THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 5 - AVS Forum
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post #121 of 2962 Old 06-13-2005, 01:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

The DVI port doesn't seem to work quite like that, probably because it's designed to input high-def video which has already been 1.25 pre-corrected before it arrives

But has it? Maybe it is entirely at the whim of the technical production folks. Much HD seems way too dark in the mid-tones for the "pro" gamma = 2.45 setting, even in evening lighting, and I am motivated to switch to the 2.2 setting I have arranged. (The ABC "Lost" example I mentioned.) At this point, I have given up on predicting this, and it is why I believe in the easy availability of a gamma adjustment.

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post #122 of 2962 Old 06-13-2005, 06:10 PM
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One thing I will input here is, I played golf one day with a guy that worked for the color lab that did the postproduction HD processing of ABC's Alias. I was told that the show was intentionally dark. I don't know why they want to do that, but they do. Many others seem off also, NCIS always seemed dark and over saturated with color. When I start to question my calibration settings, I switch to HDNET and every thing goes back to the calibrated settings and looks great. I guess it's just Artistic

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post #123 of 2962 Old 06-14-2005, 09:25 AM
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Anything is possible. It's quite possible that the broadcasters are mucking things up a bit. Maybe PBS is only using .45 correction on their content, for example, and that's why their broadcasts seem brighter and need a darker gamma setting on the TV. Or maybe some stations are clipping their palettes and others aren't. When it comes to the world of broadcasting I suppose it's anybody's guess.

I've found pretty good consistency among DVDs though. Ie, the well-authored ones all seem to work more or less correctly with about the same gamma adjustment on the TV. The only noteworthy exceptions to this that I've found are some old telecasts, and bargain DVDs transfered from older NTSC material which look brighter, and probably used the .4 to .45 correction.

I'm not sure if a reliable baseline can be established from the HD broadcasts. But it should be possible for DVDs. And if the HD is being broadcast correctly it should be using the same gamma as DVDs. If it's not, then they're deviating from the standard (which is quite possible).

If I could figure out what's happening with the gamma on the memory stick, then I could probably use that to establish a baseline gamma for DVDs. If RGB=127 looks like a 50% neutral grey on the memory stick, then I think either you may have the contrast set rather low on your TV, or the memory stick could be applying a correction to the JPEG files to darken them up a bit for better viewing on a TV, similar to the undercorrection used in video cameras. JPEG and other computer-based images will look unnaturally bright on a TV screen unless there's a correction applied to them somewhere along line. This correction doesn't have to be occuring in the TV btw. There could be a color-conversion when files are transfered to the stick.

IAC, here's what I'd suggest to try to resolve this. First fix your ambient light in stone, and make it bright enough so that phosphor lag on the CRT isn't distracting. Then adjust the white level (Picture) on your TV so the RGB=127 grey bars on the memory stick look like a perfectly neutral grey to your eye, with a density exactly between the white and the black bars. As you make this contrast adjustment also insure that the black level (Brightness) is set correctly on the TV as well. Black level will drift on the Sonys as you change the white level/contrast.

Once you're satisfied that the RGB=127 grey is as neutral as it can be, and your black level is also correctly set, then watch some good DVDs, using a player with the same black level as the memory stick (probably 0-IRE). And make sure the player is in its standard picture configuration and applying no add'l enhancement of its own. Here are a few DVDs I'd recommend:

Star Wars ANH
Star Wars AOTC
Star Wars ESB
Underworld
Sky Captain & the World of Tommorrow
Gladiator
Appleseed
An American Werewolf in London
Hulk
Jurassic Park III
Shrek 1 & 2
Chronicles of Riddick
Alien (the 2003 edition)
Titan AE
Ghosts of Mars
The Incredibles

I'm going by memory here, but all of the above seemed to me to have about the same gamma correction. THX mastered DVDs probably have the most consistent gamma correction across the board.

How do they look? (Try to ignore any issues with phosphor lag, internal reflections, etc. and focus on just just the gamma curve of the picture). Do the midtones seem a little overpowering, not bright enough or do they look just right? They should all leave you with the same impression. Either too dark, too bright, or just about right.

If they all look just about right, then the memory stick could perhaps be tweaking the gamma on your JPEG files to approximate the pre-corrected video of other inputs. If they look too dark, then that may mean there's no correction on the memory stick.

[Edited to better reflect the more updated info on gamma in Post #343.]

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post #124 of 2962 Old 06-14-2005, 11:47 AM
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Another tip that you may or may not have run across yet... The DVI input on some (or maybe all) of these Sony TVs has a different color saturation than the analog inputs. This is something that can be identified using the color decoder tests and fixed by making an adjustment to 2170P-4/SCOL. Raising SCOL 5 units higher for DVI than the analog inputs fixed the problem on my TV. YMMV though.

Since the memory stick is also a digital input it could have a different saturation than the analog inputs as well. Comparing the color decoder patterns on a component input to the memory stick should confirm or deny this.

FWIW, the procedures I used to identify and make this correction for DVI are in post #2 and post #19 of this other thread. A similar approach may also work for the memory stick.

DO NOT SIMPLY TRANSCRIBE THE VALUES SHOWN IN THESE POSTS FOR YOUR OWN TV! I'm using a different signal path and color offsets for my DVI input than most TVs, so the values shown will probably not work exactly right for your TV. If you follow the procedures outlined though, you should be able to determine the correct adjustments for your own TV. (Use any other info in the links above entirely at your own peril btw.)

