THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 35 - AVS Forum
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post #1021 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 10:03 AM
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I do have MID3 in my service menu, but its a whole bunch of different options than the service menu PDF..I have the exact same values as the guy in this post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post6876424

I can tweak the bottom image to where its fully there, but the bottom 1-3% is very skewed to the left.

Do you know about my 480p problem?
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post #1022 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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The Neglected CXA-2103 Image Filters and Their Significant Effects on Image Quality

I have personally, and in print, glossed over these parameters so far. My mistake, but certainly in accord with the philosophy in my signature slogan!

There are five parameters in service-mode's 2103-1 group that very significantly alter the video image for (at least) all 480i sources. 480p, 1080i, and 720p sources do appear to pass through this chip, and so they're not affected. But SD broadcast from air or analog cable, as well as DVD thru component at 480i, certainly are. Therefore, these parameters have to be included in the suite of settings that determine image quality for these video sources. DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO. (Can't comment on 480p thru component.) Sorry I haven't played these settings up enough in my charts. (There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don't have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)

The five parameters are #6-SHAP, #7-SHF0, #8-PREO, #16-SSMD, and #19-PPHA. The final two are subtle *timing* parameters that can significantly affect overshoot and ringing. Numerous experiments and some Sony documents have led me to the following tentative descriptions:

#6-SHAP is a sharpness/edge enhancer with a very coarse effect. (By coarse, I don't mean bad.) The older XBR2 charts indicate that zero effect is in the middle of the range (probably 7), but it's easy to see from simple experiments that zero effect = 0 in our DA-4-based sets. This edge enhancement doesn't ring, but it's very strong. I found that, in my case, only 1 notch of SHAP filled in a dip in the mid-video frequencies (coarse detail) but that anything more added an unpleasant, false edginess, making video look, well, like TV. On NTSC broadcast, such as well-produced local news, a SHAP of only 1 added an almost 3D realism that helped my eyes focus on the image. I checked the effect with much finer sources from DVD, and I like the effect there, too. So SHAP=1 for now. (Original settings for my set were up in the 5-8 range. Yikes!)

#7-SHF0 has a profound effect on the image even if SHAP=0! To see this, put up the Sharpness screen from the AVIA disk, set the four-parameter group to 1-3-1-3 (including SSMD), vary SHF0 from 3 to 0, and watch what happens to the central crossed-lines pattern! Sony's description is that it sets the sharpness f0 at frequencies from 2.5 to 4.0MHz, but the effect seems much greater and more complex. Settings of 1 and 0 give rise to unacceptable ringing and/or overshoot in the test pattern. SHF0=2 is very good for ordinary NTSC images, giving them a clarity that is attractive. But, seductive as that is, comparison between SHF0=2 and =3 shows that the finest textures are slightly softened with SHF0=2. That effect that may please some folks; however, I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I'm leaning toward 3.

#8-PREO locates the edge sharpening relative to the original edge. PREO=1 is centered, =0 biases it to the left, and =2 and =3 push it progressively to the right. With SHAP=0 and SHF0=3, PREO has a very slight ringing effect, minimized at 0 or 1; I'll bet that slight ringing is invisible on real video. That said, if you prefer SHAP=0, I would set PREO to 0 or 1 just to minimize this ringing (why not?).

Careful tests of very fine DVD video appear to indicate that settings other than PREO=1 *slightly,* (maybe, possibly, if I'm not dreaming) soften the very finest detail. That's all I'll say. I see no advantage to any setting except 1, since that makes SHAP act like a true unsharp-mask. I keep testing, and I keep going back to 1.

#16-SSMD. I know I have flip-flopped on this one. In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. Having chosen a value for SHF0 and in combination with PPHA, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges and, therefore, image clarity.

#19-PPHA. This seems to locate the entire image and all of the above effects relative to a fixed clock, subtly changing ringing and overshoot. Certain combinations of SHF0, SSMD, and PPHA are *absolutely* clean on my set! Default in the chart is 7 for the same 5 inputs mentioned in the SHF0 description, above, and that's how my TV was originally set. But you can freely tinker with this, varying it from, say, 5 to 9 while watching a pattern.

I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly). Later I examined these again with newfound knowledge about the PPHA parameter.

I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD's 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.

The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA:

1-3-1-3-6: Zero overshoot and zero ringing, with astounding clarity on all sources. Perfect Y-pattern phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now. With these values, especially PPHA now at 6, an increased SHAP setting acts like a perfectly symmetrical unsharp mask. Hooray! Nice to know it's there.

1-2-1-3-7 and 1-2-1-2-7: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very clean. Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray Y slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it. (PPHA probably needs fine-tuning.)

1-3-1-0-7 has more overshoot than 1-3-1-3-7, and the latter looks better to me on real video. So my previous advice to leave SSMD set to 0 (the automatic position) may not be the best after all but the differences are small. (PPHA probably needs fine-tuning.)

I guess we should finally add a "minimum-effect" setting of 0-3-1-3-6 for those who want zero edge sharpening from this chip. (PPHA may need fine-tuning.)

[Revision late 2/17: Have added new material about the PPHA parameter. Further tests may alter the values for PPHA in all but the first and last combination recommendations above. But now I'm wondering why I would choose *anything* but 1-3-1-3-6!

I will be very interested in any feedback.

KenTech
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post #1023 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 02:16 PM
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Has anyone who fixed their overscan in 1080i, how did you fix it for 480p? Cause I have my 1080i overscan fixed at about 2.5% all around, but when I go to 480p, the right side is is at around 5%...anyone know what I can do?
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post #1024 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 04:27 PM
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Note: 2/18/06 2:15am updates : updated with more accurate info, as #1). I didn't copy some of my "scribbled" notes very well, and #2). after another session with the set tonight, made some minor changes/improvements with various settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I will be very interested in any feedback.

Hope you don't mind a bit of it from me here, since we've also been talking about these via PM. Thought I should mention that, as otherwise the "timing" of this post might seem odd to folks, given it's only been a couple hours since your post.

Quote:
DVD at 480i thru V5/6 is a near-perfect way to play DVDs thru this set, trumping HDMI IMHO

I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.

Quote:
(There are equivalents for these parameters for a second tuner in 2103-2, but I don't have them enabled in my one-tuner 36XS955.)

Note that relevant 2103-2 SHAP~PREO and SSMD settings are applicable for the Twin-view RIGHT window only on my XBR960, and if I recall correctly perhaps the very tiny "index" feature "windows" as well. The same is true for 2103-2 SCON/SHUE/SCOL. The left twinview window, and the "primary" video in "index" feature is controlled by the 2103-1 settings.

