THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 2973 Old 06-03-2006, 02:27 PM
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KenTech and Others...

I would really appreciate it if you would review the thread referrenced below and clarify things for those of us participating in the thread. Essentially, the discussion is centered around what the Sony crt HD sets are doing with SD signals. Is everything really scaled to 1080i, or do these sets actually deliver 480p and 960i via DRC and other built-in technlologies?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682879

Please weigh-in over in the referenced thread, and here is also if you like.

Thanks a bunch guys!
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post #1592 of 2973 Old 06-04-2006, 06:21 AM
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2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are universal raster or "picture frame" settings? (except where noted in the manual) 2170D-2 -- #3 -SLIN adjust stretch of picture horizontally ?
MID1 #0 thru 5 is universal, and # 8 through 12 is picture size on the raster and can be adjusted to viewer preference?
MID3 is mainly 1080i and 720p adjustments?
MID2 is mainly 480i adjustments?


Has anyone posted information on MID3 #'s 4 through 11?

Has anyone posted information on 2170D-3 #'s 1 and 2 ?
When I follow the manual to center the raster I get a mirror effect on the right side of the raster. Is this normal?


Thanks in advance.

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post #1593 of 2973 Old 06-04-2006, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsc View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682879
Please weigh-in over in the referenced thread, and here is also if you like.

I just posted my observations here.

I guess I would prefer if that discussion didn't "leak" back into this service-mode thread.

KenTech
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post #1594 of 2973 Old 06-04-2006, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I just posted my observations here.

I guess I would prefer if that discussion didn't "leak" back into this service-mode thread.

I heartily agree.

This thread is one of facts, figures, thoughtful analysis and reasoned inquiries.

Let's keep it that way.

And thanks for lending your insights to the other thread.
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post #1595 of 2973 Old 06-04-2006, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

2170D-1 and 2170D-2 are universal raster or "picture frame" settings? (except where noted in the manual) 2170D-2 -- #3 -SLIN adjust stretch of picture horizontally ? . . . MID1 #0 thru 5 is universal, and # 8 through 12 is picture size on the raster and can be adjusted to viewer preference?

One day I tried to figure all this out, and I took notes.

It looks like 2170D-2 #0-5 are universal, indeed. #6 is a luminance-color delay setting, and #7 is a "Y-S" delay setting, whatever that is. #8-11 seem very similar to four items in 0-5, above, but the scope of the settings can be adjusted per several frame types (VGA, "Others," etc.).

SLIN isn't a general stretch adjustment but varies the s-curve compensation for the dimension it affects (I forget; vertical?)
Quote:
MID3 is mainly 1080i and 720p adjustments?
MID2 is mainly 480i adjustments?

That seems to jive with my notes.
Quote:
Has anyone posted information on MID3 #'s 4 through 11?

Yes. They seem to be esoteric pulse and timing parameters, with abbreviations for phase-locked-loop, width (pulse), start, stop, field reverse, etc. I doubt that tinkering with these are to any benefit, as they are likely adjusted with instruments connected.
Quote:
Has anyone posted information on 2170D-3 #'s 1 and 2 ?

2170D-3 #0-6 control the blanking "shutters" that prevent the electron guns from spraying the sides of the CRT where reflected energy could cause glow and contrast reduction. You have to turn these off to confidently center a raster and picture or even adjust overscan.

#0-HBLK and #3-VBLK are the "master switches" for this function, horizintal and vertical, respectively. The other four parameters are the widths of the blanking shutters (blanked areas). Higher is wider.

A normal procedure for adjustment would be: Turn off the blanking entirely with the switches. Do your centering and overscan adjustments. Then turn the blanking back on, and adjust the four shutters until they just creep into the visible raster; then back off the settings a bit until they disappear off the edge of the screen. Now the electron beams are cut off beyond the edge of the phosphor area.
Quote:
When I follow the manual to center the raster I get a mirror effect on the right side of the raster. Is this normal?

