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post #1801 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

and for having a simple to remember "reference" for the brightness slider for easily knowing what brightness slider value=properly calibarted black level on any input/scan rate.

How is everyone calibrating for inputs other than that which is compatible with DVD sources? or are non-DVD sources just "eyeballed"?

Like for RF (standard cable). How does one calibrate that? or VHS sources over composite?

Now, I just match RF to my 480i (component), which is calibrated using DVE test patterns; and hope that i'm close...

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post #1802 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by jjmilo View Post

Start with the Tv on. Then In Quick succession Press power off, Display, 5, volume +, power on. The Service Menu data should then appear on your screen in monochrome green.

Thanks,

I will give it a shot tonight.

I have always started with the TV off.
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post #1803 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by corlay View Post

How is everyone calibrating for inputs other than that which is compatible with DVD sources?


I did hook up DVD player temporarily to S-Video input to calibrate CV/YC (s-video+composite input share same SM settings), and also tried the DVD player hooked up to composite input to see if it was "the same"(it was pretty much) that seems to have worked well for my SVHS deck and Dish Network Sat receiver via S-video inputs, although there is of course no way to absolutely "verify" the latter .....

I don't use cable(use OTA HD/ATSC internal tuner+DVD primarily for TV programming, Sat/Dish SD network receiver to supplement that a bit), but I've found the internal test patterns labeld "ATSC"(there's a series of patterns for 1080i/720p/480p and 480i) in "QM" section to be benifical for the internal ATSC tuner, as well as patterns from MS. I'd think those should work well, and should apply to QAM/Cablecard as well. For instance, Black level for 1080i/720p ATSC broadcast sources(and thus the same UBOF as for 1080i/MS) seems to fairly well match the calibration I did from a Pluge pattern played from jpg file from memory stick.

Update: Note(this pertains *only* to 480p/720p+1080i and working with/looking at "color" when working In SM ) ..... *Do* note that when you are working in SM, (well, this is the case on my set(KD34XBR960 manufactured Jan 05 at least), when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode. Therefore, when looking at "color" from within the SM, you need to, for example set(or verify) 2171CXA/MTRX=0 for 480p NTSC sources(such as from DVD), and 2171CXA/MTRX=1 for 720p/1080i ATSC sources for proper color decoding to occur, otherwise what you'll see color decoding wise while working in SM will be *inaccurate* for 480p/720p/1080i sources. Note that Only 480p/720p+1080i signals are effected, and that MTRX is a temporary setting which is not saved.
:end update


I have caught color bars up here or there from broadcast NTSC(analog) stations, and although they are really not to be "trusted", I've checked and made some assuptions concerning RF input+various color related settings.

Quote:


Now, I just match RF to my 480i (component), which is calibrated using DVE test patterns; and hope that i'm close...

Be very careful there, especially when "balancing" white levels with 2170P4 SPIC or black levels with UBOF. In any case, FWIW, It certianly doesn't match 480i via component from My DVD player, but on my set, the needed black level settings for RF input(which is composite NTSC video) and CV/YC do seem to match, or seem very close to matching .....

And you may also want to be sure you are aware of the 2103-1 settings specific to only CV/YC and "RF" inputs (2103-1 SCON/SHUE/SCOL/etc) ....

Much will depend upon the output of your DVD player I'd think, and I'd think merely assuming it matches the RF input, or "is close" is probably assuming too much .... HOWEVER, I'd think it Should be noticable by "eyeballing it" to some degree ... for instance, if black levels are noticably generally "too dark" or "too bright" from your RF/Cable sources, although keep in mind black levels from such sources can vary all over the place ...

In addition to service code chart listing for your set(which can be found attached to a post "somewhere" in this thread) BTW, You may find the charts attached to Ken's Post #892 useful in your efforts ... They are easier to look at and "interpet" than the "full chart", that's for certian!

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post #1804 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

the internal test patterns

do these exist on a 30HS420?

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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

*Do* note that when you are working in SM, when 480p, 720p or 1080i signals are input, the proper "color matrix" for ATSC/NTSC(or 480p vs 720p/1080i/etc) sources is not selected "automatically" as occurs if you are operating the set normally outside of service mode.

Can someone verify that this also applies to 30HS420?
How to know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

I have caught color bars up here or there from broadcast NTSC(analog) stations, and although they are really not to be "trusted", I've checked and made some assuptions concerning RF input+various color related settings.

One of my local channels puts up those standrad NTSC color bars after ~1:00am. Maybe I'll play around with color calibration for RF that way. I looked at it once, and color-gated for blue, red, green separately and it wasn't even close... :-(

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post #1805 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

do these exist on a 30HS420?

Look for a ("blue color) "QM" section in Service menu, it's undocumented in SM, and near the "end" of the different SM "sections" on my set.

The patterns on my set are in QM #1 - PATN #1~80, there are also several patterns in QM #2 (GATN?) #1~7(or so), the latter which use whatever mode of the current signal source. QM #0-INFO #0-7 has some diagnostic info screens which may be of interest to some. in PATN, There are 20 identical patterns for each scan rate (in this order - ATSC 1080i-480i-480p-720p). They aren't very sophisticated, but there are good color bars. Also note --- As discussed earlier on a few occasions, If you WRITE another setting elsewhere in SM when you have one of those patterns up, (this is an oddity I know), you will probably need to make sure your return QM/PATN value to ZERO(and WRITE the "0" value(no test pattern) before you exit SM, otherwise the test pattern you were working on will likely remain "stuck" on screen when you exit SM.

