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post #1741 of 2962 Old 06-28-2006, 05:57 PM
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I tried the following test last night in order to do good(hopefully) A/B comparisons :

I set up the following for several needed inputs with *identically* configured Pic modes(per the info on "customizing pic modes" earlier in this thread), and with the aid of "Mode memory:On" setting. Then, I did A/B comparisions between the two "pic modes" using various 1080i greyscale test patterns from MS, as well as "video black" from a "non-present" 1080i signal via ATSC internal tuner. I also compared a bit with real programming material --- but with color slider at "31" as well as "0" -- specifically, the episode of "NOVA" about the Concorde running on PBS HD channel last night, and HD Letterman/HD tonight show) :

RDRV~BCUT set at my current, preferred settings : 32-18-8-23-17-14

Cool offset RDOF~BCOF = 31-31-31-40-40-40

Relevant Pic mode # 1("Vivid" pic mode for reference) settings :

brightness slider=31
Color Temp= Neutral

Relevant Pic mode #2("standard" pic mode for reference) settings:

Brightness Slider=28 = Note - this was set as closely as possible to match Black level in Pic Mode #1 - which was a bit difficult to set precisely as Gamma apparently was effected by this experiment as well. For instance, 29 also seemed close to being the right value.

Color Temp=COOL

NOTE - EVERYTHING else was set the same for either pic mode(including all relevant SM settings) except the above settings. Also note, that when looking at test patterns and "video black", Color Slider=0 for both pic modes. Also, note of course, With both "customized" pic modes set with brightness slider=31, and "color temp" neutral(or one pic mode set with "neutral" and the other at "cool" with RDOF~BCOF 31-31-31-31-31-31 ) -- The EXACT same results appear on screen for either pic mode when switching between them. Easy to see, as these two are right "next" to each other when you press the button on the remote.

Results I noticed, or seemingly "perceived" at least :

I did not look closely enough at changes in Greyscale linearity to report confidently, or accurately about it in detail. I can report :

#1). With a video black signal and PIC mode 1, a neutral grey(s) resulted throughout brightness slider range ~35~63. With Pic Mode #2 in comparsion to pic #1, while it appeared linear in color while raising brightness slider, it was perhaps "sort of aqua-marine greenish-bluish - what color is it really"?

#2). Although I didn't spend much time looking at the brighter areas in test patterns, I believe I saw a change in higher IRE's as well. Can't help but notice it when looking at a white concorde flying through a sky with bright clouds, or, higher IRE's in a greyscale step pattern while comparing between the two pic modes. Along the lines "color" wise of what I noted in above paragraph concerning Pic mode #2/lower brightness levels and the "greenish-bluish "what color is it?" deal, although not seemingly as significant as with lower IRE's, as you might expect ... In fact, if this makes sense -- as it might sound contrictdory to that but it isn't : the greyscale "linearity" seemed to "track" quite well between Pic mode #1+2 - which I believe is much as Ken experienced with it going minus red, overall when he raised all _CUT significantly. I just was not expecting quite as much change as I seemed to have noticed by raising it by 8, in my case resulting in more "mid-range" values.

#3). Also, apparently, Gamma changed as well, which made it somewhat difficult to precisely detirmine the matching brightness slider setting for Pic Mode #2. Pic Mode #2 apparently had higher gamma(slightly more "washed out") than Pic mode #1.

Jeff
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post #1742 of 2962 Old 06-28-2006, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I am wondering how you tested for [the _CUT/SBRT ratio]? Raising the _CUT settings to where I have them now had zero effect on SBRT/Brightness using the AVIA black level test pattern on my HD-A1 (1080i).

I put up a grayscale + pluge pattern from AVIA and froze it. There is a background and two faint dark bars on the left side of the gray patches. Their absolute and relative visibility was how I restored correct black level by lowering SBRT after raising the _CUT settings. The grayscale patches showed me that there was a color shift.
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I'm also curious if you found the effect on washout equal with this 4:1 ratio? In other words, does raising _CUT settings by 4, equal the same amount of image "washout" as raising SBRT by 1?

I tried to be sensitive to the "shadow" contrast as I ran these tests, and to the apparent brightness ratios of the gray patches. The apparent brightness differences among the two bars and background did not seem to change after the _CUT +16 plus SBRT -4. The two dark bars were still equally distinct from each other and from the background, no more or less so than before the adjustment, and also when I went back instantly with 0-Enter on the remote.
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Furthermore, did you find the increase in shadow detail also to be 4:1??? Just curious.

I consider shadow "detail" to be a contrast factor, and so I don't understand how a ratio can apply without careful photometric measurement. I observe: Are the shadowed items distinct from each other? Are the folds in the dark fabric visible? Etc. If you were graphing this shadow area, screen brightness vs. video voltage, there would be a "toe" or slight tapering right at black, and how drawn-out this "toe" is determines how snappy the shadows look. (Less toe = higher slope = more, snappier detail, and more-distinct blacks.)
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Finally, are you using a 1080i signal when running your test patterns???

No, I generally ignore upscaling. I'm letting my Panasonic S97 feed the TV with component 480i for these tests thru input V5. I could also use HDMI/480p with similar results. I have the two inputs tuned to look nearly identical.
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I'm curious why my set appears to look so good with the guidelines I'm following. I'm sensing, however, that you are not going to agree.

No, don't get me wrong. I don't dispute your observations and pleasure at the results, although you run the risk of confirming your optimistic expectations when you don't run single-blind tests or some kind of objective measurements. I will propose an alternate explanation, that's all. And I have to say, I sincerely doubt that the internal programming of the two completely unrelated offset and drive parameters makes for any magic results when the numbers happen to agree on, say, green. That really could be an artifact of your expectations. (Not a severe criticism, BTW! I've been the victim of this during the running of audio-listening tests when I was in manufacturing in that rarified market.)

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post #1743 of 2962 Old 06-28-2006, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I put up a grayscale + pluge pattern from AVIA and froze it. There is a background and two faint dark bars on the left side of the gray patches. Their absolute and relative visibility was how I restored correct black level by lowering SBRT after raising the _CUT settings. The grayscale patches showed me that there was a color shift.

