Sorry about the length of below, but hopefully some of it is useful in some way ...
Originally Posted by Napoleon D
and most especially, MIDES set to zero..... ... , when you toggle between MIDE columns=0 and a minimum MIDE-column setting, the sharpness pattern respecitvely improves. ..... Maybe i'm just confused about the function of the MIDE column ....
I'm having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here, which is why I'm not sure if you understand how P2170-3/ MIDE and MID5 table/Columns/controls "work" ....
If you set 2170P-3/MIDE to "0" for 480p V5/V6(component input), for instance, that is "assigning" MID5 Column "0" to be used with 480p scan rate from component input. If you haven't changed all the values to "0" for all the controls in MID5 Column "0", setting MIDE=0 certainly does not equate to NO MID5 processing, but setting MIDE=63 (a MID5 "all zeros" column -- assuming factory values) does, effectively "turn off" all MID5 processing ....
On XBR960 for instance, MID5 Column "0" is set up for the factory pro defaults as assigned for "RF" input(which is also set for "SYSM=1" from the factory, btw), With 2(low pass filters) of the 17 MID5 controls set to values other than "Zero" ---- MHLY is set to "1", and MHLC set to "3" Yuck, IMO ! -- But, using MHLY=2(even if all the other MID5 paramenters are set to "0") when using SYSM=3(also use P2170-3/SHOF=3 for "mid range" sharpness slider settings) is a whole "different" ball of wax, so to speak!
Given the "factory" settings on XBR960 -- MID5 Column #63 is one MID5 column that has nothing but "zeros" in it, so if you want to "turn off" processing from MID5, use a value of MIDE=63 for the scan rate/input/etc. you're using ..... In this particular case, MIDE=63 should be "sharper" than MIDE=0. ......
here's another hopefully useful(probably more understandable than the above) explanation from Ken Tech :
From Section #2 Of Ken Tech Article #10 - "Presets" and related Service Codes
Originally Posted by KenTech
(2) 2170P-3 #16, MIDE points to a column in the immense MID5 table, which has 18 unique codes (rows) and 64 columns. MID5 #0, POP is a temporary pointer to any particular column in this table, so you can make changes without schlepping back and forth between 2170P-3 and MID5. Example: If you wanted to make changes in the settings for MIDE = 21, you can go to the MID5 #0, POP, and set it to 21. Then you are in column 21, and you can step thru the codes, make changes, and write them. Now any time you set MIDE in the 2170P-3 tables to 21, those settings you just made will take effect. (Of course, more than one column in the 2170P-3 tables can have MIDE = 21, and it will be the *same* 21.)
Here, in Post 88
Ken responded to question from Jsperm :
Originally Posted by jsperm
3) Is it that for each combination (eg video 6, 480 p, Movie) for MIDE, the number in the appropriate column points to the column of settings in MID5 that are used for that set of 17 values (the MID5 parameters?). . . . Am I getting this right?
Originally Posted by KenTech
Yep. You have it exactly right. "Getting" this is a requirement for intelligent image tweaking, as I described in Article #12.
Originally Posted by Napoleon D
What exactly are MIDE settings adding to the image?
Rather than providing descriptions of the "useful"(IMO) MID5 controls here -- I think the answer to your question is mostly available in the descriptions of the Image processing controls(including MID5 controls) Ken provided in "IPChart06all.pdf" chart which is attached to Post #1039
Also be sure to check out the updated info on MID5/MHLY and SYSM=3 in Ken's Post 1138
Also, If you haven't already done so, I'd recommended digging up the service code chart PDF for your set and downloading it/printing it out so you can more clearly see how "scan rate or input specific" SM settings work. And, in the case of P2170-3/MIDE and MID5 columns, to perhaps get a clearer idea of how those settings "relate" to one another ... I don't recall which set you are using, but the servicecode chart for XS955+XBR960 is attached as/labeled as XS955:XBR960 Service Data.pdf, here at Post 715
I would also recommend thinking about "customizing" one or more of your pic modes other than "pro", so otherwise your "customized pic mode" is the same as "pro" -- This makes it possible to easily make "side by side" comparisions of different image processing settings set up in different pic mode. See KenTech's Article #5 - Customizing Picture Modes
for info on how to do this.
