THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 53 - AVS Forum
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post #1561 of 2973 Old 05-21-2006, 09:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFlo View Post

Fred all they have is the service guide and some expensive tools(or they are supposed to), Honestly, I trust my own eye and time and the fact i have drive cause its my screen to do it myself. Aside from my most recent problem I can do the rest. My screen was in good condition with Ken's help of course along with others. Just get the service manual read the thread and its not so bad its just getting in the head of the guys that wrote this manual. I think Ken said on another thread it runs linux and some of the combinations are complex but the rest are very beneficial and easy to do.

Matt, I read that the day that happened. Remember the guy with the japanese tv tech? I pmed him and got that techs number. I know what the best magnets are. You just dont know who your messing with do you.


FYI there is no such thing as best magnets, tech's just use permaloy magnets to alighn the convergance.

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You just dont know who your messing with do you

Can you enlighten me a bit? not sure what that is about.
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post #1562 of 2973 Old 05-21-2006, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by irhxcbcziuzxs View Post

so im going to put sbrt at 29 and figure out which one is the gamma one, if anyone knows.. let me know cause i dont have time to go back reading right now..

ALSO, something exploded inside my TV, everything still works fine... dont know what the heck it was..

wierd green blob appeared but dissappeared later... and if someone could answer my question
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post #1563 of 2973 Old 05-21-2006, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irhxcbcziuzxs View Post

wierd green blob appeared but dissappeared later... and if someone could answer my question

The green glob is either a magnetic interferance issue or a color purity problem. Do you have any unshielded speakers next to the tv?


As for your darkness issue i don't know what to tell you, i pretty much told you everything i know, either something in your video chain is clipping blacks or you may have a faulty 360 or cable.
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post #1564 of 2973 Old 05-22-2006, 12:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irhxcbcziuzxs View Post

wierd green blob appeared but dissappeared later... and if someone could answer my question

On bright area? Intense electron flow in very bright area of picture heats up the aperture grille, warping it, causing pink or green splotches. When the brightness subsides, the color blob disappears. I can make it happen easily on my 36" XS955, so I reduce the brightness for certain test patterns. Normal video rarely causes the problem. Worst for me is very bright video from top to bottom at far left or right. On a total-white screen, a slightly greenish area forms to the left of center and disappears when the brightness is reduced.

I can't imagine how an aperture-grille tube this big can be even this glitch-free! Three cheers for precision manufacturing!

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post #1565 of 2973 Old 05-22-2006, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

irhxcbcziuzxs, SurfingMatt27 -- Please, you need to download and examine this chart so you can see all of the service-mode parameters that affect black level and brightness. You guys keep talking like SBRT is "the One" and that some value of SBRT is "Right." It's not and there isn't! Several settings *interact* to determine black level, and until you understand this, you will stay confused. SBRT=31 just happens to be in the middle of its range and has no special importance.

irhxcbcziuzxs - If you want to keep hammering on this one special problem you have, you might consider starting another thread that focuses on it. If your set is under warranty, ferchrissake get a tech to come out and look at it!

ive pretty much determined that SBRT isnt the problem, which setting it may be, im not sure... maybe some gamma setting as i had the same problem on my PC and gamma fixed it up in a jiffy, but as ive been away for awhile i forgot what settings do what, and generally i have a lack of time...
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post #1566 of 2973 Old 05-22-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoloTheRomeo View Post

I have a 30HS420, and it's really hard to get a good viewing level for the 360 games without setting GAMM to a high level. If you set SBRT or UBOF too high it will wash out the blacks, and I don't really feel like raising the Contrast/Picture setting in the user menu.

exactly, my sbrt is washing out the blacks but im not getting the shadow detail and still having black crush only the black crush is washed out,

but this is what everything is at right now...

sbrt - 31
ubof - 3
ucof - 5
gamm - 2
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post #1567 of 2973 Old 05-22-2006, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColdFlo View Post

There you go with that contemp again we are not little kids. It didnt say anything close to cataclysmic and its not that bad you just dont know the ans. Ken you do not know everything and I'm not an idiot, ok. There are techs that arent paid that well that know all this too. This is not rocketscience or nuclear power.

