THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 44 - AVS Forum
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post #1291 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 05:16 PM
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maybe you guys can help me. i have read this thread and i still dont seem to get it much. you can see my original thread here

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...65#post7374665

so what exactly do i need to change? i am pretty computer savy which is why i am fustrated that i have a hard time understanding this
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post #1292 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 06:20 PM
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You should PM KenTech this info, you probably get more info that way on the exact items to adjust.

Matt~
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post #1293 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irhxcbcziuzxs View Post

http://photobucket.com/albums/y158/i...t=IMG_0004.jpg

see how the cars black blends in with the back ground, this was from page four
the pictures ive seen of oblivion are lighter than that.

i hear that people are having darkness problem with burnout however.. but i dont believe they are that bad.. not sure though

Hrm it doesn't look quite that dark on my TV but did your camera exaggerate the black crush any? (loss of detail in dark areas) Mine sure did at first ,I had to fiddle with the cameras manual settings in order to make the subtle dark blue highlights on the wall show up in my shots (I could easily see the blue in person), I also had to crank up my TV's brightness to 40 (burnout doesnt have it's own brightness adjustment) but luckily the black levels didn't suffer.

I tried the same test on my PC CRT (Sony FW900) with my 360 connected via VGA cable and the results were pretty close ,The FW900 does reveal more shadow detail but Im not sure if we can get our XBR960's to the same level in this area or not (without sacrificing black levels) , VGA is known to be brighter than component when it comes to Xbox360 so that might be the whole reason for the added detail.

IMO Burnout is just dark game at times, Period ..as well as other Xbox360 games,It seems like 360's Component output is tweaked for inherently brighter TV's such as LCDs. I havent noticed this problem with my other consoles (gamecube / ps2 / xbox 1)

I guess whats making matters worse is the fact Sony CRTs are known to crush blacks out of the box.

Heres a link to the pics: Click
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post #1294 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 07:39 PM
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Could be you need to adjust the BLK setting in section 2170P-4 (it's right after the GAMM settings), it's hard to decide what to set this at. You can tell a big differenece in having it set to 1 as opposed to it being set at 3, I think at the least it should be at 1 to avoid the image looking washed out. I also have a 360 and Oblivion, also it depends on what scan mode you're playing the game in. 1080i seems to be a bit darker than 720p, so try playing around with that as well. Best bet is that your BLK setting is probably at 3, causing the black crush try lowering to 2 or 1.
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post #1295 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 07:48 PM
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What's your SBRT setting at? try 29 instead since it's a good compromise between shadow detail and black level.
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post #1296 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingMatt27 View Post

Your brightness is too low then since the car should stand out from the background not blend in with it.

Have you tried turning the ingame brightness in the game up?

there is no in game brightness.
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post #1297 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

Hrm it doesn't look quite that dark on my TV but did your camera exaggerate the black crush any? (loss of detail in dark areas) Mine sure did at first ,I had to fiddle with the cameras manual settings in order to make the subtle dark blue highlights on the wall show up in my shots (I could easily see the blue in person), I also had to crank up my TV's brightness to 40 (burnout doesnt have it's own brightness adjustment) but luckily the black levels didn't suffer.

I tried the same test on my PC CRT (Sony FW900) with my 360 connected via VGA cable and the results were pretty close ,The FW900 does reveal more shadow detail but Im not sure if we can get our XBR960's to the same level in this area or not (without sacrificing black levels) , VGA is known to be brighter than component when it comes to Xbox360 so that might be the whole reason for the added detail.

IMO Burnout is just dark game at times, Period ..as well as other Xbox360 games,It seems like 360's Component output is tweaked for inherently brighter TV's such as LCDs. I havent noticed this problem with my other consoles (gamecube / ps2 / xbox 1)

I guess whats making matters worse is the fact Sony CRTs are known to crush blacks out of the box.

Heres a link to the pics: Click

its close though, do you have parts on the map where you cant see anything at all? look through my other last few pages for more burnout pics, see back a page...
i dont believe the camera made it anyworse, its how it looks on my tv, my blacks seem darker than yours, but yours seem to crush as well.
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post #1298 of 2962 Old 03-26-2006, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingMatt27 View Post

What's your SBRT setting at? try 29 instead since it's a good compromise between shadow detail and black level.

SBRT is 31
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post #1299 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 10:59 AM
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I will second or third the request for a reprint of the common service menu items that can be tweaked.