Are you being careful to distimguish between positioning the raster and positioning the picture on the raster? In an orthodox adjustment process from the service manual, 2170D-2 #0-HCNT centers the raster (scanned area) on the CRT. Then #1-HPOS centers the picture (video frame) on the raster. You can push the video frame so far to the right or left that it appears to "wrap" back on itself. Is this what you mean?

Note that some of the size adjustments in MID1 leave one edge stationary while extending the other edge, unlike the actions in 2170D-1 and -2. This can be confusing if you don't see it at first.

I hope this is some help. I concentrated on this one afternoon in the winter and got it right for my set, then have left it alone for months. So these are not fresh memories, and my notes are somewhat cryptic.

KenTech
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post #1596 of 2973 Old 06-04-2006, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasdock View Post

On my TV--a 30xs955--I notice two vertical bars a few inches in from both the left and right sides of the screen. They are only really visible against a very bright image, and they appear as slightly brighter bars extending the entire height of the screen. What happens is, when text is scrolling across the screen or the camera pans, the picture seems to curve when it hits those two spots. It's like the entire image dips down and comes back up once it's past those bars. Does that make sense? What could cause something like this, and can it be fixed?

My 30XS955 does the exact same thing. It's bad enough where I want to smash the CRT in with a hammer and call it a day.

In all seriousness, when I first got my set it had a major color purity problem on the left side of the screen. There was a HUGE yellow spot that you could see on anything that wasn't dark. I called a Sony-authorized tech out to come fix it, and he did, but shortly thereafter I noticed the TV having this effect extremely pronounced in approximately the same area that had the yellow problem. I think the tech just attached some magnets to the back of the set to fix the color problem but in the process totally f'd up the geometry.

If you look at a crosshatch pattern you can see that the boxes in the pattern become smaller (horizontally compressed) where the picture appears to "dip." Logically I thought that adjusting SLIN would help alleviate the problem, and it does (but does not eliminate it), but at the expense of round objects looking like footballs on the sides of the screen. This of course is unacceptable and I'm at my wits end since my 90-day in-home warranty has expired on the set, and am strongly debating just shelling out the cash to get a competent tech to look at it.

I had the back of my set off to see if I could tell if the tech had attached a glob of magnets to the affected area but I got gunshy after staring at the set's innards for a few minutes.

Since the tube is still under warranty, would it be worth the effort to try and sort this out with Sony? Is there some service mode setting I may be unaware of that would help?

I apologize for the long read.
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post #1597 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 08:57 AM
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alphacorvus,

Welcome to AVS!

I'm curious, did you buy your set new, or was it possibly open box or a refurb? Just curious.

While I can't help you with possible SM adjustments, there are many others here that will contribute to those possibilities.
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post #1598 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justc View Post

Welcome to AVS!

I've been a lurker for several months now, but thanks for the welcome. In that time I think I've read nearly every post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justsc View Post

I'm curious, did you buy your set new, or was it possibly open box or a refurb? Just curious.

Brand new, in box in October 2005. I probably should have exchanged it right away after I noticed it, but when you nearly kill yourself placing a TV that weighs more than you onto a TV stand you get reluctant to move it again . And from what I remember originally, the color problem was the only issue...which isn't something I thought was going to be a big deal.

More and more I think it's something that a tech is going to have to adjust physically, rather than anything that can be achieved in the SM.
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post #1599 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 02:07 PM
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Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasdock
On my TV--a 30xs955--I notice two vertical bars a few inches in from both the left and right sides of the screen. They are only really visible against a very bright image, and they appear as slightly brighter bars extending the entire height of the screen. What happens is, when text is scrolling across the screen or the camera pans, the picture seems to curve when it hits those two spots. It's like the entire image dips down and comes back up once it's past those bars. Does that make sense? What could cause something like this, and can it be fixed?