So, it's not rocket science, and you're not a little kid. And even low paid techs know this stuff. So how come you can't figure it out?

Being a year-long lurker amounts to absolutely nothing.

Here's what it says on the first post of this thread:

"...the undisciplined or impulsive (you know who you are!) may wish to avoid any of this."

If you don't know what you're doing, stay out of the Service Menu. You pay your quarter and you take your chances. No one held a gun to your head. You went barging into your SM and screwed-up your tv. And now you want to take others to task and complain you weren't adequately warned?

Take responsibility for your own errors. If something here isn't good enough for you, then take some time to improve on it. Try making a contribution. Anybody can complain.
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post #1568 of 2973 Old 05-25-2006, 07:22 AM
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Look, I fixed it. I know what you know, and now I know more. You have no room to talk down to me.
Also, I think I should thank the Sony Service Manual, and the guy with the pdf from the xbr and all the definitions. You guys would deserve some credit, but you have cashed it all out in arrogance and contempt so you dont deserve a thing. See, when mike said you dont own this forum, he should have proved it by proving that you cant do anything to stop him making you look like you truly are. A script kiddie that went leet over one thread in one of the largest forums on the net. I mean really control yourself, and stop making yourself out to be a joke.
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post #1569 of 2973 Old 05-25-2006, 07:26 AM
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come on boys, get pissed crank out the Frank Sinatra & get some Karaoke going

Will
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post #1570 of 2973 Old 05-26-2006, 10:00 AM
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Newbie here.
Can anyone direct me to a thread concerning just the color and
brightness settings on the new 34" Wega XBR Super Fine Pitch?
I'm pretty sure it's the KD-34XBR970, though it does say Super
Fine Pitch. HAs that controversy been resolved? Anyway, I know
the basics of Drive and Bias controls as well as some of Gamma
and Red Push. I found the consumer 'Monitor' button and turned
off the Red push and have to run the tint way over on 7 Red to
get faces to begin to look non-yellow. I set up a friend's 35" JVC
square flat tube TV last year with Menu access found on the internet. I finally got the black and white linear throughout all
the gray tones and got reasonably good fleshtones from the
horrible Comcast analog cable. DVDs look superb.
So, for this other friend, does anyone have a final set of tweaks
for getting the B&W linear while also achieving decent flesh tones? I've heard mention of Green push. Ugh. I haven't watched
the TV enough to see the gamut of Blue/Greens, which many new
CRT sets are pushing to mimic the color of plasmas.
Thanks to anyone who can direct me to just the color/gamma
settings. It's too dark and the black and white is purply and the
flesh tones are jaundiced at best, bileous at worst...thanks!
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post #1571 of 2973 Old 05-26-2006, 10:57 AM
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I found the discussions. Thanxabunch!
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post #1572 of 2973 Old 05-27-2006, 12:05 PM
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For some reason it is not saving my setting. After I change the settings, I press mute and power off, then power back on. I see that my settings have all been reverted.

What's the problem?
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post #1573 of 2973 Old 05-27-2006, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluecheese View Post

For some reason it is not saving my setting. After I change the settings, I press mute and power off, then power back on. I see that my settings have all been reverted.

What's the problem?

mute + enter, before power off/on
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post #1574 of 2973 Old 05-27-2006, 01:00 PM
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lol Thanks. I was going to kill myself (extreme exaggeration).