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post #125 of 2962 Old 06-15-2005, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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ADU, in response to several of your points:
Quote:


Neither is even close to white or off-white.
Hmm... if that's really the case, then I suspect the memory stick may indeed have it's own built-in correction, to conform your computer-created JPEGs more closely to 1.25-corrected video.

To clarify, I know what "50%" gray looks like in a digital image, and I mean what I see for a *digital brightness* of 50%, not what a light-meter would measure as 50% of white (minus-one f-stop). Your 50% = 127 gray bar = a tone of gray on my calibrated computer monitor = the same tone on the TV thru memory stick, gamma set to 2.2

Now I have run a test where I have created an orthodox DVD with still images precisely derived from my existing test patters, including the "current-gamma" pattern. When I play that on my DVD player, adjusting for a correct black level, the measured gamma is -- guess what? -- 2.2. I.e. there seems to be no change in gamma between MS patterns and one fed in thru the DVD player.

Again, unless there is definite proof, and the above seems not to show any, I have to believe that there is no manipulation of gamma among the different analog inputs, MS, and ATSC tuner. (HDMI not tested.) As far as I can tell, the gamma exhibited by this set is totally orthodox for all inputs, being about 2.45 native, and it can be decreased by increasing the settings for GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB above 0. Further hand-wringing isn't going to reveal anything new. The display of known DVD movies is totally satisfactory, even extraordinary! I have seen Shrek-1, Monsters, Inc, and several other on your list, plus the restaurant scene on DVE. All are gorgeous! Digital photos whose characteristics I know well from having prepared them are gorgeous. What more can I say? The tones are correctly rendered.

Rather than agonize over whether a certain source or broadcast has used this ot that compensation, I adjust things until the picture is as good as it's going to be, and then I enjoy the show. I admit to being quite anal about these things, but, Jeez, at some point one has to shoot the technician and get on with the show! (or take a pill, have a glass of wine, whatever works . . .)
Quote:


I've found pretty good consistency among DVDs though. Ie, the well-authored ones all seem to work more or less correctly with about the same gamma adjustment on the TV.

My experience, too. Generally, I'm impressed.
Quote:


If I could figure out what's happening with the gamma on the memory stick, then I could probably use that to establish a baseline gamma for DVDs. If RGB=127 looks like a 50% neutral grey on the memory stick, then either you've got the contrast set exceptionally low on your TV, or the memory stick is applying a correction to the JPEG files to darken them up a bit for better viewing on a TV, similar to the undercorrection used in video cameras.

No, no! I think you are reading too much into this, and that your definition of 50% isn't the same as mine. The above recent test appears to show that MS is a decent baseline for my DVD-thru-component connection, and I now think it is good for HD broadcast, too, given the way the set is wired.
Quote:


JPEG and other computer-based images will look unnaturally bright on a TV screen unless there's a correction applied to them somewhere along line.

Well, but that would be the overall correction of gamma = 2.2, which matches pretty much a Windows computer. Jpegs on MS appear quite normal, straight from the camera (sRGB colorspace, gamma = 2.2).
Quote:


There could be a color-conversion when files are transfered to the stick.

Not any more than if the image is stored on a hard drive. The digital file is just *stored,* not modified.
Quote:


Since the memory stick is also a digital input it could have a different saturation than the analog inputs as well. Comparing the color decoder patterns on a component input to the memory stick should confirm or deny this.

One of the MS patterns I use is the same as the DVE color-setup: six basic color blocks at 75% surrounded by 75% gray. The MS calibration is *slightly* different from one done for DVD -- but the latter adds an entire DVD player into the mix. HD broadcast seem to have a slight red push when I use the DVD's color setup, and perfect when I use the MS color setup. I'm trusting the MS setup for now. (I calibrated "Default" for MS, and "Monitor" for DVD.) The color level (saturation) and Hue are identical to the DVD player.

I have no way of evaluating the HDMI input at this time and it currently plays no part in my use of the TV. So I'm saving your comments on this for the future reference, thanks!

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post #126 of 2962 Old 06-16-2005, 04:55 PM
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Not that this will necessarily have any bearing on anything, but I used the gamma pattern from post #29 (actually I created my own pattern using the same values with a little larger swatches, attached at the bottom) to check the gamma on my DVI port, and it seems pretty close to 2.2 (This is in Pro picture mode with GAMMA at 0 in the service menu). The 2.27 swatch is probably closest, though maybe a hair brighter, so it's probably in the neighborhood of 2.25 or 2.26. (2.44 is noticeably brighter and not really in the ballpark.)

One thing I noticed while doing some more reading on gamma is the black level can very easily skew the results. If it's set too high it'll produce a lower gamma reading, and if it's set to low it'll produce a higher reading. [Edit: white level and black level "enhancements" on the TV could similarly skew the results.]