Quote:


How to know?

Check Color bars/color test pattern outside of SM, then go into SM, and compare - While I wouldn't use the DVE plastic filters and would use RGBS instead for actual calibration work, since you can't use RGBS outside of SM, the DVE plastic filters should be good enough for this comparision(actually, you should probably be able to see the difference in say, Cyan with just your eyes when switching between MTRX=0 and MTRX=1 within SM) :

If it's relevant to your set, For example, if You are in SM and you're looking at 480p from DVD and NTSC color bars and MTRX=0 and the color decoding is the SAME as it was outside of SM(where again the proper color matrix or "color space" is chosen automatically by the set), the color bars would be exactly the same. However, when working in SM and if it's relevant and if MTRX=1, then it Won't be the same ..... Generally, if you were using a 720p/1080i source immediately BEFORE you entered SM, MTRX will probably show "1", and if you were using 480p/NTSC source before you entered SM it will probably show "0". But, it doesn't *allways* happen this way(at least on my set), and can be either, which is one reason why it's sometimes necessary for me to change the MTRX setting when I was working in SM with color settings for 480p NTSC from DVD vs. 720p/1080i from internal tuner, QM test patterns or 1080i from Memory stick ...

Searching this thread for such items as "MTRX" should produce more detailed info ......

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post #1806 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decharo View Post

Thanks,

I will give it a shot tonight.

I have always started with the TV off.

There is no problem starting with the TV off. It just has to be off when you push the Display-5-Vol+ combo. When I want to make some planned adjustments, I start with the TV off.

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post #1807 of 2962 Old 07-12-2006, 07:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

in PATN, There are 20 identical patterns for each scan rate (in this order - ATSC 1080i/720p/480p/480i).

On my 36XS955, they are in the order: 1080i - 480i - 480p - 720p.

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post #1808 of 2962 Old 07-13-2006, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

do these exist on a 30HS420?

I believe the internal test patterns are hosted on the QM board, which is part of the ATSC/QAM tuner module. My HS510 does not have this tuner or test patterns and I don't believe the HS420 has them either.

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post #1809 of 2962 Old 07-13-2006, 08:32 AM
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I'm in!

Now I need to sort though this post to find out what I need to do to my 960. I find myself getting kind of dizzy when I watch this TV. I don't know if it is a focus issue or convergence or something else I am clueless about. I believe I need test patterns, I am goig to purchase DVE. I have read somewhere in this thread that within the SM there is test patterns, I can't find it again. Anybody?

I am having a hard time searching this post, I don't know if it is because of the size of it or my layman search terms.
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post #1810 of 2962 Old 07-13-2006, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

On my 36XS955, they are in the order: 1080i - 480i - 480p - 720p.

Yes, Oops! Sorry about that. That was a mistake, probably didn't help that I was doing about 5 other things while composing that post - I'll edit/fix that, it's the same here, Ken on XBR960.

Update: Which reminds me -- Never thought to mention it, and not sure if it's been mentioned earlier or not, but of course the SM info at top of screen(including info on signal source- 1080i/480i/etc.) isn't displayed when you are "in" QM menu, but appears if you put a QM pattern up and move elsewhere in SM. :end update
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, Wasn't clear which set models have ATSC/QAM receiver built in, and which don't ... What Raoulii said certianly makes sense ....

And, if it's the case Corlay may not have a 720p/1080i HD source he's working with, I'm thinking he's probably not going to have an issue with "MTRX" either(assuming the HS420 also uses 21x1CXA/"YUV switch" processor), as, hard to say, but I'd guess it might be likely it would end up being MTRX="0" at all times when SM is entered if 480p sources are being used and 720p/1080i isn't.

So, in other words - Sorry corlay! The info on QM, and MTRX was probably more than you needed or wanted to know ...

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post #1811 of 2962 Old 07-13-2006, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

So, in other words - Sorry corlay! The info on QM, and MTRX was probably more than you needed or wanted to know ...

well...

it would have been nice to have a means for proper calibration of all inputs, individually.

thanks anyway....

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post #1812 of 2962 Old 07-15-2006, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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OPINIONS SOLICITED. Attention color-tweaking fanatics: What, in your opinion, does 2170P-1/DCOL appear to do? (It follows the color-offset parameters for Warm and Cool, RDOF~BCOF.)

An earlier service manual identifies it as "dynamic color - Cool." So I ran a few experiments. My "Normal" color temp setting is currently very linear: a b/w image is amazingly neutral, bright to shadow. So I set the Cool offsets to 31-31-31--31-31-31 (no effect) and set the CT to Cool. As I varied DCOL from 0 thru 3 on a b/w picture (Color=Min), the picture got uniformly cooler, perfectly balanced from bright to shadow. 1 is only a very mild change, 2 and 3 more noticeable. So, one might suppose that a good conservative "Cool" setup would be to set DCOL to 1-3, and leave the offsets at 31. So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.

(I confirmed: It does seem to affect only the Cool CT setting. Warm and Normal are not affected.)

So the burning question is: What is dynamic about this DCOL setting? Are only bright tones affected when skin tones are present? Does it cleverly apply a coolish tone to only some parts of the image when colors are present? In b/w images, it seems to me to cool things off very even-handedly, from shadows to white. So . . . Dynamic? How?

Other sets of eyes would be appreciated on this.