Looks like ISF calibration can wait a little while.
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post #1575 of 2973 Old 05-27-2006, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irhxcbcziuzxs View Post

exactly, my sbrt is washing out the blacks but im not getting the shadow detail and still having black crush only the black crush is washed out,

but this is what everything is at right now...

sbrt - 31
ubof - 3
ucof - 5
gamm - 2

Try raising the _CUT settings...I have found they are the best way to increase shadow detail without washing the image out. Of course, when you raise the _CUT settings, you have to decrease the corresponding _DRV settings to compensate. Every two increases in the _CUT settings requires about 1 decrease in the _DRV settings.
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post #1576 of 2973 Old 05-28-2006, 09:44 AM
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I'm very intrigued by the gamut question as it relates to HDTV.
The original NTSC standard used a green phosphor with much less
yellow and only plasma screens come close to this standard today.
They actually overshoot the standard, which renders many greens
and blue greens in deeper hues than are achievable on CRT sets.
My thinking on the out-of-the-box settings on the Sony is that
they were emulating the plasma gamut by tinkering with the
other values to bring up the deep greens and turquoises.
Does anyone else see this? It's not that the CRT phosphors are
deficient for the most part. They produce a much better yellow
and render flesh tones more readily than plasmas. But the
plasmas have a 'new look' which emphasizes turquoise and
emerald greens. It would be great if Sony would publish a set of
values that would restore true color fidelity to these sets!
Out of the box, I use 'Monitor' to kill the red push and then move
the tint control to 7 on the red side to kill the green face tones.
White type embedded in a blue background looks pink, which
makes me wonder about the color temp -- even when it's set to
'cool' which is supposed to be the bluest. I have yet to go into
the service menu, since I'm still reading the posts for courage.
I was naive enough to think that all HDTVS would meet a certain
and exacting standard the way computers do. HA!
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post #1577 of 2973 Old 05-28-2006, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Try raising the _CUT settings...I have found they are the best way to increase shadow detail without washing the image out. Of course, when you raise the _CUT settings, you have to raise the corresponding _DRV settings to compensate. Every two increases in the _CUT settings seems to equal about 1 decrease in the _DRV settings.

anyone else got anything to say on this?
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post #1578 of 2973 Old 05-28-2006, 01:58 PM
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I have the service manual.
I guess I was looking to see if anyone had an inside track as to SONY's suggested step by step instructions on how to bring back the factory geometry and guidelines to look for in doing so.

As of this posting I am waiting for an "authorized" SONY dealer to come here again and try to make my geometry close to factory original. Frankly, I don't think he knows any more than what I have read and tried in here.

Lastly, I hope you guys don't take this forum as a competition to see who knows the most. That will surely ruin this nice forum.

Las Vegas
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post #1579 of 2973 Old 05-29-2006, 09:36 AM
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Hello all,
I have asked this a few times before, but let me elaborate. I am trying to determine if I am having an issue with the color decoder chip in my set. I see a lot of color banding in most all of the sources I input (DVD via XBOX 360 and a cheap Sony player both using component output, XBOX 360 games, and standard cable.) Since I don't own a reference grade DVD player, how can I determine if there is an issue with my set. As I understand it, most of the color banding issues come from the DVD player and not the source material and the pros in the mastering studio use CRTs because they are generally capable of displaying more colors than other display types.
To explain further as to why I think it may be my set, when I enter the Service Menu QM pattern menu # 10 I am seeing 1/8" discreet steps instead of (what I believe should be) a smooth gradient.
I am also seeing a fair amount of random noise when I scrutinize the screen. Maybe this could be related to a voltage or dirty power issue. (Just an extremely uneducated guess.)
Again, I have inquired about this in the past and the sound of crickets was maddening!
Please, any input would be greatly appreciated!

Bryan
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post #1580 of 2973 Old 05-30-2006, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

As I understand it, most of the color banding issues come from the DVD player and not the source material and the pros in the mastering studio use CRTs because they are generally capable of displaying more colors than other display types.

Yes, but only with an analog signal path all the way to the CRT.
Quote:


To explain further as to why I think it may be my set, when I enter the Service Menu QM pattern menu # 10 I am seeing 1/8" discreet steps instead of (what I believe should be) a smooth gradient.

What you are seeing seems normal and the best digital TV will do. Each primary color is digitized into 256 steps, and your computer in "high color" does the same. 1/8" bands X 256 = 32" -- about right for your screen. The 1/8" banding you are seeing for primary colors is in the source, inherent in digital video.