I'm about to do my 34XS955. I've gone through this thread and written a lot down, but it's a jumbled mess. A nice clean post of values would be cool.
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post #1300 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 11:11 AM
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Maybe it's possible you have a bad set of component cables? It could be..you know it's not uncommon to have cables that are faulty right out of the box.

Why don't you buy another pair from a good place with a good return policy, and if you don't see an improvement then you can take the cables back and get a full refund.

what do you got to lose?

Also the game could be dark intentionatly, i'm not sure since i don't own an xbox360 yet but when i do i'll post pics too and compare it to yours and see if your tv really does have a problem.
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post #1301 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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BY REQUEST, A FEW CURRENT SETTINGS

I've decided to respond to this PM publicly, since some of these values might answer questions for other folks as well. Please heed my warning here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daltonlanny (via PM) View Post

The settings I am most interested in are:

SHAP, SHFO, PREO, SSMD, PPHA = See posts #1137 and #1168. Some of these must be "tuned" for your TV.

YOF = as delivered. Recommend not tinkering with this.
CBOF = depends on input and video mode (see data chart).
Personal examples of YOF-CBOF-CROF:
1080i from tuner = 7-50-51. 720p from tuner = 7-51-52. 480i (digital) = 15-44-42.

SBRT = 29
RDRV = 43, GDRV = 28, BDRV = 23
RCUT = 46, GCUT = 21, BCUT = 18
The charts that make this easier to comprehend are in post #892. Further details are in post #896.

UBOF = Depends on input. I set all video modes the same. Ranges from 3 (a JVC VCR via S-video) to 5 (HD tuner). RF/480i is 4 (analog cable). 1 increment here = 2 or 3 clicks of SBRT.

SYSM = Not relevant without considering whole image-processig group of 2170P-3 and MID5. See post #1138 for personal examples.

VM SETTINGS = See post #1171.

RYR,RYB,GYR,GYB = 14-14-6-4. Good compromise among the different inputs, using both DVD calibration disks over V5 and the built-in test patterns.

GAMMA,GAMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB:
I have set gamma to max for all picture modes, except Movie, which I turn to when program material is too murky and dark for my tastes. The settings are:
GAMM = 0 for all inputs and picture modes, except Movie.
GAMM = 1 for Movie for all inputs.
Then, for GAMM = 0, GAMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB = 0-0-0-0
For GAMM = 1, GAMS,GAMR,GAMG,GAMB = 0-3-3-3
You can increase the gamma reduction for Movie (lightening mid-tones) by changing GAMR~GAMB to 4 or 5. Leave GAMS = 0. Remember that increasing GAMR~GAMB decreases display gamma, lightening mid-tones relative to black and white.

BLK = 0 for all picture modes and all video modes. This removes *all* automatic black-level and contrast manipulation by the TV. You could confine it to one picture mode, if you wish. I have no use for it for anything.

RELATED: With BLK set to 0, go to 2103-1 #24 and 25 (ATPD and DCTR), and set them to 0.

I hope this helps.
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post #1302 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 11:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingMatt27 View Post

What's your SBRT setting at? try 29 instead since it's a good compromise between shadow detail and black level.

This is only for *your* TV, Matt. There is no "correct" setting for SRBT. You can advise that someone "increase SBRT by a couple clicks" or similar, but specifying an exact number is pointless. There are many combinations of SBRT and _CUT that are all perfectly satisfactory. It's *changes* to these parameters that matter.

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post #1303 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoloTheRomeo View Post

Could be you need to adjust the BLK setting in section 2170P-4 (it's right after the GAMM settings), it's hard to decide what to set this at. You can tell a big differenece in having it set to 1 as opposed to it being set at 3, I think at the least it should be at 1 to avoid the image looking washed out. I also have a 360 and Oblivion, also it depends on what scan mode you're playing the game in. 1080i seems to be a bit darker than 720p, so try playing around with that as well. Best bet is that your BLK setting is probably at 3, causing the black crush try lowering to 2 or 1.

anyone else reccomend this
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post #1304 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingMatt27 View Post

Maybe it's possible you have a bad set of component cables? It could be..you know it's not uncommon to have cables that are faulty right out of the box.

Why don't you buy another pair from a good place with a good return policy, and if you don't see an improvement then you can take the cables back and get a full refund.

what do you got to lose?