There are seperate settings available in 2103-2 for "RF", and "CV-YC" for these settings, and, sources using the "RF" or CV-YC inputs are the only inputs you can use with the right twinview window, which is allways a "4x3" window as well. I can't use Internal ATSC/HD receiver, or DVD via V5/V6 in Right window for instance, only the left window, which can be used for any source, and which will be a 16x9 window for 16x9 sources, ATSC, or even NTSC 16x9 video from widescreen, so called "anamorphic" DVD's, and it will be a 4x3 window for 4x3 source signals.

Haven't spent a lot of time with this and the "right" Twinview window, but I am currently using 2103-2/SHFO=3, PRE0=1, and SSMD=1 for both RF+CV/YC Twinview Right window. Note that I have not completely "settled" on what I'm going to use for 2103-1/2103-2 "SSMD" for various sources yet.

Although I like 2301-1 SHAP=1 for all sources that use "DRC" best, and don't think at this point I would want to use anything higher than that elsewhere for 2103=1 - Higher values for 2103-2/SHAP do seem useful for Twinview's right window in my case. Note that a "seperate" sharpness slider setting, or AFAIK, another other "sharpness" offset is not available specifically for the right twinview window. So, I currently have 2103-2/SHAP=4 for CV/YC, SHAP=5 for RF.

Given the same source signal used for both windows+given the applicable settings that involve the left window(2103-1 SHAP~PREO for instance), so far, and given my current settings that effect the left window, this is the closest I've gotten to "matching sharpness" of the right window with the left -- For instance --- Lower SHAP values in 2103-2 result in the right window being "blurrier" than the left.

Quote:
I found that it was detrimental to sharp DVD images, and so I choose SHF0=3 for sure for that input (V5). (Five values may be stored for different inputs: RF, CV-YC, V5-V6, HDMI, and ATSC/QAM.) I am still evaluating SHF0=3 vs 2 for NTSC video. I'm leaning toward 3.

At this point, FWIW, I'm preferring SHFO=3 for everything effected by these settings -- It's not as noticable as 480i DVD via component, and it is hard to say -- but at times I think I am also noticing improved detail with it vs. SHFO=2 - especially from very "clean" OTA NTSC sources, and perhaps via SD Satellite receiver or via S-video as well.

Quote:
#16-SSMD...... In the digital world inside the 2103 chip, it seems to push things around a bit, and the image is affected in subtle ways. In combination with SHF0, it affects image overshoot and ringing on sharp edges. I tested 12 combinations of SSMD=0, 2, and 3 (1 looks too weird!), and SHF0 from 0 to 3. SHAP=1 and PREO=1. I examined the AVIA Sharpness crossed-lines pattern. I looked at real DVD-video, particularly Monsters, inc, and Matrix Revolutions, both of which are rich in fine detail and textures that are not exaggerated on the DVD (well, mostly).

I also noted how these filters were screwing with the high-frequency phase by observing the AVIA test pattern Resolution 200 TVL, and paying attention to the vertical wedge patterns. At the narrow end you can see what happens as the line pitch approaches the theoretical limit of resolution for the DVD's 720dpi sample rate: A gray Y-shaped pattern tops the narrow end of the wedge, and its symmetry is an indicator of how linear the phase is as that limit is approached.

While I seem to be getting, and noticing the exact same things as you are with 2103-1/SHAP~PREO, ---- nevertheless, in some cases I seem to be getting something a little different with settings for SSMD and the "Y" symmetry at the narrow end of the wedges in the AVIA TVL 200 resolution pattern, and in just one case concerning overshoot.

For instance, as one example -- 480i DVD via V5/V6(Zenith DVD2381 player :

Quote:
The combinations that work best, IMHO, are these, in order SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD:

1-3-1-3: Very slight overshoot and very slight ringing, but excellent clarity on all sources. Perfect phase symmetry. Gorgeous DVD reproduction. This will be my preferred choice for now.

This paragraph updated with accurate info on "overshoot", as I'd copied it incorrectly from my scribbled notes, orginally : In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, albeit it's a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".

1-3-1-1 results in a very symmetrical "Y", but noticablely more overshoot, and perhaps even a tad bit of ghosting(but WAY to right of some edges) occuring for some reason. However(and I'm not sure I "trust this" much, hooking DVD player up via S-Video, 1-3-1-1 produces minimal ringing or overshoot, and a VERY symmetrical "Y" at the end of the wedges.

Note that also (480i using V5), 1-3-1-0 allows one to see "lines" in the lower right circle labeled "6.75MHZ", regardless of DRC setting used(Interlaced/progressive or cinemotion). those lines, for instance turn into "noise" with 1-3-1-1. Update: checking this again(and writing it down this time!) 1-3-1-3 also turns out to be one of the few "combinations" of settings with mostly "lines" and little noise in the lower right circle, although still more noise than 1-3-1-0.

Thought maybe the differences we are getting on this perhaps could involve output of DVD player(and maybe that has something to do with it) -- However, Also noticed that with 1-3-1-3, (for lack of a better way to describe it), I get sort of a "wavy" look to text in a small ID bug from 480i ATSC SD source via internal tuner, which is "fixed" with 1-3-1-0. 1-3-1-1 fixes it too, but with unacceptable ringing present.

When I get a chance, I'll try hooking up a different, JVC(it's 480i only, but believe it does use a Genesis/Farojuda chip) DVD player I have here and see what I get on these with it.

Update: Ok, tried the other player -- It's a JVC XV-N3SL - I'd used it before to see how various color settings "matched" for 2 different DVD players(and saw no differences), but, "sharpness"/EE wise -- I forgot how ugly this thing looks with the XBR960 -- WOW! Talk about oversharpening ... The player itself has a "picture control" window with settings such as variable "sharpness"(seems I can have "oversharpening" or "undersharpening" anyway) settings, and suffice it to say, nothing I do with this thing, or 2103-1 SHAP~PREO or SSMD will, for instance let me see anything like a "Y", symmetrical or not at the narrow end of the "vertical" TVL200 wedges ... What I think is interesting however, is :

#1). On another set (Toshiba 34HF84 - which uses Genesis/Farojuda Gm6010 IC - which I think is probably the main ingredient in it's scaling/deinterlacing/etc) I use it with, this JVC DVD player actually works quite nicely with it. Interestingly enough, my Zenith DVD player also works fairly nicely with the Toshiba - at 480i or 480p, but unlike with the XBR, I like 480i from the Zenith a little better with it ....

#2). Presumably, involving either one or both of the following : A). The difference in output between one DVD player and another, even with both DVD players outputting 480i, and/or b). The difference in how XBR960 is handling the "different" outputs from 2 different model DVD players.

If nothing else, the much "wider" differences I'm seeing from 480i output from these two different models of DVD players certianly has me less concerned about the differences from Ken's results I'm seeing concerning "symmetrical Y's" and SSMD values, or various combinations of SSMD+SHFO settings.

