Note: 2/18/06 2:15am updates : updated with more accurate info, as #1). I didn't copy some of my "scribbled" notes very well, and #2). after another session with the set tonight, made some minor changes/improvements with various settings.
Originally Posted by KenTech
I will be very interested in any feedback.
Hope you don't mind a bit of it from me here, since we've also been talking about these via PM. Thought I should mention that, as otherwise the "timing" of this post might seem odd to folks, given it's only been a couple hours since your post.
DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO
I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.
(There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don't have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)
Note that relevant 2103-2 SHAP~PREO and SSMD settings are applicable for the Twin-view RIGHT window only on my XBR960, and if I recall correctly perhaps the very tiny "index" feature "windows" as well. The same is true for 2103-2 SCON/SHUE/SCOL. The left twinview window, and the "primary" video in "index" feature is controlled by the 2103-1 settings.
There are seperate settings available in 2103-2 for "RF", and "CV-YC" for these settings, and, sources using the "RF" or CV-YC inputs are the only inputs you can use with the right twinview window, which is allways a "4x3" window as well. I can't use Internal ATSC/HD receiver, or DVD via V5/V6 in Right window for instance, only the left window, which can be used for any source, and which will be a 16x9 window for 16x9 sources, ATSC, or even NTSC 16x9 video from widescreen, so called "anamorphic" DVD's, and it will be a 4x3 window for 4x3 source signals.
Haven't spent a lot of time with this and the "right" Twinview window, but I am currently using 2103-2/SHFO=3, PRE0=1, and SSMD=1 for both RF+CV/YC Twinview Right window. Note that I have not completely "settled" on what I'm going to use for 2103-1/2103-2 "SSMD" for various sources yet.
Although I like 2301-1 SHAP=1 for all sources that use "DRC" best, and don't think at this point I would want to use anything higher than that elsewhere for 2103=1 - Higher values for 2103-2/SHAP do seem useful for Twinview's right window in my case. Note that a "seperate" sharpness slider setting, or AFAIK
, another other "sharpness" offset is not available specifically for the right twinview window. So, I currently have 2103-2/SHAP=4 for CV/YC, SHAP=5 for RF.
Given the same source signal used for both windows+given the applicable settings that involve the left window(2103-1 SHAP~PREO for instance), so far, and given my current settings that effect the left window, this is the closest I've gotten to "matching sharpness" of the right window with the left -- For instance --- Lower SHAP values in 2103-2 result in the right window being "blurrier" than the left.
I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I'm leaning toward 3.
At this point, FWIW, I'm preferring SHFO=3 for everything effected by these settings -- It's not as noticable as 480i DVD via component, and it is hard to say -- but at times I think I am also noticing improved detail with it vs. SHFO=2 - especially from very "clean" OTA NTSC sources, and perhaps via SD Satellite receiver or via S-video as well.
#16-SSMD...... In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. In combination with SHF0, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges. I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly).
I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD's 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.
While I seem to be getting, and noticing the exact same things as you are with 2103-1/SHAP~PREO, ---- nevertheless, in some cases I seem to be getting something a little different with settings for SSMD and the "Y" symmetry at the narrow end of the wedges in the AVIA TVL 200 resolution pattern, and in just one case concerning overshoot.
For instance, as one example -- 480i DVD via V5/V6(Zenith DVD2381 player :
The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD:
1-3-1-3: Very slight overshoot and very slight ringing, but excellent clarity on all sources. Perfect phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now.
This paragraph updated with accurate info on "overshoot", as I'd copied it incorrectly from my scribbled notes, orginally : In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, albeit it's a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".
1-3-1-1 results in a very symmetrical "Y", but noticablely more overshoot, and perhaps even a tad bit of ghosting(but WAY to right of some edges) occuring for some reason. However(and I'm not sure I "trust this" much, hooking DVD player up via S-Video, 1-3-1-1 produces minimal ringing or overshoot, and a VERY symmetrical "Y" at the end of the wedges.