This is essentially what I did. I'm still puzzled as to why I don't get even similar results??? There must be a reason.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I tried to be sensitive to the "shadow" contrast as I ran these tests, and to the apparent brightness ratios of the gray patches. The apparent brightness differences among the two bars and background did not seem to change after the _CUT +16 plus SBRT -4. The two dark bars were still equally distinct from each other and from the background, no more or less so than before the adjustment, and also when I went back instantly with 0-Enter on the remote.

Hmmmm. Did you sample any 1080i program material or upconverted 1080i DVDs to see if the results materialized with practical viewing as the test patterns indicated??? If so, did the effect on washout seem equal to your eyes?

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I consider shadow "detail" to be a contrast factor, and so I don't understand how a ratio can apply without careful photometric measurement. I observe: Are the shadowed items distinct from each other? Are the folds in the dark fabric visible? Etc. If you were graphing this shadow area, screen brightness vs. video voltage, there would be a "toe" or slight tapering right at black, and how drawn-out this "toe" is determines how snappy the shadows look. (Less toe = higher slope = more, snappier detail, and more-distinct blacks.)

What I mean by shadow detail is the part of the picture than can be "lost as black" when the brightness is set too low or gamma set too high.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

No, I generally ignore upscaling. I'm letting my Panasonic S97 feed the TV with component 480i for these tests thru input V5. I could also use HDMI/480p with similar results. I have the two inputs tuned to look nearly identical.

Can you run some quick tests using 1080i to see if you get similar results? I always thought it makes the most sense to run these patterns with the set's native resolution, no? I'm always watching 1080i HD programming, 1080i HD-DVD, or 1080i upconverted DVDs, which is why I felt it made the most sense to calibrate using this resolution.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

No, don't get me wrong. I don't dispute your observations and pleasure at the results, although you run the risk of confirming your optimistic expectations when you don't run single-blind tests or some kind of objective measurements. I will propose an alternate explanation, that's all. And I have to say, I sincerely doubt that the internal programming of the two completely unrelated offset and drive parameters makes for any magic results when the numbers happen to agree on, say, green. That really could be an artifact of your expectations. (Not a severe criticism, BTW! I've been the victim of this during the running of audio-listening tests when I was in manufacturing in that rarified market.)

Perhaps your right, but I'm still sensing there is a chance we are doing something a little different and not quite comparing an equal result.
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post #1744 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 04:46 AM
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hi, just have to give you guys props! I see more depth in my image after raising my CUTS and DRIVES to their highest values while still attempting to get a level grey scale. However, there is a slight lack of red color as mentioned... I do not trust my eye and I know that if I kept my CUT or DRIVE settings so that they are not default or not professionally calibrated, I will constantly second guess the sets color. Anyhow, here are my new settings...

RDRV = 32 to 63
GDRV = 27 to 49
BDRV = 26 to 44
RCUT = 32 to 61
GCUT = 20 to 43
BCUT = 32 to 60
SBRT = 28 to 29
SBOF = 7 to 4
LRGB = 4 to 1

thx again for such great info guys
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post #1745 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKing View Post

hi, just have to give you guys props! I see more depth in my image after raising my CUTS and DRIVES to their highest values while still attempting to get a level grey scale. However, there is a slight lack of red color as mentioned... I do not trust my eye and I know that if I kept my CUT or DRIVE settings so that they are not default or not professionally calibrated, I will constantly second guess the sets color. Anyhow, here are my new settings...

RDRV = 32 to 63
GDRV = 27 to 49
BDRV = 26 to 44
RCUT = 32 to 61
GCUT = 20 to 43
BCUT = 32 to 60
SBRT = 28 to 29
SBOF = 7 to 4
LRGB = 4 to 1

thx again for such great info guys

Joe,

It's nice to see someone else is seeing the increased depth; however, your green and blue settings seem way too high for anywhere near an accurate greyscale.

Try something more in this range:

RDRV = 60-63
GDRV = 30-35
BDRV = 30-35
RCUT = 60-63
GCUT = 30-35
BCUT = 30-35

I'm using:

RDRV = 63
GDRV = 32
BDRV = 35
RCUT = 63
GCUT = 33
BCUT = 36

If you don't have a calibration disc, you can use the contrast check with any DVD that has the THX Optimizer. Pure white is displayed in the upper left and lower right of the contrast test pattern.
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post #1746 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 08:47 AM
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Tried some more experiments last night via comparing the pic modes and using the offsets in the same manner I noted in last post, but this time, I :

A). First Raised both _DOF/_COF for "cool" offset so that the "equivilent" RDRV was ~ 45. (RDOF~BCOF=44-44-44-44-44-44, or +13 for each from RDRV~BCUT values. Thought I'd try this, since it would result in "mid-range" average for the "equivilent" RDRV~BCUT values, even though it also resulted in relativiely low "PIC" slider settings. Adjusted Pic slider and brigtness slider for my "pic mode #2" new "cool offset" values. Observed what occured, including concerning greyscale as noted farther below.

B). Using the Cool offset, and values as noted in (A) as a "base" to work from, I attempted to then adjust RDOF~BCOF to first "match" greyscale as closely as possible, and/or "improve upon my "Pic mode #1 with "neutral"(RDRV~BCUT) settings. Note that I did not spend as much time on this as it probably deserves, however I believe I spent enough time to get a "good enough" idea, as noted farther below.

Concerning A), and Pic Mode #2 comparision to Pic mode #1 -- I noticed that, unlike when I just raised the _COF(equivilent to _CUT values) as described in last post -- this time If I needed to change the "brightness" slider at all(using the Pluge+Grey pattern from DVE, or the same(or similar pattern from MS) in the same manner as Ken noted in his last post), It was(suprisingly I thought) "UP" a click or two. Although, again it was difficult to say, given the (again) apparent change in gamma which also occured. Note that I had to Lower PIC slider by about 6~8 - Which resulted in Pic slider 15~17 for pic mode #2 vs. Pic slider="23" for my preferred screen brightness level for pic mode 1. Note that I only used my "eyes" to balance white level between pic mode #1 and 2, and I did not take the time to compare between the two and adjust PIC slider setting for Pic mode #2 by using the Canon Ftb's light meter as compartor for the most accurate results.

Note that the greyscale which resulted from (A). was Very much heavily "Pinkish" throughout brightness range. I did not take the time to look closely at the "linearity" of it.