I think this also may illustrate that it also might be wise for folks to be careful about applying "calibration" settings to other inputs/sources which you "find" with your DVD player .... In my case, I'm certianly thankful for the internal "QM" section of SM test patterns for ATSC 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i !

:end update

Quote:
1-2-1-3 and 1-2-1-2: Excellent clarity for NTSC sources, very clean. Slight loss of finest textures on DVD, maybe perceptible even on great NTSC quality. Kills ringing and overshoot on AVIA Sharpness pattern, but skews gray Y slightly to left on 200 TVL screen. Not a bad choice for NTSC broadcast and may please some. Try it.

I'm getting the same thing as you are with the "Y" on this one, and 1-2-1-2 isn't much different. However, I'm getting more ringing and overshoot with 1-2-1-3 or 1-2-1-2 than I am with 1-2-1-1, which also makes for a very symmetrical "Y".

Although I'd spent quite a bit of time with 1-2-1-0 and generally liked it, I haven't spent much time with programming material trying out SHAP~PREO 1-2-1 with SSMD=3 yet.

------------------------------------------------------

Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ? (thanks ahead of time)

For "completeness" note that I am I'm restarting TV after 15 minutes before looking at these. And, I am using the image processing settings(2170P-3/3d-comb where applicable/etc) as recommended in your Post 707 updates. Exceptions perhaps being :

#1). Update: I did have 480i V5/V6 set to use MIDE column 57"(I have MID5 columns set up as described in your PDF attachement to Post 707), but tonight I decided #60 is better for 480i via component from my DVD player. If we are using "different" MID5 columns, don't think it really seems to effect what I'm getting with the "Y"'s in the TVL-200 wedges.

#2). I'm currently mostly using VM at "Low" or "medium" in user menu, and VML=2 or 4", with VMCR~VMDL(mostly) at 0-3-0-6. Although I expect it probably does not effect this, do note that I should have checked to see if the VM settings had any effect on this, and probably should have turned VM to "off" before looking at the test patterns, but in this case I did not.

Jeff
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post #1025 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

I don't have a HDMI source, yet -- but for what it's worth, and for whatever reasons and, unlike what some others(inlcuding yourself) seem to be getting with 480p DVD via V5/V6 component inputs ---- After looking at it in a little more detail per my last post on this, on my set(KD34XBR960), and with my DVD player at least, I'm still extremely happy with 480p DVD via component - Not a big difference between 480p from DVD player and 480i with say "Cinemotion", but, I'm still getting a tad better results IMO from 480p from DVD player than 480i. Maybe I'm still missing something/not seeing something important about this, though.

This is a typical situation where you need to evaluate the picture from the DVD output at 480i, 480p and 720p/1080i if it will upscale. Depending on the processor in the DVD player, de-inerlacing and scaling can be better in the TV. The XBR960 can produce an excellent picture on V5/V6 with a 480i signal. Never discount this option because all de-interlacing and scaling is not the same.

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post #1026 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

The XBR960 can produce an excellent picture on V5/V6 with a 480i signal. Never discount this option because all de-interlacing and scaling is not the same.

Typical or no, I agree it most certianly does produce an excellent picture via V5/V6 with a 480i signal from the DVD player. I don't believe I said otherwise, anywhere in my post.

The same is true for that matter from 480i ATSC(from internal OTA ATSC receiver) or, NTSC sources from RF(OTA in my case) or CV/YC inputs(I use S-video mainly with S-VHS deck and Dish 311 receiver), or what it also does with 720p source signals -- in my case from 720p ATSC OTA broadcast sources ....

In other words, what I said was, with my particular *DVD player, IMO, it's just a tad better with 480p from player than 480i from the same player, or for that matter in comparision to another(but certianly "cheaper"), newer JVC player(480i only) I own. I didn't say 480i from the DVD player didn't also provide an "excellent" pic, it does.

And, again that is just my opinion, which also does happen to include evaluations/comparisons of 480i/480p from the same DVD player(including comparisions of 480i with DRC interlaced/progressive+cinemotion and various "custom DRC pallate" settings in addition to the factory default Pallate #1) concerning various results with various test patterns, such as the AVIA TVL resolution patterns.

Why that is, I don't know. I do know I've allways been happy with the 480p output from this particular DVD player, including in most cases with other displays I've used it with. Maybe it's just something wrong with my eyes, though, who knows

* - It's A older Zenith Model # DVD2381 from around ~2000~2001 - and no, it doesn't upscale to 720p or 1080i.

If there is some sort of "deficiency" I'm not aware of concerning how XBR960 handles 480P signals, I'd certianly be interested in hearing about it.

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post #1027 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeri534 View Post

Has anyone who fixed their overscan in 1080i, how did you fix it for 480p? Cause I have my 1080i overscan fixed at about 2.5% all around, but when I go to 480p, the right side is is at around 5%...anyone know what I can do?


Anyone?
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post #1028 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Important revision to post #1024 regarding the 2103 parameters:

For some reason, an important timing-phase parameter that affects these digital filters escaped my attention and the article: #19-PPHA. Please re-read above article for revisions. There is a very critical interactiion among SHF0, SSMD, and PPHA. Having chosen a value for SHF0, SSMD and PPHA then can be optimized, and there is a likely setting for those two that trumps all others in clarity and freedom from artifacts. For me, it was (for SHF0=3) SSMD=3 *and* PPHA=6, one notch down from the 7 default, which had clear overshoot after an edge.

Using the settings for SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA of 1-3-1-3-6, I may have discovered a true Sweet Spot! I'll be back with more later, but now . . . the Olympics in HD!

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post #1029 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Any thoughts concerning why we seem to be getting something a little different with SSMD, and or perhaps the "combination" of certian SHFO+SSMD settings ?

Hah! More homework needed! Please read recent "discoveries" about the PPHA parameter, above. Consider "tuning" PPHA for any combination of SHF0 and SSMD, and see what happens.

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post #1030 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Why that is, I don't know. I do know I've allways been happy with the 480p output from this particular DVD player, including in most cases with other displays I've used it with. Maybe it's just something wrong with my eyes, though, who knows

This is what it is all about, finding the combination that looks best with the equipment you have.

You have determined the deinterlacing in your DVD player works/looks better than the one in the your XBR960, mission accomplished.

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post #1031 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 11:05 PM
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Allright, but why wouldn't it make sense to tame 2103_1 first (480i), then make the secondary adjustments with 2170P_3, then fine tune with the mid/pop tweaks as necessary ? (sharpness, edge enhancements)

Your latest finding, Ken, I think, has been the most important of all. Looking at my service manual, out of the box, my setting for SHUE in 2103_1 was 11 for rf (erred to green) and 5 for cv/yc (erred to red). So let's don't talk about color decoding settings. What was Sony thinking about? SHAP is 9 for rf, what? How much oversharpening does rf need? What is tuned here that is compensated for later in the chain? Anyway SCON,SCOL,SHUE are tamed to middle point, 7, middle of the slider, and later tweaked in 2170P_3 for my purposes. Then, of course, comes color decoding again.

