THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 55 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1621 of 2968 Old 06-08-2006, 03:33 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I checked the greyscale in increments of 10 from black to 100IRE. There is virtually no coloration, except that which occurs from the slight uneveness of color purity....

They all might look gray to you, but you really don't know what temperature it really is and how close each one is to the other......

Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Or a picky eye that knows what to look for thanks to Ken's method and insights on the subject. Is mine perfect? I doubt it, but I bet it is within an acceptable range of say plus or minus 200 to 250 from 6500. No way to know for sure without a color measuring device, but I feel it is close enough not to justify the expense.

Doing this visually with out a D65 reference, I would say more like a +/- 1000K and no telling what reference point.

You just need to be comfortable with the colors you are seeing. Can they be adjusted more accurately? probably. Do you need it more accurate? Only you know the answer........

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1622 of 2968 Old 06-08-2006, 03:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RWetmore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brick, New Jersey
Posts: 3,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

They all might look gray to you, but you really don't know what temperature it really is and how close each one is to the other......

I'm not disputing this, but I don't see any coloration and the white looks pure white.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Doing this visually with out a D65 reference, I would say more like a +/- 1000K and no telling what reference point.

Well, I'd be willing bet it is much closer than this. As good as what a color measuring device can achieve, no. Even if a color measuring device confirmed it was accurate, I would still consider it to be somewhat lucky, and not a result of the eye being as good as the colorimeter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

You just need to be comfortable with the colors you are seeing. Can they be adjusted more accurately? probably. Do you need it more accurate? Only you know the answer........

I'm not looking for comfortable looking colors. I'm looking for unnatural coloration and/or slight pushes in the red, green, or blue direction. If one is persistant and anal enough, I believe they can get pretty close to 6500.
RWetmore is offline  
post #1623 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
KenTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

They all might look gray to you, but you really don't know what temperature it really is and how close each one is to the other......

This matters much less than professional calibrators want you to believe. The human eye is adaptive and sees as white a considerable range of color temperatures. If the viewing environment is suitably dim (not black!), within a broad range the eye sees a satisfying white based on the actual maximum brightness displayed on-screen. If that is 6600K, who cares? Pink and greenish contamination seem to be less well tolerated, so freedom from those color biases is desirable. 6500K seems to be nearly in the middle of the range of acceptable "whites," so it is a reasonable goal if you have an instrument that you can use to calibrate -- that is, you might as well aim for 6500K.
Quote:


Doing this visually with out a D65 reference, I would say more like a +/- 1000K and no telling what reference point.

Sure. But there are some natural references, as I have mentioned before. Dense clouds illuminated by the sun at mid-day in an otherwise blue sky (fair-weather cumulus, etc.) are between 6500K and 6600K and have no contamination. I have personally calibrated two different computer monitors to 6500K each using two different calibration devices from two different manufacturers and compared with the "cloud" standard. The correspondence is very close and entirely adequate.
Quote:


You just need to be comfortable with the colors you are seeing. Can they be adjusted more accurately? probably. Do you need it more accurate?

Which raises the questions of, What is "accurate"? What do you mean by "need"? I'm aware of the meme that only 6500K is "accurate," but no one has made a case for that that isn't easily refuted. It is certainly refuted by the fact of the eye's adaptivity. Then "need" is defined by the eye. If, in addition to this, one has an emotional "need" to know that their display is exactly 6500K, well . . . that's their problem, isn't it, and they can pay big $$ to accomplish this with professional help. The purpose of this thread is to discuss as many methods as possible that an enterprising individual can use to make their own adjustments at minimal cost and with maximal empowerment (i.e. educatioin).
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Even if a color measuring device confirmed it was accurate, I would still consider it to be somewhat lucky, and not a result of the eye being as good as the colorimeter. I'm not looking for comfortable looking colors. I'm looking for unnatural coloration and/or slight pushes in the red, green, or blue direction. If one is persistant and anal enough, I believe they can get pretty close to 6500.

This is the whole point and spirit of this thread and the knowledge it can provide.

KenTech
"We all get smart slowly."
KenTech is offline  
post #1624 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 01:36 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Need is a relative term. It can be a state of mind or a requirement. Just depends upon the situation.
Does everyone need their TV calibrated? NO, some want theirs calibrated.
Do you need a car with 500HP? Depends on what you are going to do with it.
Do you need test equipment? Depends upon what you need to measure or adjust. (do you want your Doctor to calibrate their medical monitors, used for diagnosis, by eye, without the proper calibration equipment?)

A color analyzer is the only way to reasonably measure grayscale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. Additionally, with the color analyzer it is very easy to see plus green errors throughout the range and adjust accordingly.

Basically this situation is like taking a bearing ball and checking for size and roundness. You are checking with a tape measure, I have a micrometer. To you, the bearing is 3/8 and is round. To me, it is .370 +/- .004.

D65 is used because it is the industry standard most film based material is mastered to. Therefore, calibrating the entire grayscale as close to D65 as possible is intended to yield a picture displayed with the colors the director intended.

Professional calibration is not for everyone. Those who choose to have a professional calibrate their TVs grayscale, should expect accuracy in the calibration, not a looks close enough. DIY is a viable option for many, knowing they are accepting their results and tolerances as good enough/close enough, accurate or not.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1625 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
KenTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

D65 is used because it is the industry standard most film based material is mastered to. Therefore, calibrating the entire grayscale as close to D65 as possible is intended to yield a picture displayed with the colors the director intended.