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post #1813 of 2962 Old 07-15-2006, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech
My "Normal" color temp setting is currently very linear: a b/w image is amazingly neutral, bright to shadow. So I set the Cool offsets to 31-31-31--31-31-31 (no effect) and set the CT to Cool. As I varied DCOL from 0 thru 3 on a b/w picture (Color=Min), the picture got uniformly cooler, perfectly balanced from bright to shadow.
Tried this also. Saw the same thing as you. Including but not limited to - using jpeg greyscale image included in attached zip file "16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip" --

BTW, wow! Never would have thought a 1920x1080 greyscale jpeg image would compress into a zip file only 1.4KB in size!

However ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech
So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.
Experiment #1:

I tried something a little different ... Cool Offset/RDOF~BCOF= 32-31-30-32-31-30, DCOL=1 -- Well, This doesn't "match" my neutral RDRV~BCUT settings, but, the differences are pretty slight. In my case, at first I thought it might be just a wee, tad bit warmer than "neutral"(It's labeled "neutral" not Normal on XBR960 go figure) throughout brightness range ...

But, looking at it a little more(just greyscale with color off, various patterns such as the 16step jpg image via MS attached to this post) --- Perhaps with these settings It Adds a slight bit of +Red "pinkishness(or "magnetaishness)", at least in midnotes+lower brightness levels vs. my netural setting ..

It's really hard to say, and very difficult to trust my eyes on this one, but I'd swear it almost seems like with the above settings for cool offset in this case CT *may* be cooler CT in brighter areas, while at the same time it seems with these settings for "cool" I am definitely getting a very, wee tad bit of +red "pinkishness"(or magnetaishness") in mid-tones and low brightness levels -- that does not seem(doesn't mean it isn't though, as what is going on here is very slight, and would be difficult to say it's Not there in brighter areas as well) to be there in brighter areas .....

So -- Ok, I thought -- Well, who knows what is causing that, so thought I might try :

Experiment #2:

Cool Offset : RDOF~BCOF=31-31-31-31-31-31 / DCOL=1.

Warm Offset : RDOF~BCOF 30-31-32-30-31-32 (WBSW=0 - Note - As you detirmined Looks like DCOL only effects the cool off set, and also without looking at it too closely it looks like the BIG WBSW=1 "warm" switch only effects warm offset)

Knowing that I'd confirmed identical results on previous occasions via setting the Warm/cool offsets to the exact same values for RDOF~BCOF, I might then expect to acheive the same, or very similar results with A/B comparisions between these settings for cool/warm offset, no?

Well, at first that seemed to be the case --- looking at only Greyscale patterns with color "off" --- If there were any differences between a/b comparisions of these cool/Warm offsets, my eye couldn't detect a difference(although I can't definitively say there wasn't one -- If there *was* a difference, I can say it was *very*, very slight) .....

So - turned Color slider to my normal settings "as calibrated"(color slider=31), and, being lazy as only needed two button presses to get there, went to the EPG via my Dish network receiver to look at the "shade of red" that shows for the channels I'm not subscribed to(if it's not the "right" shade of red, it annoys me for some reason, LOL) .... Since a pic is worth 1,000 words, I've attached a screenshot of what that looks like to this message, filename "dishepg.jpg".

Well ... You know what? The shade of red for the "unsubscribed" channels and "cool vs. Warm" offsets as described above DID not match, nor were they as close as would be the case with slight differences in Offsets .... I even tried different settings for DCOL, and although the CT became "cooler" with DCOL=2 or 3, the shade of Red never did reach the same "coolness of red"(so to speak) that was there with the "warm" offset ("cooler" than netural) ...

Quote:
What, in your opinion, does 2170P-1/DCOL appear to do? So the burning question is: What is dynamic about this DCOL setting? Are only bright tones affected when skin tones are present? Does it cleverly apply a coolish tone to only some parts of the image when colors are present? In b/w images, it seems to me to cool things off very even-handedly, from shadows to white. So . . . Dynamic? How?
I don't know Ken -- Appears to me there may be(emphacize may) *something* interesting going on with it, but #1). I haven't seen enough yet to be able to form an opinion concerning what is going on, and #2). from what I've seen so far - at this point at least -- whatever it is, I don't think I like it(who knows though I could end up being wrong about that, LOL) ...

 

16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip 1.3681640625k . file
LL

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post #1814 of 2962 Old 07-16-2006, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

I tried something a little different ... Cool Offset/RDOF~BCOF= 32-31-30-32-31-30, DCOL=1 -- Well, This doesn't "match" my neutral RDRV~BCUT settings, but, the differences are pretty slight. In my case, at first I thought it might be just a wee, tad bit warmer than "neutral"(It's labeled "neutral" not Normal on XBR960 go figure) throughout brightness range ...

But, looking at it a little more(just greyscale with color off, various patterns such as the 16step jpg image via MS attached to this post) --- Perhaps with these settings It Adds a slight bit of +Red "pinkishness(or "magnetaishness)", at least in midnotes+lower brightness levels vs. my netural setting ..

I assume you intended that this "Cool" offset-setup be warm, not cool. 32-31-30--32-31-30 is a warm, not cool, bias. So it should be a tad warmer, indeed.

But it brings up a potential experiment: Set CT to Cool, then add, say, +2 of DCOL, and try to cancel it with warmish "Cool" offsets. When you can't see a difference when switching from Neutral, you can note the offset-settings that canceled it. Then install their opposite coolish equivalents temporarily for the Warm offsets for testing. The question then becomes: Are the Warm and Cool settings, thus configured, identical? Or is ther something else going on with the DCOL=2-only Cool setting.