Back to the original purpose. Tonight tested your latest findings, with great sucess. RF is much improved with a 2103_1 SHAP setting of 5, from the default of 9. You're right, looks kinda 3D-ish. 480i thru component looks great at 0 and SHFO set to 1, and tweaked later in 2170P_3. Mind now, I'm using MIDE - 0, and the "cone" or "flower" has disappeared on a 200tvl all together.

Even better findings. My old, trusty vcr, thru composite, with 2103_1 SHAP set to 4, is performing like new again. Gone is the overblown, over unsharp masking edges that will plague VHS tapes. Looks dvd-ish......... well not.

I'm doing a little testing of my own, in the audio section, with a spl meter. Figured you will get there eventually. I thought I had a decent 5.1 system, but heck, this 40XBR will run the onboard down to an audible 28 hz, not bad IMO. Most of the parameters deal with "equalizing" the sound that FWIW, Sony did a decent job in this department. The only one that does not seem to behave is the "steady sound".

DRC. Can't wait for this one. Cheers.......
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post #1032 of 2962 Old 02-17-2006, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

If there is some sort of "deficiency" I'm not aware of concerning how XBR960 handles 480P signals, I'd certianly be interested in hearing about it.

I might be guilty of starting that one a while back.

480p fullscreen (4x3) thru my set with a Sony DVP-NS715P was awesome, but for me, if I'm watching anything compressed to 16x9 (960i), I've lost the benefits of the "no flicker" 480p scan. Just for me, seemed sense to make the jump and tinker.
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post #1033 of 2962 Old 02-18-2006, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

This is what it is all about, finding the combination that looks best with the equipment you have.

I agree -- besides, it's fun -- well, it's fun for me anyway


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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Hah! More homework needed! Please read recent "discoveries" about the PPHA parameter, above. Consider "tuning" PPHA for any combination of SHF0 and SSMD, and see what happens.

Will do Ken, thanks ! I'm eager to try this, but I'd better start counting sheep right now

Note that In addition to some slight improvements I found, I also discovered tonight in a "SM session" with the set that I originally copied some of my scribbled notes incorrectly concerning some of my post on 2103-1 and I have just updated that post with the correct info. Most importantly+specifically, I copied down+originally posted wrong info concerning what I was getting with "overshoot" with SHAP~PREO+SSMD at 1-3-1-3 vs. 1-3-1-0 with 480i DVD via component --- follows is the updated, corrected portion of the post(the bolded section shows the change) :

In my case, 1-3-1-3 results in nothing even resembling a "Y" occuring at the narrow end of the AVIA TVL200 wedges, and, also results in increased overshoot as compared to 1-3-1-0 -- With 1-3-1-0 I do have a fairly nice "Y" in the narrow end of vertical wedges, although its a slightly "unsymmertical" "Y".

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post #1034 of 2962 Old 02-18-2006, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA

I have come to believe that, because we appear to be fooling around with timing variables here, we are modifying the *quantizing* that goes on in the digital sampling process. As a result, *some* of the effects one sees on-screen are somewhat incidental or accidental: certain patterns of specific periodicity are emphasized by certain combinations of SSMD and PPHA. (You can see this in the lumpiness of some of the frequency-sweep patterns.) So one has to be careful about drawing hasty conclusions about overall image fidelity. In particular, parts of vertical lines just slightly off-vertical can change apparent sharpness just by being repositioned in the (invisible) sampling grid: a line that straddles two pixels will appear wider and blurrier. So one has to pay attention to random textures, too.

I warmed up my 36XS955 and restarted it. I examined patterns from AVIA that were hard-edged (menus, Sharpness screen) for signs of rank overshoot and ringing, and made a chart of the best SSMD/PPHA combinations for SHF0=3 and 2. Then I put in one of the best-possible DVDs for an acid test of texture: The Matrix, second release. In the facial closeups there are amazing skin textures and hair stubble, and there are fine clothing textures, both random and ribbed. Assorted fine lines, high-contrast edges, and patterns add to this detail goldmine. Oversharpening is almost completely absent, as are MPEG-2 artifacts. I compared the combinations I knew were relatively free of ringing and overshoot for their ability to faithfully and realisticaly reproduce material from this and a couple of other DVDs. I set SHAP=1 and PREO=1 for the whole test, and turned off VM. Sharpness was set to 28 or 30.

Values that work well for SHF0=3 in order SSMD-PPHA: 3-6, 2-6, 1-10, 0-6, 0-7, 3-13. (Note that working PPHA values are usually 6-7 apart.)
For SHF0=2 (much less important to me): 2-14, 3-14.

Now these values may be specific to *my* TV owing to its specific timing characteristics, so no one should be frustrated by an inability to repeat these exact numbers. The important thing, I think, is to realize that there are likely 2-3 values of PPHA that work for a given value of SSMD on your set, and that one of them will probably look best when tested with a real DVD. Some of my choices slightly emphasized coarse detail, as though I had increased SHAP by one notch. A couple of them were so similar, I wondered if coosing between them was completely arbitrary. Ultimately the movie-DVDs helped settle it, but we're not talking big differences, here!

My preferences, in order, turned out to be (for SHF0=3): 2-6, 0-7, 1-10. 2-6 seemed to give the most balanced appearance between coarse and super-fine detail. (Warning: Using SSMD=1 causes a slight red-intensity drop on my RF input, but nothing on V5 for the DVD player.)

So . . . using the long version of the number string from the earlier article, SHAP-SHF0-PREO-SSMD-PPHA, these groups are:

1-3-1-2-6 (favorite), 1-3-1-0-7 (slightly coarser), and 1-3-1-1-10 (possibly the sharpest for DVD, not quite as natural-looking as 1-3-1-2-6, and not recommended for RF/Cable input). For the slightly lower bandwidth SHF0=2: 1-2-1-2-14.

I am going to live with a couple of these for a while, particularly 1-3-1-2-6, and see if the benefits are visible across a variety of program types. I hope this detailed description actually helps someone tune their set, too just be prepared for *different* sets of preferred settings from what I got.

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post #1035 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 10:28 AM
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Interesting how we all seem to be going along similar, but different tracks on this sharpening stuff. Lately I've been getting more away from looking at patterns and focusing more on the effect the basic 2170P-3 parameters have on actual video content, and beginning to reintroduce some VM and Sharpness (via 2170P-3/SHOF) back into the equation, now that the effects of the different edge controls are a little easier for me to distinguish.