FWIW, the way I set black level for my DVI input is by comparing an RGB=0 image to a 0-voltage area of the screen. This is pretty easy on my TV because its configured with a "fixed height" aspect ratio smaller than the screen. Ie, the raster is scaled down in the vertical axis to a 2.35AR (not somethin I'd really recommend to others, especially those concerned about burn-in.) So there's 0-voltage above and below the picture. This black level adjustment was done in the normal ambient light used for viewing btw, not with all the lights turned off.
LL

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post #127 of 2962 Old 06-16-2005, 07:12 PM
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Quote:


To clarify, I know what "50%" gray looks like in a digital image, and I mean what I see for a *digital brightness* of 50%, not what a light-meter would measure as 50% of white (minus-one f-stop). Your 50% = 127 gray bar = a tone of gray on my calibrated computer monitor = the same tone on the TV thru memory stick, gamma set to 2.2

I guess I'm not referring to "digital brightness" then. What I'm really interested in is the perceived brightness. Ie, whether it looks like a neutral grey to your eye on the TV (forgettin how it looks on a computer monitor), and appears to have a brightness/density exactly midway between the black and white. RGB=127 probably shouldn't look neutral on a TV unless it's gamma is too high (ie midtones too dark), or contrast is too low, or the gamma of that input is being manipulated in some special way. On a computer monitor, in brighter ambient light... yes, then it should look neutral. On a TV though I think it should look lighter. Or at least I think that's pretty much what the whole simultaneous contrast/surround effect/undercorrection thing is all about. Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up though, because it just seems to be creating unnecessary confusion.
Quote:


Now I have run a test where I have created an orthodox DVD with still images precisely derived from my existing test patters, including the "current-gamma" pattern. When I play that on my DVD player, adjusting for a correct black level, the measured gamma is -- guess what? -- 2.2. I.e. there seems to be no change in gamma between MS patterns and one fed in thru the DVD player.

Cool. I wish it hadn't been necessary to adjust black level in between, but I'm guessin that was needed because the DVD player or input had a different black level than the memory stick. IAC, if they give a similar gamma reading, that would probably indicate that there is no special gamma correction occurring on the memory stick.

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post #128 of 2962 Old 06-16-2005, 07:27 PM
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Before we go any further, I wanna stop and say thanks, Ken. I dunno if this discussion has helped anyone else, but it has definitely helped to resolve a few issues in my mind, thanks in part to your input on some of my hand-wringing.

I think you've been doin a great job here.

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post #129 of 2962 Old 06-16-2005, 08:11 PM
 
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Your not the only one he helped, thanks to ken my PQ now looks comparable to the sony's with the super fine pitch tube, and i only have the 34hs420 version
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post #130 of 2962 Old 06-17-2005, 10:14 AM
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Okay I found an article which hopefully will shed a bit more light on some of this gamma stuff we've been discussing.

http://www.w3.org/TR/PNG-GammaAppendix.html

[Edit: The above link (as well as some of Poynton's links) show the typical CRT gamma as "2.5", when it probably should have been "2.2". This more current version of the above document from Post #343 shows more recent and probably more correct values and info than the w3.org link above.]

As this link explains, the objective of the newer ~.5 correction is to produce a picture on your TV with a darker final screen gamma to normalize it for viewing in a "dim surround". (Pretty much what I've been tryin to say all along.)

If maximum depth and contrast for nighttime viewing is your goal (and it may not be in everyone's case), then you generally wouldn't want to brighten the midtones on the TV via the gamma controls in the service menu, because that would tend to undo some of the depth/contrast enhancement in the source.

Recent Sonys (some of them anyway) could be a slightly special case though, as we've discussed, because they seem to have problems at the lower end of the color spectrum due to greater phosphor persistence, etc. So there might (and this is mostly conjecture on my part) possibly be some advantage in dialing up the midtones via the gamma controls in the service menu so the image is more watchable in brighter ambient light.

This is pretty much what the Standard and Vivid modes on the TV are already designed to do. Though I acknowledge that they could also incorporate some other less-desirable enhancements as well.

Always adjust Brightness last btw to insure proper black levels after making any changes to ambient light, contrast, etc.

Phew...I think I need a martini now.

[Edited to reflect the newer gamma info in Post #343.]

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post #131 of 2962 Old 06-17-2005, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Phew...I think I need a martini now.

There, there. Everything is really going to turn out OK. Just rest . . . rest . . . :-)

All calm now? OK. I read the article, and it is very informative for technogeeks like us, but, Dude, I think you are way-obsessing over this gamma thing. If we were calibrating a multi-million-dollar broadcast studio so folks couldn't complain about *our* standards, I would spend more time at this. But I am watching material from the real world of commercial broadcast and DVD, and the end result I want is for it to be displayed so as to bring me the greatest pleasure in my evening-illuminated living room.

This requires that I have *some* control over things like gamma, and I am delighted that this TV allows you to set up a couple of the "picture modes" to differ only in gamma. I get to pick. Again, last night, watching a documentary on the History Channel about Wake Island, I reached desperately for the remote so I could dial in all the gamma I had -- 3.0 would have not been out of line with this ultra-flat video! But that would have made a following HD program, say Lost or CSI/Miami, look hopelessly dark. And so I grab for the remote again . . .

Without some control, there's no hope. It's what *looks right,* and I think you can really get there with this set by tweaking a bit for each program!

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post #132 of 2962 Old 06-17-2005, 03:30 PM
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Damn, I need some more Excedrin !!!
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post #133 of 2962 Old 06-18-2005, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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13.1 - PRECISION FOCUSING: ACCESSING THE INTERNAL FOCUS CONTROL

A precision focus adjustment just isnt possible without making sure the internal focus adjustment is set correctly. Mine wasnt! If the back were off the set, this would be easy. But getting the back off is clumsy and has its damage hazards (breaking the CRT neck being one!) . . . and it turns out not to be necessary.