Note that also (480i using V5), 1-3-1-0 allows one to see "lines" in the lower right circle labeled "6.75MHZ", regardless of DRC setting used(Interlaced/progressive or cinemotion). those lines, for instance turn into "noise" with 1-3-1-1. Update: checking this again(and writing it down this time!) 1-3-1-3 also turns out to be one of the few "combinations" of settings with mostly "lines" and little noise in the lower right circle, although still more noise than 1-3-1-0.
Thought maybe the differences we are getting on this perhaps could involve output of DVD player(and maybe that has something to do with it) -- However, Also noticed that with 1-3-1-3, (for lack of a better way to describe it), I get sort of a "wavy" look to text in a small ID bug from 480i ATSC SD source via internal tuner, which is "fixed" with 1-3-1-0. 1-3-1-1 fixes it too, but with unacceptable ringing present.
When I get a chance, I'll try hooking up a different, JVC(it's 480i only, but believe it does use a Genesis/Farojuda chip) DVD player I have here and see what I get on these with it.
Update: Ok, tried the other player -- It's a JVC XV-N3SL - I'd used it before to see how various color settings "matched" for 2 different DVD players(and saw no differences), but, "sharpness"/EE wise -- I forgot how ugly this thing looks with the XBR960 -- WOW! Talk about oversharpening ... The player itself has a "picture control" window with settings such as variable "sharpness"(seems I can have "oversharpening" or "undersharpening" anyway) settings, and suffice it to say, nothing I do with this thing, or 2103-1 SHAP~PREO or SSMD will, for instance let me see anything like a "Y", symmetrical or not at the narrow end of the "vertical" TVL200 wedges ... What I think is interesting however, is :
#1). On another set (Toshiba 34HF84 - which uses Genesis/Farojuda Gm6010 IC - which I think is probably the main ingredient in it's scaling/deinterlacing/etc) I use it with, this JVC DVD player actually works quite nicely with it. Interestingly enough, my Zenith DVD player also works fairly nicely with the Toshiba - at 480i or 480p, but unlike with the XBR, I like 480i from the Zenith a little better with it ....
#2). Presumably, involving either one or both of the following : A). The difference in output between one DVD player and another, even with both DVD players outputting 480i, and/or b). The difference in how XBR960 is handling the "different" outputs from 2 different model DVD players.
If nothing else, the much "wider" differences I'm seeing from 480i output from these two different models of DVD players certianly has me less concerned about the differences from Ken's results I'm seeing concerning "symmetrical Y's" and SSMD values, or various combinations of SSMD+SHFO settings.
I think this also may illustrate that it also might be wise for folks to be careful about applying "calibration" settings to other inputs/sources which you "find" with your DVD player .... In my case, I'm certianly thankful for the internal "QM" section of SM test patterns for ATSC 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i !
1-2-1-3 and 1-2-1-2: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very clean. Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray Y slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it.
I'm getting the same thing as you are with the "Y" on this one, and 1-2-1-2 isn't much different. However, I'm getting more ringing and overshoot with 1-2-1-3 or 1-2-1-2 than I am with 1-2-1-1, which also makes for a very symmetrical "Y".
Although I'd spent quite a bit of time with 1-2-1-0 and generally liked it, I haven't spent much time with programming material trying out SHAP~PREO 1-2-1 with SSMD=3 yet.
Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ? (thanks ahead of time)
For "completeness" note that I am I'm restarting TV after 15 minutes before looking at these. And, I am using the image processing settings(2170P-3/3d-comb where applicable/etc) as recommended in your Post 707 updates. Exceptions perhaps being :
#1). Update: I did have 480i V5/V6 set to use MIDE column 57"(I have MID5 columns set up as described in your PDF attachement to Post 707), but tonight I decided #60 is better for 480i via component from my DVD player. If we are using "different" MID5 columns, don't think it really seems to effect what I'm getting with the "Y"'s in the TVL-200 wedges.
#2). I'm currently mostly using VM at "Low" or "medium" in user menu, and VML=2 or 4", with VMCR~VMDL(mostly) at 0-3-0-6. Although I expect it probably does not effect this, do note that I should have checked to see if the VM settings had any effect on this, and probably should have turned VM to "off" before looking at the test patterns, but in this case I did not.