Also the game could be dark intentionatly, i'm not sure since i don't own an xbox360 yet but when i do i'll post pics too and compare it to yours and see if your tv really does have a problem.

it is only on my xbox, tv.. ps2.. all fine. I think, maybe i just think they are ok.. im going to go through dve again.. i did it with sliders last time
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post #1305 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

This is only for *your* TV, Matt. There is no "correct" setting for SRBT. You can advise that someone "increase SBRT by a couple clicks" or similar, but specifying an exact number is pointless. There are many combinations of SBRT and _CUT that are all perfectly satisfactory. It's *changes* to these parameters that matter.

Thanks i settled on 29 last night, 28 seemed a bit on the darker side but 29 seems to be more better and pleasing to the eye, it really gives you that 3-D look and makes images POP off the screen.
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post #1306 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoloTheRomeo View Post

Could be you need to adjust the BLK setting in section 2170P-4 (it's right after the GAMM settings), it's hard to decide what to set this at.

At anything above 0, BLK enables automatic black level and/or automatic contrast ("Dynamic Picture"). BLK=0 disables it. In addiotion to that, with BLK set to 0, go to 2103-1 #24 and 25 (ATPD and DCTR), and set them also to 0. If you want black level and contrast to be solely under your control with the Brightness and Picture settings, set BLK to zero, as above.

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post #1307 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 05:17 PM
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I noticed recently that when I turn on my 30XS955, everthing is red for second or two, then corrects itself. It never did this before. Should I be worried that a problem is developing? Glitches like this worry me, especially since this set cannot be replaced (at least for much longer).
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post #1308 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I noticed recently that when I turn on my 30XS955, everthing is red for second or two, then corrects itself. It never did this before.

Are you sure it just started doing this? Whether you notice it will depend on what the program material is when it first comes on.

My set is completely weird for the first 2-3 seconds, too bright, blurry, high black level -- then it calms down and is perfectly watchable after a minute or so. A restart after 15-20 minutes guarantees a new warm "lock-in."

When the CRT's heaters first come on and the various control voltages haven't settled down yet, it's RGB anarchy! I presume it's okay after a few minutes, right?

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post #1309 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

At anything above 0, BLK enables automatic black level and/or automatic contrast ("Dynamic Picture"). BLK=0 disables it. In addiotion to that, with BLK set to 0, go to 2103-1 #24 and 25 (ATPD and DCTR), and set them also to 0. If you want black level and contrast to be solely under your control with the Brightness and Picture settings, set BLK to zero, as above.

I totally agree when it comes to different viewing material, but when it comes to gaming BLK at 0 can look washed out at times.
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post #1310 of 2962 Old 03-27-2006, 11:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoloTheRomeo View Post

I totally agree when it comes to different viewing material, but when it comes to gaming BLK at 0 can look washed out at times.

But then you can probably fix this in 2170P-3: UBOF for black level, UCOF for color intensity, and (if needed) UHOF for hue. A separate value will be stored for your gaming if it's a separate video mode from the others, and one value per picture mode, too.

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post #1311 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 05:06 AM
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Thank you KenTech!
You are the man!
This makes everything so much easier and up to date, without have to dig back through all those posts.
Great job!
Lanny
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post #1312 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 06:24 AM
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Here's a rather obvious (or maybe not so obvious) fix for black crush. Just drop the contrast down 5 or so clicks, or until the picture appears too dark. Then increase brightness by roughly the same number of clicks. DON'T do this in the service menu, just use one of the picture modes.

By doing this I was able to bring out a lot of detail in dark areas (like dark suits) that were previously getting crushed. It might be worth a try if some particular game is too dark to be playable.

And yeah, I know this messes up the proper black and white levels, and probably other settings as well. The picture appears "flatter" after you do this. But it does bring out more detail in dark areas where there was none before.
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post #1313 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Are you sure it just started doing this? Whether you notice it will depend on what the program material is when it first comes on.

I'm sure it just started doing it. I have tried it with no programming connected, and it still does it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

My set is completely weird for the first 2-3 seconds, too bright, blurry, high black level -- then it calms down and is perfectly watchable after a minute or so. A restart after 15-20 minutes guarantees a new warm "lock-in."

When the CRT's heaters first come on and the various control voltages haven't settled down yet, it's RGB anarchy! I presume it's okay after a few minutes, right?