When the banding gets coarser, you have something else going on. If I fiddle with the "Brightness" and "Contrast" controls in my Panasonic S97 DVD player, I immediately see coarser banding, as color levels have to be dropped or doubled to change the response curve (a crude resampling). So I never mess with those, but use the TV's adjustments instead, which are not acccomplished digitally.

KenTech
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post #1581 of 2973 Old 05-30-2006, 03:42 PM
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Thanks for the response, KenTech! Very enlightening! I must ask then, do you experience banding to one degree or another with all your sources? What must it be like for people with 60" screens?
Will HD-DVD remedy this issue? I assume not since even an internal gradient seems to be displayed in 24 bits/256x3 steps. I am not a huge videophile, but I can't believe that this is the first time I have heard that our displays are only in 24bit depth.
Yes, at times the banding can vary up to 1" wide if the color difference in a wide swath of sky varies just a bit. The variation in color seems to be more than a few steps of separation in brightness.
As you can see, I'm having a hard time swallowing that this is something everyone experiences.
So there it is, I'm stuck. Well, It's good to know that I DO just have to live with it.
Thanks again,

Bryan
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post #1582 of 2973 Old 05-31-2006, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

Will HD-DVD remedy this issue? I assume not since even an internal gradient seems to be displayed in 24 bits/256x3 steps. I am not a huge videophile, but I can't believe that this is the first time I have heard that our displays are only in 24bit depth.
Yes, at times the banding can vary up to 1" wide if the color difference in a wide swath of sky varies just a bit. The variation in color seems to be more than a few steps of separation in brightness.
As you can see, I'm having a hard time swallowing that this is something everyone experiences.

I have just attempted to read several documents and Web pages on HDTV definitions, and I am having a hard time identifying any information about bit depth. 8 bits per color is one of the digital-video standards, but broadcast HDTV may be 10 bits (1024 levels) per color. High-end rendering software boasts 12-bit internal processing, but I believe it has to be sampled down to meet the HDTV standard, which may be 10-bit per color, indeed. That doesn't say that your *source* isn't 8-bit. That 1/8" banding is visible on the #10 test pattern could be evidence that the *test pattern* is being *generated* at 8 bits. (I have exactly the same TV chassis as you do.)

On DVDs with subtle gradients of brightness/color, banding is always visible, unless it's very grainy, which acts like a dither. Example: In Monsters Inc., when Sully puts the kid to bed, flickering candlelight on the wall makes banding pretty obvious, and I think it's in the DVD, as my players all render it exactly the same. (I think DVD is 8-bit.) Same with ocean backgrounds in Finding Nemo -- a torture test for banding.

So my word on this certainly is not definitive, and I'm having a hard time clarifying it for myself. Maybe someone else has the answer to this one: What IS the bit depth for the HDTV standard?

In regular watching of HDTV broadcasts, my attention is not called to any banding. Real-world images tend to mask it.

One reason I mentioned 8 bits is because the digitized SD video from a digital video camera (DV-25) or analog/digital converter (say a Canopus ADC-100) has 8-bit luminance values. White is 255, black is 0. But HDTV may be much better.

KenTech
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post #1583 of 2973 Old 05-31-2006, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnfull View Post

I'm very intrigued by the gamut question as it relates to HDTV.
The original NTSC standard used a green phosphor with much less
yellow and only plasma screens come close to this standard today.
They actually overshoot the standard, which renders many greens
and blue greens in deeper hues than are achievable on CRT sets.

There are some good sites online that explain how the gamut of the different technologies relate to the defined digital-TV standards. Here is a good example. There are others.

http://www.displaymate.com/shootout.html

KenTech
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post #1584 of 2973 Old 05-31-2006, 01:33 PM
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KenTech,

Thanks again for your answers and enlightening investigation into this subject.
I have been known to be excruciatingly critical of how things perform. Seems I expect too much from my current equipment. Not that I am disappointed, this is by far the BEST picture I've seen from a set. It just opens the door for the enrapturing tendrils of "the perfect picture" to take hold of my easily distracted thoughts!