The common "director's intent" argument has no meaning at this link in the video-reporduction chain. If the eye perceives the intended whites in the video as white, and the releasing company has included white in an accurate DVD transfer, then slight off-coloration for effect (common) will be perceived exactly as intended, as the eye will calibrate to the saturated whites in the video just as it would in the theater. See The Matrix for an excellent example. Color biases in film are generally not applied to all tones evenly, since, in that case, no color bias would be perceived if it is subtle. It is the mid-tones that are biased slightly in color. Since the eye calibrates to the lightest tones (clear film, saturated video-white) if they are present, "cool" or "warm" or undersaturated color deviations are reproduced beautifully. Bottom line: It is the relative coloration of the different tones in a film that establish the "director's intent," as it does in the movie theater.
Quote:


Those who choose to have a professional calibrate their TVs grayscale, should expect accuracy in the calibration, not a looks close enough. DIY is a viable option for many, knowing they are accepting their results and tolerances as good enough/close enough, accurate or not.

Again, you (a professional calibrator) are claiming special value for this "accuracy" in color temperature, and I maintain that it is a rationally indefensible position in spite of its use as a selling point. If a critical eye perceives a specific display's white-temperature as impressively natural and correct, it is good enough! It is likely better than any theater presentation, which is commonly greenish, too dim for great color, and with a grayish black level.

On the other hand, grayscale linearity is much more important, IMHO, and instrumentation in the hands of an expert will make this easier, but expensive. The DIY enthusiast will have to obsess somewhat over stepped-grayscale patterns on DVD and watch some B/W video to satisfy themselves that they've got it right. I know -- it certainly took me a while to get there. But they can get it right, as many of us who post here can attest.

People who have no interest in fiddling with the service codes -- and the discipline it requires not to screw things up -- are well-advised to pay a calibrator to do the job, as should those folks who find themselves adrift without success, confused, or frustrated by having tried. That's why any of us pay someone to do any job for us, no?

KenTech
"We all get smart slowly."
KenTech is offline  
post #1626 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 02:17 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RWetmore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brick, New Jersey
Posts: 3,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

A color analyzer is the only way to reasonably measure grayscale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. Additionally, with the color analyzer it is very easy to see plus green errors throughout the range and adjust accordingly.

Basically this situation is like taking a bearing ball and checking for size and roundness. You are checking with a tape measure, I have a micrometer. To you, the bearing is 3/8 and is round. To me, it is .370 +/- .004.

Well, if there is no practical performance loss, would +/- .004 matter? Acceptable tolerance ranges are are usually based on a cost/performance analysis. In the case of a TV calibration, such precision isn't going to significantly improve the performance and ultimate enjoyment of the product, in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

D65 is used because it is the industry standard most film based material is mastered to. Therefore, calibrating the entire grayscale as close to D65 as possible is intended to yield a picture displayed with the colors the director intended.

We know this - that's why we are using test patterns and scales which are mastered to the D65 standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Professional calibration is not for everyone. Those who choose to have a professional calibrate their TVs grayscale, should expect accuracy in the calibration, not a looks close enough.

Of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

DIY is a viable option for many, knowing they are accepting their results and tolerances as good enough/close enough, accurate or not.

Or plenty accurate enough for practical application.
RWetmore is offline  
post #1627 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 03:59 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Well, if there is no practical performance loss, would +/- .004 matter? Acceptable tolerance ranges are are usually based on a cost/performance analysis. In the case of a TV calibration, such precision isn't going to significantly improve the performance and ultimate enjoyment of the product, in my opinion.

I guess I should have used different numbers, the point being 3/8" = .375" not .370".

Intended application has a big impact. Aerospace versus house building tolerances are quite different. As for the TV, the eye can distinguish a .004 variation in the CIE coordinates where D65 is .313x/.329y. My life would be much simpler if I calibrated to 6500K (a range) instead of D65 (a point). If I can't get the TV to track evenly at D65 (most of the time), I make every effort to minimize the plus green errors throughout the range.

There is a standard, D65, if anyone pays for a calibration, they deserve the calibration to be as close to D65 as possible, no ifs ands or buts.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1628 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 04:50 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

The common "director's intent" argument has no meaning at this link in the video-reporduction chain. If the eye perceives the intended whites in the video as white, and the releasing company has included white in an accurate DVD transfer, then slight off-coloration for effect (common) will be perceived exactly as intended, as the eye will calibrate to the saturated whites in the video just as it would in the theater.

It has all its meaning here. The movie is mastered for white to be D65, not 9300K, not 7000K. "Close enough" is a tolerance you are willing to accept and the variation, however big it is, is not important to you, that is fine and acceptable. Many of the TVs on the market are set as high as 9000K (warm), and the general public sees that as white, however it is not the white as white is mastered on film and DVD. Directors have film developed and processed in different manners to provide specific visual effects they want to present. The only way to know you are seeing what the Director intended, is to know your display is as close to D65 as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Bottom line: It is the relative coloration of the different tones in a film that establish the "director's intent," as it does in the movie theater.

All the more reason to accurately reproduce white at D65 and have accurate color decoding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Again, you (a professional calibrator) are claiming special value for this "accuracy" in color temperature, and I maintain that it is a rationally indefensible position in spite of its use as a selling point.

I deliver what the customer is paying for. It is OK for you to believe that the D65 white in a movie looks white to you when displayed at something other than D65, for that matter you, or any of us, might be slightly color blind. Men, more than women, are colorblind to green, to some extent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

If a critical eye perceives a specific display's white-temperature as impressively natural and correct, it is good enough! It is likely better than any theater presentation, which is commonly greenish, too dim for great color, and with a grayish black level.