Actually, it's OK just after a second or two. It's almost as if there seems to be a delay for Green and Blue guns to come on....the red gun starts up a second or two before the others maybe??? Weird.
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post #1314 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 09:25 AM
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Ken,

I went through and gave your settings another look with my 57" RP CRT display. My ISF technician has already calibrated grayscale perfectly. However for color-decoding I changed over from 13-15-5-3 (what he thought was best) to 14-14-6-4. This is not what i officially calibrated it to, this was just a personal alternative to something so closely pinpointed to begin with. The latter settings resembles the colors of film the closest for me. Every film does have a different pallate i understand, but there is still that uniform balance of colors recognizeable in every color film.

Just to give you feedback on your sharp settings for my type of set: I went through and tried out your VM/Mide settings for my display, again. I have always been under the impression that minimum to zero mide/VM is best - leaving "sharpness" to do the job alone. Everything else just happens to match the other settings you (and others) have - PROV, LTMD etc. I leave black-level/grayscale alone, since the calibrator set all that perfectly, and I don't have the resources anyway to properly adjust all of those interrelated settings.

Getting things just right on a 57" screen (sitting 9 feet away) is more of a challenge since the screen takes up so much of your sight. Not only do you want the screen to look "right," but you need it to look right for your eyes as well (again, a very big screen).

480P is what I'm most interested in since that's what i mostly watch at this point. For my display, PREO, SHAP etc. are included in the 480P/component image. I'm not sure why, but i just assume that different displays have different outcomes. I set SHAP to either 0 or 1, leaving PREO and SHOF at zero (turning these on literally hurt my eyes).

For SYSM-2, I mimicked the "480i" settings you included Ken - including the exact MIDE column and VM settings. The results truly create an amazing picture, especially with the Froudja-chip/XP-30 I have. In my opinion the image rivals various plasma screens I have seen. I then tried this all out switching over to the SYSM-3 patterns, and as you've stated on many occassions, the difference is VERY subtle.

Again, the most important aspect on screens this large, to me, is getting the image at a comfortable level for you to see. But I imagine that getting sharpness "correct" without ringing/overshoot should mirror the above concern. Too much VM etc. not only doesn't look right, but also does a number on your eyes. But just the right amount (Ken's setting) seems to be just at the right level. My calibrator already did a hell of a job with the focus, as you can actually make out the scan lines the image is so tight.

He described how he set the brightness about a touch above a typical movie screen, as 2 x screen-width viewing distance calls for the need for a brighter screen. Gammas, in an effort to balance the grayscale were set on 1 and 3 for GAMG and GAMB respectively. But I digress....

My main focus (so to speak) is to make this display resemble an actual movie screen in its compatibility with vision. I think the main difference between theater/proj. screens and my display, is that my screen has a sweet spot - meaning the picture will be most intense/bright from the middle, as opposed to uniform all around. The image actually is much more comfortable to view when you're somewhat off of the sweet spot, but this really should not have to be like this. I leave contrast centered, as it really doesn't have much effect on the pictures overall intensity as you raise and lower it. Other settings seem to affect the image's overall intensity more so than contrast/picture. I understand "intensity" isn't a technical word, but it's all i have to describe how i perceive the image.

My display has been reviewed as a particularly good model. The image is one of the best I've seen for CRT. It is exceptionally clear, and VERY well-focused now. I would almost say that I find the image to be too clear. This is one of the reasons why such a clear and vibrant image has the potential to give your eyes such a workout, and it's been a challenge working with that.

Again, my black levels and color are set by ISF, and I don't plan on changing these. I seem to prefer the SYSM-2 more, and would need to use those accompanying values. I will experiment more with these. On first glance, it does look good, but it will need some getting used to. It seems that so many well-informed people here recomend that this is a good method for sharpness, that i should give them some belief. As long as true source details isn't being "covered up" then I think it's worth trying out more.
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post #1315 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Napoleon, I appreciate the extensive feedback your whole message. Who knew that so much applicable to my direct-view set would apply to a rear-projection set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D View Post

My display has been reviewed as a particularly good model. The image is one of the best I've seen for CRT. It is exceptionally clear, and VERY well-focused now. I would almost say that I find the image to be too clear. This is one of the reasons why such a clear and vibrant image has the potential to give your eyes such a workout, and it's been a challenge working with that.

I confess I don't quite understand this. The ultimate in clarity would be reality, and I don't think of that as a "challenge." When I look an amazing, well-broadcast picture, and I have the set properly adjusted for it, my eyes say that is approaching reality in its crdebility -- I can see fabric and skin texture, for example, not obvious in *lots* of broadcast program material and a goodly number of DVDs. My eyes like it indefinitely!

