THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 58 - AVS Forum
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post #1711 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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OUTRAGEOUSLY LOW SCREEN BRIGHTNESS IN THEATERS!

I know this is slightly OT, but since we are discussing target brightness levels for our TVs, some perspective . . .

A-V "experts" seem to agree that a reasonable brightness for direct-view TVs is 30-40 ft-L for 100% white. Personal preferences and ambient lighting make this a broad target, but there's a number, at least.

THX certified theaters must achieve 16 ft-L for white. That also seems to be a good target for projection-TV home systems, but not so easy to attain for the bigger screens.

Here is a quote from the Runco home page:

About foot-Lamberts:

The method of measurement known as foot-Lamberts, is a measurement related to the brightness of a particular image and is equal to 1 lumen per sq. foot of screen surface. A Spectral Radiometer is required to perform this measurement. The SMPTE (Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) specification for a film-type movie theater is a minimum of 16 foot-Lamberts of brightness.

As research by Lucasfilm Ltd's, Theater Alignment Program has determined, movie theaters typically struggle or fail to achieve this brightness specification, even with the high wattage lamps in their film projectors. Since the screen size is generally much smaller for Home Theater, it is possible to consistently achieve 16 foot-Lamberts and most of the time much higher brightness with Runco projectors.

Experts bemoan that some theaters don'e even reach 10 ft-L, trying for economy of projection equipment. Some may be as low as 6-9 ft-L, they say.

So I took my trusty Minolta Spotmeter-F to a fairly new Regal Cinemas multiplex with stadium seating, to watch Cars. (An absolute delight! Story suitable for kids, but lots of things for adults to appreciate, especially those who love older cars and state-of-the-art computer animation. Lots of sly cultural references!)

The highest reading I could find near screen center in blown whites, highlights, white reflections from objects -- lots of opportunities to measure! -- was EV 5.6. 5.6! At least it wasn't greenish, as is another theater I know.

Let's see -- that's almost off the bottom of the chart I posted! EV 5.6 = 2 ft-L.

Now I am wondering where I can go to experience even a 10 ft-L screen! No wonder movies look so much more vivid at home, where I can get the same subtended viewing angle by sitting close to the TV. The "theater experience" is becoming a downer for me, except for (maybe) the sound.

Sorry for the rant, but I wonder if there's any question why the home-theater market seems to be growing so rapidly! It means to me that the time and bucks I have invested in tweaking my excellent TV are very much worth it! Cheers for all of us! Boo, Hiss to Regal!

KenTech
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post #1712 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 12:49 PM
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Afternoon, everyone.

DSperber - Thank you for your tips. I tried responding twice before but my power went out both times.
The settings you mentioned on page 51 did help me to tweak the screen, allowing me to get the image into the screen more, and get it to look as close to possible as a pro job. Tho the problem with adjusting the 1080i/720p horizontal and vertical settings, still seems to make the 480i/p modes look like an off center (to the left) bubble.

KenTech - This thread has become my addiction. Thank you for this and the many posters here as well.
You mention turning off the shutters on pg. 54 i believe,?, I'm not too sure yet if that allows me to adjust the picture in 1080i/720p, but turning them off still doesn't seem to stop the affects on 480i/p modes. Could there be something I'm missing, or is my model (kv30hs420) just not that flexible in service menu?

If it just can't be fixed in my model, then I'll adjust the settings to look as incredible as I can til a HiDef DVE disc is released. And purchase myself something for 480i/p viewing/gameplay.

Also - Is there anyone here who has adjust the different viewing modes 480i/p, 720p, 1080i separately in (kv30hs420), and can you lend a few tips?

Thank you.
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post #1713 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Your statements challenge my assumptions about how the _CUT parameters work in these TVs, and I'm really grateful that you posted your comments!

My experience is from years of dealing with the physical "cutoff" controls for the red, green, and blue CRT guns. These establish a "turn-on" threshold for each color so that, for a small video signal, say 2 IRE, all the guns begin firing at the same time, preserving correct color balance at the black end of the grayscale. If you crank each one by a bit, you can significantly increase the black level without affecting color.

But it looks to me, too, that the Sony _CUT settings seem to affect the "black-end" color without affecting the brightness of those tones much -- very counterintuitive for me! I've run a couple of brief experiments and I mostly concur with your observations: I jacked my _CUT settings temporarily by 15 points each, pushing red to 61. Increasing each color by the same amount resulted in virtually identical color balance. (At least these parameters seem to track!) Then, while observing a full-range broadcast picture with large dark areas, and with the Color set to Min, I performed a READ on the remote (0 - Enter), which instantly restores the previous settings. The picture did get a bit darker in the shadows, but the color remained the same. So there is some modification of black-level brightness with these _CUT settings, but not much. The color changes brought about by differentially changing the three parameters seem much more obviious than any black-level change. And it seems that the three color settings do track well: equal increments in each of the R, G, and BCUT settings keeps grayscale balance very much the same.

My observations are preliminary, and I have no opinion on what quality changes I may see in the video image, as you have mentioned. I will spend some time investigating this. But my initial tests show that there is an apparent small increase in black level with a large change in all three parameters, and I wonder if this also represents a change in the way video is presented on-screen, not just a level increase.

Next experiment: Use one of the Cool/Warm offsets to replicate those +15 offsets (make each 46) and maybe a compensatory black-level tweak with SBOF. Then, with a simple flick of the remote, I could invoke this series of "new" cutoff settings and check for an image-quality change, too.

I just wanted to validate what you are seeing, RW, and now I must re-think the role that the _CUT settings (and their offsets in _COF) play in setting the dark-end color of the grayscale. (If black-level brightness is little affected, it makes it easier for us to tweak these _CUT settings!)

I'm glad to hear this. As I have said, the depth of my image is now stunning, yet it still has great shadow detail and deep blacks. I was able to lower SBRT/Brightness to its true point on the test pattern as I previously had it two notches above because I felt I needed more shadow detail, but this resulted in a little bit of undesirable washout, which is now completely gone. I hope you will experiment with it more, and try to get a good grey scale with the highest _DRV and _CUT settings possible.

I also found a similar effect with the _DRV settings, which also appear to be somewhat different adjustments than the regular "Picture" adjustment from the main menu. I tested this by having significantly higher _CUT values than _DRV values figuring I could just raise "Picture" to get an equal result, but it didn't materialize. The balance of the white level to black level still looked off not matter how high I raised the contrast! Interestingly enough, raising _DRV settings will require a lowering of overall contrast from the main menu.....hmmmmmmmm????? Weird. Any explanation?