I think I've finally nailed down exactly what SYSM does as well. All it really does is modify the coarseness or scale of the effect from other edge controls. 1=Coarse, 2=Medium, 3=Fine. This is why the Sharpness control has a dramatic effect with SYSM=1, but creates only relatively minor looking changes with SYSM=3.

Which SYSM setting you choose may simply depend on the coarseness of the effect that you desire from other edge parameters with a given signal. Let's take the 2170P-3/F1LV and CTLV controls as examples...

If you pause on a frame from Attack of the Clones with a good range of contrast and detail, and set F1LV to its max setting of 3, then vary SYSM from 1 to 3, you should be able to see the change in coarseness between the three SYSM settings pretty well. With F1LV=3, SYSM=1 should create some fairly bright, coarse and noticeable (and rather ugly-lookin) edge artifacts. If you increase Sharpness, these edge artifacts will become even more pronounced and uglier-lookin. Now change SYSM to 2. The edge artifacts become smaller and more tightly confined. Raise SYSM to 3 and the artifacts become even smaller in scale and less apparent. The effect of both F1LV and Sharpness becomes progressively smaller and less noticeable/dramatic in scale as you increase SYSM from 1 to 3.

CTLV is a little more subtle, but you should see the same shrinkage of effect with that as well. If you set CTLV to the max of 3, then flip between the three SYSM settings you should see the softening effect on color detail change from being pretty broad and soft (SYSM=1) to more tightly confined and harder to see (SYSM=3). The "strength" of the softening effect on colored edges may not be changing, but the "area" effected becomes narrower and more confined as you increase SYSM.

The change in behavior of CTLV can be easily seen on this pattern as well. Set SYSM to 1, and then raise and lower CTLV from 0-3, and should see changes in saturation on both the thin and fat colored lines. Change SYSM to 2 and 3 however, and you'll see the desaturation effect of CTLV become more limited to just the thinner lines.

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post #1036 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 11:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I think I've finally nailed down exactly what SYSM does as well. All it really does is modify the coarseness of some other edge controls. 1=Coarse, 2=Medium, 3=Fine. This is why the Sharpness control has a dramatic effect with SYSM=1, but creates only relatively minor looking changes with SYSM=3.

Which SYSM setting you choose may simply depend on the coarseness of the effect that you desire from other edge parameters with a given signal.

The major problem with this proposition is that it's fairly easy to collect evidence that seems to contradict it, indicating that the effects of SYSM are more complex than that.

The best example has recently been discussed in exchanges on this forum: that the setting of SYSM changes *qualitatively* how the Sharpness control affects edgy detail and textures. Absent enabling any other enhancements, setting SYSM=2 plus increasing Sharpness increases medium, fine, and finest detail in increasing proportion, like a video frequency (and therefore spatial frequency) ramp-up. But if SYS=3, the action of the Sharpness control doesn't just shift to a higher frequency renge of influence: it's character changes. Medium-fine detail, and maybe fine, increase as you increase Sharpness, but very fine detail is *not* enhanced. Fine textures are, in fact, somewhat masked by an exaggerated presence of mid-fine detail. (The weave of the sweater becomes more obvious, but it appears no more furry, i.e. the fibers are no sharper.)

Further, on perfectly sharp edges, SYSM=3 plus turning Sharpness *way* up results in a bright line of overshoot following an edge. If SYS=2, however, these bright lines adhere to *both* sides of the edge, pre- and post-transition, like true unsharp-masking. The fact that the entire picture shifts a bit to the right with SYSM=2 also reveals that a delay has been added to the path for the basic image, allowing pre-edge enhancement. Without that delay (SYSM=3), pre-edge enhancement is impossible.

So I believe a comparison between SYSM=2 and 3 reveals a more complicated effect than simply that SYSM=3 affects higher spatial frequencies than SYS=2. For that matter, the evidence is that exactly the opposite is true! "Smooth" seems to be its only virtue.
Quote:


but the "area" affected becomes narrower and more confined as you increase SYSM

For some parameters this may be true. I haven't tried to catalog the ways that the fundamental SYSM setting modifies parameters other than the action of the Sharpness control. Its action as a fairly pure unsharp-mask at SYSM=2 seems to be the only sensible choice for me, and I have given up on SYSM=3 for anything. SYSM=1 is so absent any finesse that I can't envision a use for it.

This means, of course, that I have chosen SYSM=2 for its salient, useful effects on overall image fidelity. CTLV and other parameters that may be modified by SYSM, and whose effects are more subtle or subordinate, will be used by me in that context or not at all.

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post #1037 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

New experiments with the 2103-1 parameters, SSMD and PPHA

"Fine tuning" of SSMD+PPHA seems to be working for me to find those "sweet spots" I was looking for! And I'm really liking what I'm seeing. For me, the key to finding those sweet spots has involved :

#1). First settling on the value of 2103-1/SHFO I want to use - which is SHFO=3. I'm also using SHAP=1 and PREO=1, except for higher SHAP values in 2103-2 for right twinview window. I don't know at this point If I'll put much time into finding the combinations of SSMD+PPHA that will work for SHFO=2, as at this point at least, I think I've pretty much decided on SHFO=3 for all sources/inputs.

#2). Finding the combinations of SSMD+PPHA which seem work best for SHFO=3. In some cases, as you noted in your post there are even several combinations of SSMD+PPHA which work in an "in the ballpark" sense with any given setting of SSMD, generally with PPHA values 5~6 or so apart in my case. This involved :

A). Use of The AVIA sharpness+TVL patterns to get in the "ballpark" to find the various combinations of SSMD+PPHA which produced minimal ringing or overshoot, and "symmetrical Y's" in the narrow end of the TVL wedges+where possible "less clumpy" horizontal sweeps/etc ... Note that I checked these extensively with DVD player at 480i via V5+V6, and a little less extensively with DVD player via S-video(CV/YC).

B). Checking the various combinations I found with a). with real programming material from various sources/inputs and finding the ones that *-work best for each input/source -- Which, in some cases do not necessarily involve the absolute "best" combination of values of SSMD+PPHA concerning looking at the test patterns most symmetrical Y's/etc -- But, at this point, my preferred settings are also from the "list" of "in the ballpark" combinations of SSMD+PPHA.

I think for me, BOTH A+B were/are very important. Without "A", I doubt I would have ever had much luck with "B".

* - While I think I've found some nice "sweet spots" for now, for the reasons you mentioned, this is going to be a "ongoing thing", and it may be quite a while before I completely "settle" on the combination of SSMD/PPHA to be used for any given input/source.

Quote:


I have come to believe that, because we appear to be fooling around with timing variables here, we are modifying the *quantizing* that goes on in the digital sampling process. As a result, *some* of the effects one sees on-screen are somewhat incidental or accidental: certain patterns of specific periodicity are emphasized by certain combinations of SSMD and PPHA. (You can see this in the lumpiness of some of the frequency-sweep patterns.) So one has to be careful about drawing hasty conclusions about overall image fidelity. In particular, parts of vertical lines just slightly off-vertical can change apparent sharpness just by being repositioned in the (invisible) sampling grid: a line that straddles two pixels will appear wider and blurrier. So one has to pay attention to random textures, too.