"Good enough" again is an acceptance level, not the standard. You don't want you surgeon say, "looks like we got it all, good enough". TV calibration is not surgery, however the customers deserve the same level of performance, the best we can do.

There are many reading this forum for information and to learn. Some are veterans and some are new to video. Some are DIYers and some just want to understand the concepts. We should to cater to all. These threads need to be unbiased to retain participation and encourage input. I have never said you can't do a DIY calibration, I have indicated the variances might be greater than you think, and I say this from personal experience with my own Marquee CRT projector. I thought I had it close, but was I wrong. It looked great, but now it really looks much better.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1629 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
KenTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

The movie is mastered for white to be D65, not 9300K, not 7000K. . . . Many of the TVs on the market are set as high as 9000K (warm), and the general public sees that as white, however it is not the white as white is mastered on film and DVD.

This is a straw-man argument. Nowhere in this thread is anyone advocating a color temperature (CT) setting that far from the decent mean of 6500K.
Quote:


Directors have film developed and processed in different manners to provide specific visual effects they want to present. The only way to know you are seeing what the Director intended, is to know your display is as close to D65 as possible.

Wrong. You are pretending that the human eye has no adaptive power whatsoever. Linear grayscale reproduction is far more important.
Quote:


All the more reason to accurately reproduce white at D65 and have accurate color decoding.

You are confusing relative color perceived by the adapted eye and absolute color measured by an instrument.
Quote:


I deliver what the customer is paying for.

I should hope so. But first you have to make the case that exactly 6500 is "correct" rather than a good mean target and that a customer should pay for this extraordinary accuracy.
Quote:


It is OK for you to believe that the D65 white in a movie looks white to you when displayed at something other than D65, for that matter you, or any of us, might be slightly color blind.

Hilarious, Glen! You are now equating "believing" with "perceiving." And are you proposing that the people who don't agree with you might be color blind? That's it! You've hit on it. Those of us who are color-blind don't need 6500K!
Quote:


"Good enough" again is an acceptance level, not the standard. You don't want you surgeon say, "looks like we got it all, good enough".

. . . and so the stakes are as high as surgery? If the set is not 6500K, there's no hope of enjoying it? Another straw man.
Quote:


. . . the customers deserve the same level of performance, the best we can do.

For what a calibrator charges, I should hope so. But you treat television as though it is a precision process, and it most certainly is not, as anyone who watches it can tell. I understand the sales pitch, Glen. But this is probably not the right forum thread to voice it.
Quote:


There are many reading this forum for information and to learn. Some are veterans and some are new to video. Some are DIYers and some just want to understand the concepts. We should to cater to all. These threads need to be unbiased to retain participation and encourage input.

Actually this thread was specifically started to cater to those folks who have Sony CRT sets of DA-4 chassis design who wish to make their own adjustments via the service menu. My interest is in keeping it agenda-neutral and scientifically correct. You have, for example, ignored the established matter of color adaptation.
Quote:


I have never said you can't do a DIY calibration, I have indicated the variances might be greater than you think, and I say this from personal experience with my own Marquee CRT projector. I thought I had it close, but was I wrong. It looked great, but now it really looks much better.

Many of us without instrumentation can make the same claim and keep $$ in our poclets. The scope of this particular discussion is very narrow: the purported "requirement" of a precise 6500K color temperature of white. No other aspect of your calibration routine is being questioned. If you are already doing a complete calibration, why not aim for 6500K, indeed!

KenTech
"We all get smart slowly."
KenTech is offline  
post #1630 of 2968 Old 06-09-2006, 10:37 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ken, your arrogance, narrow mindedness and lack of willingness to accept the existence of another, measurable means to achieve grayscale calibration is overwhelming. You are definitely possessed by a ravenous ego and the frequent use of wrong in reference to others, implies an insatiable need to be right.

There apparently should be a disclaimer on your thread stating it only should be read by owners of the DA-4 chassis wanting to do a DIY calibration only. Anyone disagreeing with or having an opinion or calibration method different than that of the author will be severely chastised. Heaven forbid that anyone would apply any information here to another TV.

It is also very interesting that you refuse to believe or acknowledge there is actually a standard for the color of white and that it exists as a measurable point. Is it a requirement for pleasurable viewing? NO, just a calibration target or reference.

It's totally insane you think anyone, yourself included, can look at a TV displaying white of any color and the eye will adapt to it being a different color of white. I will agree, the eye and brain will tell you it is white, however it won't change the color temperature you are seeing. You just don't know it isn't D65. If you were to place a TV displaying D65 next to a TV displaying, say, 6800K, for example, the eye will see the two different whites, plain and simple.

You profess you are more accurate with your white balance adjustment by looking at clouds in the sky, and preach that everyone can and should do it for them selves, but you never have measured your results. Some people value their time and would prefer to have it done in a few hours, nothing wrong with that. My guess, if someone measured your settings and found an unacceptable measurement, for a professional calibration, you would tell them there $10K test equipment is wrong.

One of the most accurate 960 grayscales I have achieved, varied between 6440K to 6550K from 30 IRE to 100 IRE, 10 IRE was 5838K and 20 IRE was 6220K these readings were influenced by the light in the room and the color of the walls causing a -blue situation. We can't get them perfect with the test equipment, we can get close, minimize errors and we are able to acquire the calibration data and provide it to customers, documenting what they have paid for.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1631 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 06:22 AM
Member
 
fred33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
In an orthodox adjustment process from the service manual, 2170D-2 #0-HCNT centers the raster (scanned area) on the CRT. Then #1-HPOS centers the picture (video frame) on the raster. You can push the video frame so far to the right or left that it appears to "wrap" back on itself. Is this what you mean?