Did you also try and test my perceived difference in keeping the coresponding _DRV and _CUT values the same or very nearly the same? For some reason, this just seems to provide the most natural balance of contrast and showdow detail. I'm very curious why. I managed to get my greyscale with not more than +1 or -1 difference between the corresponding colors, and I believe the image is significantly improved because of this.
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post #1714 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

The color changes brought about by differentially changing the three parameters seem much more obviious than any black-level change. And it seems that the three color settings do track well: equal increments in each of the R, G, and BCUT settings keeps grayscale balance very much the same.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have found that increasing the _CUTs by themselves will not only throw greyscale off, but will distort the appearance of the image. A corresponding color increase in the _DRVs is necessary when raising any of the _CUT adjustments. I have found that every 2 increases in _DRV is about equivalent to 5 increases in _CUT for the purposes of color/greyscale. But more so, I have found that the image gets distorted if the _CUT values stray too far from the corresponding _DRV values. The closer they are in number to one another, the better the image looks (assuming accurate greyscale); with the most improved image quality the higher the settings are.

For example my settings currently are:

RDRV = 63
GDRV = 31
BDRV = 36

RCUT = 63
GCUT = 32
BCUT = 37

In terms of greyscale - compared to the percentages of green to blue that you posted (based on a 2 _DRV = 5 _CUT), mine would seem to be plus blue, but it doesn't appear at all plus blue to me. Raising green any higher yields a slight greenish push, and setting blue any lower makes for a slight reddish push. I wonder how much these sets vary from one another???

Also, my color decoder settings are:

RYR = 15
RYB = 15
GYR = 3
GYB = 7

I know they don't effect greyscale, but this was the best compromise I could come up with without there being too much green or too much red.
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post #1715 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 04:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't understand some of your words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I have found that increasing the _CUTs by themselves will not only throw greyscale off, but will distort the appearance of the image.

What do you mean by "distort"?
Quote:


A corresponding color increase in the _DRVs is necessary when raising any of the _CUT adjustments. I have found that every 2 increases in _DRV is about equivalent to 5 increases in _CUT for the purposes of color/greyscale. But more so, I have found that the image gets distorted if the _CUT values stray too far from the corresponding _DRV values.

Again, I don't get your meaning of "distort." Do you mean some kind of brightness-range compression, as though the lighter tones are blocking or shadow detail is running together?
Quote:


In terms of greyscale - compared to the percentages of green to blue that you posted (based on a 2 _DRV = 5 _CUT), mine would seem to be plus blue, but it doesn't appear at all plus blue to me. Raising green any higher yields a slight greenish push, and setting blue any lower makes for a slight reddish push. I wonder how much these sets vary from one another???

I don't understand your numbers and "percentages" comments and the "green to blue" reference. Could you explain in different terms or something?

I hope you aren't using my exact numbers to judge anything about yours, as they are likely to be different. The incremental effects are built-in to the programming and electronics, but the absolute amounts depend on so much on what varies in manufacturing.

*********
So you would say, for purposes of color adjustment, if I change a _DRV settings by 2, it takes about 5 clicks of _CUT to straighten out color again? (I've never figured out this ratio.)

When I mentioned "differential" adjustments of _CUT, I meant that the sensitivity of onscreen shadow tint to changes in one or two of the _CUT parameters seems to me disproportionate to the change in brightness if I change all of them by a specific amount, e.g. raise them all equally by 5. But this may be my misinterpretation of their effect based on my experience with analog monitor adjustments. No one should attribute great imporrtance to this! I'm confessing my personal history's effect on my cuirrent observations, that's all.

If this 5:2 _CUT:_DRV ratio holds, then my tweaking of _CUT by the same offset as I tweak _DRV to get a color-temp change is somewhat in error. And yet, it seems to work! This is why I think for the moment that the color differences effected by differetial _CUT adjustent is a more-sensitive adjustment than any black-level change effected by changing them all by the same amount. Again, this may be an illusion, and I remain open to that possibility.

I can't imagine how this would be implemented in the circuitry, but anything is possible with the electronics being as complex and computational as it is.

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post #1716 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Did you also try and test my perceived difference in keeping the coresponding _DRV and _CUT values the same or very nearly the same? For some reason, this just seems to provide the most natural balance of contrast and showdow detail.

I've always done this by default, I suppose for reasons only an engineer can appreciate. (The values are "centered" in the range -- very elegant!) Example: 45-25-23 -- 45-18-22 for _DRV and _CUT, SBRT at 28 and Brightness and Contrast sliders at 31.

I will also try your "jack 'em all up to the max" method to see if some quality of the image changes. I have no preconceptions of what to expect, and you've made me very curious.

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post #1717 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Interestingly enough, raising _DRV settings will require a lowering of overall contrast from the main menu.....hmmmmmmmm????? Weird. Any explanation?

Well, yes. Raising all _DRV settings by the same amount is equivalent to turning up the "volume" of each color by the same amount, which is equivalent to raising the "volume" of the video's luminance -- which is what Contrast does with one control. Black level stays nearly the same, depending on the circuit.

Cutoff and Drive is a classic offset-plus-gain amplifier situation. Cutoff is really a voltage pedestal on which the video of each color is lifted, and then Drive is how much it increases as video goes from 0 to 100 IRE (black to white) for each color. Bottom line: A change in Cutoff adds a fixed amount to each color's amplitude, and Drive changes the multiplier (gain) of the intensity of each color. So a fixed _CUT increment of 5 adds much more to the color shift at the "black" end of the brightness range than it does to white because that 5 is a much greater proportion of the actual signal driving the color gun when it's just starting to fire, as opposed to when it's already firing nearly 100%.

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post #1718 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Again, I don't get your meaning of "distort." Do you mean some kind of brightness-range compression, as though the lighter tones are blocking or shadow detail is running together?

I'm sorry for the confusion...distort is probably a poor word usage. What I mean is that the balance of white level/contrast to shadow detail/black level becomes unnaturally skewed regardless of the balance between Brightness and "Picture" (contrast) from the main menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

So you would say, for purposes of color adjustment, if I change a _DRV settings by 2, it takes about 5 clicks of _CUT to straighten out color again? (I've never figured out this ratio.)

["A corresponding color increase in the _DRVs is necessary when raising any of the _CUT adjustments. I have found that every 2 increases in _DRV is about equivalent to 5 increases in _CUT for the purposes of color/greyscale. But more so, I have found that the image gets distorted if the _CUT values stray too far from the corresponding _DRV values."]