I think this perfectly describes what I've also experienced with this so far. Excellent post(in its entirety)+ description of these !

Quote:


Now these values may be specific to *my* TV owing to its specific timing characteristics, so no one should be frustrated by an inability to repeat these exact numbers. The important thing, I think, is to realize that there are likely 2-3 values of PPHA that work for a given value of SSMD on your set, and that one of them will probably look best when tested with a real DVD.

Not frustrated here at all -- I think it is interesting that while not "exactly" the same, the combinations of SSMD+PPHA I'm getting for the "sweet spots" are mostly within a couple of values for PPHA from your numbers, and in one case(SSMD=1/PPHA-10) actually *IS* exactly the same.

On my set, With SHAP~PREO 1-3-1, using 480i DVD via V5/V6 component and the AVIA test patterns, here is the list of "in the ballpark" values(first values to right of each "SSMD" value seem best at this point and are my current preferences) for :

SSMD=2 or 3 -- PPHA 8 or 7, PPHA 3 or 2, PPHA 14 or 15
SSMD=1 --- PPHA 10 or 5
SSMD=0 --- PPHA 8 or 7 , 2 or 1, 14 or 13

Here's the list of best values(I didn't spend as much time on this - the below do make for VERY good results from the Y's in the TVL wedges/etc) I could find using DVD player hooked up via S-video :

SSMD=2 or 3 - PPHA 6
SSMD=1 - PPHA 8
SSMD=0 - PPHA 10 or 5

I thought it interesting that these turned out a little different than 480i DVD via component. While it is awfully difficult to say -- It appeared that, for instance SSMD=2/PPHA=8 may or may not have resulted in *very slightly* less overshoot than SSMD=2/PPHA=6 -- everything else(including programming material via S-video sources) is telling me PPHA=6 is better.

At first I thought, well, if this is the case with S-video inputs(which appears to be the case with real programming material via s-video sourdces as well), then perhaps it has more to do with something involving output of my DVD player via component, and perhaps ONLY the DVD player is working best with those settings ... but, using real programming material, and trying for instance SSMD=2/PPHA=6 with RF and 480i ATSC, It seemed apparent(at this point at least) that just does not seem to be the case.

So, at this point at least, I believe it is only the S-video input that needs slightly different combinations of settings for SSMD~PPHA. I'm not really using composite video inputs for anything(except from RF input), but it might be interesting to hook DVD player up via composite video input and check the test patterns and see what I get.

---------------------------------------------------------------

My preferences at this point :

Using SHAP~PREO 1-3-1 for all effected inputs/sources, Here are my preferred settings at this point per inputs I'm using+some notes. Again, I also haven't settled on all of these completely yet, but at this point at least they all seem to be working very nicely :

RF Input(In my case, used only for OTA NTSC sources) :

SSMD=2
PPHA =8

From what I can tell so far, at this point this seems to be the *definite* sweet spot for OTA NTSC sources. It looks wonderful.

CV/YC :

I use this with S-Video inputs, specifically Dish Network 311 receiver and JVC S-VHS deck :

SSMD=2
PPHA=6

At first, I had spent quite a bit of time with this one and SSMD=2/PPHA=8 -- per the results I found with Test patterns+480i DVD via component -- which seemed to work fairly well(more detail than you might expect from SD NTSC sources for instance), but, still there was just something that didn't quite seem "right" about it. So, Considering what I found with the test patterns via DVD hooked up via S-video after looking at quite a bit of programming(and user menus in Dish network+the S-VHS VCR), for now, I've decided I like SSMD=2/PPHA=6 better. Chances are good I might "flip flop" on this one again, though ...

ATSC 480i and V5/V6 for 480i DVD :

SSMD=1
PPHA=10

Important note : This one is a bit of a dilemma. While I think at this point I like SSMD=2, PPHA=8 for DVD just a tad better --- unfortunetly, 480i ATSC+V5/V6 use a single PPHA value from the "others" column, and at this point I think I'm seeing a fairly clear preference for SSMD=1/PPHA=10 for ATSC 480i. Seems to be The "sweet spot" for natural looking, and detailed "textures" for a few high quality 480i ATSC/OTA sources of importance which I'm not quite getting with SSMD~PPHA=2~8. High quality 480i ATSC sources(some in the area certianly are not "high quality" however) very much have a "DVD-like" quality with SSMD=1/PPHA=10, that is *almost* but not quite there with SSMD=2/PPHA=8 ....

At first I thought this wouldn't be much of a dilemma, since previously, I've allways slightly perferred sending 480p from the player. HOWEVER, now it looks like with SSMD=2, PPHA=8, (but not so much with SSMD=1/PPHA=10) I'm starting to develop a slight preference for 480i from the player, as it now seems just a TAD bit(but not much) better than 480p concerning "natural looking" texture, and perhaps even a tad more detail visable ... decisions, desisions ...

I tried to see if using SSMD=0/PPHA 8 or 7 might be a good "in the middle of the road" compromise that would work well for both 480i ATSC and 480i DVD, but it didn't seem to be the case, as for instance, I still perfer 480p DVD over this option, and it didn't work as well for ATSC 480i either.

------------------------------

Quote:


(Warning: Using SSMD=1 causes a slight red-intensity drop on my RF input, but nothing on V5 for the DVD player.)

Noticed this as well -- it effects CV/YC(Dish network receiver/etc) in my case as well, but Not V5/V6 or 480i ATSC (component video sources).

I haven't checked it yet, but at some point I will probably check AVIA/DVE color tests with DVD hooked up via Svideo with "one gun" tests using RGBS and see what happens with SSMD=1. As, from what I recall before with balancing color+S-video input, I'm thinking there may be a slight possibility SSMD=1 may be useful for me for S-video in this regard.

Jeff
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post #1038 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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New Image-Processing Codes Chart

I have updated "IPChart05tall.pdf" from post #707 to include the SSMD and PPHA parameters, and I have updated a couple of the descriptions. Also removed some wordiness to keep the whole thing on one legal-size page. See attachment below.

 

IPChart06tall.pdf 82.9736328125k . file

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post #1039 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
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So I believe a comparison between SYSM=2 and 3 reveals a more complicated effect than simply that SYSM=3 affects higher spatial frequencies than SYS=2.

