HDPT=0, the User menus and channel displays/banners/etc. do not display properly.

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post #984 of 2973 Old 02-11-2006, 12:35 PM
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I got your PM on the above. And apologize for not getting back to you on that yet. Just a little backlogged at the moment.

A WARNING: The HDPT parameter that you refer to above has the potential to damage Sony TVs if it's not properly implemented by an authorized technician, especially on models which lack certain hardware.

No foolin or kiddin around. Tampering with this setting has the potential to damage your TV. That's why I have been reluctant to get much into it outside of certain threads which take the time to go into the subject in greater depth, such as the 1080i scrolling bar thread and the Sony signal processing thread. If you want to know more about it, I would strongly advise reading both these threads in their entirety to get a better idea of the risks/requirements/headaches involved with this parameter. Please also see my cautionary remarks to Ken about it in Post #29 and Post #31 of another thread.

For the vast majority of users (especially owners of newer models with better processing), I don't think messing with it would be worth the associated risks and headaches that it may involve.

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post #985 of 2973 Old 02-11-2006, 03:09 PM
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No foolin or kiddin around. Tampering with this setting has the potential to damage your TV.
.

Absolutely, and I can't stress enough that you HAVE to know what you are doing before you MESS WITH ANY SM control. See my Disclaimer in last post as well.

I read the info in the threads you mention in depth, as well as closely studied the "signal flow" diagrams. Nevertheless, with the lack of info available on it for the newer sony sets, without anyone trying it on these newer sets, or posting about it+without a "sony" engineer "in the know" I can call, I certianly STILL took a bit of a "risk" with it --- a risk I was very aware of the possible consequeses involved , although I took every step possible to ensure it was a "carefully" mitagated risk, as I knew I had a quick "way out" ...

Believe it or not, I am quite knowledgable about Electronics hardware, and actually DO know a little about what I'm doing when it comes to these issues and inner workings of TV's and service menus and such. I've been doing this sort of thing for 30 years now, including working on the INSIDE of sets .....

Update:

Here's another "cautionary" tale involving a certian model of set+SM I recall from the late early mid 90's. This particluar set's Service Menu happend to have "VFREQ"(sets vertical scanning frequency) as it's FIRST SM item. It was also the case that, the "code" one needed to enter on the remote(or front panel set controls) was such that I believe it was very possible for a user to "accidently" enter SM without knowing it, and, perhaps thinking they were turning the vol down or switching channel(don't remember which), they could EASILY lower the VFREQ setting(which "stuck" immediately, you didn't have to do anything to "write" the new value) without knowing it - which would not only make it impossible to "see anything" on the screen, it would also cause the set to turn off after a few seconds. And the set would NOT work again, unless the EEPROM was reprogrammed or the EEPROM chip with the firmware on it was replaced, or perhaps a VARIAC was used to step down the A/C current to where you could enter the SM without the set turning off in a few seconds, and be able to "see" the value on the screen, and change it back to correct value.

: end update

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For the vast majority of users (especially owners of newer models with better processing), I don't think messing with it would be worth the associated risks and headaches that it involves.

From what I saw from it, I could be wrong but I don't think anyone will really gain anything from it on these newer sets.

Which Is the important reason WHY I thought I'd go ahead a post a little about it on this thread, as I thought I'd pass along that I can see no benefit whatsoever from using it with newer sets. THEREFORE, I don't think there IS any reason for anyone else with the newer sets to Mess with it. .

Maybe that wasn't a good enough reason, however. If so, and if necessary, and if asked I will delete my comments on this matter.

At first, thought I'd just send you+Ken a PM about it given your recent conversation on that other thread, but thought the info(that info being : From what I can tell there's no REASON whatsoever to try it with these new sets) might be useful for folks. On my set anyway, again, the short time I did check it -- it didn't accomplish anything "beneficial" for the "picture" over just setting all "zeros" for MID5 Column -- and I did look fairly "closely" at that.

In other words, my advice would be, don't mess with it.

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post #986 of 2973 Old 02-11-2006, 04:30 PM
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Fair enough. I'm glad if you approached it with the gravity and diligence that I believe it warrants (and will keep my fingers crossed that no unpleasant consequences develop down the line), and think you make a very good case for simply leaving it alone. Not sure there's anything else I can add, except to reinforce my previous warnings that unrecoverable damage to your investment could result from messing with this.

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post #987 of 2973 Old 02-11-2006, 05:47 PM
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think you make a very good case for simply leaving it alone.

I'm glad, then I was able to get my point across on this(wasn't sure if it would come across well enough), and I appreciate your "warning" posts/comments which I think serve to help to "back that up".