I meant to say that a corresponding decrease (not increase) in _DRV is necessary when raising any of _CUT adjustments for the purposes of getting the values for each color close to one another. For example, if you raise BCUT by 5, to keep the color temperature about the same, I have found you need to decrease BDRV by about 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I hope you aren't using my exact numbers to judge anything about yours, as they are likely to be different. The incremental effects are built-in to the programming and electronics, but the absolute amounts depend on so much on what varies in manufacturing.

I was only using your numbers to ball park mine, and doing so seemed to indicate that my color temperate would be a little plus blue compared to yours, which I hope can be attributed to manufacturing variation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

When I mentioned "differential" adjustments of _CUT, I meant that the sensitivity of onscreen shadow tint to changes in one or two of the _CUT parameters seems to me disproportionate to the change in brightness if I change all of them by a specific amount, e.g. raise them all equally by 5. But this may be my misinterpretation of their effect based on my experience with analog monitor adjustments. No one should attribute great imporrtance to this! I'm confessing my personal history's effect on my cuirrent observations, that's all.

If this 5:2 _CUT:_DRV ratio holds, then my tweaking of _CUT by the same offset as I tweak _DRV to get a color-temp change is somewhat in error. And yet, it seems to work! This is why I think for the moment that the color differences effected by differetial _CUT adjustent is a more-sensitive adjustment than any black-level change effected by changing them all by the same amount. Again, this may be an illusion, and I remain open to that possibility.

I haven't experimented with this, so I don't know.
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post #1719 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I've always done this by default, I suppose for reasons only an engineer can appreciate. (The values are "centered" in the range -- very elegant!) Example: 45-25-23 -- 45-18-22 for _DRV and _CUT, SBRT at 28 and Brightness and Contrast sliders at 31.

I will also try your "jack 'em all up to the max" method to see if some quality of the image changes. I have no preconceptions of what to expect, and you've made me very curious.

Try proceeding this way:

Use the 5:2 ratio to make your greens closer to one another. In this case GDRV = 23 (-2 from 25) and GCUT = 23 (+5 from 18). Your reds are the same, and your blues are only different by 1 value. Next try to find the highest possible values with about same ratios:

45-23-23 DRV = about 63-32-32, and 45-23-22 CUT = about a 63-32-31. This would just be rough starting point, but it should keep your color temperature somewhere near where it is now. In the end, you will probably have to fine tune it some more for an accurate greyscale, but I believe you should be able see the increase in image quality (depth and shadow detail) I'm experiencing.

Be sure to recalibrate SBRT as well, keeping it as low as possible but still accurate according to the test pattern.
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post #1720 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 10:26 PM
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You guys are going a little stray with your cut/drv relationships. A video signal 255/255/255 or 100/100/100 produces white/gray. Phosphor drive is a little different because you don't use equal amounts of R/G/B to make white. For reference, my CRT projector, uses R=34%, G=100%, B=9% for white (Red - 380 ftL, Green - 1117 ftL, Blue - 100.7 ftL).

When you talk about making changes in cut/drv, a step of 1 for blue may have more of an effect on white than a step of 1 on green or red.

Adjusting _CUT levels can and should affect Black level, gamma, and _DRV settings. A change in BCUT generally will affect BDRV, but not 1:1.

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post #1721 of 2969 Old 06-26-2006, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

IThe other two consistently overexposed slide film, as I recall,

Certianly there have been some little "quirks" I have worked out "along the way"(some of which I've probably forgotten!), with the Ftb, but, I do know I've never ran into anything quite like that. In fact, I've allways been very pleased with how the light meter on it has worked out, given the results I've experienced while shooting with all sorts of light conditions.

If anything, as I recall in some, "specific" cases exposures have turned out slightly "darker" than I expected, but also as I recall there were other reasons likely involved besides any sort of inaccracy from the light meter. Such, as situations which required me to "average" light meter readings for bright/dark areas in scene+ any added slight compensations I made for exposure settings to try to "get what I wanted". For example, think dark forest with a few bright spots of sunlight making it through the canopy, when I want to preserve some fine details in the shadows while at the same time not overexposing the bright spots too much or getting a "washed out" effect.

One thing is certian, *I* certianly am(or at least was when I was using the camera in such situations much more often) *calibrated* to it's light meter when such manual *compensation* was required, given I knew what to "expect" after many experiments in similar situations

I certianly can't vouch for the light meter's accuracy to any "specific" degree, however.

Even recall being a bit stunned at just how GOOD some of the scans of negatives from film exposed in the Ftb looked when I first got my 35mm film scanner, without any corrections via software of any kind. Surely any "artifacts" introduced by the scanner couldn't exactly "reverse" any problems with the exposures!

Quote:


They may be under-reading the brightness of your TV: You think it's 20 ft-L, but it's actually 30-ish. Maybe the reverse.

Certianly. I suppose I should have worded some of my last post a little differently. Although it might be interesting to know an accurate measurement of the screen(as it relates to your recent movie theatre screen brightness post, for example), all that is really important is what it looks like to my eyes, and I don't need a meter for that.

For my purposes, there are however, several quite useful applications for the Ftb's light meter I can think of. For example, using the light-meter readings as a comparator between screen brightness levels from different sources(where possible), and as a reference -- Such as for "redefining" the _DRV~_CUT for a different pic slider setting while easily ensuring I keep my preferred screen brightness level, or for looking at changes in screen brightness levels as the set ages/phospor's wear, and adjusting accordingly. As slow as that happens, it probably goes unnoticed until a certian "dimness" is reached.

In fact, I've already used it to verify, and in some cases slightly improve upon my previous "by eye only" "balancing" of screen brightness levels among different sources with 2170P-4 SPIC and other relevant settings. In one case involving MS viewer, as described farther below, I came across(seemingly at this point) quite a difference I hadn't noticed before ... I was also a bit surprised to notice changes in brightness as small as resulted from a one value change of the picture slider were detectable with the Ftb's light meter -- Certianly, the needle didn't change much with one click of pic slider, but given the references available "in the viewfinder" with the apeture ring indicator, it seemed to work quite well in detecting "small" changes.

Note that while sometimes it might be desirable to "tweak" the pic slider due to differences in programming, I generally don't "mess with it" and just live with such differences. I also noticed last night that in *some* circumstances It turns out I need slightly different Pic slider values from "23" set for different inputs in cases where white level can't be balanced out for those inputs/sources with SPIC(or anything else I can find) :

For example, ALL 480i DRC processed signals use the SAME SPIC value - which doesn't work for perfect balance for screen brightness between, for example, in my case 480i DVD via component V5 input AND 480i ATSC from internal tuner. And of course, 2103-1 "SCON" doesn't apply to those as it does "seperately" for 480i DRC processed signals from NTSC signal sources via RF or CV/YC inputs. Note I'm also a bit wary about adjusting factory SCON values given the the "set with a scope" info for SCON from the manual.

