THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 2973 Old 07-02-2005, 07:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

KenTech, after reading your article the other day I tried several of the items you mentioned with various to little success. I tend to agree with Crochunter (somewhat) on the SYSM setting. I have left mine at 1 for everything except HD content which stayed at 3.
Changing the SYSM setting (with 480p from DVE & AVIA) & (1080i from ESPNHD frozen frame) caused the picture to shift horizontally with minor sharpness changes. SYSM @ 2 is a little coarse and 1 has the best compromise with DVD.
HD 1080i still looks best with a setting of 3 for all modes.
I wonder if since you may have used the memory stick for your images that you may see these differences ??
I still don't understand why the picture moves (left - right) with SYSM setting ???
Also, like Croc I'm keeping VM off with default pro settings on all pic modes (VM=0, VMH=12, VMM=8 & VML=4).
Lastly, I will try your MIDE setting on unused MID5/POP value of 60/61.

Todd

Todd, VM is not off with those settings you posted, if you want it completely off you have to change those four to 0.HD and DVD will loook a lot better with them off.
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post #152 of 2973 Old 07-03-2005, 01:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

Todd, VM is not off with those settings you posted, if you want it completely off you have to change those four to 0.HD and DVD will loook a lot better with them off.

No, Croc, this is not how it works. Those four VM settings are what you get *added on* when you choose a strength of the ClearEdge VM feature. If you set ClearEdge to zero, it's zero.

But there may be *other sources* of VM *not related* to those settings in 2170P-3/VM-VML. I describe those in my discussion of settings for image decoding in my article #12, post #41 in this thread. The article and a chart are in the attached PDF file.

In summary, I am speculating, based on how the effect appears, that one of the three settings, 2170P-3 #6-8, SHOF-PROV, seems to add a kind of VM. I prefer the effect OFF, and I recommend that in my article. So if Todd is going to try my MID5 settings for MIDE #60/61, he willl have NO VM in effect when he is using any display mode with ClearEdge VM OFF. None. He can leave VML-VMH alone.

I also believe that the setting of SYSM to 1 adds a considerable coarseness that is as gross as badly-configured VM, in my opinion. The reason for the shift of the video display to the right is because a small delay has been added to the incoming video so a calculated edge-enhancement of some sort can be added to it. It has to be added just *before* the actual edge-event occurs for it to act as an unsharp-mask, and this can be done by delaying the main video and adding the non-delayed enhancement.

And I strongly disagree with the myth that the picture *always* looks better with VM off. If VM is tweaked for a fine, rather than a coarse, effect, and is used in moderation, it provides a valuable image enhancement that cannot be rendered any other way -- such a diddling with sharpening parameters, etc. It's Sony's *default* VM settings that are fairly gross, and the correct application of VM should not be condemned because of that.

I discuss this in article #12, too. 2170P-3 #2-5, VMCR thru VMDL *completely determine* the "look" of VM, just as VMH-VML determine the *amount* available, and I suggested there some settings to try. Bottom line: be open-minded, but if you don't like what it does to the video material *you* are watching, turn CLearEdge off in the user menu! But don't dismiss the use of VM out of hand!

KenTech
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post #153 of 2973 Old 07-03-2005, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

And I strongly disagree with the myth that the picture *always* looks better with VM off. If VM is tweaked for a fine, rather than a coarse, effect, and is used in moderation, it provides a valuable image enhancement that cannot be rendered any other way -- such a diddling with sharpening parameters, etc. It's Sony's *default* VM settings that are fairly gross, and the correct application of VM should not be condemned because of that.

...But don't dismiss the use of VM out of hand!

I heartily agree. I have come to view, pun intended, ClearEdge VM as my friend. Used in moderation, as suggested, this is a true enhancement.

Cheers & Happy 4th to all US participants!
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post #154 of 2973 Old 07-04-2005, 09:22 PM
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Hi KenTech, (or anyone else that may know)

CRT hot spots: Can this be adjusted via the SM?

I tried going over your very useful tips on this thread but I couldn't find anything directly related to this issue.