Concerning (B) -- I did not meet with success concerning improving upon my current values for "neutral" - but I may not have spent "enough" time on it -- However, oddly enough I noticed that what I ended up with(which in any case would be "close" to what I'd need I'd think but with a little further tweaking perhaps required) would generally equate to being close to the same values as "neutral" for the GCUT+BCUT, although _RCUT seemed to still need to be up at 44(which would allow for the same value for RDRV and RCUT(45) ! -- Update to that - Oops! That was a little wrong! --- Looking at it a little more, settings equivilent to RDRV~BCUT= 46-31--20-46-27-23 seem very "close" to my currently preferred neutral settings, but with pic slider reduced by about 7, and Brightness slider redueced by about 1 (gamma still appears slightly different). In the lower, lower mid brightness range, while it produces in general very neutral grey, It's a little on the "red" side perhaps, compared to a little on the "green" side with my currently preferred neutral settings(which may be desireable), but also perhaps a tad bit on the cooler side CT wise ... Perhaps I might want to try the same general method, but starting from a point with RDRV at about "40" or "42" ....

At this point, on my particular set I'm skeptical that I'll be able to "improve" my greyscale by using a significantly different "range" for my RDRV~BCUT values than my current values of 32-18-8-23-17-14. (note that the Factory settings for Warm offset would(I believe) equate to 32-17-9-32-17-5). I wonder if mainly, regarding the folks who are apparently getting some "different" results with this sort of thing, that we are just seeing differences in non-linearity in the circuits for different individual sets, or perhaps in some cases differences in set "models" or manufacturing differences, or something along those lines.

And, the experiments last night helped me to see the RDRV~BCUT values I'm currently using *do* seem to be producing excellent greyscale, including linearity wise, but it may be perhaps a slight bit "cool" CT. And, apparently "in-range" preferred Gamma as well. I believe somewhere in the range of 2.20~2.36 or so from what I can tell by eye looking at the charts I've looked at, although I haven't checked it closely since my latest changes to RDRV~BCUT. And, It looks like the very slight "greenies" I referred to earlier *may* not really be there, and may be more a "figment" of something I thought I saw, as even light(or dark) tones in B*W content looks *very good* and doesn't seem to suffer from "greenies", or from +Red or +Blue/etc ....

By the way, my experiments last night did also seem to suggest that it does look like it would be fairly easily for me to redefine greyscale for a different preferred LOWER Picutre slider setting without causing any problems, generally by raising _DRV settings by the same amount and then making small adjustments.

Given a change of +13 for all _DRV resulted in ~ -7 for pic slider setting, and given it's necessary for SPIC=0 for some inputs such as 480i DRC -- I don't see how lowering the _DRV's would be desirable in order to raise my picture slider setting to a mid-point "31" for preferred screen brightness, given that this would likely result in BDRV setting of "0" or less in my case ... Only way I could perhaps accomplish that would be if I lower "SPIO" from it's factory "10" value, but as mentioned before, I'm a bit wary of doing that given the SM code listing chart says that should be adjusted with test equipment, as I'm not sure what all it might effect. I have tried it, and it looked to me that changing SPIO might do something a little "different" than adjusting the "picture slider, but I could be wrong, It's so difficult(and unwise) to depend upon your "eyes" when looking for such differences - I certianly wish I knew what such differences might be, however. Also, Given that my Black level adjustments are already "mid-range"(SBRT=28, 2170P-3 SBOF 1~5, Brightness slider=31), and Gamma that results from current settings seems desireable, I see no need to adjust _CUT to change that.

Jeff
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post #1747 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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This morning I ran more experiments investigating just one simple question: what is the effect of large changes in _DRV on near-black screen brightness. And at this point I have to fly the yellow flag of Unintended Consequences. Underneath these nice, simple numbers we change digitally are analog systems trying hard to cope with the problems of getting a CRT's guns to fire so that the colors balance at all brightnesses. In all cases of CRTs attempting to attain a neutral white of, say, 6500K, the red gun has the most work to do because that phosphor is the least sensitive to the beam. So any CRT monitor has to push the red gun much harder, as it were. Further, there are hidden nonlinearities we can't control -- only work around. Okay, that said . . .

I put up AVIA's "black bars" + gray steps again and also used the next pattern, black bars alone -- very valuable, it turns out. This time, I was in a fairly dark room.

(1) There is an unexpected, paradoxical effect of changing _DRV. When I reduced my RDRV from 45 to 0 on the black bars alone (nothing bright on-screen), a red glow appeared in the darkest areas, as if I had increased RCUT. Yikes! It happens with all three colors: Run that color's _DRV down to zero, and _CUT is somehow raised! Is this just a shifting of the cutoff point, or is it a black contamination? An alteration of the video-response curve?

(2) I compared over and over again two situations: (a) RDRV raised 18 notches to 63 and other colors raised to get roughly the same white CT as before. (They require only about 10 notches.) Reduced Picture about 5 points to cancel the extra white intensity. And (b) used my standard settings and normal Picture. On both, I used SBRT to vary black level up and down on the black-bars pattern, trying to see where the screen began glowing overall and when the bars each became visible.

Tentative result: As SBRT is increased from a jet-black screen, there seems to be more "black glow" appearing before the bars are clearly visible with the standard settings (b). With the elevated _DRVs of (a), the bars become visible against what appears to be a blacker background. This would support RWetmore's assertion of "blacker blacks," etc. and better shadow detail. This seems like a desirable situation, no?

But is there a cost to this? There are new questions to be answered, now. What is the effect on bright-area contrast? Is the red gun/amplifier starting to "top out" as it is cranked so high? Do these high _DRV settings result in blocked or washed-out highlights (never a problem with this TV!) or a cyan color shift from, say, 70% to 100% white? It's the Unintended Consequences monster, and we have to make sure we aren't concentrating on one attractive benefit (better shadows and blacks) and ignoring a decrease in quality elsewhere.

So . . . it really does appear that raising _DRV somehow suppresses the "toe" region of the overall video-response curve. It looks superficially like a lowering of _CUT, but it may, in fact, be a suppression of a background glow, a glow that compromises the black level. Yikes, are we getting obsessive about this, or what?

To be continued (obviously) . . .

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post #1748 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 02:35 PM
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Underneath these nice, simple numbers we change digitally are analog systems trying hard to cope with the problems of getting a CRT's guns to fire so that the colors balance at all brightnesses.