I have tried to second-guess the Sony intent: What was the person/committee thinking when they "invented" DCOL? "Let's cool thing off a little more for bright scenes than for dark scenes." "Let's try to avoid cooling off flesh tones." That would be the dynamic aspect of it -- they're trying to do something to the overall color that is somehow intelligently scene-dependent. After all, Sony have already made available all kinds of "dynamic picture" features as far as black level and contrast are concerned -- and that we rigorously turn off. It's a long-standing and, IMHO, paternalistic tradition in TV manufacturing to do something "automatic" to the picture to make it "better," starting with skin-tone correction in the 60s and 70s. Only in recent decades does it seem that most TVs offer a way of completely cancelling such effects.

I won't belabor the point -- but one tremendous value of the easy access to Sony's service mode that the set can be turned into a marvelous, UN-automatic display device with a few, simple changes.

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post #1815 of 2962 Old 07-16-2006, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Including but not limited to - using jpeg greyscale image included in attached zip file "16stepgreyscale1920x1080jpg.zip" --

BTW, wow! Never would have thought a 1920x1080 greyscale jpeg image would compress into a zip file only 1.4KB in size!

Thanks for posting this valuable pattern. It can, of course, be rescaled and copy/pasted in several places in a new pattern so that variations in color over the screen doesn't fool your eyes.

On compression: Common compression schemes, e.g. zip, jpeg, png, sit, all rely on the elimination of redundancy in the data for making file-sizes smaller. A whole line of 10% gray can be encoded as [1 gray pixel, repeat 1920 times], instead of 10% gray - 10% gray - 10% gray, etc, for 1920 individual pixels. A test pattern likely has lots of perfectly even tonalities over significant areas, and that makes it easy for very significant compression. Add more detail, however, and especially randomness, and the file size goes way up. My fine-focus test images, with their widely distributed tiny patterns, don't compress well at all!

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post #1816 of 2962 Old 07-16-2006, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

The shade of red for the "unsubscribed" channels and "cool vs. Warm" offsets as described above DID not match, nor were they as close as would be the case with slight differences in Offsets .... I even tried different settings for DCOL, and although the CT became "cooler" with DCOL=2 or 3, the shade of Red never did reach the same "coolness of red"(so to speak) that was there with the "warm" offset ("cooler" than netural).

Interesting. Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.

But this would be awful, no? It would mean that a step-saturation scale of, say, reds, varying from 100% red at one end thru pinks to equivalent-brightness gray at the the other would also vary in hue! The less-saturated reds would drift a bit toward magenta as you moved away from pure red. That's a nonlinearity in color that seems unacceptable -- or does it fool the eye in some clever way? Hard to imagine . . .

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post #1817 of 2962 Old 07-16-2006, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

32-31-30--32-31-30 is a warm, not cool, bias. So it should be a tad warmer, indeed.

Yes, with DCOL=0, and apparently(more or less it seemed, with perhaps an exception in the brighter tones - again don't trust my eyes enough for this) DCOL=1 as well.

Quote:


I assume you intended that this "Cool" offset-setup be warm, not cool.

What I was trying to see, is if DCOL=1 would more or less "offset" 32-31-30-32-31-30 .... or in other words, "equal" a "non-offset"(so to speak) of 31-31-31-31-31-31 and DCOL=0 since you had said/discovered in previous post(and looking at greyscale only, portions of my experiment #2 seemed to indicate the same thing) :

Quote:


So I set it to 1 and watched TV last evening. Seems equivalent to a usual conservative Cool offset of, say, 30-31-32 -- 30-31-32 and DCOL=0, at least at first try. Nothing weird; very discreet.

So, that's -1 offset from RDRV/RCUT, +1 from BDRV/BCUT, which might lead one to assume one effect of DCOL=1 might be to produce the same results as RDRV-1, BCUT +1, and all I was doing, in a sense was to "check" to see if such an assumption was true ... It wasn't ...

In other words, If an offset of 30-31-32-30-31-32 seems equivilent to DCOL=1 using 31-31-31-31-31-31, then I thought I'd check to see if an offset of +1 from RDRV/RCUT, -1 BDRV/BCUT(32-31-30-32-31-30) with DCOL=1 would be equivilent to 31-31-31-31-31-31/DCOL=0, which it wasn't.

Quote:


But it brings up a potential experiment: Set CT to Cool, then add, say, +2 of DCOL, and try to cancel it with warmish "Cool" offsets. When you can't see a difference when switching from Neutral, you can note the offset-settings that canceled it. Then install their opposite coolish equivalents temporarily for the Warm offsets for testing. The question then becomes: Are the Warm and Cool settings, thus configured, identical? Or is ther something else going on with the DCOL=2-only Cool setting.

Yes, I thought of trying that as well last night, just as I was hitting the hay, so to speak ...

Quote:


One tremendous value of the easy access to Sony's service mode that the set can be turned into a marvelous, UN-automatic display device with a few, simple changes.

Thank goodness! Additionally useful as well for those of us who have customized our pic modes ...

Quote:


Interesting. Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.

That did very much look like what was happening, but again, I only looked at it with the Dish EPG screen, and didn't spend much time on it ... As I increased DCOL, the cooler CT that resulted was obvious in the whites/grays present, seemingly without the colors being as effected .....