The main Focus control is a simple cross-slotted screwdriver-adjustable plastic knob at the bottom-right-rear of the set, on the side of the high-voltage transformer, about 4 inside the right-rear corner. It aims horizontally, not to the right or rear, but toward the corner at about 45º. All one needs to do is insert a slender screwdriver thru a small hole in the side of the case to get to it.

(0) Assumptions. You are working on a Sony 36XS955 or a set with similar construction. SInce they use many identical chassis parts and circuit boards, this group likely includes all 4:3 sets and widescreens in the XS955 and XBR960 series, and also the 34XBR910. See (2) below to visually confirm if your set complies. Sony does not reinvent this HV-Focus subsystem for each set, and these instructions may apply to a wide range of sets, including the HS420 and HS510 series as well. Bottom line: If you cant see the Focus knob thru the slots, dont go drilling anywhere! If its in the predicted location, have at it. (The cooling slots may be different.)

(1) Youll need: a 1/8 - 5/32 drill bit and a variable-speed drill; a flashlight; and an appropriate screwdriver 1/8 flat blade with 1/8 shaft of 5 or longer. This longish, skinny screwdriver is not easily available at your usual Home Depot. Try an electronics-supply store (not Radio Shack), and look for Xcelite #R186V, quite common. Use the longer #R188V in a pinch. A plastic GC #8195 or 8987 will work, too, but the obnoxious springiness of the plastic shaft makes fine adjustments sort of sloppy. Youll also need to get your face up against this part of the cabinet, so position the set appropriately.

(2) Examine the attached JPEG images, and survey the landscape for yourself before starting. We are working on the right side, near the rear corner, about 2-3/4 above the very bottom of the case. Fig.1 shows the working area. If you shine a flashlight in and to the left at position #2 and peer closely thru the slots in area #1, youll see the gray plastic hulk of the HV transformer and the Focus control as the *upper* dark-gray adjustment knob, as pictured in Fig.2. The bottom knob (Screen) is sealed with white glop and should NOT be touched. Sonys drawing of the whole transformer is in Fig.3.

(3) Carefully drill a hole thru the right end of the 8th open slot from the bottom, as shown in Fig.1, location #2. Dont go straight in, but aim the drill about 45º from the right, aiming to the left and slightly down. Theres nothing just inside the case to wreck, so dont be paranoid. But go slow and stop when the drill just goes through maybe 1/2. Then continue to operate the drill a bit in-place and move the drill around to enlarge the hole slightly to give the screwdriver some wiggle room. (If the drill bit were chucked into a handle of some sort, this could even be done by hand, as the plastic is soft and you are starting in an existing slot.)

(4) While peering into the case thru the slots in area #1 and shining the light in nearby, insert the screwdriver thru the hole and in about 4, connecting with the end of the slotted knob. (If the shaft binds in the hole, remove it and ream out the hole a bit with the drill.) Insert the blade into one of the slots, and youre in! Your screwdriver has now become the Focus control! You can leave it this way while you work on the set, but push slightly inward when you grab it or itll fall out of the knob. Dont worry about electric sparks and such from inside; theres nothing metal or electrically charged nearby. Just dont be hamfisted about this, and work sensibly. Its really amazingly easy and is a valuable asset to getting the TV adjusted *right.*

 

Part1_Figures.zip 397.119140625k . file

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post #134 of 2962 Old 06-18-2005, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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13.2 - PRECISION FOCUSING: A RECOMMENDED PROCEDURE

This procedure follows Sony's method fairly closely because it works very well and takes into account Sony's wisdom about its own products. In particular, focusing is a balancing act between optimizing fine mid-brightness detail and avoiding blooming (bloating) of the scanning spot in very bright areas. Attached are recommended patterns that can be loaded via memory stick, played from a DVD player as JPEG-on-CD, or displayed via HDMI from a computer. Important: You want to get the vertical pixel-count right: 1080 for MS and maybe computer, and 480 for JPEG (or maybe computer - experiment). I don't know a single pattern on DVE that will work as well as the MS patterns for the fine-pitch CRTs in the XS and XBR sets. HS420 sets and the like will have to use what you can find or use the DVD/CD images.

We're going to work simultaneously with service-mode codes and with the physical Focus control. We'll be using a green-only display to eliminate any confusion possibly caused by misconvergence.

PREPARATION:

(1) With power OFF, insert the screwdriver into the Focus control knob, as described in the first part of this article. Leave it in place. Unless you have very long arms, a small hand-mirror will be a helpful asset. If you knock the screwdriver out of whack while working with it, just get the flashlight and reinsert it. No need to power down and lose whatever youve done up to that point.

(2) Load the test images onto a memory stick if you have that feature, or onto other media, and verify that they display properly. (You can try the patterns on DVE or Avia for white crosshatch and focus. Watch out: I note some of the patterns on DVE are NOT sharp as recorded!)

(3) Put the TV into service mode. Go to 2170D-4 and WRITE DOWN the existing settings for #0-8, QPAM thru DQP.

(4) Display the CrosshatchPlusDots pattern. Set Pro picture mode, Sharpness = 15, Picture = 40, ClearEdge OFF, and adjust Brightness for a very slight glow to the black background (i.e. a normal black level). Go to 2170P-2/#1 RGBS, and set it to 2 for a green display. Use the pattern PlugePlusExtremeGray to help with black level, if necessary.