Regards,

Bryan

p.s. I'm glad this thread has had some time to cool-down. I was a little afraid to come back after the tone that was set a week ago. Cheers everyone!
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post #1585 of 2973 Old 05-31-2006, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Maybe someone else has the answer to this one: What IS the bit depth for the HDTV standard?

Know what you mean, Ken - some of this stuff can be difficult to dig up and "Decipher" properly ....

If I am reading some of the below correctly, I think it is 8bit(chrominance or luminance) by the time it gets to us via ATSC/MPEG2 encoding at the "source"(a broadcaster, for instance).

So, I believe this offers a fair summary, which AFAIK is correct :

This ( http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html ) says :

"For ATSC MPEG-2 the colors are represented as Y, Pr, and Pb, which are defined as:

Y = Red+Green+Blue (Y is also called intensity or luminance and is sometimes depicted as white.)

Pr = Red-Y

Pb = Blue-Y (Pr and Pb are the color information, or chrominance.)

There is only one Pr and Pb pixel for every four Y pixels. Thus 720p has 1280*720=921,600 Y pixels plus 230,400 Pr pixels plus 230,400 Pb pixels.........

Although the color information is at a lower resolution, human eyes can rarely sense this at the correct sitting distance ........

The Y information is encoded as an 8-bit number. Pr and Pb likewise are 8-bit numbers. The monitor will eventually convert YPrPb into RGB. The number of bits per visible pixel averages out to 12, not 24...... "

:end quote

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:


There are some good sites online that explain how the gamut of the different technologies relate to the defined digital-TV standards.

Also, for those interested, Detailed info on ATSC standard(used for DTV/HD in U.S.) in the form of downloadable(free) PDF white papers can be found here :

http://www.atsc.org/standards.html

The document labeled "A/54A "ATSC Recommended Practice: Guide to the Use of the ATSC Digital Television Standard" is probably the one I use or refer to most often - Here's a direct link to it :

http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_54a.pdf

Back to "HDTV color" ... On Page 22, Section 5.2.2 of the A54 document it says :

:quote

"5.2.2 Precision of Samples
Samples are typically obtained using analog-to-digital converter circuits with 10-bit precision. After studio processing, the various luminance and chrominance samples will typically be represented using 8 or 10 bits per sample for luminance and 8 bits per sample for each chrominance component. The limit of precision of the MPEG-2 Main Profile is 8 bits per sample for each of the luminance and chrominance components."

:end quote

Note on above : I wouldn't think A/D conversion would be needed for a signal that is already "digital" such as a Network HD feed.

Section 5.2.1.3 (also on page 22) also has some info that may be of some interest here concerning color and ATSC :
:quote

5.2.1.3 Colorimetry
For the purposes of the Digital Television Standard, colorimetry means the combination ofcolor primaries, transfer characteristics, and matrix coefficients. Video inputs conforming to SMPTE 274M and SMPTE 296M have the same colorimetry; in this document, this will be referred to as SMPTE 274M colorimetry. Note that SMPTE 274M colorimetry is the same as ITU-R BT. 709 Part 2 colorimetry. Video inputs corresponding to ITU-R BT. 601-5 should have SMPTE 170M colorimetry. ISO/IEC 13818-2 allows the encoder to signal the input colorimetry parameter values to the decoder. If sequence_display_extension() is not present in the bit stream, or if color_description is zero, the color primaries, transfer characteristics, and matrix coefficients are assumed to be implicitly defined by the application. Therefore, the colorimetry should always be explicitly signaled using sequence_display_extension(). If this information is not transmitted, receiver behavior cannot be predicted.

In generating bit streams, broadcasters should understand that some receivers will display 480-line formats according to SMPTE 170M colorimetry (value 0x06) and 720- and 1080-line formats according to SMPTE 274M colorimetry (value 0x01). It is believed that few receivers will display properly the other colorimetry combinations allowed by ISO/IEC 13818-2. Legacy material using SMPTE 240M colorimetry should be treated as if it used ITU-R BT. 709 Part 2 colorimetry.