Not quite.....
I have the service manual and when I follow the set up procedures to center the raster, the right side of the raster has a double image. That image will go away when I turn the HBLK back to 1 from 0.

Las Vegas
fred33 is offline  
post #1632 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 06:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
williamtassone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,030
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
"Have I missed the battle"- Commodus



Glen,

Ken has made a wealth of information available to the common man and has alleviated the suffering of not only I but hundreds of other Sony owners. Knowledge that otherwise might be privy to industry professionals such as yourself is now accessible to the commoner.Even in Australia this thread is frequently referred to. If it weren't for Ken my XBR910 would be in the trash heap and I would probably be seeing a Cardiologist by now!

Cheers!!
williamtassone is offline  
post #1633 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 06:59 AM
Member
 
fred33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
As a DY'er, I have learned a lot from this forum. I have even had an ISF pro (he gets paid) here to adjust my set. My experience is that the ISF person has the color detection instruments to guide him to make color adjustments. He can do this to all of my inputs in less than 1 hour. After that, what is there?
I have had the ISF person attempt to correct the geometry and a technician from a local company try to fix my geometry. In BOTH cases, it was hit or miss with them. Their knowledge of where to start first and procedures to follow were no better than what I have learned on here, and on my own. Maybe this is a case of SONY hiding the proper plan or sequence for adjusting the geometry, I am not sure.

In this forum I have found valuable information that has helped and some sketchy information that has confused.

If I were a certified ISF calibrator, I would not want to give out all of my information here, for obvious reasons. (we all want to make some money). On the other hand if you are an ISF calibrator and come in these forums, may I assume you come in to help and share?
As far as post from those who are not ISF calibrators, I see a common thread. That thread attempts a give and take of ideas and information.

As for me, I still wrestle with geometry issues. My latest "trick" was to cut a piece of plexi glass to fit my TV screen. On the plexi glass I drew a calibration pattern of squares and one centered circle. I put it up to my screen and try to match it with a pattern generated from my cd player, or my computer. It has helped a lot, as I am unable to tell if all squares on an generated pattern are the same size on my screen.

KD-34XBR960

Las Vegas
fred33 is offline  
post #1634 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 09:14 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
No doubt there is a lot of valuable information in this thread going way beyond the ISF calibration scope. While it is directed at the DA-4 chassis, information and concepts in here apply to many other displays. I have agreed many times to the value of this thread. Ken is overly obsessed with the idea that a ISF Calibration is useless and a waste of money, "his" personal opinion. On top of that, most of the input I have tried to contribute or opinions I have expressed have been met by Ken with a seemingly favorite word, WRONG. He is clearly expressing that this is his parade.

Another misunderstanding seems to be the actual scope of an ISF Calibration. Advanced geometry is something that is not supported by the ISF. This is generally referred to service technicians. Geometry is/can be a complex process and one that many repair techs don't even want to do. It is very time consuming. I have a background with CRT projectors and therefore, offer advanced geometry to those who desire the service, within limits. The goal of the basic ISF calibration is to take a video system (TV, DVD, STB etc.), that is working properly, and adjust the picture for its best performance including grayscale. The $225-$250 for an ISF tech to calibrate one input is not all that costly for the few hours of work and travel. Many calibrators offer varying levels of calibration service. At this time, I don't open the 960 and adjust the magnets.

I can easily refrain from any further comments in this thread. Ken seems to make it apparent he doesn't want my participation or differing opinions. My time may be better spent with others.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1635 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 09:37 AM
Member
 
fred33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
While I may disagree with the cost of and ISF "calibration" and the actual time needed to do the job, it is just that. It is my "opinion" . I know the equipment is expensive and I know there is travel involved. So, for me, the question becomes, am I paying for calibration, or the equipment and travel. For now, those that have the equipment and the training are few and far between and of course that means the price reflects the need versus the availablility.

Like I said, this is just my opinion, and it is not meant to provoke or insight any kind of anger or negative response.

As far as geometry goes, it has been very hard to find the information that I believe I need to do a decent job. Having said that, I have had two service techs attempt adjustment and left with part of my pic "jittery". I have corrected that problem myself through information here and on the net in general.

One day I hope to find all the info I need to make the corrections I want. It seemes to me that anyone who attempts to correct my geometry does not bring with them the expertise to get it done right with out "guessing".
This has all been my experience, and as they say, your experience may vary depending.

So, keep posting info and helping out.

Las Vegas
fred33 is offline  
post #1636 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 10:03 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You get what you pay for.....a cheap quick calibration will be just that, cheap and quick. it takes time to get things right, especially if you don't want to make a return visit. One thing you need to keep in mind is the service menu adjustments were put there by the design engineers. They are usually the only ones that know what they do. As needed, through problems, they may tell factory service techs to adjust something. There is no overall reference telling what each adjustment is, know one really knows. Some discoveries are based upon experimentation.

Rates charged for calibration are fairly consistent. A calibrator that really does a good job and spends the necessary time isn't making much money. Yes the fees help cover the misc expenses, research time, travel time, cost of equipment, taxes, training, etc. Experience will generally surface in reduced time spent calibrating, it won't guarantee a better calibration.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1637 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 10:22 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

Not quite.....
I have the service manual and when I follow the set up procedures to center the raster, the right side of the raster has a double image. That image will go away when I turn the HBLK back to 1 from 0.