THE METHOD:

Dynamic focusing of the beam apparently uses two mechanisms. Sony would have us completely disable the Dynamic Focus (DF) mechanism by shorting a pair of contacts on the main deflection board, and then adjust the Dynamic Quadrapole (DQ) settings; but we can't do that. Since the two mechanisms interact almost completely, compensating for each other, we are going to set DF according to suggested defaults from the manual, and proceed with Dynamic Quadrapole Focus adjustments.

(1) Look at the figure Table1_DQPData and at the column for your set. If your existing setting for DF is within 5 of what is listed, leave it alone. Otherwise, set it to the listed number (40 or 36). You can reconsider this later, if need be.

(2) Display the image CrosshatchPlusDots for your set's profile (4:3 or 16:9). Gently grab the Focus-screwdriver, push inward gently, and turn it all the way to the left (counter-clockwise) until it stops. Brace yourself! The display is now completely blurred. Adjust 2170D-4 #8, DQP until vertical line widths at equal distances from center are balanced. I.e. the 8th line to the right of center should be equal in width to the 8th line to the left. You should also note that the dots should look like what is shown in the figure DotShapes. The goal is to achieve good left-right symmetry. (See Note #5, below.)

(3) Turn the screwdriver-Focus control to the right (clockwise) until the screen is approximately focused again. Display the pattern FocusMatrix for your set. Go to 2170D-4 #3 QPDC, and set it to 31. Adjust the screwdriver Focus adjustment for sharpest focus in the *center* of the screen. Turn the control back and forth a bit to see what it does. You'll be choosing a compromise between the black-cloverleaf-on-white and its reverse. When you think you have it just right, stop. (See Note #1.)

(4) Now look at the screen center, and adjust 2170P-4 #3 QPDC for an even better focus. Again, you can increase QPDC and decrease it until you are satisfied - it's not a very sensitive adjustment.

That's the fundamental whole-screen adjustment. Now let's fine-tune the rest of the screen.

(5) Look at the top-most focus pattern and adjust #4 QPDV to see if you can improve on the focus up there. You may end up with QPDV = 63 (max) and it's still not perfect, but them's the breaks! Also check out both top and bottom, and use #5 QPDP (a top/bottom balance adjustment) to make them look about the same. You can keep diddling back and forth until you've got it as good as it gets.

(6) Look at the focus patterns at the middle of the left and right edges of the screen, and adjust #0 QPAM for best focus and #2 QPAP for best balance between left and right. (It's a miracle that the beam is focused at all at these extremes, so don't expect the same clarity as the center!)

(7) Check out the extreme corners, and adjust #1 QPAV for best focus. Just do the best you can.

(8) WRITE the settings (press Mute, then Enter). You should write the settings on paper, too. Depending on what source you used for the pattern, you have to transfer your settings once. According to Sony, there are *two* separate dynamic-focus settings (a) for 1080Vcomp/480Vcomp, which are the vertically compressed modes for 4:3 sets, and (b) Others. While your new settings are still on-screen, you should see if you can find a video source that causes *different* values to appear in 2170D-4. If so, change them to match what you've written down, and WRITE. I can't predict how this will go for sets other than 4:3. But this will cover all bases.

PAUSE FOR A BREATHER. You're done . . . at least in theory. But you can go back through these steps any time. (I would write down what you get each time.) You can also set 2170P-2 #1 RGBS to 7 to get full color back to check out real program material.

Here is an overview of what you've done, now that you've seen the result:

The goal was to minimize the effects of dynamic focusing at the screen center first, then defocus and balance the beam width with DQP. Then you (a) focused the center of the screen with the Focus control and (b) perfected the center focus with the QPDC setting. The rest of the settings just balanced the focus over the extremes of this wide-scan screen; just don't expect the beam (the dots) to be as round or sharp as they are in the center.

WHEN DONE, gently pull out the screwdriver without tweaking the control. Normal color will be restored when you leave service mode by powering off and on again.

NOTES:

(1) The tiny cloverleaf focus pattern incorporates the best of dots and of vertical and horizontal lines into one shape. You can easily see how you have to choose a focus setting halfway between sharpest horizontal and sharpest vertical features. It's not my invention. I just made up the screen presentations.

(2) You can revisit the focus process using a brighter setting of the Picture control or a dimmer one, depending on what you wish to optimize. Fair warning: optimizing less-bright focus may result in ugly blooming on nearly-white subjects, swallowing up black detail and bloating white text out of shape. I used the Picture = 40 setting, and I'm very pleased. Feel free to experiment with whatever Picture setting works best for you.

(3) You can leave steps 5-7 alone and just re-tweak overall focus (Focus control + QPDC). The balance of all the sides and corners shouldn't change. But make judgments based only on the *center* of the screen.

(4) You can use a high-quality HD broadcast of good mixed brightness and contrast, and touch up the Focus control. If you can't use a memory-stick image, this may be the best way to finalize things. Use that hand-mirror!

(5) If you get a large value for DQP, say over 40, try setting DF a bit higher and redoing DQP. These two settings shouldn't differ by a great deal. But don't obsess - it's a very coarse adjustment, and a whole range of DF-DQP combinations are likely satisfactory. They should probably be within 5-8 of each other. I ended up with DF = 36 and DQP = 37.

IMPORTANT: Please call my atention to any mistakes you find here. A personal message is best, and Ill react very promptly.