Every single Sony HS, XS or XBR960 I have seen has these; it must be a by-product of Sony's design. When I first go my set, I thought it could be a defect, but when I went back to the stores to look at floor models, they could be always be found. I think that a lot people simply never notice them, and/or perhaps they are less pronounced on some sets. Mine are fairly minimal, and don't bother me much. When the set is well calibrated, it serves to minimize them.
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post #1600 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 02:24 PM
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BTW,

I recently made what I feel is big discovery for setting white/greyscale. When adjusting the _DRV and _CUT settings, start with jacking up RDRV and RCUT to a maximum of 63, then only adjust GDRV, BDRV, GCUT and BCUT settings - leaving RDRV and RCUT at 63 each. This will result in a need to lower overall contrast a bit. Furthermore, the closer the corresponding GDRV/GCUT and BDRV/BCUT are to each other, the better the picture looks. In other words, play around with the settings until your GDRV and GCUT settings are the same value; do same with BDRV and BCUT. I'm not sure why this is the case, but the whole picture just comes together perfectly when the corresponding value for each color are the same or very near the same.

Following these two guidelines has given me by far the best picture I have seen with my set (30XS955)

I'm using:

RDRV = 63
GDRV = 31
BDRV = 27
RCUT = 63
GCUT = 30
BCUT = 27

I had to play around with it for a long time to get an accurate greyscale. I had settled with GCUT at 31 for a while, but had an ever so slight, tiny green push, which I corrected by lowering it one value.

I highly recommend everyone try this; the results are stunning. Shadow detail is awesome now with zero wash out and deeper blacks. Amazing.
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post #1601 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

BTW,

I recently made what I feel is big discovery for setting white/greyscale. When adjusting the _DRV and _CUT settings, start with jacking up RDRV and RCUT to a maximum of 63, then only adjust GDRV, BDRV, GCUT and BCUT settings - leaving RDRV and RCUT at 63 each. This will result in a need to lower overall contrast a bit. Furthermore, the closer the corresponding GDRV/GCUT and BDRV/BCUT are to each other, the better the picture looks. In other words, play around with the settings until your GDRV and GCUT settings are the same value; do same with BDRV and BCUT. I'm not sure why this is the case, but the whole picture just comes together perfectly when the corresponding value for each color are the same or very near the same.

Following these two guidelines has given me by the best picture I have seen with my set (30XS955)

I'm using:

RDRV = 63
GDRV = 31
BDRV = 27
RCUT = 63
GCUT = 30
BCUT = 27

I had to play around with it for a long time to get these settings. I had GCUT at 31 for while, but had an ever so slight, tiny green push, which I corrected by lowering it one value. I highly recommend everyone try this; the results are stunning. Shadow detail is awesome now with zero wash out and deeper blacks. Amazing.

I'm curious, what are your values for the following settings in 2170P-4:
RYR
RYB
GYR
GYB

Thanks!
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post #1602 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsc View Post

I'm curious, what are your values for the following settings in 2170P-4:
RYR
RYB
GYR
GYB

Thanks!

I'm using:

RYR = 14
RYB = 14
GYR = 6
GYB = 4
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post #1603 of 2973 Old 06-05-2006, 03:47 PM
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I also have my all my gamma values at zero.
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post #1604 of 2973 Old 06-06-2006, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Following these two guidelines has given me by far the best picture I have seen with my set (30XS955)

I'm using:

RDRV = 63
GDRV = 31
BDRV = 27
RCUT = 63
GCUT = 30
BCUT = 27

I highly recommend everyone try this; the results are stunning. Shadow detail is awesome now with zero wash out and deeper blacks. Amazing.

Are you saying that you have obtained different results than if the settings were similarly in balance for good color and grayscale but were lower. For example, _DRV = 43-27-21 and _CUT = 43-21-24.

I have always assumed that these settings program a linear amplifying system in the video chain, and whether they average high or low doesn't matter because SBRT balances them against the Brightness slider setting. I opted to be in the middle of the range 0-63, and SBRT=29 balances those _DRV and _CUT settings above perfectly for me.

I have assumed that my setting _DRV and _CUT higher and SBRT lower would be exactly equivalent, unless we are runing into a nonlinearity in the video amplifiers that are controlled by these settings. This would be the equivalent of a crude and accidental gamma adjustment! But you've got me curious . . .