I have a Sony 30Xs955. I sometimes notice some sort of "hot spotting" issue going on in the middle of the screen when images pan left or right (On light backgrounds) at med to fast speeds. It's basically non existant on still images, dark backgrounds or on very slow pans. I know this is could sometimes happen on Projection systems (I see this all the time at my local cineplex) but I'm not sure if this can be adjusted on a direct view CRT such as my Sony.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Is this just a common CRT issue like Geometry and Magnetic Interference problems? Can this be tweaked via the service menu or should I just suck it up and stop being so picky? (I have a feeling if I call in a Tech they would most likely say this is within "spec" since the abnormality is somewhat faint)

Thanks,

-RC
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post #155 of 2973 Old 07-05-2005, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nefilim242 View Post

CRT hot spots: Can this be adjusted via the SM?
. . . or should I just suck it up and stop being so picky?

No. Yes.

In spite of my own motivation to address hot-spotting, I have never found a solution. The service tech I had out to my home to help with a static-convergence issue simply smiled when I asked about it. (At least he didn't laugh and point!) It apparently *is* inherent in these sets. Some compensation has already been applied, but the very center has a vertically-elongated hot spot on every one of these sets I have seen.

With my own video camera, I have a habit of slow pans on vast scenics, and *that's* where the hot spot really is obvioous. Lots of blue sky, things like that. But I can go through an entire evening of regular TV without noticing it, generally.

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post #156 of 2973 Old 07-05-2005, 12:04 PM
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Thanks for the clarification.

I'm glad to know that it's not just unique to my set. Now I can finally put my mind at ease until I find something else i want to tweak

-RC
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post #157 of 2973 Old 07-05-2005, 03:29 PM
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Let's just say that a "friend of mine" actually did reset the settings to "factory-newborn" on his 34XBR960. Since everything is totally out of wack, he started writing in the "default" settings, from one of the available charts.

He has now been tweaking for several days, but horisontal lines and the i-guide menues are bend like a hammock and he's really not a happy camper.

Is there any way that a Sony technician can restore the default settings.
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post #158 of 2973 Old 07-05-2005, 06:41 PM
 
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[quote=KenTech]No, Croc, this is not how it works. Those four VM settings are what you get *added on* when you choose a strength of the ClearEdge VM feature. If you set ClearEdge to zero, it's zero.

How is it 0 if i see them four like this:

VM:0
VMH:12
VMM:8
VML:4

Does'nt look like it's at 0 to me.

So let me get this straight..if i put clear edge to "OFF" in the user menu, the 4 VM settings will be 0?

How is this when they are at 0,12,8,and 4?

Are you saying it does'nt matter if they are at those numbers or 0 that it is still off?

Or is it the first VM:0 that shuts this off?

I'm confused?
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post #159 of 2973 Old 07-05-2005, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

How is it 0 if i see them four like this:

VM:0
VMH:12
VMM:8
VML:4

Does'nt look like it's at 0 to me.

The H, M, and L letters mean that these are the settings for VM (ClearEdge) at the High, Medium, and Low settings *per picture-mode.*. If you have ClearEdge OFF (or None or whatever) in the user menu, those settings of 4, 8, and 12 aren't used.

For example, if you set VMM (M for Medium) to, say, 6 for Movie, 8 for Standard, and 10 for Vivid modes (see data chart), then when you set VM/ClearEdge to Medium, you'll get those amounts, depending on what picture mode you are in. If you set it to 0 for any mode, then even if you set ClearEdge to Medium, it will be OFF because you specified 0 for that setting.

However, if you have ClearEdge set to OFF, it doesn't matter what mode you're in, it's OFF.

Now -- an admission -- I haven't verified that the code "VM" isn't a setting for ClearEdge = OFF. That would make no sense -- that a setting of VM = 3, for instance, gives you an "OFF" setting of 3. "OFF" should be, hello!, OFF. But Sony have done weirder things than that. (I have VM = 0 for all picture modes, just in case.)

So next time I'm diddling in service mode, I think I'll check it out. Not that I'm untrusting or anything . . .

KenTech
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post #160 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Now -- an admission -- I haven't verified that the code "VM" isn't a setting for ClearEdge = OFF.

Yesterday I performed some experiments with the code 2170P-3 #17/VM to see what effect it has on ClearEdge VM on-screen. It can take values from 0 to 3 and by default is 0 for Pro mode, 1 for Movie, and 3 for Standard and Vivid. I used revealing MS test patterns to attampt to determine its effect. Bottom line: I cannot determine what it does! It's easy to see on-screen how the amount of applied VM varies with changes in VMH-VML. But altering the VM code while either a lot of VM is visible or none is visible has no effect that I can see.