So, In this case, what is needed for the same pic slider setting for ATSC 480i(via "RF" input from "ANT") and for 480i DVD via V5 is only a difference of "1" for SPIC. If I could do it, SPIC=0 for 480i ATSC and SPIC=1 for 480i via V5 would work perfectly, but I can only use SPIC=0 for both. And, SPIC=0 is what I have it set at for DRC, given 480i ATSC is my "brightest" source. And, I want everything which uses "RF" input to match as closely as possible as I don't want to be twiddling the pic slider unnecessarily for different scan rates used with a single "input". In this case, NTSC+ATSC 480i/p/720p/1080i from Internal ATSC/NTSC or QAM "tuners".

So, even though it's a very slight difference, I'm striving for "perfection" as much as possible here! So, what I did in this case was leave SPIC at "0" for 480i DRC signals, and, for my preferred screen brightness setting, raise my Pic slider to "24" for 480i DVD via component 5, and then lower by one value my setting for 480p component(used with same DVD player) to "match" that new 24 pic slider value used with V5.

Info on The BIGGEST, and unexpected oddity(from what I can tell at this point) I came across follows -- Note: I do need to look at this closer, and attempt to better verify+make sure the test pattern I was using for MS is working "right" via the viewer. It's the pluge+extreme Grey pattern you've posted. In which case, shouldn't the top greyscale step be a reference for white (100 IRE) when viewed via MS, and therefore be a viable reference ? :

ATSC 1080i/720p/480p and MS share the same "SPIC" value === but it looks like at this point I need about 4~5 clicks of Pic slider higher for the MS viewer to "balance it" with everything else, which is using either PIC slider=23(everything else except V5 for DVD) or pic slider=24(V5 for DVD) ! ...

BTW, I'm not positive, and can't say for sure yet(and may never be able to), and the following seems to contridict and earlier comment of yours on this .... But, at this point, on my set at least, I do believe the QM PATN white box window pattern(#3? or thearabouts in each "series" of 1080i/480i/480p/720p ATSC patterns) seems to be at or close to a repressentation of 100IRE "white", as I believe is the full "white screen"/field ~#5 in each "series" of patterns(well, other than any ABL effects that might be involved) ... I can say the somewhat "white" full screen patterns at the end of the series(#15~19 or so?) are definitely NOT representation of 100IRE/white ...

Quote:


Moreover, make sure that you way over-cover the spot-metering area with the white patch on the TV -- i.e. the known boundary of the spot should be smaller than the white patch as seen in the viewfinder.

It was easy to move the camera back from the TV(hence the "white patch" became too small to fill enough "area" in and around the light-metering area) and see the point where the reading changed.

As you may recall, on Ftb there is a small "darker" rectangular area shown in the viewfinder which directly indicates the light-metering area. The small circle in center of the rectangle, and center of the viewfinder is for focusing. -- This rectangular area made for a good reference to note how much "white area" from the test pattern(such as the 100IRE white "box" on the Pluge w/grey scale pattern on DVE) on the TV had to be outside of that rectangular area before the reading changed as I moved the camera(on tripod) back from set. I tested it several times with a few different test patterns(including comparisons to the entire viewfinder covered with white which was possible with AVIA or DVE window patterns with the camera quite close to TV), and I found that, actually, only a very, very small area "outside" of that little rectangle was needed for the same reading as occured with the entire viewfinder filled with white.

Quote:


My point about the "31" settings was not to recommend a specific value for them but that they were convenient reference points for whatever settings you want them to represent. For you, that should be a comfortable "normal" viewing brightness. My Minolta digital Spotmeter-F sees my "comfortable brightness" as about 30 ft-L for white. Of course, YMMV.

Certianly agree such a mid-point value reference is a great idea when possible, again, perhaps I should have worded part of my post a bit differently --- However -- I'm just saying in some cases(such as with my set and my "eyes" and the screen brightness which Is best and comformtable), using "31" Pic slider may not be easily "acheivable", or "preferred" as the reference point for preferred screen brightness level.

For instance ... I certianly have black levels set/balanced so I use brightness slider="31" for all inputs/devices, same thing for having related SM settings adjusted as much as possible so the "sharpness" slider is at/near mid point values ... But, concerning the "picture" slider, in my case :

#1). With my TV's current settings, with some exceptions(depending on programming and inputs/sources that can't be balanced with 2170P-4/SPIC, or 2103-1/SCON or anything else I can find as mentioned earlier in post) --- Pic slider "31" does NOT result in a comfortable normal viewing, it's TOO bright/fatiging on my eyes after a relatively short period.

Even in the Daytime when there is plenty of amibient light, using a 31 setting it's noticably(slightly) too "bright"(except for MS viewer), no matter what the FL may actually be. And, I'm not the ONLY one who has noticed this, I asked everyone who watches the set this afternoon while adjusting the pic slider a bit, and heard the same thing from the rest of family. Pic slider =23 is NOT too dim even during the day with lots of light in the room(and at night it's "perfect"), 31 is just at the point of getting "too bright" in the Daytime, and is very noticably past that point by several clicks at night .. Pic slider=18 for instance, certianly IS too dim however, although you wouldn't know it if you were watching the set in a completely dark room.

#2), So, OK -- Pic slider "23" is perfect(more or less), which works for me :

But, perhaps I can "redefine" _DRV to bring that "up" to Pic slider='31" for a mid-point value instead -- Well, maybe I can, and perhaps that is preferrable to using "23" as the reference point for the preferred screen brightness levels, and perhaps I might do/try that someday --- However -- Keep in mind, for example, I have SPIC values as low as 0 for my "brightest" sources, and RDRV~BCUT have allways ranged with values between 33~5, including for all my greyscale experiments(well, except a brief experiment with higher values for RDRV up in the 40's -- I needed a much lower PIC slider value for that!) .... which are in the general range of the factory "warm offset" values ....

Again, haven't tried it yet, but If I LOWER the _DRV values to redefine things so my preferred screen brightness is "set" for "pic slider=31"(given that I can't for example lower "SPIC" any more) -- I suspect "in range" Settings for BDRV are going to be getting awfully close, at, or near the range of "ZERO" value! And that would NOT work very well, even if it did end up at say as high a reading as "BDRV=3", given what I might want to experiment with via the warm/cool offsets to the point it might drop below zero, or perhaps after the set changes significantly lower values would also be needed ...

So, I'd really like to make sure BDRV or BCUT will not, or will never potientially be concievably any lower than "5", in which case the maximum amount I would currently consider lowering _DRV values would be by about, well ZERO, Since the factory warm offsets equate(or so I "believe") to RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-9-32-17-5, and the XBR960 service manual chart listing equating for warm offset would equate to BDRV=5 ....