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(and will keep my fingers crossed that there are no unpleasant consequences down the line) ......... except to reinforce my previous warnings that unrecoverable damage to your investment could result from messing with this.

Appreciate the thought -- Won't go into the "details", but, FWIW in my specific case, you don't have to be concerned about this where MY set and "circumstances", specifically, are concerned ....

And again, in my case, I was well aware of the risks and possible consequences involved, and again, I would also advise others NOT to mess with it .... especially as my observations seem to indicate there is absolutely NO reason to with these newer sets ....

Update: By the way - wanted to also mention I found the posts from Montreal, yourself, and Jingle1 posted on the other threads especially most useful to me on this matter ... Here are links to just a few of the posts I found especially useful when "stewing' about it, and thinking about what the possible differences with the newer sets/etc might be :

Vertical Bar Thread, post 754

Vertical Bar Thread, Post 617

Vertical Bar Thread, Post 385

Vertical Bar Thread, Post 390

Vertical Bar thread, Post 398

Vertical Bar thread, Post 400

Vertical Bar thread, Post 455

archived Signal processing thread, post 37

archived Signal processing thread, post 87

archived Signal processing thread, post 129

OOps! Looks like I missed the very last page of this one -- looks like someone HAS tried it before on the 960 - see this post and ADU's responses :

arcived Signal processing thread, post 164

And so on ...

:end update

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post #988 of 2973 Old 02-12-2006, 11:53 PM
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OOps! Looks like I missed the very last page of this one -- looks like someone HAS tried it before on the 960 - see this post and ADU's responses :

archived Signal processing thread, post 164

I'd forgotten about that as well. Most of the posts there are over 2 years old though... (Something to keep in mind when reading some of my older and potentially dubious advice there.)

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post #989 of 2973 Old 02-13-2006, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bigkev4123 View Post

I was wondering if any of you guys could help me out with something. i have a kd30xs955, and i was messing around with the picture settings, like mpin, pin, ucp, lcp,ppha, lang, vang, vbow, lbow, and for some reason the lines are a little off and I cant seem to get them right. Is there any way I could reset them to the original numbers, or if someone could give me their numbers and I could go from there. I wrote all the original numbers down but i must have threw them away cleaning. up. so any help would be greatly appreciated.


please someone help me.

kyle

kyle,

First, let me apologize for the delay in getting back to you, but I wanted to check a couple other possibilities out before replying on this, in case there might be some easier way to accomplish what you needed.

Regrettably it looks like you may be out of luck in terms of getting your original settings back for some of these parameters. I tried a few different things, but none of them restored the SM settings on my TV to the way they were set when it was new. It looks as if when you write new settings in the SM for parameters like the ones above, any of the factory adjustments to those parameters are probably permanently written over, and there's no way to retrieve them. If you've lost your original notes, then they're likely gone for good.

Not sure if this would work, but you might try posting a request for other 30XS955 users to list their values for the particular parameters in question. Some of these parameters are likely to vary (perhaps quite a bit) from TV to TV, but it might help to narrow some of them down.

Not that this will be of much help, but FWIW, here are the defaults listed for the 34XBR800, and the actual values from my particular TV.

Code:

            34XBR800
PARAMETER    DEFAULT    MY TV

MPIN (WideZoom) 10        11
MPIN (Others)    8         8

PIN (WideZoom)  40        25
PIN (Others)    31        21

UCP (WideZoom)  31        36
UCP (Others)    35        37

LCP (WideZoom)  31        36
LCP (Others)    35        39

PPHA (WideZoom) 20        20
PPHA (Others)   20        21

VANG            31        38

LANG            31        18

VBOW            31        26

LBOW            31        57


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post #990 of 2973 Old 02-13-2006, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by KrammuelSTEog View Post

I would first like to say that this forum for TV setup is the BEST.
Also, I have done this on the 34XBR800 and knowing that settings are different, I have had great success in adjusting mine pretty close to my satisfaction.
But, I do have a problem now.........I had moved recently and the TV had reset somewhat to a earlier state??? Is this something that certain settings revert back to factory or was it a screwup with the save (I know I had saved my settings, because it was fine for about 2 month before it was moved and power had gone out in that time and didn't affect it).
Any quick comments would be appreciated. TY

KrammuelSTEog,

FWIW, I tried unplugging my 34XBR800 for a few days, and basically nothing happened. As far as I could tell, all the settings in the SM remained intact. Whether anything different might happen if it was left unplugged longer, I can't really say.

When you started the TV the first time after moving though, did the channel scan requestor come up? If so, then perhaps the User menus simply reset.

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