HBLK=0 turns off the horizontal edge "blanking shutters" on the sides : 2170D3 LBLK+RBLK. This allows allows you to see the true edges of the raster, and thus center the raster.

In which case the double image on the right side that occurs with HBLK=0 occurs just as Ken described.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #1638 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 10:38 AM
AVS Special Member
 
justsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 2,689
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
KenTech & GlenC,

You are both awesome, as are your contributions here. No slight to GlenC, but the "tip of the hat" must go to KenTech for the passion, time and energy spent on this thread.

I try never to say never, but I doubt there will ever come a time when I will understand things at KenTech's level. I definitely can read and appreciate all that's written here, but it's not in my plans to become that good. Because of this, I will eventually get my set calibrated by a pro. And I can think of no pro more qualified and more passionate for display purity than GlenC. If Ken lived close by, I would probably try to coerce him into coming over and helping me with my set. But that's not the spirit of this thread, as he has tried his best to give all owners the knowledge to do it themselves.

I feel badly when the conflicting views reach a fever pitch like this week. In simpleton's terms, it's kinda like watching mommy and daddy fight. I have so much respect for both players. But I must also respect their right to disagree, sometimes strongly disagree. I also believe that good ultimately comes from these battles, which ultimately benefits us all.

Cheers to KenTech and GlenC!
justsc is offline  
post #1639 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 11:47 AM
Member
 
fred33's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

HBLK=0 turns off the horizontal edge "blanking shutters" on the sides : 2170D3 LBLK+RBLK. This allows allows you to see the true edges of the raster, and thus center the raster.

In which case the double image on the right side that occurs with HBLK=0 occurs just as Ken described.

What?

I believe Ken was trying to see if the seemingly mirror image on the right side of the raster was caused by the picture pallet being moved to far. All I can say is, I set up the raster to center using HCNT and following the service manual. All the manual says is to set NBLK to zero and the AGNG to 2. It also wants you to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31. When I do this, the right side of the raster has a double image.

Ok...this maybe an oooops. I just checked again and it seems its the AGNG setting to 2, that brings up the washed out look and the double image to the right side of the raster.

Las Vegas
fred33 is offline  
post #1640 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
KenTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

I have the service manual and when I follow the set up procedures to center the raster, the right side of the raster has a double image. That image will go away when I turn the HBLK back to 1 from 0.

I guess this is another reason for the usual overscan and blanking the garbage at the edge. When I first did the raster and image centering, I was appalled at how whacked out the raster was on all edges: nonlinearities, weird extra lines, foldovers, etc. So much for a zero overscan on this CRT-TV!

With only 4% overscan and the appropriate blanking to keep the beam off the sides of the CRT, I got my observed picture to be nearly perfect. The proper centering of the raster, and then the video frame on the raster, allows you to minumize the overscan. I don't think I can go any lower than 4% on my set without revealing those edge "special effects." You sorta have to balance things, and it all sounds normal to me.

KenTech
"We all get smart slowly."
KenTech is offline  
post #1641 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 11:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

What?

Just what I said, I see no reason to repeat it.

Quote:


All I can say is, I set up the raster to center using HCNT and following the service manual. All the manual says is to set NBLK to zero and the AGNG to 2. It also wants you to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31.

Yes, I did that as well(I assume you mean HBLK), and noticed Raster was properly centered at the factory on my set.

Quote:


When I do this, the right side of the raster has a double image.

Yes, the "double image" on my set with HBLK=0 extends about 5" or so from Right side of raster, of course I would have never seen it had I not temporarily turned off the blanking shutters using "HBLK=0" to center the raster.

And, if you set HBLK to 1 (again, turns on the Horizontal blanking shutters just as I said it does, and just as has been covered a few times earlier in this thread) the "double image goes away, just as it should .... You'll see the same thing if you set HBLK to "1" and "RBLK" to either it's maximum or minimum value(I forget which one - I think Minimum.), or somewhat "near it".

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #1642 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 05:13 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
DSperber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Marina Del Rey, CA, USA
Posts: 5,440
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by fred33 View Post

I set up the raster to center using HCNT and following the service manual. All the manual says is to set NBLK to zero and the AGNG to 2. It also wants you to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31. When I do this, the right side of the raster has a double image.

Where (i.e. what page or section, of the service manual for what set) are the instructions to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31? is this just to begin with, or to end up with?

Clearly these are adjustment controls meaning they are intended to be tweaks, not constants for us to live with.

Just in passing, I did my 1080i H/V position/size and overscan tweaks using a 1920x1080i test pattern projected by DisplayMate for Windows Video Edition on my PC, connected to my XBR960 from the DVI-to-component output of my PC's ATI Radeon 9800 Pro video card. The ATI Catalyst video drivers had the XBR960 set as a second monitor running at 1080i, 1920x1080 resolution. Other 1080i tweaking values were HBLK=1 and VBLK=1. Associated values at 1080i (also unchanged from the factory defaults) were LBLK=51, RBLK=31, TBLK=4 and BBLK=6.

And at 1080i I ended up with HCNT=32, HPOS=32, HSIZ=41, VPOS=28, and VSIZ=32. I have no anomalies on any of the four edges at 1080i.
DSperber is offline  
post #1643 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 05:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

Where (i.e. what page or section, of the service manual for what set) are the instructions to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31? is this just to begin with, or to end up with?