Quote:


But this would be awful, no?

Yes, it would ... Don't know what's really going on with it at this point, though suppose it might take a little more work and experiments to come up with some sort of theory.

I suppose one might also want to consider the factory defaults for cool offset - RDOF~BCOF 31-31-34-31-31-34 and DCOL=1 --- perhaps also along with the Netural factory defaults for RDRV~BCUT ... Which, on my set at least(and apparently others whom have reported here) result in a quite cool CT for Neutral and cool offset ....

It seems to me the "warm offset"(my sets values match service code listing for the offsets, but not RDRV~BCUT) was probably setup such that factory adjustment of RDRV~BCUT would result in something "close" to 6500K CT (although unfortunetly it did not produce linear greyscale results on my particular set). And perhaps, one might assume, perhaps the RDRV~BCUT factory adjustment for "neutral" was also "supposed" to be for some particular CT, as well as some sort of "look" to result, and correspondingly, some sort of particular "look" for the "cool offset" ....

In which case, Just a thought(one which I doubt anyone will want to explore to much of an extent other than perhaps for short periods of experimentation!) perhaps one who is interested in sorting out what they may have been "going for" with the cool offset and use of DCOL=1 may have a better shot at it if they experiment with returning 1). RDRV~BCUT to the factory adjusted values, and the cool offset values to their defaults as well .... Then, perhaps one might also want to consider the Factory settings for the color decoder as well (RYR~GYB) .... Assuming(and this would probably be assuming a lot) of course the techs at the factory doing the adjustments on the set achieved the results Sony wanted ....

To be honest Ken, I only took a look at this a little as you asked for others thoughts and I had some extra time last night. At this point, from what I've seen so far can't think of why I might want to use anything for DCOL other than 0(and, my current cool offset of 29-31-32-29-31-32 seems to be working quite nicely for a cooler CT choice), so I'm afraid at this point I'm not very motivated to experiment further ... As allways, I Would be happy to double-check anything you discover on this, however ....

Jeff
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post #1818 of 2962 Old 07-16-2006, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Well, maybe the "dynamic" DCOL algorithm is this: Apply a cool offset in inverse proportion to the amount of color (saturation). Thus, colors would be less affected than, say, pale or white objects, grays, etc.

Yes, something like this seems to be happening, indeed. Inspired by Jeff's comments on the changes he saw in the red tones of a graphic, I set up my own similar experiment.

I think I now see what DCOL does. (Remember the infamous skin-tone correction on old TVs?) I set up Cool with all offsets at 31, but with DCOL at 2, a noticable cooling effect. I found I could almost exactly duplicate the effect for b/w images by setting Warm (temporarily) to 29-31-33--29-31-33. So, if I switched between Warm and Cool with a remote-click, and then back, I saw only the tiniest change in color -- less than one click of any of the color parameters.

So I turned Color back up to normal, and watched some regular TV, paying attention to what Warm/Cool switching did to red, green, and blue tones in the video. (Remember Cool = DCOL at 2.) Results:

(1) Switching from Warm to Cool intensified red slightly. People's faces, moreover, became slightly more colored (saturation increase -- one would expect the opposite). Switching from Neutral to Cool had essentially no effect on red and face tones. Switching Neutral to Warm desaturated them slightly. (Remember I've changed Warm temporarily to an orthodox cool setup.)

(2) Switching from Warm to Cool desaturated intense blue slightly. One would expect it to increase! So DCOL cools off all grays, but it emphasizes skin and similar tones at the expense of their opposites.

(3) I found few good examples to test, but greens were least affected, very slightly desaturated when switching to Cool, again paradoxical.

So I think I get it, now. DCOL has two simultaneous effects that somebody on the Sony design team thought were beneficial together: A nice, even cooling of color temp is added to low-saturated tones, especially grays and white; and a skin-tone correction is added, making the effect of this cooling on normal warm colors nearly zero. Looks to me like "cooler, with added old-style skin-tone bias."

I'm having none of it! End of experiment. "Skin-tone correction" is the enemy of accurate color, having helped sell color television in an era when NTSC stood for "Never Twice the Same Color" and white points were set very cool. Like the optional "automatic" black-level correction available thru the BLK parameter and its dependent parameters -- part of Sony's "Dynamic Picture" feature," it is never required for high-quality viewing. (It bloody well doesn't occur in Nature, now does it!) Leave DCOL at 0.

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post #1819 of 2962 Old 07-17-2006, 08:02 PM
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Has anyone figured out if there is a way to decrease the amount of screen real estate taken up by the "side bars" when viewing 4x3 programming in "normal" screen mode on 16x9 DA-4 chassis sets(such as XBR960)?

I've been searching, but can't seem to find anything which will do what I want. I don't want to alter Horizontal size of the image in the 4x3 "area" which is displayed, I want to "get rid" of a portion of the "inside portion" of the side bars, which is in effect, "hiding" more than I want on the sides .... In other words, to effectively "unhide" a portion of the image which is being hidden by the "side bars".

Attached is an image of some screenshots which should, hopefully demonstrate why I'd like to find a way to do this. AT top of each image is a pattern displayed in the set's "full mode" (image fills the screen) at bottom is the pattern displayed while using the "normal" screen mode. Note: Well, yes the pattern in pics at bottom/left is different -- one is 4x3 NTSC video, the other is 16x9 NTSC video but should be the same as far as what is "hidden" on the sides.