But perhaps I'm missing something, here? I am also intrigued, and also thought about trying RWhetmore's suggestion at some point concerning cranking up _DRV+_CUts, but I expect that would certianly require a low pic slider value. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, however, as long as it is at least as high as 5 or 6, in case I do need or desire to lower it in certian circumstances!

At one time, I did experiment with lowering 2170P-4/SPIO from it's factory adjusted value of 10 in order to attempt to achieve a mid-point "31" Picture slider value for my preferred reference -- However - It might have been just me(and just knowing the manual says "set it with a 'scope"), but it looked like there may have been something else that may have been going on rather than just SPIO being a global "contrast" adjustment which does the exact "same thing" as the Picture silder .... So, Not being sure about that, and having spent more time on it than I wanted several months ago, I decided to return SPIO it to factory default and just be happy with Pic slider "23" for my preferred setting .... Which really, I am perfectly happy with

Jeff
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post #1722 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 12:06 AM
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I've messed with many of my service menus because I did the dreaded reset. I set up mostly alright again, however, every time I turn the TV on it asks me to input the language and input the vertical and horizontal business. Is there some setting that I could have flipped that is causing this? I've read the entire forum, but can't seem to get this to stop. It still remembers the time I have set, and it isn't going back to "vivid" when I turn the TV, it just always asks for those initial settings.

Edit: I just needed to let it run the autoprogram.

One more question though, in the charts, what is the meaning of VGA? I'm a bit confused trying to figure out the default values for mid1 as don't really understand the meaning of VGA ,single, index, and favorites in this context. Specifically, for MID1:MDHP, with 480i input on video 5, i think it says 174 is the default value here, but this is WAY outside of my scan range, and the image just goes to garbage if I raise it that high, I'm set at 57.


Are my posts being ignored because I reset my TV?
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post #1723 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

fwiw = for what it's worth

I can't advise you. But I think I'd be a little nervous if I needed to put my SBRT so high. That doesn't seem normal. As you said, the default is 12. If your TV looks right at 54, it must have looked completely wrong at 12..? So without going into the service menu (which we aren't expected to do), you wouldn't have been able to get a satisfactory picture on your TV? I'd be afraid that something is wrong with the set. I wouldn't want GAMM at 3 on my set either, but that one is subjective. Still, the fact that you have SBRT at 54 and GAMM at 3 makes it sound like you are compensating for a problem. *shrug* Changing your DRV and CUT values won't help.

I have messing around with my tv and raising the DRV and CUT do help, I have raised the settings and now have SBRT at 33 and the picture is about the same as a high SBRT and low Drv and Cut settings.

I ordered an Avia disc and am waiting till it comes to callibrate. I adjust and adjust but can't get the picture perfect. I have also reduced GAMM to 2 as it was too bright before. I still don't fully understand DRV and CUT settings, the whites are still a little to bright and blacks I believe could have more detail.
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post #1724 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Adjusting _CUT levels can and should affect Black level, gamma, and _DRV settings. A change in BCUT generally will affect BDRV, but not 1:1.

Glenn, how would adjusting the _CUT settings affect gamma?
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post #1725 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Adjusting _CUT levels can and should affect Black level, gamma, and _DRV settings.

That's technically true, but at the time you are adjusting the _CUT settings to get correct grayscale, it doesn't matter. Your task is to get the three colors to balance near the beam-cutoff point. When that happens, you have color neutrality -- or, stated another way, the color of near-black matches the color of white.

NOW, one re-adjusts the black level with SBRT + Brightness (and the other usual input-dependent tweaks) to calibrate it to normal standards using, say, the AVIA or DVE disks. When black level is correct, gamma is restored to what it was before.

Bottom line: Black level affects gamma (as measured, but not necessarily as perceived in the mid-grays). But when we are adjusting the cutoffs for red, green, and blue, we don't care. We are adjusting color, not black level. Having perfected color, we can then re-adjust black level.

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post #1726 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jjt667 View Post

I have messing around with my tv and raising the DRV and CUT do help, I have raised the settings and now have SBRT at 33 and the picture is about the same as a high SBRT and low Drv and Cut settings.

I ordered an Avia disc and am waiting till it comes to callibrate. I adjust and adjust but can't get the picture perfect. I have also reduced GAMM to 2 as it was too bright before. I still don't fully understand DRV and CUT settings, the whites are still a little to bright and blacks I believe could have more detail.

Use the black and white Avia screens to help you set DRV and CUT. If you think whites are too bright, you probably need to lower the picture setting. I think the best way to set white level on this TV is to just experiement during normal viewing until you find the picture setting that you are happiest with.
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post #1727 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dshreter View Post

I've messed with many of my service menus because I did the dreaded reset...

One more question though, in the charts, what is the meaning of VGA???

Are my posts being ignored because I reset my TV?

I believe you have unfortunately posted in the midst of a very, very interesting exchange between a few of this threads "best and brightest." I am, for one, am reading their exchanges very closely, since I'm learning a boatload of new info as they learn from one-another. I hope it isn't because of your unfortunate "reset."

I must acknowledge, though, that after many instances of trying to help those who've made your mistake, I find they tend to continue to dis-respect the SM, the need to record values and the need to be very methodical in their approach to the SM.

You appear to have learned from your mistake and I'll try to help you as much as I can. After all, we're both from the SF Bay Area, right? Those "best and brightest" I mentioned earlier are definitely more qualified to answer your more difficult questions and I hope they'll chime in at the appropriate time, but I'll help as much as I can. I'm temporarily on leave and very far from my HD set, so, for now, I can't share values (setting numbers).

VGA refers to one of many levels of resolutions, display formats, ports and cabling layouts (pins). Here's a definition from Webopedia:

"Abbreviation of video graphics array, a graphics display system for PCs developed by IBM. VGA has become one of the de facto standards for PCs. In text mode, VGA systems provide a resolution of 720 by 400 pixels. In graphics mode, the resolution is either 640 by 480 (with 16 colors) or 320 by 200 (with 256 colors). The total palette of colors is 262,144.
Unlike earlier graphics standards for PCs -- MDA, CGA, and EGA -- VGA uses analog signals rather than digital signals. Consequently, a monitor designed for one of the older standards will not be able to use VGA.

Since its introduction in 1987, several other standards have been developed that offer greater resolution and more colors (see SVGA , 8514/A graphics standard, and XGA), but VGA remains the lowest common denominator. All PCs made today support VGA, and possibly some other more advanced standard."