Pg. 41 - Section 2-8 of KD-30XS955/34XBR960/34XS955/36XS955 service manual.

Setting HCNT/HPOS to 31 isn't really important IMO, other than it being a mid-range value to "start with", such as, say, if you've "lost" the adjustments done at the factory for some reason. However, setting HBLK=0 (or values for RBLK/LBLK that will "get rid" of the side shutters so you can see the true edge of raster) is important. Setting 2170P-2 AGNG temporarily to 2 doesn't seem to actually "move" or effect the posistion or size of raster in any useful way on my set(KD34XBR960, manufactured in PA Jan 2005) for centering raster but I did it anyway when checking centering because it "said so" ...

Here's what it says(sorry for the formatting, it's easier on the eyes if if you look at the chart in the printed version) :

:quote

2-8. H RASTER CENTER ADJUSTMENT
Preparation:
Input a monoscope signal.
Set to NTSC (DRC) mode.

1. Set to Service Mode and adjust as follows:

CXA2170P-2
NO. Name Control Function Data
05 AGNG AGING 1, AGING 2 2

CXA2170D-2
NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data
02 HSIZ Horiz Size 31
01 HPOS Horiz Position 31

CXA2170D-3
NO. Name Control Function Avg. Data
00 HBLK Blanking Enable 0

2. Reduce HSIZ to see sides of raster. (See Figure A)
3. Adjust H-Center with CXA2170D-2.
4. Adjust to the best screen position with H-CENT and write data.
5. Restore aging, HSIZ and HBLK to original condition.

:end quote


Quote:


I have no anomalies on any of the four edges at 1080i.

There shouldn't be any with your settings. However, Set HBLK temporarily to 0 (or LBLK=63/RBLK=0 - unless I have that backwards and it's LBLK=0/RBLK=63 to "remvoe" the "side shutters" that keep the beam from hitting side of the tube) and reduce HSIZ so you can see the true edges of the raster and you'll likely see some "anomalies".

BTW, FWIW(not much) HCNT=38(the setting from the factory) centers the raster on my set(KD34XBR960). I checked it with several different sources, including via setting MID1/BCOL=6 (BCOL=0 is black, BCOL=15 is white) to a higher value, which can be used to create, for example "grey bars" on the side of a 480i DRC processed signal used with "normal" (4x3) screen viewing mode or for a grey background for "twin view".

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #1644 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 05:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
williamtassone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,030
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

...I can easily refrain from any further comments in this thread..
.


you can't do that Glen cause without these heated discussions bums like me wouldn't learn anything!!

If I had an ISF calibrator where I live in Australia I wouldn't have endured 2 years of Sony's trained chimp technicians.

For guys like me, this thread, and everyone in it, is as good as it gets.

Will
williamtassone is offline  
post #1645 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
KenTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

Where (i.e. what page or section, of the service manual for what set) are the instructions to set HPOS and HSIZ to 31? is this just to begin with, or to end up with? . . . Clearly these are adjustment controls meaning they are intended to be tweaks, not constants for us to live with.

The manual (this is section 2.8) commonly does not use very clear English. Those values are temporary starting points.

Suppose you have a TV that is already adjusted (but maybe not perfectly), and now you want to perfectly center the raster and frame. I would first note the original settings of HPOS and HSIZ before proceeding, just for insurance. Then change them to 31 and proceed as the manual says -- temporary values for the purposes of this centering adjustment.

Having performed the centering opeation, you might now have new values for HPOS and HCNT, and so you accept those, and return AGNG to 0 and HBLK to 1. But HSIZ can be returned to the former value, or you can reconsider your overscan, having tweaked those messy edges. (And readjust the blanking shutters.) I was able to reduce overscan to 3-4% from the much higher value it had been. There's no magic value for HSIZ. On my 36XS955 it ended up at 30. HCNT ended up at 36, and HPOS at 25.

I believe the temporary AGNG=2 switch renders all of the raster visible, including what is normally hiding in the blanked vertical- and horizintal-retrace intervals.

KenTech
"We all get smart slowly."
KenTech is offline  
post #1646 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 07:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I believe the temporary AGNG=2 switch renders all of the raster visible, including what is normally hiding in the blanked vertical- and horizintal-retrace intervals.

Could be, or perhaps it could have a "different" effect per set model(4x3 tube vs 16x9 tube/etc).

As I noted in my last post : on my KD34XBR960 as I recall(and I do recall as I made a note of it) I could see no discernable difference in the "size" or appearance of edges of the raster concerning setting AGNG=2(even though I did so anyway) instead of AGNG=0 while centering raster(yes, with HBLK=0 and HSIZ set so I could see both edges), and while looking at the horizontal edges of raster.

Either way, HCNT=38 centers the raster on my set, with 2170P2/AGNG=0 or 2. Not that it matters, as it's no big deal to set AGNG temporarily to 2 while centering raster .....

I don't recall what I experienced with this with the vertical edges of raster and VBLK=0/etc.

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #1647 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 08:51 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
GlenC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles - Whittier, CA
Posts: 2,555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A couple of general points here. These are magnetic deflection devices and to a slight extent, geo magnetism will affect alignment differently in different parts of the globe. The settings of the magnetic rings on the neck of the tube can also affect centering. This is why a setting of 31 is right for one TV and 38 or something else will yield the same results on another TV.