As you can see, the "side bars" (Yeah, they might look weird to some as I have them set to be grey via MID1/BCOL=6 rather than the factory default of black and MID1/BCOL=0 - They're not as bright grey in the right pic due to the auto-exposure settings on the digital camera) when using "normal" screen mode are effectively causing a "synthetic" extra amount of overscan, whearas I'd like the "synthetic" overscan to "match" the ~4.5% overscan that is the case with "full" mode and a 16x9 image. And yes, I know I don't have the image centered "perfectly", vertically, I won't go into the reasons why I'm doing that at the current time other than to say, that basically I'm still trying to decide something.

Thanks for any input on this!
LL

Jeff
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post #1820 of 2962 Old 07-17-2006, 08:51 PM
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Jeff, have you tried LBLK/RBLK in 2170D-3? Sounds like a blanking issue if it is adjustable. There appears to be a "1080" and "Other" setting. Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan.

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post #1821 of 2962 Old 07-18-2006, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Jeff, have you tried LBLK/RBLK in 2170D-3? Sounds like a blanking issue if it is adjustable. There appears to be a "1080" and "Other" setting. Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan.

Glen,

Yes -- LBLK/RBLK are the shutters(to keep the beam from striking edge of tube) which only effect the outer edge of the raster, including when "normal" screen mode is used. The 1080i setting is relevant on my set for 1080i "full" mode(maybe V Expand or H expand too or HD zoom, don't recall), "others" is relevant to "everything else", including "normal" screen mode, but again, only at the edge of the raster("behind" the bezel" so to speak unless you've reduced HSIZ to see the effect).

Only went through this quickly(and didn't write down which one it was) but There does appear to be a MID2 setting which allows adjustment of Horizontal size(and therefore 4x3 "overscan" so to speak for DRC processed signals - assume there is one that would work for 480p 4x3 as well in MID1) of only the "4x3" area without effecting the sidebars, however that would require reduced overscan on top and bottom, probably via adjustment of a MID2 Vertical size adjustment as well to maintain proper aspect ratio. And, I believe an adjustment of for example, MID2 DVRS would probably undesireably decrease vertical resolution l per info described in Post 1731 .

OTOH, other Vertical/Horizontal size controls I've come across effect the entire 16x9 "area", including the side bars when the 4x3 "normal" screen mode is used. In other words, it doesn't change what is "hidden" of the 4x3 frame behind those "side bars".

I guess what is annoying about this is occasionally bits of graphics/bugs get "cut off" from 4x3 SD/broadcast sources, and it's not an issue I've experienced with my other sets(such as Toshiba 34HF84/RCA F38310). Of course, the only "signals" of interest here are 480i or NTSC signals processed via DRC, or 480p 4x3 signals, and 1/2 of a percent extra overscan isn't really that big of a deal, I suppose ...

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Many TVs have fixed 4:3 overscan

I suppose what is nice about it is the width/size of the "side bars" NEVER change when a 480i or 480p 4x3 signal is viewed via the Normal screen mode, no matter the input or source used. Therefore, if uneven phosphor wear ever does become an issue in those "side bar" areas if the set is used for a lot of 4x3 viewing via "normal" mode, I suppose during several overnight periods one could send video black to the 4x3 area, and increase MID1/BCOL to say, "15"(results in white "side bar" area, BCOL=0 is black(default) during overnight periods to I would speculate, "even out" the uneven phosphor wear over several evenings(or several weeks/etc of overnight periods).

However, from what I've seen that's not really true for 4x3 video upconverted and sent by ATSC stations within 720p/1080i(16x9 of course) format(as you'd view it in "full" mode), as the "side bars" in this case are not the same width as what occurs with "normal" mode(these are usually sent with essentially NO overscan on the sides for instance.)

Jeff
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post #1822 of 2962 Old 07-19-2006, 03:33 AM
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I've been working on getting my 4:3 32HS420 overscan/positioning corrected. Lots of great info in this thread!

With a 480 source, AVIA overscan image on the screen, I can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to set the canvas and use MID3 to set the image. I have it set for 2-3% overscan all the way around and it looks good.

For 1080i mode I'm using an Xbox 360 (set to 1080i of course ) with an USB stick. Image viewer displaying a scaling image that's 1920x1080

With a 1080i source my set kicks in the "enhanced 16:9" and letterboxes the output. If I use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 in this mode it raises and lowers the letterboxed "canvas" and the sizes can be changed. But MID3 has no effect. So I can resize the "canvas", but I can't adjust the overscan.

By looking at the values in the SM's in 1080i mode I can see they are different from the 480 mode values. It's just that values in MID3 do nothing if change them.

I tested around a bit and nothing seemed to do the trick. Am I missing something? Does it not allow MID3 changes because it's a 4:3 set in an enhanced mode? Anybody tackle this yet?

I noticed my model doesn't have the QM menu either which woulde be nice

EDIT: V6 used as input
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post #1823 of 2962 Old 07-19-2006, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Den42 View Post

With a 480 source, AVIA overscan image on the screen, I can use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 to set the canvas and use MID3 to set the image. I have it set for 2-3% overscan all the way around and it looks good. With a 1080i source my set kicks in the "enhanced 16:9" and letterboxes the output. If I use 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 in this mode it raises and lowers the letterboxed "canvas" and the sizes can be changed. But MID3 has no effect. So I can resize the "canvas", but I can't adjust the overscan.

By looking at the values in the SM's in 1080i mode I can see they are different from the 480 mode values. It's just that values in MID3 do nothing if change them.