It may be a threshold or limiter of some sort -- a nonlinear effect that doesn't show up in my tests. But I'm at a loss to explain it, so I leave the VM code set to 0 for all modes. (If I don't understand it, I don't want it.)

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post #161 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 12:00 PM - Thread Starter
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14 - A SERVICE-MODE BUG; THE DVE PLASTIC VIEWING FILTERS

I have reported previously that I found that the memory-stick mode had a different color-decoding matrix from the other modes. (That's what's set with 2170P-4/RYR thru GYB.) I came up with one set of values for my DVD player using the Digital Video Essentials (DVE) disk and another using a precisely similar pattern on a MS. Since MS and the ATSC (HD) tuner share the same signal path, I thought perhaps that the MS settings might be more accurate for HD reception.

I was astounded to learn that those differences between MS color and the other modes *evaporate* when you leave service mode! I recently was playing around with the color filters supplied with the DVE DVD just to see how closely they corresponded to the more-perfect approach of using one color gun at a time with 2170P-2 #1/RGBS. I was using the MS pattern and my custom Monitor matrix for it, and I observed a large green deficiency (opposite of push. Pull? Suck?) I changed to the other color matrix I had set up with DVE for Default, and the problem disappeared. What?? So I went into service mode to revisit the calibration of the MS mode and came up with new settings that weren't either the original I had developed nor the ones for Default. Huh?

I confirmed with the plastic filters that I was spot-on with the new MS adjustments, and left service mode. When looking again at the same pattern, it had changed back to something dead-on with my Default setting but green-deficient with the freshly-calibrated setting. (Note: I also interrupted the AC-power-plug connection when the set was off to make sure nothing was sneaking by a mere remote power-off-on cycle. This *can* happen: there's one instance in the AUDIO group I know of.)

All I can say is that this is buggy behavior by any measure. The bottom line seems to be this: You can't rely on color-matrix calibration with a memory-stick source, no matter how accurate the pattern is.

I have tried something else, too: I duplicated my dead-accurate calibration pattern, using a TIF master (not JPG), onto a DVD+RW as a slide. The DVD standard allows this; it's an orthodox method. Using that, I got calibrated settings for RYR-GYB *very* close to what I get with DVE:

RYR-RYB-GYR-GYB: with DVE = 14-15-7-5; with DVD slide = 13-15-5-3.

I have made one Default and the other Monitor, and it's hard to prefer one over the other, they are so similar. The second one has a tiny bit more red/orange and green push. HD, SD, and DVD all look gorgeous with either one.

I really wish my local stations broadcast at some time in the week a SMPTE or similar pattern so I could see what the color-calibration is like through the tuners.

Notes:

(1) DVE's red and green plastic color filters are not exactly the same as running the color guns one at a time, and the blue is so dark as to be nearly useless besides, it leaks red. The red and green are okay for quickie evaluations, but I trust the color-gun method completely. With the filters, I think you might get errors of 1 point (of 15) for a couple of values.

(2) All of my video sources, especially broadcast, vary a bit in their color *encoding* by favoring some colors over others. Agonizing over 1-point variations in this calibration may be a time-waster, but at least major DVDs seem to be very consistent.

(3) Image compression can change color very slightly: When converting the dead-accurate TIF image I developed in Photoshop to highest-quality JPEG, the RGB color/brightness values drifted off by a couple of points (in 256) in different directions. I don't yet know what MPEG2 compression does to color for DVD-video, and I don't yet understand what compression is used for DVD slides and what its effect is on color. To split hairs: A TIF image is perfect, but I don't know a way of displaying it perfectly without that compression step.

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post #162 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 01:52 PM
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Thanks for all the valuable info.
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post #163 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 02:20 PM
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Good posts Ken. I, too, have noticed the differences in color decoding, but perhaps my fault. It seems on my set, changing any parameter in IDSW ( checking geometry, color decoding, etc for other scan rates) does something "goofy" in respect with my CORRECT color decoder values ( produces lack of green). One minute it's dead on, next, GONE. Will look into it further.

Let me clarify further. I forced a 1080i scan rate using IDSW to check color decoding for HD. Good to go. But when I returned back to 480p, green was way off. Cycled the set, 480p is back to normal. I guess nothing to get sweaty about after all.
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post #164 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 03:39 PM
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I would like to get a copy of the KD-34XBR960 service manual. Does anyone have the part number? Is it available on a disc in PDF?