 

Part2_Figs_Patterns.zip 435.087890625k . file

 

FocusMatrix_4x3_1080.zip 377.583984375k . file

 

FocusMatrix_16x9_1080.zip 374.51171875k . file

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post #135 of 2962 Old 06-24-2005, 05:44 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rholt View Post

I am working with a Sony XBR 960. Here are (what I suspect) are very basic questions.

1) My service menu looks different than the menu enumerated in the Excel spreadsheet that is an attachment earlier in this thread. My service menu looks like it does not have as many items. Also - many of the defaults are different. Is this to be expected?

2) In general - I can follow/match the pattern of categories and items laid out in the Excel spreadsheet. But I can't figure out how the different picture modes (e.g. Pro, Vivid, etc) are reflected. For example - I understand that RYR (in 2170P-4) has a different value for each picture mode - but I don't really see how that is reflected in the menu - I only see one value. I am clearly missing something.

3) I am particularly interested in the SBRT setting. I have had a really issue with the black level - shadows are way to deep. Can someone please help me understand - intuitively - what this setting does. How is it different than simply jacking up the brightness setting in the standard menu.

4) Am I risking my warranty by messing with the SM?

Thanks in advance for any help here. This is a great thread.

Yes kentech, how different is SBRT from just raising the black level in the user menu?

I'm curious because i'm doing what you said and put brightness at 31 and set sbrt to 31 and UBOF to 0.

My SBRT was originally at 15, way too low, but now that i set SBRT to what you said and i can now clearly see the 3 stripes in the pluge patterns.

Now that i did that i have to now lower brightness from the middle setting instead of higher brightness to see the 3 stripes.

It seems that if i set SBRT to 15 and brightness about 6 or 8 nothces up from the middle setting it looks the same as using SBRT at 31 and UBOF at 0 and adjusting brightness downwords now from 31.

Is ther any difference doing whatever vice or versa?
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post #136 of 2962 Old 06-24-2005, 06:17 PM
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Quote:


My SBRT was originally at 15, way too low, but now that i set SBRT to what you said and i can now clearly see the 3 stripes in the pluge patterns.

Now that i did that i have to now lower brightness from the middle setting instead of higher brightness to see the 3 stripes.

It seems that if i set SBRT to 15 and brightness about 6 or 8 nothces up from the middle setting it looks the same as using SBRT at 31 and UBOF at 0 and adjusting brightness downwords now from 31.

Try setting the SBRT a few notches above the 15, say 20 and see how it looks.
the goal here is to get the brightness set with the user control at midpoint (31). Try different values until it is right.

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post #137 of 2962 Old 06-24-2005, 06:50 PM
 
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Ok, ijust wanted to see if their was a difference that's all either using SBRT for brightness or raising the brightness control.
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post #138 of 2962 Old 06-24-2005, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

It seems that if i set SBRT to 15 and brightness about 6 or 8 nothces up from the middle setting it looks the same as using SBRT at 31 and UBOF at 0 and adjusting brightness downwords now from 31.

Is ther any difference doing whatever vice or versa?

I may have mentioned that I ended up with SBRT = 31, but that may not be the setting for your TV. From my article:

"Set your Brightness and Picture sliders with the remote to 31 (mid-scale). Use Digital Video Essentials or Avia DVD, and use a video-PLUGE pattern or video black on the disk as a decent black standard. Change the code 2170P-1 #5-SBRT to set video-black as the barest screen glow. For PLUGE, follow the DVD's instructions."

So I agree with Glen, but with these refinements:

(1) Observed brightness = SBRT setting + Brightness slider + approx. 2X the 2170P-3/UBOF setting. They all add together and compensate for each other, with one notch of UBOF being equivalent to 2 notches of SBRT and Brightness.

(2) Use your highest black-level, reliable, non-broadcast input for calibrating SBRT, say a good DVD player. Set Brightness slider to 31, UBOF for that input to 0, and adjust SBRT so that only *one* bar shows on the PLUGE pattern: The darkest bar and the background should blend together.

(3) Tweak the other inputs and the average broadcast to match using UBOF. If the DVD player turns out to be darker than other inputs, then knock UBOF up 2 or 3 notches, reduce SBRT by 4-6, and try again to balance the other sources with UBOF. The idea is to get the Brightness = 31 to be a suitable starting point for any video source.

(4) See service-data chart to see what input/scan rates different UBOF settings correspond to. E.g. all V1-V3 inputs are the same for a given scan rate (say, 480i vs 480p), and the same is true for V5 and V6. Note that HD-1080 and HD-720 from the ATSC tuner have *different* UBOF settings.

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post #139 of 2962 Old 06-25-2005, 09:40 AM
 
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So let me get this straight...You want me to adjust SBRT untill i see only ONE bar?

1) I thought i was supposed to adjust it untill the blacker than black bar is not visible and the middle bar is visible and the inner bar is bearly visible correct?

2) Should'nt i adjust so that i can only see the middle bar and barely see the most inner bar?

3) Also is UBOF like you said recommended off?

4) I thought the purpose of adjusting SBRT was to give the brightness controll more range is it not?So you just leave it in the middle and ajust SBRT as your brightness correct?

5) Also for gamma, should i just leave the factory settings alone for PRO mode.

6) And when adjusting the color, do i leave it in the middle and instead of using the color filters like you said, which items in the service menu should i use to adjust how much of each individual color is put on the screen besides RYR-GYB.

7) You talked about just using the color guns instead of the filters, after using each color gun do i press muting and then enter to save the guns the way they were before or do i just press the number key for all color guns on?