For even more background+info concerning image processing settings, including info on MID5 table controls and what they do --- You might also want to read through some of Ken Tech's previous articles on "Image processing". Such as :
#1). Ken's Article #12 - Optimizing Image Decoding, Shaping, and Enhancement"
. Note that the "meat" of the article is contained in the PDF file attached to that post.
#2) post #707
(tuned for SYSM=2 values). Note : well, looks like Post 707 is actually post 706, now, as someone must have deleted an earlier post ... LOL ....
Just keep in mind, some earlier "discoveries" (such as Ken Tech's article #12) have been improved upon in later articles, so some of the settings or info described in earlier articles are not allways necessarily the "currently" relevant info on those thesttings, although I think there is still much useful info to be found in those earlier articles/posts for those who haven't been "following along" and trying these settings out ....
Utilizing info in links I provided above, I think you may be able to gain a better understanding of the image processing which is occuring, the controls that can be used to improve and "fine tune" image processing and EE, and, perhaps a better understanding concerning how to go about "tweaking" for improvments to get what you want - Including the MID5 controls, some of which I think can be quite useful. I believe there are also a few other posts earlier in this thread which may be benefical to you in this regard as well, but I don't have time currently to dig up their URL's ....
From all that I have seen, MIDE only seems appropriate to SYSM-3.
I disagree, and I just don't see how that can be the case. Various settings available in P2170P-3, MID5, and 2103-1(the latter only in the case of SD that passes throgh 2103cxa chip) -- are all *relevant* and approriate for image processing no matter which value of SYSM you are using .... And, how those settings(besides MID5 table settings) are set in your case for any given input/scan rate are *relevant*, important factors here as well.
In the interest of not making this post overly "long" -- I won't address 2103-1 settings, or the 2170P-3 VM settings here : Otherwise --- Specifically for 2170P-3, in additon to SYSM this would involve - SHOF, SHFO, PROV, F1LV, LTLV, LTMD, CTLV. VM settings can pretty much be thought of "seperately", and for now, let's just assume you have VM "off". Mostly Per Ken Tech's recommendations, along with what I "like" from these settings with my own evaluations/testing, I have these set (for all inputs/scan rates, and for my "customized" Vivid/Standard/Movie Pic modes - I've left "pro" at it's defaults for now) at :
SHOF = "0" for SYSM=2, "3" for SYSM=3
SHFO = 1
PROV = 3
F1LV = 0
LTLV = 0
LTMD = 1
CTLV = 0
If you've got something different from the above -- especially perhaps LTLV or LTMD -- then, certianly we are going to see something quite "different", even if we are both using a MID5 Column with all its controls set to "0".
That doesn't necessarily mean, for instance you'd want to "change" the value of P2170-3/SHF0 because of a different value for SYSM is being used, only that the setting used for SHF0 is a relevant and "approrpriate" setting that is involved, no matter what value is used for SYSM .... For SYSM=3, You *will* however want to have 2170P-3/SHOF to "3" for midrange "sharpness slider" setting, and for SYSM=2, SHOF=0 for mid range sharpness slider setting ....
Now, that being said, I suppose a case could certianly be made for using an "all zeros" MID5 Column, no matter what value for SYSM is used .... that may be more a matter of preference. However :
#1). I'm likely going to want to use MID5/MHLY=2, and 2170P-3 SHOF=3 if I'm using SYSM=3, and MID5/MHLY=0, 2170P-3/SHOF=0 if I'm using SYSM=2. Apparently(from what we've discovered so far) Those are the only *siginficant* changes and balancing that need to occur for SYSM=2 vs. SYSM=3. Additional, but VERY subtle "fine tuning" of MID5 columns for SYSM=3 instead of using SYSM=2 are useful, but it's a VERY subtle thing --- for SYSM=3 MHYE/MHCE +1 or +2 from the SYSM=2 settings, and in some cases(For SD, Not DVD) with SYSM=3 use of slight vertical EE via MVYL=3 seems to work well.