Glad to see you are starting to get the picture. BTW, I can get a pretty flat grayscale form 10 IRE to 100 IRE for 480i/p, 720p and 1080i in a couple hours.

There is a reason tri-stimulus color analyzers exist and why most calibrators use them.

You haven't researched G-2 voltages yet?

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post #1749 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW, I can get a pretty flat grayscale form 10 IRE to 100 IRE for 480i/p, 720p and 1080i in a couple hours.

There is a reason tri-stimulus color analyzers exist and why most calibrators use them.

You haven't researched G-2 voltages yet?

And this contributes to this DIY forum how, exactly?

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post #1750 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 05:43 PM
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And this contributes to this DIY forum how, exactly?

Just a reality check, some may be interested to know you have been tweaking your TV for over a year now and you still don't have the gray scale done.........

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post #1751 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 08:17 PM
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Very sad ...... Oh, well, best just to ignore such nonsense, I suppose .....

-------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tech View Post

(1) There is an unexpected, paradoxical effect of changing _DRV. When I reduced my RDRV from 45 to 0 on the black bars alone (nothing bright on-screen), a red glow appeared in the darkest areas, as if I had increased RCUT. Yikes! It happens with all three colors: Run that color's _DRV down to zero, and _CUT is somehow raised!

I updated my last post a bit, you may not have seen it. I think you may find the below interesting.

I found The two different sets of settings listed farther below produce quite (but not quite "exactly the same") similar results (with different White level/black level settings for each "set" of settings of course).

Both of the below settings produce quite linear greyscale throughout all levels of brightness, but CT doesn't quite track between the two "perfectly". Especially note what I had to do(substanitally more +RCUT) for "RCUT" to make these as "similar" as possible. Also note I didn't spend a lot of time trying to get it to match perfectly, as I was only doing this for experimental reasons :

RDRV~BCUT - 32-18-8-23-17-14

RDRV~BCUT - 46-31-20-46-27-23

Interesting how those "track" - (*disclaimer and NOTE for *trolls on this thread* these are NOT meant to be "exact" representation of *anything*! ) .... Some of this must be due to some non-linearity in the "circuits" so to speak, that is probably particular to my set, and some of it is due to me not taking the time to *tweak* to perfection for most similarity between the two -- but, I expect that does not explain it *all* by any means :

RDRV = +14
GDRV = +13
BDRV = +12
RCUT = +23
GCUT = +10
BCUT =+9

Note: I did, perhaps have the greyscale matching "overall" between the two a little more closely with RDRV~BCUT = 44-31-22-44-27-25, (+12, +13, +14, +21, +10, +9 )except for CT, which was seemingly a bit cooler with Set(set up with pic mode #2 per my earlier post(s) ... So, I raised RDRV/RCUT a couple of notches, and lowered BDRV/BCUT the same, and contrary to my update on this in last post -- I noticed under dark room conditions(per comparisons via the differently set up "pic modes" as noted in earlier posts) that this "2nd pic mode"(with this set up via "cool" offset), its now, apparently just a bit WARMER CT wise than Pic mode #1/neutral(1st set of settings noted above) ...

So, FWIW and in case it is of any interest, I expect it is possible this may be a slightly different example, of the same issue you noticed+described from your experiment this morning ...

Jeff
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post #1752 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 09:37 PM
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Ken,

I haven't noticed any washed out highs or any significant color shifts from my high DRV/CUT settings. Can we objectively test for this? I also didn't notice any any loss of clarity or bleeding highs as a result either. I did have to back off the regular contrast or "Picture" setting though, but that seemed to be it.

Did you have a chance to try getting similar results by running the test patterns via 1080i instead of 480p or i? I'm still quite perplexed why raising the CUT and DRV settings up high didn't affect my SBRT levels at all on my set?? I am using the AVIA black bars only pattern in a dark room for my tests.

I sense that essentially what is happening is that somehow with high DRV and CUT settings there is a significant net shadow detail increase that is somehow not tied to the "washout" effect of raising SBRT. Not only does this increase shadow detail without increasing washout, but it also allows SBRT to be set at its lowest point of accuracy according the test pattern. The net result is deeper blacks and better shadow detail, which of course translates into increased depth and realism of the picture.
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post #1753 of 2962 Old 06-29-2006, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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This evening I went for broke and tried RWetmore's idea of running _DRVs up to max, balancing out the grayscale, and living with it for a while -- well, at least half an evening.

Sorry to say, I don't like it. I couldn't even-up the grayscale for love nor money! When I got highlights just right and shadows to match, I had a cyanish mid-tone coloration that wouldn't go away. When I tried to tweak RCUT to experiment with the dark end of the range, I found that one notch increase didn't have nearly the effect I expected. I did the best I could with grayscale and watched programs during the evening, but I noticed (a) no perceptible improvement in blacks or shadows -- or at least none that I was willing to trade for (b) "off" colors in the mid-tones, confirmed when I turned Color all the way down. Further tweaking didn't help: If I got rid of the lower-mid-gray green/cyan, the shadows got too red or magenta. Bottom line : Cranking the _DRVs up on my set gave me a much "lumpier" grayscale, with errors I couldn't correct. I felt like I was running afoul of built-in limitations.

All we can adjust are the top and bottom ends of the video-response curve. If the middle is screwed up (mid-grays), there's no separate adjustment, except for a very coarse 1-notch gamma tweak for one or two colors. And that's an act of desperation!

So, back to my usual settings, centering on 30-ish. I may go the other direction a bit to see what happens. But tonight the grays snapped right into place when I restored the old settings. End of that experiment for me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Did you have a chance to try getting similar results by running the test patterns via 1080i instead of 480p or i?

No, and I won't bother with that test. The color adjustments we are tinkering with occur long after the input video is converted to the video-display mode of choice. If you are getting differential color effects (with Color at normal) going from, say, V5 to HDMI or HDMI/480p to HDMI/1080i, there are specific adjustments for much of that in a different control group, 2170P-1. See the chart I published in post #892 for clarification. With Color turned down all the way, the scan rates shouldn't matter a whit.

KenTech
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post #1754 of 2962 Old 06-30-2006, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

This evening I went for broke and tried RWetmore's idea of running _DRVs up to max, balancing out the grayscale, and living with it for a while -- well, at least half an evening.