You should mention the exact video mode for 480. 480p and 480i are handled very differently inside the TV.

Please read the cautions expressed here. In particular, you must not use the settings in the MID groups for adjusting height, or you will run afoul of the precise scaling ratios that are specified for exactly matching the digital sampling of the video to the number of scan lines. I.e. leave VDVS set to their default values from the data charts (numbers like 135, 180, 60, 120). Vertical-size adjustments must be accomplished in the 2170D groups.

Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there. The height of this compressed raster is set in 2170D-1/ASPT, if the uncompressed 4:3 raster is already adjusted correctly for round circles, etc.

You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this shutter thing -- it's been a year since I did this to my TV. I recall minimizing my overscan for compressed rasters.)

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post #1824 of 2962 Old 07-19-2006, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

You should mention the exact video mode for 480. 480p and 480i are handled very differently inside the TV.

480p with the chart from AVIA
1080i with the image from the Xbox360

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Please read the cautions expressed In particular, you must not use the settings in the MID groups for adjusting height, or you will run afoul of the precise scaling ratios that are specified for exactly matching the digital sampling of the video to the number of scan lines. I.e. leave VDVS set to their default values from the data charts (numbers like 135, 180, 60, 120). Vertical-size adjustments must be accomplished in the 2170D groups.

VDVS in 1080i mode is set to the default of 135. Took a bit to realize that you were listing the values for each mode

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Note that for 1080i and other 16:9 display, the video material is technically not letterboxed; that is, no black bars are added to the video (using up scan lines). Rather, the entire vertical scan is compressed to the correct aspect ratio for 16:9, and all scan llines are really there, just as they would be on a widescreen TV. You can prove the point by cranking up the Brightness slider and noting that those "bars" above and below never glow because there's no scanning there. The height of this compressed raster is set in 2170D-1/ASPT, if the uncompressed 4:3 raster is already adjusted correctly for round circles, etc.

Wasn't sure of the technical name for it, I was going to say 'compressed output' instead of letterbox. I do understand it's not fully scanning the screen though. That's why I was having a hard time trying to figure out how to correct it.

Quote:


You can use the blanking shutters in 2170D-3, TBLK and BBLK to crop the 16:9 compressed raster as you wish. There are separate settings for 480 and 1080, and for compressed and full scan, so you should be able to customize it as you wish. The main reason for these "shutters" is to keep the electron beam from striking the side of the CRT, but in compressed mode the top and bottom shutters can act as a cropping tool. (Please correct me if I'm wrong on this shutter thing -- it's been a year since I did this to my TV. I recall minimizing my overscan for compressed rasters.)

That works! I re-adjusted and then set the shutters. Only thing is I have to watch on the top because the scan lines start to seperate on the top. I can only adjust so much and then there is distortion and then the seperation of the scan lines. I've got about 3% top and bottom and 2.5% on the sides. I have what looks like a UCP (UP COR PIN COR) problem up i'll have to look into.

I have some other stuff to fix. Here is a shot of the screen currently
EDIT:Not allowed to post URLs yet

Thank you for your help
Den
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post #1825 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 09:19 AM
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I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.

So, what's my best option for calibrating *all* my inputs for color/hue, picture/brightness, etc.?

I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

--
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post #1826 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

(Yeah, they might look weird to some as I have them set to be grey via MID1/BCOL=6 rather than the factory default of black and MID1/BCOL=0

Hey, Jeff?

I tried setting BCOL to a grayscale value to approximate the body color of my HS420,
to see if I liked that any better than Black; but I couldn't get the new value to save?

When I return to SM, it's reverted back to 0.

weird...

This setting is not marked with an asterix;
indicating temporary, and non-saveable in my models SM chart.
I wonder if it should be?...

--
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post #1827 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.

*Do* Keep in mind that for those sets that have them, those internal patterns are only 100% relevant to 1080i/480i/480p/720p signals coming from *ONLY* the internal ATSC/QAM tuners(and probably relevant(as it *mostly* seems anyway) from internal memory stick reader as well.

For instance --- While yes, it's true that ATSC/QAM tuners use the "RF" input so to speak --- HOWEVER --- there's no way to calibrate for NTSC SD analog signals from those patterns. And in this case, for "RF input" You have to calibrate for each source signal's input source's (scan rate - 480i/480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and for NTSC SD) Seperately.

Quote:
I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

I'd say it would probably be worthwhile, and *may* get you close(especially for your composite input sources), or perhaps closer concerning "RF input" if the RF input is already not fairly well calibrated "at the factory"(it really *should* have been, but you know how that goes ....).

But yes, that's reliant on your DVD player, which is one reason why I also hooked up my DVD player to other sets to see if I came up with the same "results". Luckily, concerning black/white levels -- via S-video or composite out from DVD, it does seem to fairly closely match other devices, including when I've tried it with other sets. Color wise it seems to be "spot on". I tried this experiment with another DVD player I own, however, and the results were not as good concerning black/white levels, but color was also "spot on" with it. Inany case, Hooking up my DVD player to s-video +calibarting with various test patterns from AVIA or DVE *seemed* to get me awfully close for the output from my Dish Network receiver and S-VHS deck hooked up via S-video.

If you do run into a problem, for instance with the black/white levels from your DVD player via composite out not "matching" your other devices, you'd then probably need to make adjustments by eye.