I hope this helps. And good luck with bringing your set "back."
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post #1728 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshreter View Post

Are my posts being ignored because I reset my TV?:

No, not by me anyway, and I expect not by anyone else here either, although I must agree with JustSc's comments, above. If I had some useful info relating to your questions/comments, I would do my best to answer, but unfortunetly up until now I have not had anything to contribute in that regard. For instance, I've never had My TV require that I input the time, including before I first "autoscanned" for any channels, as I recall, and I had no idea what you were talking about concerning the "vertical and horizontal "stuff" ...
I do have one thing to offer :

Quote:


One more question though, in the charts, what is the meaning of VGA? I'm a bit confused trying to figure out the default values for mid1 as don't really understand the meaning of VGA ,single, index, and favorites in this context.

I can tell you "Single"/Index" and "favorites" relates to different features or to put it another way certian "screen formatting modes" which some models of sets(such as my KD34XBR960 concerning Index, favorites/twin view/etc) support. For instance, "Single" refers to when using only a single source input to "fill the screen" - for example, as opposed to using "Twin View" on sets so equipped( A "PIP" like functions which divides the screen into 2 windows, where you can use two sources (say a DVD player in right window, and signals from internal tuner in left window). "index" is a feature that puts a larger window with the input source you are currently watching on left side of screen, and, in a small portion of right side of screen, a scrolling set of small windows appears, in those windows are the content of channels from the NTSC(from antenna or cable) internal tuner. "Favorites" produces a somewhat similar screen mode. your "favorites" but I'm not sure.

Other than per justsc's expanation --- Not sure about "VGA" -- perhaps it may involve when a TV is used as a Output device for a PC/VGA graphics controller via the DVI/HDMI input?, Or perhaps it's for any set models in the past which have used this firmware(or a earlier or different version?) and have had 15-pin VGA/RGB port?

Jeff
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post #1729 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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EQUIVALENCE OF VARIOUS BLACK-LEVEL ADJUSTMENTS, OFFSETS, AND COLOR CUTOFFS

I have just run a few careful experiments that confirm the following (all in 2170P-1):

(1) The Brightness slider, SBRT, and SBOF all have equivalent increments. E.g. raising Brightness by 20 is exactly canceled by decreasing SBRT by 20. Increasing SBRT by 5 exactly cancels decreasing SBOF by 5.

(2) The black-level increase observed by raising all _CUT settings by 16 is canceled by reducing SBRT by 4, very closely. Thus, there is approximately a 4:1 ratio between clicks of an overall _CUT change and a compensatory change in SBRT.

(3) Raising all _CUT settings by 16 (RCUT now at 61) results in a small minus-red shift in overall color, even though grayscale still seems fairly linear. Thus there appears to be a nonlinearity in the red channel near the top of its range, maybe in other colors.

(4) Raising all _CUT settings by 16 for Neutral color is exactly equivalent to leaving them alone and raising, say, the Cool cutoff offsets by 16 (31-31-31 -- 47-47-47) and switching to Cool. Further, if the SBOF for Cool is also reduced by 4 (7 --> 3), the effect is that black level is preserved -- but there is still that slight minus-red shift overall.

(5) It might occur to someone that you could configure high _CUT settings and high _COF settings, and that might force the total for one color to be higher than 63. But this doesn't work: The limit seems to be that the sum of the _CUT and _COF settings saturate or top out at 63. If you set them so one color totals 63, then make further increases in that color, no color shift is observed. I.e. RCUT=50 + RCOF=51 (offset=20) does NOT = an RCUT equivalent of 70. It stops at 63.

(This makes sense if the internal digital representation and storage of these values has a hard limit.)

CONCLUSIONS: Knowing the above makes it easier to fiddle with the various black-level parameters, knowing some are directly equivalent (Brightness, SBRT, and SBOF).

It also seems as though I could drop my _CUT values by 4 each if they had crept up during experimentation, and then add 1 to SBRT.

I sense that there are nonlinearities or other anomalies at the range-extremes of some of these parameters, and that an adjustment nightmare might ensue. (See #3, above.) Sony's own chart numbers uniformly stay away from those extremes. I think I will keep my settings near the center of each range, since nothing forces me to do otherwise, and the incremental changes track so well that one can experiment fairly intuitively.

As for RWetmore's observation of better shadow detail with his settings so high or with some _CUT and _DRV settings "matching," I think there may be another explanation for that. I'll post a separate opinion. For my part, I am going to avoid those extremes.

I hope this data helps out some folks.

KenTech
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post #1730 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshreter View Post

Specifically, for MID1:MDHP, with 480i input on video 5, i think it says 174 is the default value here, but this is WAY outside of my scan range, and the image just goes to garbage if I raise it that high, I'm set at 57.

According to the MID1 data chart, (charts are frequently cryptic), the column that applies to 480i seem to be Single - Others - Others, and the default value is 0! I checked my TV with a 480i feed from a DVD on V5, and MDHP is, indeed, set to 0.

At the column level, I don't quite get the "Normal" / "Others" distinction. "Single" does seem to refer to a screen-filling main display, and VGA is for a computer-generated video source connected thru HDMI, as far as I can tell from several charts.

In the MID1-3 groups, be sure to get the values for width and especially height exactly right, as these values control (as I have discovered) the precise sampling of the video for display. Get the vertical ones wrong, and the image quality will be compromised! There are exact ratios between the particular video-line count and the internal digital representation of that video that have to be maintained.

The critical values are DHAR, DVAR, MDHS, and MDVS in MID1; in MID2, DRHS and DRVS (if relevant); and in MID3, VDHS and VDVS. The correct numbers are the ones in the data tables.

I would copy all other numbers exactly as listed in the MID1-3 tables, especially MID3 #4-11. The ones associated with "phase" or "pos" (position) can be tweaked a little to balance the centering of a video frame between inputs; but don't mess with these without first getting the positioning right in the 2170D groups.

The data charts are found here.

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post #1731 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

At the column level, I don't quite get the "Normal" / "Others" distinction. "

Definitely understandable, as sometimes it doesn't even seem to make "sense" ....

As one example of the use of "others" --- where the columns listed in the chart for CXA2171 CBGN~YGN are "PT", "Others", and "HDMI". Note that In this case, only 480p, 720p+1080i signals are involved/"effected" by the 2171CXA settings, including CBGN~YGN :

PT refers to 1080i pass through "mode"(By pass MID processing).

HDMI refers to (you guessed it, HDMI!)

"Others" - refers to Component video from either V5/V6 component inputs OR from Internal ATSC/QAM tuner(s) +anything else I suppose, although I have no idea what that "anything else" might be(if anything) !