Glen Carter
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post #165 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 04:39 PM
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When last I checked...
Quote:


Sony service manuals could be ordered from Sony Direct Accessories and Parts Center via their 800 number.

Once you have a manual, there's also a 900 number that can be called for Non-Authorized Service Tech Support. It costs $3/min, with a $20 minimum for each call. According to Sony, you must have a service manual in front of you to use this service.

Although the service manuals do contain some basic instructions on geometry, convergence, menu navigation and detailed schematics of the circuit boards, the descriptions on many/most service items is slim to none, hence the need for the help line (and forums like AVS). The manual is really more of a data/reference list. An official Sony service center might be another possible source of info.


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post #166 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 04:42 PM
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Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu. If the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro) don't have the same Color and Hue settings in the User menu, then the calibration will be thrown off when you switch between these modes as well.

There also appear to be some HD color offset controls at CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, which may allow you to better align the color decoding of HD signals to match SD signals. If you're noticing an obvious and consistent difference between 480i signals and 480p/1080i signals via all inputs, and it isn't correctable via some other color or hue control, then these CXA2151 controls may allow you to fix it.

As I mentioned earlier though, there may also be a little variation between inputs too, particularly between the analog (component/CVYC/RF) versus digital inputs (DVI/HDMI/MS/Firewire), which should also be easily correctable via some of the sub-color (and if necessary sub-hue) controls in the SM.

[Edited to reflect more recent info on the CXA2151 controls.]

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post #167 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 05:23 PM
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The difference in calibration between the DVE color filters and RGBS gun controls is also something which has been known for some time. I don't know enough about the paradigm used in DVE or AVIA calibration to really comment on this intelligently though. FWIW, I went with the RGBS approach as well, just because it was more convenient (and cheaper than buying disks and filters). [Edit: Pls see info much later in the thread re MTRX and how it may effect color decoder adjustments, especially when making them in the SM with the RGBS settings.]

Re color shift with JPEG and MPEG... This is something I've noticed as well. In addition to compression-based changes, some DVD/MPEG authoring programs may also automatically clip or adjust the saturation of some colors so they're NTSC compliant. So as you say, these formats may not be the most reliable for such discrete color tweaking.

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post #168 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

In addition to compression-based changes, some DVD/MPEG authoring programs may also automatically clip or adjust the saturation of some colors so they're NTSC compliant.

This would be in accord with keeping the colors within the NTSC colorspace. But the DVE and my similar patterns are made from exact colors at 75% brightness (in hue-saturation-brightness terms), and so they're well within the colorspace and not likely to be truncated/clipped.

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post #169 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu.

Thanks for the reminder! This would especially include the 2170P-3 settings for #14 and 15, UCOF and UHOF. I think I'd better reexamine what my settings are for those on the DVD/component input. (I think they match the RF and HD tuner settings.)
Quote:


There also appear to be some 1080i color offsets controls at CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, which may allow you to better align the color decoding of 33.75khz 1080i signals with 31.5khz-480p/960 signals. If you're noticing an obvious and consistent difference between 480p/960i signals and 1080i signals via all inputs (or the IDSW setting), and it isn't correctable via some other color or hue control, then these CXA2151 controls may allow you to fix it.

This is great information, thanks! Experimentation now follows. Where did you find this out?

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post #170 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 07:02 PM
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Just an educated guess, Ken. It's one of the tweaks that came up during the whole 1080i scrolling bar business awhile ago though. And I know those CXA2151 controls will effect your RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB results either with 1080i or 480p signals. Can't remember exactly which.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

There, there. Everything is really going to turn out OK. Just rest . . . rest . . . :-)

All calm now? OK. I read the article, and it is very informative for technogeeks like us, but, Dude, I think you are way-obsessing over this gamma thing. If we were calibrating a multi-million-dollar broadcast studio so folks couldn't complain about *our* standards, I would spend more time at this. But I am watching material from the real world of commercial broadcast and DVD, and the end result I want is for it to be displayed so as to bring me the greatest pleasure in my evening-illuminated living room.