Try this : Using SYSM=3, SHOF=3, and sharpness slider at "31" -- With 480p from DVD, Check it out starting with a MID5 column with all zeros. Such as factory defaults for column #63 -- use 2170P-3/MIDE=#63 which assigns MID5 column #63 to 480p. Except, change MID5 Column #63's MID5/MHLY to "2". Then, compare that with MID5/MHLY=0, by changing MID5 Column #63's MHLY back to "0" --- which makes it "all zeros" again, and turns MID5 processing off. Switch between MID5/MHLY=0 vs MID5/MHLY=2 -- put up AVIA Sharpness pattern and especially look at what happens with the horizontal sweep portion of the pattern when you change MHLY between 0 and 2 ... Now, compare SYSM=3/SHOF=3/MHLY=2 to SYSM=2, using SHOF=0, MHLY=0 and sharpness slider=31 .... Do the same thing, but with *real* program material ..... Any differences you might see should be quite subtle ... Also, don't forget that how you have other settings in P2170-3 are also "relevant" to some extent here - such as PROV, F1LV, LTMD, SHFO/etc ...
# 2) I personally prefer to "fine tune" the MID5 columns a bit for "fine detail" in a subtle way, and that is as true with SYSM=2 as it is SYSM=3. What I mean by "fine tuning" involves different MID5 columns set up and "assigned" via 2170P-3 MIDE for different scan rates/inputs --- and, as is explained in KenTech's articles -- specifically "fine tuning" with the following MID5 controls(everything else in the MIDE "assigned" MID5 columns are set to "0", except for MHLY=2 if I'm using SYSM=3) : MHYL/MHYE, MHCL/MHCE. For SD(but not DVD) in some cases something a little less subtle using MHYO/MHCO, and also in some cases(480p DVD and in some cases also with SYSM=3 for SD) a little vertical EE via MVYL=3.
For me, it seems that setting SYSM-3 introduces far more variable into the equation, most especially VM's (which i personally detest). SYSM-2 seems to require a lot less running around and balancing things.
For the most part I disagree. You can't just look at either SYSM=2, or SYSM=3 "on it's own" when looking at the overall effect on the picture, IMO. You have to take all the other settings into account which effect, or can "control" various factors involving image processing/EE or "sharpness" as well ....... Now, from what I've seen I do think it may be a bit more difficult to "fine tune" MID5 controls such as MHYE/MHCE for SYSM=3 for best results with any given scan rate/input than is the case with SYSM=2. Otherwise, I think the "running around" and balancing things is just as important for SYSM=2 as it is for SYSM=3 in my experience ....
As for VM, I've found subtly "configuring" the VM parameters per Ken Tech's recommendations to be quite benefical. You might be surprised at just how "subtle", and "minimal" VM IS with P2170-3 VM settings of VML=2(for "clearedge VM=LOW" in User menu), and VMCR~VMDL = 0-3-0-6, or say, 0-3-0-8 actually are compared to VM=OFF .... It's a far cry from the "factory" setup, and, I'd certianly want VM "off" if the factory VM settings were my only other choice ...
The last remaining sharpness setting in the SM i have is a SHAP-6 setting. Anything lower than that makes the image a touch too too soft. Still the image is plenty sharp.
Keep in mind, 2103-1/SHAP does not effect 480p, 720p or 1080i -- those signal paths don't use the 2103cxa chip. It does effect SD that uses the DRC processing -There are seperate columns for SHAP, allowing for different settings for RF(NTSC SD) CV/YC(NTSC SD), V5/V6(480i, such as from DVD), HDMI(480i), and ATSC(480i digital from internal ATSC/QAM tuner).
In my case, 2103-1/SHAP=6 certianly seems WAY High for my set, I wouldn't use anything higher than SHAP="1" --- Ok, I've thought of wanting to use "2" occasionally - but rarely. Anything above "1" is just too much and is too "scratchy" looking, IMO. The exception being for my Right Twin-view window via 2103-2/SHAP, which I have set to "4"(RF) or "5"(CV/YC) as for some reason, the right twinview window is "blurrier" than the left, which is controlled(where applicable for SD) by the 2103-1 settings. My best guess would be, perhaps it involves something different going on with the 2nd tuner's alignment at the factory, or different signal paths used for the 2nd NTSC tuner/rerouting CV/YC through it/etc ...
The appropriate MID5 column settings can be tuned for "better", and much more "subtle" and pleasing results than using "SHAP=6" for any given "SD" input/scan rate/etc, IMO. Also, I'd recommend checking out Post 1137
for excellent info on "tuning" the approrpriate 2103-1 controls for excellent results with SD/480i from NTSC, 480i DVD or 480i ATSC ... Just keep in mind, You'll also still need "appropriate" values set up for various 2170P-3 controls/MID5 parameters/columns ...