Did you also equally crank up the _CUTs? The "effect" only works if you do both.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Sorry to say, I don't like it. I couldn't even-up the grayscale for love nor money! When I got highlights just right and shadows to match, I had a cyanish mid-tone coloration that wouldn't go away. When I tried to tweak RCUT to experiment with the dark end of the range, I found that one notch increase didn't have nearly the effect I expected. I did the best I could with grayscale and watched programs during the evening, but I noticed (a) no perceptible improvement in blacks or shadows -- or at least none that I was willing to trade for (b) "off" colors in the mid-tones, confirmed when I turned Color all the way down. Further tweaking didn't help: If I got rid of the lower-mid-gray green/cyan, the shadows got too red or magenta. Bottom line : Cranking the _DRVs up on my set gave me a much "lumpier" grayscale, with errors I couldn't correct. I felt like I was running afoul of built-in limitations.

Hmmmmm. On my set, I don't seem to have any off mid-tone coloration, or I at least don't see any. It did take me days to find an acceptable greyscale though. Also, are you watching 1080i material? The effect on shadow detail I got isn't the slightest bit subtle. The difference is night and day. I was previously using _DRV and _CUT settings a little lower than you, which may be a factor in my seeing such a big difference, but with you raising yours 10+ each, it seems weird you are not getting any material increase in shadow detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

No, and I won't bother with that test. The color adjustments we are tinkering with occur long after the input video is converted to the video-display mode of choice. If you are getting differential color effects (with Color at normal) going from, say, V5 to HDMI or HDMI/480p to HDMI/1080i, there are specific adjustments for much of that in a different control group, 2170P-1. See the chart I published in post #892 for clarification. With Color turned down all the way, the scan rates shouldn't matter a whit.

My concern isn't color, but black level. A 1080i signal on these sets produces a much deeper black level than 480p - making it much harder to get shadow detail without washout. I'm concerned that the effects of high DRVs and CUTs would be significantly less with 480p/i. I really think this may account for our inconsistent observations???
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post #1755 of 2962 Old 06-30-2006, 09:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

On my set, I don't seem to have any off mid-tone coloration, or I at least don't see any. It did take me days to find an acceptable greyscale though. Also, are you watching 1080i material?

I don't get it. A faulty grayscale is why I was seeing unauthentic mid-tone color. And I routinely watch 1080i broadcasts on PBS and other networks with great pleasure. I have separately tweaked the 2170P settings for 1080i ATSC/QAM so the picture has exactly the same range as a reference from DVD. My usual TV-watching may differ significantly from yours, making me less motivated to seek after "improved" shadow detail -- at what cost?

I don't watch 1080i upscaled from DVD, since that picture is inferior to 480p via the same HDMI connection and 480i via component. (The Sony's display of 480p is perfect. The S97 player's upsampling compromises textures, making it look too smooth, and I don't pay attention to the scan lines anyway on 480p.)

I have to say, I am thrilled by the blacks and shadow detail on this TV with my usual settings, and so I don't know what I am seeking and what it might cost. I now know that things get a little weird at the very high end of _DRV and I am reluctant to sacrifice a perfect grayscale for anything else.

Another day, I may try raising both _DRV and _CUT to see what happens. I'm still curious, but I so enjoy what I have with the usual settings.

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post #1756 of 2962 Old 06-30-2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Another day, I may try raising both _DRV and _CUT to see what happens. I'm still curious, but I so enjoy what I have with the usual settings.

By all means to compare what I have done, you ABSOLUTELY have to raise both equally. This goes for program viewing and the viewing of test patterns. Just raising the _DRVs or the _CUTs alone totally screws everything up. I know because I tried it many times.

Try following the general approach I outlined in this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7904603

At least if you do this, I know we will have followed the same procedure, which hopefully means we are more likely comparing a similar "effect." It will definately take some time to fine tune the greyscale, but if you do this, and then recalibrate SBRT to where you can just barely see the black bars in the black bars only pattern (in a dark room), I'll know we are comparing apples to apples. You may still not like the result though, which is fine.
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post #1757 of 2962 Old 06-30-2006, 04:56 PM
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anyone else have any say


yes?
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post #1758 of 2962 Old 06-30-2006, 06:34 PM
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shorter verison of this post:

In short, I've ended up with RDRV~BCUT=43-27-16-42-26-20 . While I suppose it's possible there may be room for some "refinement", at this point, I can't imagine why, as it looks absolutely beautiful via tests with various test patterns and while watching *real* programming (HD and SD) since last night.

Does seem a little odd my Pic Slider has to be down around "19~20" for my preferred screen brightness level, but that doesn't really bother me any, especially as the same preferred screen brightness level(compared with light meter on Canon Ftb 35mm SLR camera) resulted with factory defaults mentioned below with a pic slider setting of around "23", a difference of only about 4 clicks on the slider. I haven't detirmined the exact SBRT setting yet, but looks like it will probably be 28, or possibly 27 for brightness slider=31. I've only looked at one gamma chart I have on MS (need to check the calibration DVD's), but at this point(and reading those charts "correctly" does seem a bit difficult for me) looks like gamma is at around 2.20~2.27.

So, on my particular KD34XBR960, per some of the below, there *does* seem to be something to setting RDRV~BCUT at mid-range(average 29, total=174) values vs. the "lower" than average settings equivilent to the warm factory offset(equivilent to RDRV~BCUT=32-17-9-32-17-5, whaich was average = 18.66/total 112).

-------------------------------------------

Longer, More version of this post follows, with more detailed info concerning my adjustments for greyscale, and with corrections and or refinement to values/etc. posted concerning my recent greyscale experiments as posted in my last couple of posts in this thread :

I've further refined my greyscale settings experiments per the experiments via comparisions of identically configured Picture modes other than, per pic mode used for the "experiments", making use of RDOF~BCOF (warm/cool) offsets along with the "color temp" user menu choice, and adjusting Brightness/Picture sliders in sepearate pic modes using "mode memory On", so I could keep the other pic mode for comparison with my usual settings (netural color temp, Pic/brightness slider settings as "usual"/etdc) as explained in more detail in earlier posts.