It would be difficult to impossible to explain exactly *how* I made some slight adjustments for "RF" input for color which *seemed* to have worked well ... In short, it involved some color bars being broadcast by NTSC station(received analog OTA) late at night(which were definitely "wrong" as being sent), and some "comparisions"(and assumptions) between the results from the internal NTSC tuner(via RF) *And* the NTSC tuner in the S-VHS deck via S-video(CV/YC) .... There was a *little* more to this -- but In short while not being completely accurate, *assuming* that the color balance as calibrated for CV/YC via s-video from DVD player was *close* for accurate color from the S-VHS deck's NTSC tuner, I then adjusted RF input's 2103-1 color settings(while using RGBS) so that the NTSC color bars from "RF" input *matched* the results from NTSC color bars from the S-VHS deck's tuner ... It was sort of difficult working this way, since it was obvious the color bars were "wrong" as being sent by the station -- so, instead of how you would "normally" adjust for color balance while looking at color bars and using RGBS, I was instead having to match the results via RF to be the same "color balance mismatch" as was occuring via S-video ....

I *still* consider those color settings I've done for "RF" input highly "experimental" and "subject to revision"(and I plan to revisit them, hopefully if I can catch more accurate color bars being sent by a local station). However, it does seem to produce very good results from what I can tell .... For instance .. I know via info from the station engineer that one station in my area(a state wide PBS "affiliate" network with a statewide network of transmitters) sends/distributes the datastream to each transmitter site from their network center via their statewide STL(studio-transmitter link) network, which is then "passed along"(without being decoded/reencoded at transmitter site) by the digital station's transmitter to be decoded on the user end -- For the analog station, at each transmitter site, the stream from the network center is decoded, and one of the SD services(they are multicasting several, with HD as well in the evening) is decoded and output as NTSC from the decoder+sent to the analog transmitter -- Therefore -- It's setup so the video signal from the analog station *should* be "pretty much" the same as the SD digital service --- And, It "pretty much" is (including color wise, and black/white level wise/etc/etc) when I switch between the two ....

Probably doesn't make much sense, but hopefully it helps in some way ...
--
corlay[/quote]

Jeff
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post #1828 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

Hey, Jeff?

I tried setting BCOL to a grayscale value to approximate the body color of my HS420,
to see if I liked that any better than Black; but I couldn't get the new value to save?

When I return to SM, it's reverted back to 0.

weird...

This setting is not marked with an asterix;
indicating temporary, and non-saveable in my models SM chart.
I wonder if it should be?...

--
corlay

I don't know -- It may be temporary/not saved on your set -- For my model's chart(KD34XBR960), it shows up in Green shading, and without an asterix.

That being said -- The first time I adjusted it, I *did* run into some problems getting it to "stick" - In fact, I experienced the same thing as you the first time I changed it. And, although I didn't take the best most "precise" notes concerning exactly what happened, farther below(below first dotted line) are the notes I did manage to take on it, and how I got it "to work" -- Note: IF I recall correctly -- what actually did the trick and got it to start "working" was I had to input a value other than "0" when I had "full" screen mode up on the screen - which definitely seemed odd, as of course, there is *NO* effect from this setting with "full" or any of the "zoom" modes ....

Since then, I've twiddled it several times to slightly different values(only for the screen modes it effects -- "normal" and "twin view"- for twin view, it gives you a "grey" background, you have two windows in middle of screen) and never had a problem with the new value "sticking".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my "XBR960SM changes file" :

MID1:

Default in parentheses:

#24 - BCOL - 6 (0 )

BCOL set to 6 For All screen modes/Inputs - I.e. for "Normal", "Twin View"(for others) and (I think) "full"

NOTE: In order for this to "stick" for "normal"(and not go back to 0/black - even though it still SAID 6) for some strange reason, EVEN though it was showing up as "6" no matter what AR mode I used, I had to enter 6 and press Mute-Enter for one of the other AR manipulation modes -- I think it was "full" but may have been one of the other ones, instead.

====================================

Jeff
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post #1829 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

If you do run into a problem, for instance with the black/white levels from your DVD player via composite out not "matching" your other devices, you'd then probably need to make adjustments by eye.

That's ok. Color/Hue is the grouping that I just can't seem to 'eyeball' very well. But if I can get that set via calibration with DVE, then I can flip-flop between RF and another source to manually set Picture/Brightness.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

In short, it involved some color bars being broadcast by NTSC station(received analog OTA) late at night(which were definitely "wrong" as being sent),

Yeah, my local NBC station broadcasts the NTSC color bars after ~2:00am; and I actually stayed up one night and calibrated RF to that. It differed by 2-3 clicks for UCOF and 1-2clicks for UHOF from my DVE calibrated component input. I lived with it for a few days, and decided that it looked like total sh*t. The ABC station looked OK, but all the rest (all 13 of 'em. WHOOHOO!) were hard to look at. So, for now, I've just set all of my input paths that I'm currently using (RF, Composite) to the Component settings...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

Probably doesn't make much sense, but hopefully it helps in some way ...

I admit - not easy to follow. But I get the jist of it, I think...

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corlay
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post #1830 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

NOTE: In order for this to "stick" for "normal"(and not go back to 0/black - even though it still SAID 6) for some strange reason, EVEN though it was showing up as "6" no matter what AR mode I used, I had to enter 6 and press Mute-Enter for one of the other AR manipulation modes -- I think it was "full" but may have been one of the other ones, instead.

Thanks!

I'll try that tonight...

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corlay
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