As another example, 2170-D1 "others" column for 2170D-1/ZOOM should/may apply to"screen formatting modes other than "widezoom, Zoom and E-Zoom/Zoom-V ... Such as the "normal" screen mode on 16x9 sets which places a 4x3 signal, with proper aspect ratio "inside" the 16x9 picture area with bars on the sides(black bars unless you've adjusted MID1/BCOL to higher values than 0(black).

In some cases, "others"(and some other columns in the chart) does indeed seem even more "cryptic", in which cases it is sometimes difficult to figure out WHAT they are talking about, or what it applies to ... It is not as if a "others" message appears in the Green text at top of screen when you are working in SM as do as other info on the signal source, such as "ATSC, "480i"/"480p" ....

Jeff
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post #1732 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(3) Raising all _CUT settings by 16 (RCUT now at 61) results in a small minus-red shift in overall color, even though grayscale still seems fairly linear. Thus there appears to be a nonlinearity in the red channel near the top of its range, maybe in other colors......

I sense that there are nonlinearities or other anomalies at the range-extremes of some of these parameters, and that an adjustment nightmare might ensue. (See #3, above.) Sony's own chart numbers uniformly stay away from those extremes. I think I will keep my settings near the center of each range, since nothing forces me to do otherwise, and the incremental changes track so well that one can experiment fairly intuitively.

What I'm wondering is, if this non-linearity in color could #1). Be present to some small extent without going into the extreme upper or lower ranges, and, 2). if it be used in a benefical way in some circumstances, and 3). if anything similar happens with _DRV. Especially as I may have reason to experiment a bit with it, which is also why I was interested in RWhetmore's observations. I just have not had the time yet, to do so.

For example - I think I've arrived at the best "relationship" I can find with the following RDRV~BCUT settings, as related to Greyscale linearity and CT. The ONLY problem is, no matter what I do to try to "tweak" these farther, I cannot seem to get rid of what I *perceive* as a very, very slight overall "greenishness" to the greyscale without causing a "worse" problem linearity wise(+red or +blue, -red or -blue/etc/et) or CT wise(too "cool" or too "warm"), etc/etc.

RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-22-17-14

As if it was very, very slightly +green overall, and I needed RDRV~BCUT to "work" on a scale from 1-100 instead of 0-63, with, in other words, smaller "increments" for each value. Or, I find myself wishing I could try something along the lines of the following :

RDRV~BCUT = 32-17.75-8.3-22.25-16.85-14.25

If it would even be worthwhile, I just wonder which "way" I should go when I start experimenting, Up or down, and whether I should try to see if I can make improvements increasing/decreasing the _DRV's(and adjusting Pic slider accordingly per using my Camera's Light meter reference for current preferred brightness levels), first, or start with the _CUT's and adjustment of SBRT as necessary. As noted before, I can't go too much lower, with the DRV's especially, and I'd prefer keeping BDRV above "5" for reasons mentioned earlier, which would only allow for a decrease of "3" for each _DRV value. That would also be in the "extreme" lower range for BDRV, which I'd also like to avoid as well for the reasons you mention ...

In any case, I'm Hoping that perhaps I can find something that will get rid of that bit of extra "greenishness" throughout greyscale(and although it seems near perfect, there may be some room for some very slight improvement in greyscale linearity as well), realizing that it might still get quite confusing as, if say, I raise the _CUT values by say, "10", in order to see if it is useful or not, additional individual adjustment of RCUT/GCUT/BCUT may be(I'm guessing likely WILL be) in order.

Jeff
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post #1733 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

The ONLY problem is, no matter what I do to try to "tweak" these farther, I cannot seem to get rid of what I *perceive* as a very, very slight overall "greenishness" to the greyscale without causing a "worse" problem linearity wise(+red or +blue, -red or -blue/etc/et) or CT wise(too "cool" or too "warm"), etc/etc. . . . As if it was very, very slightly +green overall, and I needed RDRV~BCUT to "work" on a scale from 1-100 instead of 0-63, with, in other words, smaller "increments" for each value.

I have thought for quite a while that there was an intractable greenishness about the mid-tones. I thought that I had white right and that I had adjusted the "black" end correctly. But here's where an accurate spectrophotometer would be a godsend! I have come to the conclusion that my perception of my "white" based on bright patches in b/w test patterns is not correct. I have been "tuning" the grays and somehow allowing the very brightest tone to be a bit different, probably slightly red. Then when I look at an integrated picture of all b/w tones, something is really "off." Usually greenish, or yellowish-green. Very annoying.

But, having pulled no special tricks at all, I have cured the "greenies" completely. It now seems that my ratio of RCUT to the other colors was much too low. Here I was, tweaking _DRV by one notch at a time to eliminate the slightest trace of off-color, and what I was really observing overall were the mid tones: they're the ones that gave me the color perception for b/w patterns and real b/w images. So I impulsively made some big changes in _CUT for blue and green -- and something magic happened! I stumbled on a nearly perfect grayscale. True, my _DRV was still a little cool, but everything matched in color. No greenies! So I tweaked _DRV by -2 red and +1 blue (good color-temp increments) a couple of times and got a white that was just perfect on real color video material. Watched an evening of TV, really satidfied with the neutral whites. Then I killed color with the Color slider, and . . . no greenies! Just really impressive b/w.

So I am current running _DRV and _CUT settings of 45-25-23 -- 46-18-22. (The old settings, normalized for the above red: 45-30-26 -- 46-27-25.) If I had a color-temp (CT) meter that was accurate over a wide range of brightnesses, I would use it in an instant to linearize the grayscale: (a) measure the white CT I have arrived at, according to my eyes and preferences; then (b) duplicate that same CT down the brightness range. One could set up the Warm and Cool offsets to give three different choices, obviously.

***********
Now . . . a new theoretical question: A perfect video driver circuit would allow you to set the _CUT values so all three color guns would start illuminating the screen at once, say at a 0 IRE (black). So why would that setting ever need to be changed? In this perfect processing environment, the video-signal drive would begin at that zero (colorless) "pivot" point, scaling each of the three colors to match their screen-phosphor requirements, so that IRE 100 (or 100% white) would be just a perfect white CT. If the color guns resemble each other in turn-on characteristics, only _DRV would have to be adjusted to alter the CT of white and gray. As the video signal increases from 0 to 5 to 10 IRE, the three drive signals would still be in perfect proportion, and even shadows would be okay. In a less perfect world, _CUT would be only for eliminating small anomalies in the way the particular CRT works.