BTW, what SBRT are you using to balance this all out. Do you have the Brightness slider centered at 31?

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post #1605 of 2973 Old 06-06-2006, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Are you saying that you have obtained different results than if the settings were similarly in balance for good color and grayscale but were lower. For example, _DRV = 43-27-21 and _CUT = 43-21-24.

Yes, this is precisely what I am saying I have discovered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I have always assumed that these settings program a linear amplifying system in the video chain, and whether they average high or low doesn't matter because SBRT balances them against the Brightness slider setting. I opted to be in the middle of the range 0-63, and SBRT=29 balances those _DRV and _CUT settings above perfectly for me.

Interesting - I have found the SBRT and _CUT settings to not be perfectly linear. For example, when using test patterns for black level, raising _CUT has a significantly reduced effect on washout compared to SBRT. In other words, for the amount of shadow detail increase attained from raising _CUT did not require a significant reduction in SBRT to compensate according to the black level test patterns I'm using with AVIA. It was this discovery that led me to try find an accurate grey scale using higher _CUT settings, which lead to higher _DRV settings as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I have assumed that my setting _DRV and _CUT higher and SBRT lower would be exactly equivalent, unless we are runing into a nonlinearity in the video amplifiers that are controlled by these settings. This would be the equivalent of a crude and accidental gamma adjustment! But you've got me curious . . .

Well, I hope you'll give it a try; the results suprised me as well. I have also found that the _DRV and "Picture" adjustment from the main menu are also not perfectly linear. I tried using higher _CUT settings than _DRV settings thinking I could just raise "Picture" to compensate, but it didn't look very good (or anywhere near as good as it looks now). For some reason, the picture just "comes together" best when the corresponding _CUT and _DRV values are the same or very close to the same, and set their highest. Of course, setting greyscale with these restrictions is much more difficult, and takes a lot of patience. Maybe I was just lucky enough to find the combination that met these parameters, but I now believe I have a near perfect greyscale. As previously stated, shadow detail is better than I have ever gotten it, and yet the blacks seem a little bit blacker. You have to see it to believe it - even some of the darkest scenes have depth and shadow detail without any washout.

Quote:


BTW, what SBRT are you using to balance this all out. Do you have the Brightness slider centered at 31?

I concluded some time ago that the SBRT was the same exact adjustment as the Brightness slider from the main menu, so it seemed that it didn't matter if I centered it at 31 or not. I played with it and found no difference - if I brought SBRT up to 31, I simply had to bring down Brightness to 32. The relationship between the 2 seems 100% linear. My SBRT setting is 23 (23 was the factory setting), and I have Brightness at 40.
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post #1606 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 12:41 AM
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[quote=I have always assumed that these settings program a linear amplifying system in the video chain, and whether they average high or low doesn't matter because SBRT balances them against the Brightness slider setting. I opted to be in the middle of the range 0-63, and SBRT=29 balances those _DRV and _CUT settings above perfectly for me.

I have assumed that my setting _DRV and _CUT higher and SBRT lower would be exactly equivalent, unless we are runing into a nonlinearity in the video amplifiers that are controlled by these settings. This would be the equivalent of a crude and accidental gamma adjustment! But you've got me curious . . .[/QUOTE]

Kentech, if you look at those service data listings for the older KD-34XBR2 it shows a non-linear relationship between cut @ 0, cut @ 31 & cut @ 63 !!!
Example:setting cut (r, g or b) to 0=-9dB gain. Setting cut to 31 (mid range) =0dB gain and setting cut to max (63) = +4dB gain.
Looks like the drive settings are almost linear....

Todd
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post #1607 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 01:12 AM
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Hi Folks:

I have an older KV36XBR800 (4:3) and have been trying to resolve the corner discoloration issues that alot of people have experienced - my problem is that the service menu for the 36XBR800 is less extensive, and there is no LANDING group to tweak.

I've tried searching the forums as well as this thread with no luck so far.