On the other hand, if I exaggerate sharpness, I find myself seduced into liking it for a short time, and then it looks false after a while. The word "scratchy" comes to mind. This works for a second-rate SD local-news program, say, viewed from far away, since it fools the eye into thinking it's almost right. But for really good program material, the "pleasures" of oversharpening are short-lived, and I go for more conservative settings.

This is why I have gravitated to the SYSM=3 settings I have listed: they seem, properly tuned, more realistic.

Please don't neglect the potential role of the MID5 filters, as they can accomplish things not possible with the Sharpness control and the settings in 2170P-3. Most notably, MHYE with values of 1-7 (with MHYL=3, MHYO=0) enhances only the very finest details and textures in HD and fine DVD sources, and you should consider watching a high-quality source while experimenting a bit. At some setting, you might find you achieve a "balance" with other available sharpness enhancements that is very symbiotic. Nothing else replaces the MHYE filter. (But if MHYO=1, its scope of action starts to creep downward into the video frequencies and coarser details also affected by other filters, such as 2170P-3/SHF0 and SYSM=2 + the Sharpness slider. Nonetheless, I find it indispensable for SD broadcast.)

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post #1316 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

But then you can probably fix this in 2170P-3: UBOF for black level, UCOF for color intensity, and (if needed) UHOF for hue. A separate value will be stored for your gaming if it's a separate video mode from the others, and one value per picture mode, too.

That does make sense, and I played a game of Oblivion last night with BLK at 0 and it looked pretty good. One question is what Gamma settings do you recommend? I was maxing all mine out by setting GAMM=3 GAMS=8 and GAMR, GAMG and GAMB at 15 (it was at default 12, but I noticed that when maxed out the images have more dimension it seems to me anyway), the reason I was maxing out was because I had set UBOF to 3 so it didn't look washed out. If I change UCOF and UHOF in the service menu, will I also have to readjust the color and hue settings in the user menu using the Avia and or DVE DVD?

Now that I have sat back and looked at it the BLK at 0 does make sense, I think it looked washed out before because I had UBOF maxed out at one time. If I do adjust the UCOF and UHOF how should I go about doing it?
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post #1317 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 01:36 PM
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Sorry if I am being a nusence, but I have a question. When I have a crosshatch pattern on my tv the vertical lines are close together in the middle and get further apart towards the sides.

I have pulled in as much of the over scan as possible. I just want to know if there is a way to expand the middle or something to even out the lines without losing any of the picture on the sides. Any help would be appreciated.
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post #1318 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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When I have a crosshatch pattern on my tv the vertical lines are close together in the middle and get further apart towards the sides. I have pulled in as much of the over scan as possible. I just want to know if there is a way to expand the middle or something to even out the lines without losing any of the picture on the sides.

Yes. I recently corrected this problem for myself. Go into service mode, and adjust 2170D-2 #3, SLIN. You may have to touch up overscan and centering a little with HSIZ and HPOS.

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post #1319 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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One question is what Gamma settings do you recommend? I was maxing all mine out by setting GAMM=3 GAMS=8 and GAMR, GAMG and GAMB at 15 (it was at default 12, but I noticed that when maxed out the images have more dimension it seems to me anyway), the reason I was maxing out was because I had set UBOF to 3 so it didn't look washed out. If I change UCOF and UHOF in the service menu, will I also have to readjust the color and hue settings in the user menu using the Avia and or DVE DVD?

See message #1302, above. Your "maxing out" of gamma is a bad idea, and it won't fix a "washed out" look the right way. It results in a way-screwy gamma on the screen (very low).

UBOF, UHOF, and UCOF *add* to the Brightness (black level), Hue, and Color settings in the user menu, but they can be set per video mode and picture mode. Leave the user-menu settings alone at your usual positions for normal TV viewing, and use UBOF, UHOF (probably not useful), and UCOF (more useful) to get the "look" you want when your user-menu settings are in their normal positions and you switch to gaming. Make sure that your gaming device isn't using one of the inputs also used by another device, or you will screw up the color for that device too. Example: You have a DVD player plugged into V5 (component) and your gamer plugged into V6 (also component). There's only *one* 2170P-3 settings for those two inputs together per picture mode (Vivid, Movie, etc.)

I don't use my TV for gaming, so I can't say anything more specific.

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post #1320 of 2962 Old 03-28-2006, 04:29 PM
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Wow, you tackled my problem with only 2 sentences. Amazing.
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