Could be temporal to start with. If SYSM simply varies the clockspeed/frequency of the edge filters under it's control, the differences would translate into a broader (SYSM=1) or narrower (SYSM=3) effect in a horizontal direction on the screen. I'm not sayin that's exactly what's happenin since this is beyond my scope of expertise, but if you set Sharpness to it's highest or lowest setting and then switch between the different SYSM modes while looking at a pattern like this, that's pretty much the effect you'll see. The Sharpening or softening effect becomes more condensed in a horizontal direction as SYSM is increased from 1 to 3. And it seems to work the same for F1LV and CTLV.

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post #1040 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 04:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Could be temporal to start with.

Well it certainly must be for SYSM=2 and its unsharp-mask effect, sort of the point I was making about the entire picture shifting to the right -- a dead giveaway, IMO. That this shift is absent or much less with SYSM=3, it's possible that a different mechanism is in play. (A Sony description of SYSM uses the terms "flat" for 3, but "broad peak" for 2, and "sharp peak" for 1 and 0. But these terms may be really poorly chosen and translated.)

None of us has any knowledge of the engineering details behind these settings, and we're all guessing how they're implemented. My personal goal has been to characterize them well enough to be able to make wise choices of settings. Analyzing *why* they act as they do indulges my engineering nature, but it's not absolutely necessary. I see from the evidence what SYSM=2 does for all images I use for testing it, and so I feel I understand, if only "organically" or intuitively, what it does. I can't get SYSM=3 to act on the finest textures without exaggerating coarser detail, and so now it's off my list. SYSM=2 doesn't have this problem.

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post #1041 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

I think it is interesting that while not "exactly" the same, the combinations of SSMD+PPHA I'm getting for the "sweet spots" are mostly within a couple of values for PPHA from your numbers, and in one case(SSMD=1/PPHA-10) actually *IS* exactly the same.

I'm very grateful for your extensive contribution! I think it sort of proves that there may be a "ballpark" for these "sweet" parameter-pairs, but I'm not at all surprised to hear that you have arrived at slightly different numbers. Some of those numbers, however, really do agree, and so maybe PPHA is the real wildcard.

The downside is that, unlike some of the other parameters that can be adopted by most users without testing (color-matrix stuff comes to mind), with these I am unable to say "Oh, yeah, just crank in the numbers 1-3-1-2-6, and you'll have perfection." The 1-3-1-2 may get you 90% of the way there, but that final PPHA component I believe really has to be "tuned." Too bad for non-tinkerers! I hope that, since you and I have each elaborated on our *method,* that others may be game to try, too. So far I really like what I am seeing!

Good friends of mine who have bought the same set, on which I have already made numerous adjustments, will get this SSMD/PPHA treatment, and I'll report back how their settings differ.

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post #1042 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 09:59 PM
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I have a question that i couldn't find the answer to by searching the thread. I have a patch of discoloration for lack of a better word in the upperleft hand corner right along the edge and about an inch from the top of the screen. It's kind of blueish i guess. I only really notice it when that part of the screen is white. Is there a setting i can play with to correct this?
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post #1043 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 11:00 PM
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So I know phosphor trailing on tube televisions are common place which I am fine with by on my kv30hs420 they are a little ridiculous sometimes. When playing any games on the television that have darker backgrounds and lighter images the trailing can get very very bad. At some points especially in games like donkey kong country when the screen is moving fast the trailing can reach a length of an inch and a half past the object! I know there is no way to get rid of this problem completely but if anyone where to give me any advice on how to reduce it even by a little I would be thankful. Thank you to everyone ahead of time for the help!
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post #1044 of 2962 Old 02-19-2006, 11:26 PM
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If you're using 480p, or 480i with DRC/Progessive or Cinemotion, try switching to something that will display in an interlaced mode like 1080i, or using DRC/Interlaced (960i) for 480i upconversion. 720p should also convert to interlaced 1080i for display. Increase ambient illumination, ie turn a few lamps on and don't game in the dark. Avoid Pro picture mode if possible. Also try adjusting game gamma (especially if using Pro). Try both darkening and lightening gamma to see which works better for you. Try some different Brightness settings. See my remarks here as well. That's about all I can think of off the top of my head.

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post #1045 of 2962 Old 02-20-2006, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phatl View Post

I have a patch of discoloration

What model set?

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post #1046 of 2962 Old 02-20-2006, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentech View Post

That this shift is absent or much less with SYSM=3, it's possible that a different mechanism is in play.

FWIW there's a shift when switching between all three SYSM settings on my XBR800.
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A Sony description of SYSM uses the terms "flat" for 3, but "broad peak" for 2, and "sharp peak" for 1 and 0. But these terms may be really poorly chosen and translated.)

Those terms seem more or less in accord with my interpretation, but what I see on the screen is the reverse of their descriptions. SYSM=0/1 creates the broadest/coarsest effects on my TV, while SYSM=3 creates the narrowest/finest. Perhaps they're looking at it differently though.
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Medium-fine detail, and maybe fine, increase as you increase Sharpness, but very fine detail is *not* enhanced. Fine textures are, in fact, somewhat masked by an exaggerated presence of mid-fine detail.

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I can't get SYSM=3 to act on the finest textures without exaggerating coarser detail, and so now it's off my list. SYSM=2 doesn't have this problem.

Understood. Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.

Another potential problem with SYSM=3 is just the fact that the edge effects are so "condensed" together that fine-tuning them may be more difficult. Switching to SYSM=1 or 2 may give a more "magnified/enhanced" view of what's going on though for effects such as Sharpness, CTLV and F1LV.

SYSM=3 could possibly be more beneficial at higher resolutions as well. 720p and 1080i are generally assigned higher SYSM settings (usually 3) than 480i and 480p in the defaults for example.
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Further, on perfectly sharp edges, SYSM=3 plus turning Sharpness *way* up results in a bright line of overshoot following an edge. If SYS=2, however, these bright lines adhere to *both* sides of the edge, pre- and post-transition, like true unsharp-masking. The fact that the entire picture shifts a bit to the right with SYSM=2 also reveals that a delay has been added to the path for the basic image, allowing pre-edge enhancement. Without that delay (SYSM=3), pre-edge enhancement is impossible.

PROV should provide some control over how ringing/overshoot is centered in relation to the edge. Achieving a well-defined unsharp-mask effect like you're after may be difficult with SYSM=3 though because the edge effects may be so tightly packed together that they're basically overlapping each other (especially if the CRT guns aren't well-focused?). So the best you may be able to achieve is a more "evenly diffused" edge.

FWIW, my latest take on the 2170P-3 edge controls (excluding velocity modulation):

SYSM
Controls the coarseness of various edge effects such as Sharpness, F1LV, CTLV, and possible others. 1=Coarse. 3=Fine.

SHOF
Sharpness offset.

SHF0
Still having some difficulty describing the effect of this control. SHF0=1 seems to give the picture a stiffer, "flatter", more textural monitor-like feeling. SHF0=0 makes a deeper, smoother, looser feeling picture. Still going back and forth on these.