My main focus here was to see, if by either raising or lowering _DRV~_CUT("toghether" with the adjustments necessary) I could improve greyscale and achieve excellent greyscale linearity while at the same time, a preferred color temp without any particular "shade of overall" "weird" looking slight color aberrations occuring throughout brightness range. As, although I've gotten close to that, it has been quite difficult, and seemingly impossible to accomplish this on my set while staying in the same general range for _DRV~_CUT as the factory "warm offset" defaults.

First, off, since my last post, - even though it was VERY linear all the way from 0(or 7.5 IRE for NTSC if you want to get really technical) to 100 IRE -- I noticed via these comparisions to the settings mentioned below that it was quite apparent my previous RDRV~BCUT settings of 32-18-8-23-17-14, were not only on the "cool" side CT wise, it was also slightly -red and, to a lesser extent +blue(or +green a little as well), to the extent of causing a slight "aqua-greensish/bluish" overall color tone to the greyscale. So, because of that, the report I provided in last post which seemed to indicate a greater "difference" needed for +RCUT was erronous.

First, I tried starting by raising to the equivilent of "RDRV=45", and, without spending a lot of time on it, I came up with equivilent RDRV~BCUT = "47-31-20-46-30-23" (note: I erronously reported RDRV as "46" for these settings in earlier post). Having adjusted those fairly quickly for good greyscale linearity, This however resulted in a CT perceivably a bit "cooler" than the settings mentioned above, as well as it appeared, a bit +Blue and +red overall throughout brightness range. To the extent it didn't look promising, except I noticed I had gotten rid of that weird "aqua bluish/greenish" tint to things.

So, I then tried lowering the "equivilent of" RDRV a few "clicks", and adjusting the other _DRV/_CUT as necessary for CT and greyscale linearity throughout brightness range ... From this, I ended up with settings of 43-27-16-42-26-20. Although the method I used to do this was *NOT* to simply "lower" everything 4 clicks from the settings mentioned in last paragraph -- surprise, surprise, I just noticed when writing this post, as it turns out that is *exact* result. In short, with these settings, for *eureka* .. For whatever reason, something "magic" happened, in the sense that the results I have been looking for Greyscale wise all along FINALLY appeared on my screen ....

To me, when Greyscale(and black/white levels are set appropriately, Gamma in range of ~2.20 and and accurate color decoding is occuring) is set "just right", for lack of a better way to say it ... the result I get with real programming appears very "lifelike", or "photo-realistic" across the entire brightness range, and there is no, one apparent color of aberration(any one particular color "standing out" more than others) with Greyscale charts or B&W programming. Or, as another way to say it ... for example, you get the "perfect looking" CT, with Nice Warm whites, and "black blacks" and "pleasing" midtones of (generally) "neutral(but "lifelike looking" if that makes sense) greys in between.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

So, next, using RDRV~BCUT= 43-27-16-42-26-20 as "reference", I then endeavored to try to "match" the greyscale with an offset equivilent starting of for instance, "RDRV=32" as closely as possible with a Offset+different pic mode(different black/white level settings per pic/brightness sliders as necessary) for comparsion. Surprisingly, I was able to get much closer than what I had thought was possible before, but still not quite "close enough" per the below settings/info :

RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-30-17-11 - This is VERY close to matching overall, however, it results in an annoying "yellowishness", most noticed by my eyes at both higher and lower IRE's.

RDRV~BCUT = 32-17-7-28-17-13 - While this matches in lower brightness levels, extremely closely, mid-High brightness levels(especially High IRE's) look a little "cool", and also are "pinkish".


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noticing that the biggest "change" needed to keep greyscale "close to the same" when "rasing the DRV/CUTS" was a change in RCUT -- I also tried several other settings, using RDRV= 34, 35 and 38 to start with. I didn't spend a lot of time on it(as it seemed unnecessary) but, I could come up with nothing "as good" as either my settings mentioned above starting with "RDRV=32", nor the settings starting with "RDRV=43". HOWEVER, I did notice the necessary larger, change in RCUT(as compared to other _DRV/_CUT settings) which was needed when going between settings starting with "RDRV=32" and "RDRV=43" was needed for these 3 settings in the mid~high 30's for "RDRV" as well. I can't explain at this point why I didn't notice this change between the settings starting with "RDRV=43" and "RDRV=47", other than to again point out, given that I had seen something I didn't like when I first moved the settings that "high", I didn't spend much time with it, and chances are, it may need a little "higher" RCUT as well.

So(and I *did* look closely enough at this this time to feel relatively confident about reporting it accurately) ------ on MY particular set, Between RDRV~BCUT = 32-18-8-30-17-11(or 32-17-7-28-17-13), and RDRV~BCUT 43-27-16-42-26-20, both of which produce VERY similar(but not quite exact) greyscale(linearity and CT wise) given white/black levels are adjusted "differently" accordingly ----- For convienience(in case it's of some use to others, although I think it's probably very doubtful any two sets will track "exactly" the same), The DRV/CUT's "tracked" as follows, and, the testing I did seemed to indicate the same ratio would apply for RDRV~BCUT which also somewhat closely match those greyscale results, with RDRV starting at "34, 35, or 38" (and I expect anywhere at least in the range between RDRV=32 and RDRV=43).

RDRV = +11
GDRV = +9 (or +10)
BDRV = + 8 (or +9)
RCUT = ~ +12 or +14
GCUT = +9
BCUT = ~ +7 or +9

Jeff
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post #1759 of 2962 Old 07-01-2006, 04:19 AM
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I need some help.

I was trying to fix overscan issues with my 30XS955 and I noticed the electron beam doesn't draw the whole picture. So even though I maximized the viewable picture on screen, I'm still missing some picture around the edge that isn't being drawn, particuarly the left side.

How do I fix this?
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post #1760 of 2962 Old 07-01-2006, 08:39 AM
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zitomil,

Search this thread for such items as "HBLK", "RBLK" or "LBLK" or "blanking" or "shutter" and I'd think you should find info pertaining to your issue. The latter portion of the below post for instance, contains some info which should be of interest :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ng#post5906338

Jeff
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post #1761 of 2962 Old 07-01-2006, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

zitomil,

Search this thread for such items as "HBLK", "RBLK" or "LBLK" or "blanking" or "shutter" and I'd think you should find info pertaining to your issue. The latter portion of the below post for instance, contains some info which should be of interest :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ng#post5906338

Super!!! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
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post #1762 of 2962 Old 07-02-2006, 03:03 PM
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For people with 34xbr960 and HD DVD players... I have found an amazingly good screen for adjusting focus! If you go into the setup screen for the player, go to maintainence, then go to update, then hit OK, at the license agreement page there is the smallest text ever and it covers the entire screen (even to the extreme edges)... this screen will show even the slightest imperfections as far as focus goes. The text does not quite hit the extreme upper right portion of the screen. This can be easily solved however if you do horizontal expand within your set you can get the upper right portion of the screen covered. Next, adjust focus.