This requires that I have *some* control over things like gamma, and I am delighted that this TV allows you to set up a couple of the "picture modes" to differ only in gamma. I get to pick. Again, last night, watching a documentary on the History Channel about Wake Island, I reached desperately for the remote so I could dial in all the gamma I had -- 3.0 would have not been out of line with this ultra-flat video! But that would have made a following HD program, say Lost or CSI/Miami, look hopelessly dark. And so I grab for the remote again . . .

Without some control, there's no hope. It's what *looks right,* and I think you can really get there with this set by tweaking a bit for each program!

I can't really argue with you there. That's one of the reasons I prefer watching most stuff on DVD... because it's so easily tweakable. (If you happen to have an older Sony DVD player like mine btw, then the Memory/Brightness control may well be a gamma control rather than a black level control, which comes in very handy.)

And like I said before, I'm still not certain I understand all this gamma stuff. And after contemplating it some more, my previous certitude re what grey should appear "neutral" on a TV has begun to give way to uncertainty again. So I'm gonna backpeddle a little from some of my previous remarks in Post #130. I think the theories were basically correct there, but some doubts are beginning to creep back in again about the correct grey to use for adjusting gamma for DVDs, etc.

As you and GlenC point out, there still seems to be alot of variation out there. And some video just looks really damn dark. So I'm thinking perhaps I've not properly factored in system gamma, or that some film-based video content may be getting passed through even darker screen gamma that the standards specify. Another possibility is that people are simply ignoring the standards altogether and using whatever gamma they think will result in the kind of image they want. IAC, I'll do some more reading and experimenting and if I come up with anything more concrete I'll let you know... maybe in a new thread, so folks here don't have to listen to any more of my hemming and hawing about this.

[Edited to better reflect the more updated info on gamma in Post #343.]

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post #171 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Thanks for the reminder! This would especially include the 2170P-3 settings for #14 and 15, UCOF and UHOF. I think I'd better reexamine what my settings are for those on the DVD/component input. (I think they match the RF and HD tuner settings.)

And also 2170P-4/SCOL & SHUE (which is what I used to tweak DVI on my TV instead of using the 2170P-3 controls, to save some time).

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post #172 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 09:01 PM
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Film kind of has the fade to black thing going. Film based gamma for theater (dark) viewing is a 2.5 gamma curve. More ambient light generates a situation where the gamma is reduced, possibly 2.2 for low light. The main issue here is how fast is the transition from black to gray to white. When the gamma curve is too steep, say, < 2, black levels are tough to achieve and movies may seem washed out in low light scenes. I haven't even started to experiment with it, but my Denon DVD5900 has a 10 step gamma adjustment. I gather that if your display has a steep curve, t can be corrected for movies. I will have to experiment with this when I get time.

RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB should only be needed globally. It can be used to correct the color of red and green (if you have a color analyzer to measure the colors by their x/y coordinates). Ken, this is one area where your cloudy sky won't be any help.

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post #173 of 2973 Old 07-07-2005, 09:50 PM
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I haven’t even started to experiment with it, but my Denon DVD5900 has a 10 step gamma adjustment. I gather that if your display has a steep curve, t can be corrected for movies. I will have to experiment with this when I get time.

Variable gamma adjustments can be your friend. It probably does about the same thing as the "Memory/Brightness" control does on my Sony DVP-NS715P. Instead of changing the DVD's black level, it seems to adjust the brightness of the midtones, which is actually alot more helpful, and exactly what I would expect from a gamma control.

You might look to see if your HD receiver has a gamma control as well. If so, then you might be able to use that to tweak live broadcasts as well, saving you the trouble of diddling with gamma in the TV's service menu.

Using a source-based gamma controls may degrade the color palette a bit, which is probably more noticeable (in the form of banding) if you're trying to brighten the image rather than darken it. This will probably be more difficult to spot on a CRT than it would be on a FPD though.
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Film based gamma for theater (dark) viewing is a 2.5 gamma curve.

Maybe we're referring to different things here, but I think motion-picture film and slides have more in the neighborhood of a 1.5 viewing gamma. This link probably gives a better explanation of what I mean by this.

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post #174 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Although the RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB are global in that they can only store a single value for all modes, the calibration of these controls can be effected by other input & signal sensitive controls for hue and color in the service menu. If the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro) don't have the same Color and Hue settings in the User menu, then the calibration will be thrown off when you switch between these modes as well.