Thanks for your time.
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post #140 of 2962 Old 06-25-2005, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

So let me get this straight...You want me to adjust SBRT untill i see only ONE bar?

I apologize for probably misleading you. I've forgotten how many bars there are, total. No, you reduce SBRT until the *darkest* bar blends with the background for the room lighting you'll be using for viewing. (I use more than one PLUGE pattern.)
Quote:


1) I thought i was supposed to adjust it untill the blacker than black bar is not visible and the middle bar is visible and the inner bar is bearly visible correct?

Yep, I think you have it correct. But it's that darkest bar that should just disappear no matter how many other bars there are.
Quote:


3) Also is UBOF like you said recommended off?

If you do that for all inputs, you'll be missing out on the ability to balance the black levels among the inputs. UBOF (User Brightness OFfset) is just another black-level adjustment, like SBRT, but it is *video mode* and *input* dependent. See appropriate data chart.
Quote:


4) I thought the purpose of adjusting SBRT was to give the brightness controll more range is it not?So you just leave it in the middle and ajust SBRT as your brightness correct?

Not *range,* but an *offset.* SBRT determines exactly what Brightness setting results in a correct black level, on average. Then you have to tweak it for each program.
Quote:


5) Also for gamma, should i just leave the factory settings alone for PRO mode.

I would. And that gives you maximum gamma and no other brightness/contrast compensations, too.
Quote:


6) And when adjusting the color, do i leave it in the middle and instead of using the color filters like you said, which items in the service menu should i use to adjust how much of each individual color is put on the screen besides RYR-GYB.

Set the Color and Hue sliders to the middle, and then make the adjustments. But don't confuse white/grayscale balance with color decoding. Read my article #03. Note that getting white balance and grayscale just right has *nothing* to do with the color-decoding controls in RYR-GYB. That's a color-"push" issue, and it's handled separately. DVE's calibration pattern works perfedtly fpr a DVD player for Color (amount), Hue, and eliminating color push. Getting grayscale and white right is another whole matter.

I don't remember if I covered this in any article, but the base-settings for Color and Hue are also adjusted in 2170P-3/UCOF and UHOC, and, of course, they are input and video-scan dependent. Allows you to compensate for differences among, say, your cable box, VCR, and DVD player.

To summarize:

(1) Play a calibration DVD in your player. I'll assume DVE.

(2) Select Pro mode, and set Brightness, Color, and Hue sliders to their mid-points.

(3) Display a PLUGE pattern, and adjust SBRT for correct black level. (Ignore UBOF for now.) WRITE the settings.

(4) Display the color-calibration pattern -- those 75% color blocks against 75% gray.

(5) Set 2170P2/RGBS to 1 (blue) and adjust 2170P-3/UCOF for correct color amount and UHOF for correct hue. WRITE the settings.

(6) Then set 2170P-2/RGBS to 4 (red) and adjust 2170P-4/RYR and RYB for no red push. Set RGBS to 2 (green) and adjust GYR and GYB for no green push. Repeat steps (5) and (6) until perfect. (Balance the brightness of all the color blocks for blue, red, and green guns.) WRITE the settings.
Quote:


7) You talked about just using the color guns instead of the filters, after using each color gun do i press muting and then enter to save the guns the way they were before or do i just press the number key for all color guns on?

You don't have to. The color-gun settings of 2170P-2/RGBS are never memorized no matter what you do. It always returns to 7 (all colors) when you recycle power on the TV.

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post #141 of 2962 Old 06-25-2005, 12:16 PM
 
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Ok, thank you for your time

I'll report back on my progress.

Matt~

p.s. after doing those settings for the component input, should i connect my dvd player to the composite inputs and calibrate them too?In other words that's how you calibrate the other inputs correct?

Again thank you for your input, i'm trying to get the best PQ possible!
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post #142 of 2962 Old 06-25-2005, 05:46 PM
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I think you will want to cal composite first, using the directions from KENTECH for setting SBRT, etc. Then component, adjusting UCOF and UBOF as needed.
If you find that you've run out of UBOF (max) on while cal'ing component, you will have to compromise and raise SBRT, off course starting all over again with composite.
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post #143 of 2962 Old 06-26-2005, 11:11 AM
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I have the KV-34HS420 and I followed your advice through the pdf files about coloring. I got:

480p h and v to look much better,
menus (cable box) in 480p and 1080i to look good,
1080i v to look good with very little overscan (no more logos cut off).

BUT

I can not get 1080i h to give me little overscan. I lose about two inches off each side. What happens is this: I can get either the left or right side to be perfect, but then the other side develops what I call a "wraparound" on it.
Can anyone tell me how to eliminate this? Or maybe can you post or e-mail your settings and I can try them out.

Thanks.
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post #144 of 2962 Old 06-26-2005, 09:20 PM
 
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I would leave your overscan alone, it's there for a reason, to hide any faults in the picture that should'nt be there.

Instead of adjusting the size of the picture try adjust the position of the picture instead.

I bet you noticed that now that you have lowered overscan the screen bowes in kind of right?

Mine did the same when i lowered overscan so i just put it back to where it was and the problem was gone.I also noticed that letterboxed material such as movies with 2:35:1 or higher aspect ratios showed larger black bars on the yop and bottom causing the picture to be smaller when i lowered overscan before.