Does anybody know if I can make changes similar to codes 0-3 in the LANDING group of the 960 on my 800? Or am I just out of luck?

Thanks very much.
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post #1608 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 09:13 AM
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Quote:


Looks like the drive settings are almost linear....

I found that the Drive settings are still significantly non linear, though not as much as the _CUT settings.
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post #1609 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore
I found that the Drive settings are still significantly non linear, though not as much as the _CUT settings.
Take a look at the attached page.
I can't say that all sony DA4/x chassis behave this way.
It may be the red gun running out of steam that causes some of the non linear behavior. I think I noticed red starting to compress as I raised the Rdrv setting up past 55 (mine is at 52). The chart I mention is just how the electronic processing part of the chain may behave not how the actual CRT behaves.
What sort of measurement tools & test discs are you using to confirm your findings.

 

Pages from KD34XBR2.pdf 38.30078125k . file
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Pages from KD34XBR2.pdf (38.3 KB, 6 views)
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post #1610 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

Kentech, if you look at those service data listings for the older KD-34XBR2 it shows a non-linear relationship between cut @ 0, cut @ 31 & cut @ 63 !!!
Example:setting cut (r, g or b) to 0=-9dB gain. Setting cut to 31 (mid range) =0dB gain and setting cut to max (63) = +4dB gain.
Looks like the drive settings are almost linear....

That's not the nonlinearity I was referring to. I was proposing a possible nonlinearity in the instantaneous video voltage response, i.e. how much the screen brightness changes for a 0.2V change in video for (a) dark areas, (b) lighter areas. If this amplifying system does not have a strictly straight-line response and has instead sort of an S-curve, and lowering _DRV and _CUT pushed the video signal lower on that curve, shadow contrast will be lowered. (Contrast = the slope of the curve.) If we try the opposite, pushing the video higher on the curve by running _DRV and _CUT values up to near max, shadow contrast would be sugnificantly increased, and maybe highlight detail would be attenuated -- a "washed out" look. Note again: This is all hypothetical.

I'm not talking about the relationship between the _DRV and _CUT steps and what effect they have on dB of video gain, but how the amplifying system behaves after a setting has been changed. It's this latter effect that would change the appearance of the video onscreen by modifying (in an uncontrolled manner!) the shape of the video-response curve relative to the actual video signal. I am hoping it is linear, and nonlinearity is cotrolled by gamma and a couple other settings. But I can't prove anything. I am very likely to make some tests myself, as I am very curious whether the observations by RWetmore can be confirmed on my set.

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post #1611 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

It may be the red gun running out of steam that causes some of the non linear behavior. I think I noticed red starting to compress as I raised the Rdrv setting up past 55 (mine is at 52).

Your wondering about this makes me ask: Are we under pressure to get the video signal properly "positioned" between cutoff and saturation, both for the CRT and the amplifiers, to make sure the three colors track so as to produce a perfect grayscale? It's not like one can just easily stick a 'scope probe on some signal line to see if there's rounding or clipping of the video. Some of the settings specification in the service manual explicitly refer to 'scope patters and voltages. Maybe this is important, we'll see.

An additional thought: If the response curvature added by the gamma circuits is fixed in position relative to cutoff and saturation, sliding the video signal up and down the curve will change the appearance quite a bit, indeed! We don't know in what order these parameters are applied and how independent they are.

It took me forever to get grayscale right. I thought for a while that I had to solve a yellowish-midtones probles by using a different gamma for the blue channel. Wrong! I hadn't adjusted the _CUT parameters correctly, and another effect had masked the real issue. Now my grayscale is dead-on, and the benefits for picture quality can't minimized. But all of my settings are sort of in the middle of the ranges for those adjustments, something I chose to do because it seemed reasonable and instinctively correct (speaking as an electronics engineer). Maybe I'll learn something really interesting by trying RWetmore's _DRV and _CUT settings philosophy (if that's not too strong a word )

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post #1612 of 2973 Old 06-07-2006, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

It took me forever to get grayscale right. I thought for a while that I had to solve a yellowish-midtones probles by using a different gamma for the blue channel. Wrong! I hadn't adjusted the _CUT parameters correctly, and another effect had masked the real issue. Now my grayscale is dead-on, and the benefits for picture quality can't minimized. But all of my settings are sort of in the middle of the ranges for those adjustments, something I chose to do because it seemed reasonable and instinctively correct (speaking as an electronics engineer).