There also appear to be some 1080i color offset controls at CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, which may allow you to better align the color decoding of 33.75khz-1080i signals to match 31.5khz-480p/960i signals. If you're noticing an obvious and consistent difference between 480p/960i signals and 1080i signals via all inputs (or the IDSW setting), and it isn't correctable via some other color or hue control, then these CXA2151 controls may allow you to fix it.

As I mentioned earlier though, there may also be a little variation between inputs too, particularly between the analog (component/CVYC/RF) versus digital inputs (DVI/HDMI/MS/Firewire), which should also be easily correctable via some of the sub-color (and if necessary sub-hue) controls in the SM.

Thanks ADU, will look into that tonight when I get home. Funny thing is, with the same input, forcing the various scan rates (full, 960i, 1080i) color decoder "looks" dead on for all rates, it's just when I return to 480p it's off again. Like I said earlier, cycling the set returns the decoder to normal for 480p. Go figure.

Keep this thing going guys, I certainly enjoy learning.
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post #175 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 10:48 AM
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I guess I'm still not quite clear what you mean by "cycling the set".

One thing I'll add though is that 2170P-3 UCOF (and UHOF) do appear to store different values for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i for each input. IOW, the 2170P-3 commands are both input and signal sensitive. So some signal-dependent tweaking of the color decoders can probably be done there too (if you have the patience for that).

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post #176 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I guess I'm still not quite clear what you mean by "cycling the set".

One thing I'll add though is that 2170P-3 UCOF (and UHOF) do appear to store different values for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i for each input. IOW, the 2170P-3 commands are both input and signal sensitive. So some signal-dependent tweaking of the color decoders can probably be done there too (if you have the patience for that).

"Cycling" generally means re-cycling power. In other words, turn the set off and then on. Usually the term used is "cycling power."

Cheers!
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post #177 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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And also 2170P-4/SCOL & SHUE (which is what I used to tweak DVI on my TV instead of using the 2170P-3 controls, to save some time).

Indeed there are several places where Color, Hue, and other menu-slider offsets can be tweaked. It's important to be aware of them all:

(1) 2170P-4 #4-6/SPIO-SHUO appear to be global offsets for Picture, Color, and Hue, with values of 0-15. The service manual specifies defaults of 4-9-7, but my set came with 7-7-7 (the midpoints). If my Hue or Color sliders were off on all inputs, meaning for me that 31 is not the calibrated setting for *any* input, I would start here. I have left them alone. They show only one column in the service-data chart.

(2) 2170P-4 #1-3, SPIC-SHUE appear to be the same as (1) but are specific to 5 broad categories: DRC-processed signals, component inputs (V5/6), HDMI input, MS/ATSC (memory stick and digital tuner), or something called "passthrough." So these codes have 5 columns each in the data chart. They are pretty wide categories.

(3) 2170P-3 #13-15, UBOF-UHOF, for Brightness (black level), Color, and Hue. These are specific to each combination of video input *and* input-scan rate, 17 columns in the chart. Here is where you can balance these three parameters among your signal sources. I balance Brightness here, but I keep the Color and Hue values identical for DVD, MS, and all broadcast sources -- so a calibration from a DVD or MS source is valid for broadcast inputs. My VCRs are then tweaked to make them look like the calibrated sources.

None of these are directly part of color-matrix (decoding) calibration. The two parameters that affect its accuracy, however, must be set properly first: Color (amount) and Hue (tint, color phase). Brightness and Picture have no direct effect on color-decoding calibration.

It should be obvious that there are more than one way to "tune" the Color, Hue, Brightness, and even Picture parameters among the large number of unput/video combinations. A good strategy would be to accomplish calibration for the broadest categories of offsets first (#1, above), then do the finicky input-dependent diddling last (#3).

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post #178 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB should only be needed globally. It can be used to correct the color of red and green (if you have a color analyzer to measure the colors by their x/y coordinates). Ken, this is one area where your cloudy sky won't be any help.

Well, no, of course not. The color-drive and cutoff setup should be performed with a completely black-and-white signal, and turning down the Color slider to "Min" accomplishes this. The "cloudy sky" standard is valuable only in setting color temperature of white.

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post #179 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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And like I said before, I'm still not certain I understand all this gamma stuff. And after contemplating it some more, my previous certitude re what grey should appear neutral on a TV has begun to give way to uncertainty again.