Theoretically, this could be the way these settings are processed internally in our DA-4 TVs. Are they? Well, I'm not sure. My experience with most CRT displays has been that the "pivot" point for the three video-drive curves is below black, and so offset and drive interact -- you have to tweak both, going back and forth. But that doesn't mean that a sophisticated signal-processing system as we have in our TVs has to do it that way. It would be a pleasure to discover that _DRV and _CUT don't really interact. I've been suspecting that they interact a lot less than I have assumed -- and so I will do some experiments now to see if I can nail this down.

ADDENDUM: See results of test six messages down. Above description is wishful thinking!

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post #1734 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

. . . I needed RDRV~BCUT to "work" on a scale from 1-100 instead of 0-63, with, in other words, smaller "increments" for each value.

In my opinion, the _CUT increments are plenty small enough. I can't imagine wanting more sensitivity in the _CUT adjustments.

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post #1735 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 08:05 PM
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Non-linearity in the CRT guns, phosphor and electronic circuits and components is a good example of the benefit of being able to measure grayscale at all points. Cuts and Drives interact with each other, using various combinations that produce a uniform grayscale. Making adjustments to compensate for all the non-linearity in the combined circuits is in part a function of a calibration. If the gamma curve is off, sometimes adjusting cuts, drives, brightness and contrast can make improvements. These circuits are all interrelated and cannot all function with the same linearity throughout their range. Some settings will be better than others. One could spend a lot of time, with test equipment, setting grayscale. It is common for me to go back and forth between cuts and drives 5 to 10 times, then measure the grayscale in 10 IRE steps then repeat the cuts and drives again a few times to achieve a flat grayscale. While doing this, checking to see that the gamma curve is close to 2.2 for each step and overall.

Do you need to do it this way? NO, but it makes things easy when you know it is right.

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post #1736 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Non-linearity in the CRT guns, phosphor and electronic circuits and components is a good example of the benefit of being able to measure grayscale at all points. Cuts and Drives interact with each other, using various combinations that produce a uniform grayscale. Making adjustments to compensate for all the non-linearity in the combined circuits is in part a function of a calibration. If the gamma curve is off, sometimes adjusting cuts, drives, brightness and contrast can make improvements.

Isn't that what we've been saying all along? Glad you agree.

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post #1737 of 2969 Old 06-27-2006, 08:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

BTW, I'm not positive, and can't say for sure yet(and may never be able to), and the following seems to contridict and earlier comment of yours on this .... But, at this point, on my set at least, I do believe the QM PATN white box window pattern(#3? or thearabouts in each "series" of 1080i/480i/480p/720p ATSC patterns) seems to be at or close to a repressentation of 100IRE "white", as I believe is the full "white screen"/field ~#5 in each "series" of patterns(well, other than any ABL effects that might be involved) ... I can say the somewhat "white" full screen patterns at the end of the series(#15~19 or so?) are definitely NOT representation of 100IRE/white.

All you say is true. It was my mistake underestimating the brightness of pattern #3. I had examined it in 1080i mode, and had measured it as lower than expected, compared to #23. But on my 4:3 TV, the 1080i patterns 1-20 are presented full screen, not 16:9. When I forced proper 16:9 mode by setting 2170P-4/IDSW to a 16:9 aspect ratio (=3, I think), the brightness was what I expected (more white lines per inch, duh!). And, yes, the beam-current limiter kicks in for those full-white screens, lowering the brightness by about half at what would be 30-35 ft-L.

Those small white patches are dead-center, however, and don't represent the average or perceived brightness of the screen, due to the CRT's hot-spot effect. I prefer one that is off-center, such as the grayscale + pluge on DVE or a corner of the larger patch on AVIA.

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post #1738 of 2969 Old 06-28-2006, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by MechanicalMan View Post

Use the black and white Avia screens to help you set DRV and CUT. If you think whites are too bright, you probably need to lower the picture setting. I think the best way to set white level on this TV is to just experiement during normal viewing until you find the picture setting that you are happiest with.

Thanks mechanical Man for the usefull info I greatly appreciate the time you take to answer my questions.

I have been fooling around and have gotten the picture pretty good by just flipping channels and getting it to where it is comfortable to watch, I will try what you recommend when my avia disc comes.

thanks

jjtv
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post #1739 of 2969 Old 06-28-2006, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

In this perfect processing environment, the video-signal drive would begin at that zero (colorless) "pivot" point, scaling each of the three colors to match their screen-phosphor requirements, so that IRE 100 (or 100% white) would be just a perfect white CT. If the color guns resemble each other in turn-on characteristics, only _DRV would have to be adjusted to alter the CT of white and gray. I've been suspecting that they interact a lot less than I have assumed -- and so I will do some experiments now to see if I can nail this down.

Did that test in a very dark room last evening. No, the "perfect processing environment" isn't to be found in our Sony DA-4 TVs. So sad. The cutoff and drive settings interact heavily, and if you adjust _DRV to get a diferent color-temp, you have to adjust _CUT as well to keep grayscale aligned. End of short-lived fantasy!

The good news: For small changes, at least, Sony seems to have scaled the two _DRV and _CUT groups so that they seem to track fairly well. It's very hard to test for large color changes because the eye gets distracted by the appearance of obvious color, but for small changes, such as a small warm CT change (+2 red, -1 blue), you can change the _DRV and _CUT by the same amount, and come out fine. Hence my original (and still reasonable) recommendation to, for example, set Warm offsets at, say, 33-31-30 -- 33-31-30, and Cool at 29-31-32 -- 29-31-32. I presume reader-experimenters will report on any refinements on this, and I will, too.

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post #1740 of 2969 Old 06-28-2006, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(2) The black-level increase observed by raising all _CUT settings by 16 is canceled by reducing SBRT by 4, very closely. Thus, there is approximately a 4:1 ratio between clicks of an overall _CUT change and a compensatory change in SBRT.

Ken,

I am wondering how you tested for this? Raising the _CUT settings to where I have them now had zero effect on SBRT/Brightness using the AVIA black level test pattern on my HD-A1 (1080i). Is there a logical explanation for this? It seems very inconsistent with your results, which concern me.

I'm also curious if you found the effect on washout equal with this 4:1 ratio? In other words, does raising _CUT settings by 4, equal the same amount of image "washout" as raising SBRT by 1?

Furthermore, did you find the increase in shadow detail also to be 4:1??? Just curious.

Finally, are you using a 1080i signal when running your test patterns???

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

As for RWetmore's observation of better shadow detail with his settings so high or with some _CUT and _DRV settings "matching," I think there may be another explanation for that. I'll post a separate opinion. For my part, I am going to avoid those extremes.

I'm curious why my set appears to look so good with the guidelines I'm following. I'm sensing, however, that you are not going to agree.
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