I remember your setting the gamb setting different Vs the red & blue.
I only recently was able to check my grayscale with a spydertv and using a spreadsheet to do the calculations (see calibration thread). I was not too far off from D65 but it could use a little further tweaking.
I have not done any changes to my Sony set in the last 6 months Since I have been preoccupied with calibrating a new Sharp LCD I have in my bedroom.
The Sony looks so much better in terms of color & depth of image (especially in dark areas) that I just wanted it to be my sanctuary when I'm fed up with the sharp !!!
Now that I have the Sharp with half a viewable picture, I plan to do re-visit the grayscale & color decoder on the Sony !!!
It will be interesting if Rwetmore's ideas will further improve the sony and are those results measurable ???

Todd
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post #1613 of 2973 Old 06-08-2006, 12:13 AM
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Maybe I'll learn something really interesting by trying RWetmore's _DRV and _CUT settings philosophy (if that's not too strong a word )

I hope you do....as I'm quite curious myself to find out why I'm getting these results (or perceived results).

Has anyone else given it a try?
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post #1614 of 2973 Old 06-08-2006, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I hope you do....as I'm quite curious myself to find out why I'm getting these results (or perceived results).

Has anyone else given it a try?

Didn't work for me, on my 344XBR960 - I got a heavy red cast

My settings are:

RDRV = 45
GDRV = 31
BDRV = 22
RCUT = 32
GCUT = 22
BCUT = 27
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post #1615 of 2973 Old 06-08-2006, 06:19 AM
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Hey KenTech, I've come across a very interesting discovery. I was having a lot of problems with my games and other sources looking washed out, I figured it had to do with the UBOF so I went ahead and lowered that to 0 with SBRT at 29. I then finally decided to run a Pluge pattern and see if I could solve the problem, the actual problem was that my SBRT was way too high supprisingly enough.It came from the factory at a default of 18, so that's where I started it at during the test pattern and sure enough it was set perfectly. Now all I have to do is adjust the UBOF for individual inputs (cause some are set too high and others are not set at all), my set was manufactured in November of last year so I'm wondering if maybe on the newer versions of these sets some of the default SM settings are pretty close to dead on. Of course some are not, but they're all pretty simple and easy to address. Once again I am using a 30HS420, I just thought that this information might help some who are having a problem with the washed out colors. I'm also interested in how you went about getting your grayscale dead on, I've read this entire post and I've seen that you have taken many different approaches towards this goal I was wondering what the breakthrough approach was. Maybe I missed it somewhere, it gets a little tedious looking through so many posts at times. Also I plugged in some of the settings that you have used on your setup for color and I must say that it brings mine pretty close to perfect. I'll try some more tweaking when I get out of my Visual Basic class today.
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It is important to understand that Ken, and others have explained the adjustments and what they do. They have even explained adjustments they have made and the results of those adjustments. No two TVs will end up with all the settings the same.

No two TVs will display exactly the same even with the same equipment connected. The tolerances and design variables in components and continuous revisions in consumer electronics circuit designs make this nearly impossible.

The output signal of a DVD, STB, PC or game box will be slightly different (even with two identical units produced at the same time on the assembly line), the same goes for the TV. There are so many factors that affect settings, especially black level, brightness/sub brightness, that settings one uses will not be right for others. It could be close, or not. I have done a few of the 960s and none of the settings were exactly the same.

While this thread is very informative on the what and how-to, you still need to know what you are doing to get accurate results.