Without minimizing at all the intellectual and engineering aspects of this gamma thing that give *some* of us an inordinate amount of pleasure, I really believe that pleasing the eye is paramount: If I have set black level and Picture (max white) correctly, and it *still* looks dark, I want a lower gamma. How it looks is all that matters.

Having said that, I do want to know what the gamma is for my display so I can occasionally make judgements about the video source. But for entertainment material, I want that gamma control -- and all we can do with these sets is custom-configure a couple of the Picture modes for that purpose. I use Pro and Movie for gammas of approx 2.45 (GAMR,G,B = 0) and 2.2 (GAMR,G,B = 3), and one of those generaly works fine. Splitting hairs further seems unproductive. Even though I originally set up Standard with gamma = 2.0, I never use it.

I would substitute in your quote above the word "flexibility" for "uncertainty." Your words "should appear neutral" likely have no practical meaning in a world of nonstandard entertainment video -- although DVD releases of redent films seem, indeed, to be remarkably well-calibrated and consistent. A real pleasure!

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post #180 of 2973 Old 07-08-2005, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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15 - THE COLOR OF BLACK: OTHER POSSIBLE COLOR ADJUSTMENTS

Aside from all of the color-decoding (RYR-GYB), display (cutoff and drive), and Hue- and Color-offset controls that need calibration, there are a couple of less-obvious adjustments that can be quite a bit off as factory-supplied.

The most important of these more-obscure adjustments are 2170P-1 #2-4/YOF, CBOF, and CROF. There are different settings saved for 13 video classes: anything that uses DRC, plus component, HDMI, and MS/ATSC inputs for each of four scan rates (480i and -p, 720p, 1080i).

As an orientation, consider the probable color-processing/display chain. (1) Digital MS and ATSC (digital tuner) signals have their colors decoded according to the digital standards. The color from analog sources enters the chain at this point, when chosen. (2) Color is then subjected to the RYR-GYB color matrix, where red and green are pushed (or not) by robbing from other colors. Think zero-sum game, here. Tint/Hue is adjustable here, too. (3) Then comes the Color control slider, like a volume control for color. (4) Following this is the derivation of the drive voltages for the three guns in the CRT: RGB cutoff and RGB drive in 2170P-1. (5) The result is displayed by the CRT. You can see why the CRT-voltage setup is fundamental and must be set up first.

So what are these other red and blue adjustments? It appears as if CBOF and CROF are blue and red offsets added to the color output for the several color decoders in part (1) of the signal chain, as proposed above. You can see a misadjustment, for example, when tuning from one HD channel to another: Before the picture locks in, there is a background glow if you crank Brightness up a bit, and - holy moly! - it might have *color* if you crank Color up to max. Oops! Obviously not a consequence of bad setup for the CRT in part (4); otherwise the Color control wouldn't affect it.

My set's black glow was quite yellowish for HD and reddish-pink for the DVE-DVD showing video black. I separately adjusted CBOF and CROF for blue and red, respectively, for 1080i ATSC, 720p ATSC, 480i ATSC, and DVD/component sources. Values were adjusted by amounts of 2-15, turns out, and the black-color vanished. I never chose to adjust YOF (luminance offset). You have to WRITE the settings after each change; otherwise the instant you change channels, the settings are lost.

**************
ADU mentioned some potential color adjustments in group CXA2171 #3-5/CBGN, CRGN, YGN. I experimented with these, and they appear to be gain controls, plain and simple, for blue and red (relative to green), and overall luminance. It doesn't seem that the adjustments are as sophisticated as the color-matrix controls of RYR-GYB, and, as ADU suggests, they seem not to apply to analog material. (I haven't tested SD-digital or MS yet.) I note that the skin tones of my digital channels match very well their analog equivalents when simulcast. Absent an HD color-pattern generator or a high-quality broadcast pattern, I can't see how else to adjust this.

The service manual's block diagram identifies the CXA2171 as the YUV Switch. It takes inputs from HDMI, ATSC, and component video, selects one, and sends it on to the rest of the color-processing chain. These adjustments may be tweaks for a specific chip and would be have to be readjusted if it were repaired. Since I don't see a problem that needs correction, I'm leaving my settings in this group alone for now.

I think we're running out of color adjustments (whew!). Anyone know of others (not connected with TwinView windows or closed-captioning)?

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