The first focus value was changed to 10.... The focus adjustment for the middle portion of the screen(DPDC?) was changed from 43 to 41... and the last two focus adjustments(DF and DQP?) were changed from 34 and 30 to 38 and 31... All text was ledgable and unsmeared when I was finished regardless of how far along the edges the text was.

Text really is a lot better than dots as far as adjusting focus imo because you can really see the difference unliKe with dots where the shape of the dot changes as it gets smaller and when you have the smallest dots, you do not neccessarily have the sharpest focus.

Here is something else I noticed... When I put DF lower than the default of 34, I felt I got reddish whites... When I put DF to 38 I feel that for some reason images appeared a little green at times... It is very slight though and I don't know if I am perceiving something that isn't there or not... I also think that after messing with the set's CUTs and DRIVES I have become more sensitive to the set's color.
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post #1763 of 2962 Old 07-02-2006, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKing View Post

For people with 34xbr960 and HD DVD players... I have found an amazingly good screen for adjusting focus! If you go into the setup screen for the player, go to maintainence, then go to update, then hit OK, at the license agreement page there is the smallest text ever and it covers the entire screen (even to the extreme edges)... this screen will show even the slightest imperfections as far as focus goes. The text does not quite hit the extreme upper right portion of the screen. This can be easily solved however if you do horizontal expand within your set you can get the upper right portion of the screen covered. Next, adjust focus.

The first focus value was changed to 10.... The focus adjustment for the middle portion of the screen(DPDC?) was changed from 43 to 41... and the last two focus adjustments(DF and DQP?) were changed from 34 and 30 to 38 and 31... All text was ledgable and unsmeared when I was finished regardless of how far along the edges the text was.

Text really is a lot better than dots as far as adjusting focus imo because you can really see the difference unliKe with dots where the shape of the dot changes as it gets smaller and when you have the smallest dots, you do not neccessarily have the sharpest focus.

Wow, thanks a bunch for posting this. I hadn't been able to really adjust my focus very well because I didn't have a good pattern to use, but this worked great. Highly recommended.
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post #1764 of 2962 Old 07-03-2006, 02:05 PM
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I just took delivery of a new Sony XBR970 today and figured I'd start out simply in Service mode by fixing its substantial vertical and horizontal overscan. I saw a minor horizontal pincusion problem which was easily fixed, and I then hit Mute and Enter to save my new settings. For some reason, that brought up the built-in cross-hatch generator and now I connot get rid of it.

None of the remote's buttons will take me back to the regular display, and unplugging the set and turning it back on just gets me about 1 second of regular video before the cross-hatch kicks in again. I've tried re-entering Service mode, but even then I can only seem to get the cross-hatch. I read somewhere that the TV/Video button is supposed to control the built-in cross-hatch pattern, but pressing it doesn't appear to have any effect.

Any suggestions to get me back to regular viewing mode would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

Colin Hunter
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post #1765 of 2962 Old 07-03-2006, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrhunter View Post

I just took delivery of a new Sony XBR970 today and figured I'd start out simply in Service mode by fixing its substantial vertical and horizontal overscan. I saw a minor horizontal pincusion problem which was easily fixed, and I then hit Mute and Enter to save my new settings. For some reason, that brought up the built-in cross-hatch generator and now I connot get rid of it.

None of the remote's buttons will take me back to the regular display, and unplugging the set and turning it back on just gets me about 1 second of regular video before the cross-hatch kicks in again. I've tried re-entering Service mode, but even then I can only seem to get the cross-hatch. I read somewhere that the TV/Video button is supposed to control the built-in cross-hatch pattern, but pressing it doesn't appear to have any effect.

Any suggestions to get me back to regular viewing mode would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

Colin Hunter

Read #1426
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post #1766 of 2962 Old 07-03-2006, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by ptchristensen View Post

Read #1426

Thank you very much for the pointer - the information worked and I'm now able to view video once more. I'd tried searching the thread before postimg my question but I'd searched on "crosshatch" which didn't give anything useful.

Again, many thanks, and so quickly as well!

Colin Hunter
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post #1767 of 2962 Old 07-04-2006, 10:56 AM
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I have a WEGA KV-29FS110 CRT, 29" and I have some doubts:

1) If anybody has a similar model, wich values you have for the SCON, SHUE, SCOL & SBRT parameters of the SM (both for PAL-N and NTSC)?

2) When full withe screen appears, I can see a soften pink circle arround the screen... did anybody know why this happens?

3) Is there any posibility or a parameter in the SM to add numbers to the bars when setting the levels of color, contrast, etc. in the standard menu? this model came with small horizontal bars that make a long horizontal bar, but no numbers!!! it's very unconfortable

like this:

contrast ||||||||||||
brigthnes |||||||||
color ||||||||||||||


4) I can't find Y-DC parameter... did anybody know any other name for this parameter?


Sorry for my english
Thanks in advance!!!!

Alex
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post #1768 of 2962 Old 07-05-2006, 01:04 PM
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Hello All.
*great* discussion!...

I'm new to HDTV Ownership, and calibration;
but I've been lurking in this forum for a few weeks now;
and have read and learned as much as I can.

When I purchased my 30HS420 a few weeks ago
(new, factory-sealed @ a local retailer on *wicked* clearance sale)
I originally only intended to purchace DVE and clibrate via the User Menu controls only. But after making compromises for 'red push', and not being totally happy with the resultant clarity; I decided to follow how-to-instructions in this thread and enter the Service Menu.

So far, I'm extermely impressed!

Last night I adjusted for:
(please keep in mind that I use my set for standard cable (RF) 480i & DVD (component) 480p inputs only right now. No 1080 at all...)