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post #1617 of 2973 Old 06-08-2006, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptchristensen View Post

Didn't work for me, on my 344XBR960 - I got a heavy red cast

My settings are:

RDRV = 45
GDRV = 31
BDRV = 22
RCUT = 32
GCUT = 22
BCUT = 27

I wouldn't expect my settings to match from set to set. I would guess that virtually everyone's values for an accurate grey scale would be different using these guidelines. The point was to try get an get an accurate grey scale starting with RDRV and RCUT at 63 each, then only adjusting green and blue, trying to keep the corresponding _DRV and _CUT values as close as possible.

Has anyone tried to do this, succesfully gotten a good greyscale, and then compared the results with their previous settings?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I wouldn't expect my settings to match from set to set. I would guess that virtually everyone's values for an accurate grey scale would be different using these guidelines. The point was to try get an get an accurate grey scale starting with RDRV and RCUT at 63 each, then only adjusting green and blue, trying to keep the corresponding _DRV and _CUT values as close as possible.

Has anyone tried to do this, succesfully gotten a good greyscale, and then compared the results with their previous settings?

What color temp are you looking for with this method? Grayscale is the proper balance of Red-Green-Blue (for the desired color temperature) at each luminance level from black to white.

It doesn't work to just pick a setting for one color cut/drive and do a grayscale. There is an interaction between the cuts and drives. Your method may work at 30IRE and 80IRE, but may be off at 20/70. The art here, is to make the adjustments so the grayscale is uniform (minimal error) D65, from 10IRE to 100IRE, not just at one or two points. Cuts affect black levels and also impact drive settings. Every TV will display a different R/G/B luminance level due to phosphor and electronic variations.

Grayscale, to be uniform and accurate, needs to be done with calibrated measuring equipment. In addition to the test equipment reading the color of the grayscale, it also can/will measure the luminance, to calculate the gamma curve.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
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post #1619 of 2973 Old 06-08-2006, 04:06 PM
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What color temp are you looking for with this method? Grayscale is the proper balance of Red-Green-Blue (for the desired color temperature) at each luminance level from black to white.

Well, I'm using the test xIRE thru 100IRE from the AVIA disc for greyscale, which is NTSC, so the color temperature would be D65.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

It doesn't work to just pick a setting for one color cut/drive and do a grayscale. There is an interaction between the cuts and drives. Your method may work at 30IRE and 80IRE, but may be off at 20/70. The art here, is to make the adjustments so the grayscale is uniform (minimal error) D65, from 10IRE to 100IRE, not just at one or two points. Cuts affect black levels and also impact drive settings. Every TV will display a different R/G/B luminance level due to phosphor and electronic variations.

I checked the greyscale in increments of 10 from black to 100IRE. There is virtually no coloration, except that which occurs from the slight uneveness of color purity that, I believe, virtually all of these sets have to some degree. I am aware that _CUT affects black levels, but it is very slight according the black level test pattern I'm using with AVIA. I have calibrated black level with the settings I came up with both before and after repeatedly to confirm.

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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Grayscale, to be uniform and accurate, needs to be done with calibrated measuring equipment

Or a picky eye that knows what to look for thanks to Ken's method and insights on the subject. Is mine perfect? I doubt it, but I bet it is within an acceptable range of say plus or minus 200 to 250 from 6500. No way to know for sure without a color measuring device, but I feel it is close enough not to justify the expense.
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post #1620 of 2973 Old 06-08-2006, 04:21 PM
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It doesn't work to just pick a setting for one color cut/drive and do a grayscale.

Well, it seems that with NTSC, Red always has the highest value, which is why I chose it over the other two colors. I assume an accurate grey scale could not be achieved if I started with setting blues (or green) at 63, and only adjusted the values of green and red, for example.

The only reason I decided to try this was because according to my black level test patterns, the _CUT settings increased shadow detail with dramatically less washout than equivalent shadow detail increase achieved by raising SBRT. I was experimenting - that's all. I do not claim this is the "correct" or ideal method for setting greyscale; it seems clear to me that with these guidelines, setting greyscale would be much more difficult and restrictive.
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