As for the AGNG, if memory serves me, it totally illuminates the full raster even if the image doesn't fill the raster. This can be helpful at times. Re-configuring the geometry is not for the casual tweaker. Every adjustment can come into play during a major re-configuration, size, phase, linearity, position and on and on and on. There is so much ping-pong adjusting it is a lengthy exercise in patience and slowly converging on the desired result. I have adjusted the geometry and centering on the 960 to achieve 0% overscan, however the input signals and programming doesn't work well with 0%. This is a major reason why many newer digital, fixed pixel displays are being produced with 2% overscan and not adjustable to 0%.

Glen Carter
Home Theater Calibration
www.ISFHT.com
GlenC is offline  
post #1648 of 2968 Old 06-10-2006, 10:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Nitewatchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Middletown, Ohio
Posts: 6,286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

As for the AGNG, if memory serves me, it totally illuminates the full raster even if the image doesn't fill the raster.

I think that certianly makes sense. In my case, I believe I was using an "Image" which does fill the entire raster, so perhaps that is why I did not notice a difference in raster "size", or any differences at the edge of the raster with AGNG=0 vs. AGNG=2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Every adjustment can come into play during a major re-configuration, size, phase, linearity, position and on and on and on.

Quote:


The settings of the magnetic rings on the neck of the tube can also affect centering.

Excellent post Glen(in it's entirety) ! And, I don't think the first quote above concerning how "every adjustment can come into play" can be stressed enough for those who may not be completely familiar with such "issues", and also the importance of writing down the factory adjusted values before you change anything, in case you need to go back to it ...

Having went through this on another set/model of DV-CRT I own, which was extremely poorly aligned at the factory in this regard -- and, given that on that set, after much time and effort I was able to make significant improvements from the factory settings, I am certianly very aware of everything you've said ... I would not want to add up the time I spent with deflection issues on that particular set .. However, given the set was an inexpenisve model, seeing the results of the improvements made was quite "satisfiying" ...

Anyhow -- Concerning my Sony DA-4 Chassis set(KD34XBR960) - On my particular set -- a few things I've noticed which I think are along those lines follow :

While HCNT=38 (the factory adjusted value) centers raster horizontally on my set, HCNT=40 offers slightly(very slighly) improved horizontal linearity. As another example, change "SLIN" value, and I(and I expect everyone else who changes it) will need to adjust HSIZ as well for proper aspect ratio.

As another example, the value used for VPOS effects geometry(SCRL doesn't) : perhaps most visably to an extent somewhat similar(but still "different") to the effects of "PPHA", and perhaps in a slightly "different" way, somewhat similar to the effects of VANG/LANG, and also I believe the "straightness" of horizontal lines are effected slightly by VPOS as well. I have in fact spent a bit of time trying to see if I can find a value for VPOS that makes things "better" than the factory value(as a similar adjustment on another model set made for quite an improvement) -- enough time to say with confidence the factory value of 26 is best ....

---------------------------


On my set, I suspect the permalloy assemblies(magnets - i.e. "chevron magnets") placed on the back of the tube in various places at the factory may also be a factor concerning "geometry" issues, particluarly perhaps why I expect It may be difficult to improve upon the factory adjusted SM values concerning a couple of "small" distortions, given the alignment in this regard already performed at the factory.

Luckily, however -- On my particular set, although I have spent a bit of time improving, or trying to improve geometry issues(various small "distortions", lets say), and I have been able to achieve some improvement while making sure I haven't made anything "worse" -- more improvement probably really isn't necessary, nor do I feel motivated to spend much more time on it.

Thankfully for the most part it seems they did a fairly good job with alignment of this set at the factory, perhaps especially in regards to deflection, or "geometry". Concerning effects of Earth's magnetic field, perhaps it is beneficial to some very small degree that I'm only a few hundred miles West of the plant in Eastern PA where the set was assembled, as I believe the effects of the Earth's magnetic field should be extremely similar, and, my set does face west(not because I planned it that way, just by luck I suppose), which I believe I had read is how the set is to be placed for alignment ....

For instance : Vertical Linearity(as evidenced by "measuring" the distance between horizontal lines with a cross hatch pattern up) was/is right on the money from the factory. And most thankfully, there are no "bends" in horizontal lines which are "generally" noticable, nor is there much more than a 1/16" or so difference along any Horizontal line in a cross-hatch pattern as measured from say, the bezel as a reference point. Circles in the AVIA 16x9 circle hatch pattern are circles ---- although, with HCNT=38(factory adjusted "default" value on my set) the small right circles are slightly wider than tall, and the small left circles are very slightly taller than wide - not noticable by looking at them really -- but noticable via measurement - They're perfect circles with HCNT=40, and yes, that inprovement in Horizontal linearity (Note: also evidenced by measuring the distance between vertical lines "across the screen" in cross hatch pattern and comparing any differences in different portions of screen)includes using all factory set values being used other than HCNT=40....

On my set(only relevant to my set of course, although perhaps it may be of some small value for folks) --- To quickly summarize What I have done regarding geometry+overscan which has involved changes+improvement (of course, I don't keep any changes that don't offer any improvments) has been :

#1) Reducing overscan to about 4.5%(it was about 8% from the factory - yikes)

#2). changing S-correction parameter slightly -- "SLIN=6" from "SLIN=5" factory value - which not only slightly improved the "straightness" of vertical lines, but also improved horizontal Linearity, as you might imagine.

3). Adjusted Blanking shutters(horizontal+vertical) slightly.