2170P-1: SBRT
(with the User Menu Brightness centered, I only had to adjust this a point or two for DVD (component input)...still have to adjust UBOF for RF input )

2170P-3: SYSM
(set to 3 for 480p (DVD, component) and 2 for 480i (RF, standard cable)

2170P-3: VMLV-VMDL
(all set to 0)

2170P-3: SHOF
(set to 0)

2170P-3: VM-VML
(all set to 0)

2170P-4: RYR - GYB
(I ended up with 10, 15, 6, 2? See my remaining questions below...)

2170D-4: QPDC
(with User Menu Sharpness centered, I found the factory setting (29) to be correct; and frankly, am too chicken to mess with the more specific settings in this group )

MID 5: MHLY-MVCE
(all set to 0; RF (cable) & Component (DVD) inputs)

In making these adjustments I have some questions:

1. Using the DVE color calibration slide, when setting the levels I know that the affected color blocks for each color (blue, red, green) should match *eachother*; but should they also be set to "blend" in with the 75% gray background as well?
I have trouble getting green, especially, to blend with the background. My resultant calibrated settings for RYR - GYB of 10-15-6-2 seem to differ quite a bit from the common reported settings in this forum? Especially the first and last numbers...This calibration was done with the DVE filters. Tonight I'll try setting again by adjusting 2170P-2: RGBS settings to gate the color output.

2. I've been reading here that the wholesale setting of the VM* codes to 0 is not a blanket solution. Any specific instructions out there for tweaking for cable (RF) and DVD (component) inputs?

3. My DVD player (Pioneer 563A) did not output the -4% black (for the Pulge test pattern in DVE) at it's centered setting for Brightness. So, I jumped it up one click, and now it does display the -4% black. Is this going to affect other inputs negatively? Is this where setting UBOF comes in to play?

4. When calibrating with DVE, should I be sending 480p or 480i from the player? Does it matter?

5. I haven't come across any info on utilizing the Service Codes for setting Picture? Do most of you just adjust this via the User Menu? (All other settings 'centered'?) Also, I have a lot of trouble guaging where to set Picture. My set just doesn't go into very obvious blooming. Any advice? (Although, I've independently set it 4 times now, and I always end up at the *exact* same setting of 27....)

6. My set does have a geometry issue: it bends outward in the lower left corner. This is something that is servicable under Sony 90 day warranty, right? I'd rather have a Tech come out and fix this, rather than messing in the Service Menus myself. Most of the example docs posted here list symmetrical geometry irregularities. But this is definitely just on one side.

My next steps:

1. I may try and optimize sharpness a bit more, and 'tune' it for my two inputs (dvd, cable). I think I'll start with KenTech's article on 'Tuning the 2103 Processor for the Cleanest, Sharpest Picture'. And maybe play with mimicing some of his posted examples for the 2170P-3:VM* series, MID 5 group, and 2170P-3: SYSM...

2. There's *no way* I'm going to try and adjust grayscale and/or gamma. I'm just too chicken. I don't trust my eye trying to match overcast skies outside... The discussions in this thread start out in a managable realm, for me; but toward the end it's getting way over my hurting head... I'm also guessing that these later tweaks are much more subtle that the earlier, well documented ones that I've started to make?

All in all, I'm excited to be able to improve the picture so strikingly. And also a bit dissapointed that they just don't ship 'em this way! And I'm glad I bought a Sony. (I looked at Toshiba's briefly, lured by lower price and smaller size....)

--
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post #1769 of 2962 Old 07-05-2006, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aleavsf View Post

3) Is there any posibility or a parameter in the SM to add numbers to the bars when setting the levels of color, contrast, etc. in the standard menu?

I have never seen any setting on our DA-4-based TVs (the service mode we know) that can do this. The design of the user-menu has numbers built-in, and I see no options for adding or removing the numbers. I understand your frustration! I hate those "bars" with no numbers!
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4) I can't find Y-DC parameter... did anybody know any other name for this parameter?

I will venture a guess that it might be the DC-restoration setting, i.e. what determines whether the black level stays exactly the same when the video material goes from dim to very bright. In our service mode, that parameter sems to be 2170P-4/DCTR. Here are the descriptions from an 34XBR2 manual (in 2170P-4):

DCTR = DC transfer ratio. 0=103%, 1-100%, 2=93%, 3=85%. [I leave this set to 1.]
DPIC or APED = Auto pedestal level. 0=OFF, 1-3 = IRE "kneedown" of 30, 35, and 40. [Set to 0.]
DSBO = Sub-brightness offset for UBLK (?). 0=-7, 7=0, 15=+8 "steps." [Set to 7.]

There are also two settings in 2103-1 which seem to duplicate a couple of these:

ATPD = Auto pedestal point. 0="through," 1=20 IRE, 2=30 IRE, 3=30 IRE.
DCTR = DC transfer ratio. 0=100%, 1=95%, 2=90%, 3=85%.
[These last are set ot 0 on my set.]

I have not experimented much with these settings. I don't want the TV messing with my black level, so I have tried to disable all such effects. The above settings depend on the value of BLK, the master setting for auto-black-level feature; i.e. each has four possible values that are preset for BLK 0 thru 3. I have BLK=0. Examining the data charts makes these relationships much more plain.

Hope this helps.

KenTech
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post #1770 of 2962 Old 07-05-2006, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corlay View Post

1. Using the DVE color calibration slide, when setting the levels I know that the affected color blocks for each color (blue, red, green) should match *eachother*; but should they also be set to "blend" in with the 75% gray background as well?

Welcome to the Forum! Yes, they should. Do them in the order blue-red-green. Use the blue to adjust Color and Hue, too before proceeding.
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I have trouble getting green, especially, to blend with the background. My resultant calibrated settings for RYR - GYB of 10-15-6-2 seem to differ quite a bit from the common reported settings in this forum? Especially the first and last numbers...This calibration was done with the DVE filters. Tonight I'll try setting again by adjusting 2170P-2: RGBS settings to gate the color output.

I would toss the plastic filter card and, for sure, and use the RGBS controls instead: 7=normal, 4=red, 2=green, 1=blue, and (watch out!) 0=black screen. If you hit 0 accidentally, just go back up to another color. Most folks have compromised on settings near 14-14-6-4. Even when I vacillate among different settings for the first two parameters, the -6-4 part seems solid.

The HS420 uses different phosphors from the newer fine-pitch tubes, but I'll bet that doesn't affect the above color settings.

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