PROV
Adjusts the emphasis (ie ringing/overshoot) to the left or right of edges in small increments. If this control isn't "centered" well, the biased effect on edges will sort of pull your eye towards the left or right side of the screen in normal video content.

F1LV
Enhances the brightness of edges, especially elevating shadow details so they're easier to see. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.

LTMD=0/LTLV=1-3
Smooths out low-contrast detail (including noise, grain and compression artifacts) and sharpens/defines high-contrast edges.

LTMD=1/LTLV=1-3
Enhances edge-definition across the board, bringing higher-contrast edges forward.

CTLV
Softens color details by reducing saturation at edges. 0=highest color saturation at edges and sharpest color detail. 3=lowest edge saturation, and generally softest-looking color detail. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.

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post #1047 of 2962 Old 02-20-2006, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

What model set?

no problem. xbr910. Thanks Ken.
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post #1048 of 2962 Old 02-21-2006, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

FWIW there's a shift when switching between all three SYSM settings on my XBR800.

Well, you see *two* shifts, between the settings. Which points up a flaw in my thinking: How do I know that SYSM=3 isn't shifted as well, since we don't have a guaranteed "zero-shift" reference point? So I am reexamining my "conclusions" based on that logic. (Everything I "conclude" is on probation!)
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Those terms seem more or less in accord with my interpretation, but what I see on the screen is the reverse of their descriptions.

It's consistent, actually. Progressing from SYSM=0/1 thru 3 *raises* the video frequencies that are affected and therefore makes the effects' visual representation on-screen smaller. (Higher video frequencies => higher spatial frequencies => smaller effects on-screen.)
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Not sure if this is related, but one thing I noticed in tests with SYSM=3 was that SHF0=1 seemed to have a somewhat more destructive effect on fine detail in that mode.

I can't confirm, but I really dislike the effects introduced by SHF0=0, and that setting is what smears fine textures to my eyes. (I presume you mean the SHF0 in 2170P-3.)
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Another potential problem with SYSM=3 is just the fact that the edge effects are so condensed and crowded together that fine-tuning them to do anything useful may be more difficult.

I am coming to agree with this and am backing off of my assertion that very fine detail cannot be improved with SYSM=3. I have now found that it is possible to taylor the filters in MID5 so that, with SYSM=3 and Sharpness cranked up to 40 (!), I have DVD and HD display that is essentially the same as what I was getting with SYS=2 and Sharpness at 28. Finessing this seems to be the key. I watched last evening's Olympics in HD with SYSM=3 plus a new custom corresponding MID5 column, and on those incredible computer graphics -- the ones with the five Olympic rings about 1/2" wide on-screen -- saw a remarkably balanced picture. Obviously I'm full of beans claiming that finest detail can't be brought out with SYSM=3. I've just had a real resistance to cranking up the Sharpness control that high! Now that I've rid myself of that prejudice, I'll have more to say about it.
Quote:


SHF0 -- Still having some difficulty describing the effect of this control. SHF0=1 seems to give the picture a stiffer, "flatter", more textural monitor-like feeling. SHF0=0 makes a deeper, smoother, looser feeling picture.

That the picture is substantially shifted to the right with SHF0=0 indicated that a time-domain effect is being added. But it's really hard to characterize for me, too, and I have watched it smear ultra-fine texture. So, barring some epiphany, SHF0=1 is my only choice for now.
Quote:


PROV -- Adjusts the emphasis (ie ringing/overshoot) to the left or right of edges in small increments. If this control isn't "centered" well, the biased effect on edges will sort of pull your eye towards the left or right side of the screen in normal video content.

Experiments I have run with Sharpness turned *way* up show that PROV moves the edge enhancement to the left as you increase it from 0 thru 3, and 3 seems centered, not too far to the left. I'm choosing centered for now because it makes sense in helping these filters to develop a true unsharp-mask effect.
Quote:


F1LV -- Enhances the brightness of edges, especially elevating shadow details so they're easier to see. Coarseness of the effect is controlled by SYSM.

I can't confirm that there is any differential effect depending on brightness. For the interaction with SYSM, did you reduce Sharpness so its effects are not confounding you observation?
Quote:


LTMD~CTLV

I'm generally not happy with what these parameters do to fine images. I'm sure there may be a "rescue" mission for horrible video that justifies them, but I can't test that.

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post #1049 of 2962 Old 02-21-2006, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phatl View Post

I have a question that i couldn't find the answer to by searching the thread. I have a patch of discoloration for lack of a better word in the upperleft hand corner right along the edge and about an inch from the top of the screen. (34XBR910)

There are two issues that interact: The beam-landing settings in the LANDING group of service mode, and the heating of the aperture-grille by a bright-white screen and its resultant (unpredictable) warping.

One of the first things I did to my set was to cure dark, bluish patches in the corners and minimize the patches like you described. Bottom line: They might occur no matter what when the whole screen is white from top to bottom at the left part of your screen, and you'll either have to live with it or reduce the Picture setting so whites are not so bright.

General procedure, using settings in LANDING group in SM:

(0) WRITE DOWN all of the original settings in LANDING for the first ten items, LT~LVPH. Put up a gray uniform screen, or a white screen with Picture cranked way down. Do NOT use a bright-white screen! Make sure your set is oriented the way you usually watch it.

(1) Set TESW to 1 to disable the four corner adjustments temporarily, and set EWSP and ENSW for brightest corners with least discoloration.

(2) Set TESW back to 0, and touch up the four settings, LT (left-top) thru RB (right-bottom), for even, bright corners with minimum discoloration. Note that if you go too far with a corner control, you may cause a green patch somewhere else -- there's lots of interaction. If you want to start from scratch, set LT~RB each to 127, and go from there. Go around the screen a few times -- these settings interact. Watch for new patches of discoloration that may sneak in. The is no guarantee of perfection, but a big improvement may be the happy result.

(3) WRITE the settings.

(4) Watch the TV for a few days with these settings to see if they're right for your normal viewing habits. I can guarantee that you will likely always see a few greenish or pinkish patches if you watch B/W movies with the Picture set high. It's the curse of the Big CRT!

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post #1050 of 2962 Old 02-21-2006, 11:22 AM
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Looking for some basic help with geomtery and overscanning. I am using input #5 for my 360 and I would like to adjust the overscan a bit. What exactly do I need to do. I read through a thread about the service menu but I am a bit confused. Does each input have its own settings in the service menu or does a change in geometry affect all inputs for example? What about for different sources/signals? Does 1080i have to be adjusted differently than a signal that is 720P? For the most part I am mainly concerned with getting a quality display from the 360 running at 1080i. The analog signals from my cable box running through input 1 are also somewhat important or an area I may like to adjust. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. I think I will leave the color and white/black levels as is for now. However if you have any suggestions for quick a dirty color adjustments I am listening.

Thanks
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