4). For proper AR to result for "zoom" mode, ASPT needed to be changed from factory value of "43" to "52". The factory default value of "43" results in "squished" circles(wider than they are tall, although proper AR/proper circles occur in say "full" or "normal" mode), including with all "factory" settings used elsewhere ..... I did find that rather odd, surely folks would rather have more of the top/bottom "cropped off" in "zoom mode" rather than to view programming(including letterboxed 16x9 programs) with distorted aspect ratio ..... As I do not believe it has been mentioned on this thread, I'm am curious if others have ran into this as well ....

I haven't settled yet on "HCNT=40"(slightly improved horizontal linearity) or "HCNT=38"(centers raster), as I haven't yet spent the time to detirmine whether or not HCNT=40 makes anything else "worse", and, I can't really see a difference just "looking at the screen" -- However, with overscan at around 4.5%, I can currently use either value for HCNT while keeping proper centering or causing any problems "on the edges" of the visable frame without changing anything else other than HPOS and RBLK/LBLK.

That was probably more than anyone wanted to know, Sorry!

Jeff
Nitewatchman is offline  
post #1649 of 2968 Old 06-11-2006, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
KenTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 714
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Ken is overly obsessed with the idea that a ISF Calibration is useless and a waste of money, "his" personal opinion. On top of that, most of the input I have tried to contribute or opinions I have expressed have been met by Ken with a seemingly favorite word, WRONG. He is clearly expressing that this is his parade.

No point is analyzing Glen's defensiveness. I have never said that competent calibration is useless, ISF or otherwise. It is a cost/benefit matter, and readers of this forum can make the decision how to spend their dollars. And I have said that several times!

I am, however, dedicated to defending technical points I make with supportive science and other sources. The reason I have little respect for the exaggerated claim of the "need" for exact 6500K white-point calibration is because the scientific evidence is not in its favor but rather argues for the adaptiveness of human vision, aka "color constancy." (Google it!) Meaning that, with a little work, one can come within a few hundred K of 6500K, and (very important) the viewer's eye will never sense that something is wrong. Glen's essential argument that "You gotta get that 6500K just right, or you don't know what you're missing" smacks of the promotion of the calibration profession, of which he is a member. It appears to instill doubt rather than enlightenment -- and of course, certified calibrators are waiting for your call . . .

The argument of "director's intent" is specious. The consistency of professional monitors used to make production and artistic decisions is a certain requirement, and 6500K is the accepted standard. That that must now be extended to the home TV or something is wrong is a claim that has not been made rationally; it just keeps getting repeated. Repetition does not make it true. The science argues that, if grayscale is linear (light and dark tones are the same color) and the white point is near 6500K, you will sense completely any "director's intent." Shall I post a few technical references?
Quote:
Ken seems to make it apparent he doesn't want my participation or differing opinions.

Yeah, like there haven't been a wide variety of differing opinions expressed in this thread! I've learned a lot from these opinions, too, and sometimes thay set me off on a new quest to figure something out -- and I have said so here. All contributors can be proud of the successful history of this thread!

I also stated in the last couple posts of mine:

"People who have no interest in fiddling with the service codes -- and the discipline it requires not to screw things up -- are well-advised to pay a calibrator to do the job, as should those folks who find themselves adrift without success, confused, or frustrated by having tried. That's why any of us pay someone to do any job for us, no?"

and

"The scope of this particular discussion is very narrow: the purported "requirement" of a precise 6500K color temperature of white. No other aspect of [Glen's] calibration routine is being questioned."
Quote:
He is clearly expressing that this is his parade.

It should be clear that I will do what I can to keep this thread aligned with its original purpose as stated in message #1, and that is to be a service to the DIY enthusiast and focused on the Sony direct-view TVs that share the DA-4 chassis and their service codes. Of course, relevant science can be discussed. But there are other threads for other specific purposes, notably one called Display Calibration.

KenTech
"We all get smart slowly."
KenTech is offline  
post #1650 of 2968 Old 06-11-2006, 11:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RWetmore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Brick, New Jersey
Posts: 3,197
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

I guess I should have used different numbers, the point being 3/8" = .375" not .370".

Intended application has a big impact. Aerospace versus house building tolerances are quite different. As for the TV, the eye can distinguish a .004 variation in the CIE coordinates where D65 is .313x/.329y. My life would be much simpler if I calibrated to 6500K (a range) instead of D65 (a point). If I can't get the TV to track evenly at D65 (most of the time), I make every effort to minimize the plus green errors throughout the range.

There is a standard, D65, if anyone pays for a calibration, they deserve the calibration to be as close to D65 as possible, no ifs ands or buts.

Glen,

I have nothing against anyone getting an ISF calibration from someone such as yourself. In fact, I wouldn't even discourage it or try to talk someone out of it if they wanted it. It has value, and many benefit greatly from it. The information in this thread, as clear and detailed as it is, is still far beyond anything the average consumer is willing to delve into.

That being said, I want to make clear that I do not believe that my "DIY" calibration is as accurate as yours would be with all of your knowledge, equipment, etc.. I do believe, however, that it is likely in the right ball park of say a reference of +/- 250 from 6500 with hopefully not more than a 300-500 variation from that reference from 10-100 IRE. I am pleased with the results I have gotten, which are an astronomical improvement of the factory settings.

IMO, this the best thread ever. I have been able to improve my set ten fold, including many things that go significantly beyond what an ISF calibration covers, and I haven't spent a single penny on any of it. On top of this, I have learned a great deal about TV adjustments in general, which will benefit me in the future when I eventually upgrade to another display.
RWetmore is offline  
Reply Direct View (single tube) CRT Displays

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off