I own the same set as you, and my advice is to just leave the overscan alone, it's there for a reason.Mine was pretty dead on out of the box at 5% so i left it alone.You don't want to go lower than 5% or else you will be seeing things at the corners of the screen that don't belong.

Also Kentech:

I adjusted SBRT to 25,UBOF to 0 and with brightness in the middle like you said and this seems to be the perfect black level.It's perfectly black.Before i had it at 26 and 27 and although i could see the middle bar just barely the image was'nt a perfect black.

Question when setting black level i should barely see the middle bar in the pluge test correct?And if i have black level correct there should be no light in the darkness right?

Just want to make sure i don't have it too low.
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post #145 of 2962 Old 06-27-2005, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

I adjusted SBRT to 25,UBOF to 0 and with brightness in the middle like you said and this seems to be the perfect black level.It's perfectly black.Before i had it at 26 and 27 and although i could see the middle bar just barely the image was'nt a perfect black.

Question when setting black level i should barely see the middle bar in the pluge test correct?And if i have black level correct there should be no light in the darkness right?

Just want to make sure i don't have it too low.

ARRGGHH! Let me say clearly: THERE IS NO ONE PERFECT BLACK LEVEL. No matter what you set as "the" black level, you will be diddling it for individual programs and DVDs. The whole purpose for intially setting a "reasonable" black level for the Brightness slider at its midpoint of 31 is for *convenience.* Obsessing over this is a complete waste of your time!

If, for example, you watched Friday-night PBS awfulvideo and had screwed your Brightness and Color both down to about 25, then turned the set off and went to bed, the next evening you have messed-up settings for, say, the History channel, VH1, or an ABC movie. So you return everything *first* to 31, and *then* adjust the Color and Brightness for this new program. That's it! It's no more subtle than that. If your room light is bright, you will likely prefer a little higher black level than if it's dark. For my neck of the woods, HD OTA broadcast is quite consistent, DVD is next-best, but SD cable channels are all over the place! Brightness at midpoint is just a *starting* point.

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post #146 of 2962 Old 06-27-2005, 06:48 PM
 
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ok thanks just wanted to make sure, no need to get in a pissy fit
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post #147 of 2962 Old 06-27-2005, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
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ARRGGHH! Let me say clearly: THERE IS NO ONE PERFECT BLACK LEVEL. No matter what you set as "the" black level, you will be diddling it for individual programs and DVDs. The whole purpose for intially settings a "reasonable" black level for the Brightness slider at its midpoint of 31 is for *convenience.* Obsessing over this is a complete waste of your time!

If, for example, you watched Friday-night PBS awfulvideo and had screwed your Brightness and Color both down to about 25, then turned the set off and went to bed, the next evening you have messed-up settings for, say, the History channel, VH1, or an ABC movie. So you return everything *first* to 31, and *then* adjust the Color and Brightness for this new program. That's it! It's no more subtle than that. If your room light is bright, you will likely prefer a little higher black level than if it's dark. For my neck of the woods, HD OTA broadcast is quite consistent, DVD is next-best, but SD cable channels are all over the place! Brightness at midpoint is just a *starting* point.

Personally, I have found a good compromise with black level. DVD's and HD with component look uniform from one dvd to another, same for HD, except noting a few broadcasts look a little dark, Lost, Cold Case and CSI-Miami at times.
SD broadcasts are another story as you have pointed out, however, I have resisted the urge, at the annoyance of my better half, to fiddle with the remote when we are watching together. I get that look, you know.

Let me first say, KENTECH, your dedication to these threads here and at Agoraquest is so beneficial to us. I am a reader, and have soaked up these boards for a few years now learning my little and unimportant hobby. For example, I built a homemade photocell from directions obtained at another forum. Using that knowledge, I, without expensive gadgets, cal'ed my grayscale with a multimeter to a known source, with numbers and equations. But until I read your thread on gamma, it wasn't quite perfect. Now, I am proud to say, with you help, order is restored.

Let's hope a moderator will make this thread a sticky in the near future.
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post #148 of 2962 Old 06-27-2005, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

no need to get in a pissy fit

Please! With me, it's a *hissy* fit, where one's panties are truly in a knot, not a mere *pissy* fit, where they just feel too tight.

It's just that I seem to be writing the same stuff over, and over, and . . .

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post #149 of 2962 Old 06-28-2005, 07:56 AM
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Hi -

Had a thought -- does anyone know if the kind of color calibration devices used for setting up profiles for digital photo editing can output an actual color temp that would be useful for setting color temp? I read KenTech's article on color temp, that involves fluffly clouds, no green light from leaves, etc - and the chances of my getting those conditions at a time when neither my kids nor spouse want something of me and I have an hour or so free....well, we're looking at 2020 at the soonest. I was thinking of getting an inexpensive product called Profile Mechanic from Digital Light and Color, that includes a sensor to read color output from a monitor - but I don't know if these typically talk directly to the software, or also output a color temp in Kelvin. No response yet from DLC on this.

Anyone done this?

Michael
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post #150 of 2962 Old 06-28-2005, 10:03 AM
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Michael, you might want to read this thread here on their discussion of "hobbyists" products. http://www.***************.com/htsth...0/fpart/1/vc/1

Product of discussion can be found here.
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.as...54&dcaid=17654

And a simple review.http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/a...tml#what_is_it

I would think these products would be very similar.

Personally haven't tried it. Recommend to do a little reading first. Good luck.
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