:end quote

Hope some of the above is of some interest ...

Jeff
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post #1586 of 2973 Old 06-02-2006, 07:32 AM
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As the owner of a XBR970 I've just purchased a couple of day ago, I have submerged myself into this thread, as fascinating as it is long, so I am still in the process of reading it throughout.

But in the meantime, maybe someone could help me with a couple of doubts:

- first, is there any way to go to a "printer friendly" version of the whole thread? It would be much easier if I could carry with me a hard copy of this on paper that I can read when I ride the bus and at times like that.

- and secondly, I have searched throughout the entire thread (both manually and using the "search" feature) and, as far as I have been able to determine, the only pdfs for service menus are those attached to the very first post. Does that mean that I can use those to enter the service menu of the XBR970?

Thanks in advance, and I will surely be back after getting up to date with the thread.
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post #1587 of 2973 Old 06-02-2006, 10:04 AM
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There have been a number of attachments added throughout this thread. You may just have to read everything to locate them. As far as I know, the access code to enter the SM works for the 970 just fine.

Please - only go into the SM if you intend to be diligent about recording the default values BEFORE adjusting anything. If you do not intend to do this then it would be better if you stay out of the SM.
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post #1588 of 2973 Old 06-02-2006, 10:58 AM
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(3) I revisited all of my LANDING settings from #0 thru 6. #6, TESW, turns off the corner compensation of #0-3, LT-RB, so you can choose settings for EWSP and ENSW that give a most-even color for the screen. Put up a white or gray full screen (my black crosshatch-on-gray will do), not too bright, stand back a ways, set TESW to 1, and set EWSP and ENSW for best evenness. Then turn TESW back to 0 and tweak LT-RB for best corners -- minimum color, minimum darkening. (Don't stare; move your eyes around.) I improved mine. Something a tech said to me reminded me that there *are* set-orientation adjustments, and EW and NS look like east-west and north-south to me. I ended up with different settings than I had before and a more-even screen.

Ken,

I made some of these adjustments, and was able to improve evenness a little; however, the top to bottom left and right sides are a slightly redder white than the top to bottom center of the screen. Is there anyway to further improve upon this??

Thanks.
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post #1589 of 2973 Old 06-02-2006, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by justsc View Post

There have been a number of attachments added throughout this thread. You may just have to read everything to locate them. As far as I know, the access code to enter the SM works for the 970 just fine.

Please - only go into the SM if you intend to be diligent about recording the default values BEFORE adjusting anything. If you do not intend to do this then it would be better if you stay out of the SM.

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I scanned throughout the entire thread page by page, making a search on each of them for XBR970, but I guess I missed them. I will try harder.

But, from your words, I understand that somebody posted an access code specific for the XBR970, is that right? Or should I use those on the first page?

As for going into the SM, thanks for your sensible warning, but don't worry. This is not the first TV set I tinker with, and I always write down every value before touching anything, so I can go back to factory settings if needed, of course.
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post #1590 of 2973 Old 06-02-2006, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Roy Batty View Post

Thank you for your prompt reply.

I scanned throughout the entire thread page by page, making a search on each of them for XBR970, but I guess I missed them. I will try harder.

But, from your words, I understand that somebody posted an access code specific for the XBR970, is that right? Or should I use those on the first page?

As for going into the SM, thanks for your sensible warning, but don't worry. This is not the first TV set I tinker with, and I always write down every value before touching anything, so I can go back to factory settings if needed, of course.

Oops!

You will see no posts with attachments with references to the 970. I sure wish I'd seen that sooner and maybe could have saved you some time.

You can most probably assume that everything in here that refers to the HS420 series, and probably even the XS/XBR series sets applies to the 970. The HS420 models are closest to your 970.

By all meams, use the access code from the first page to get into the SM. Glad to hear you've done this before.

Cheers!
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