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post #1831 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by corlay View Post

I've verified that my HS420 does not have internal test patterns in the SM.

So, what's my best option for calibrating *all* my inputs for color/hue, picture/brightness, etc.?

I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

--
corlay

The way I handled this was to use the test patterns provided by INHD via Comcast. The "show" was called (IN)HD Tune Up and was broadcast every Saturday morning at 7:00 eastern time. There were test patterns for contrast, brightness, color and hue. They also had a pattern for convergence that can almost be used for sharpness. They also included audio test patterns for HT set-up.

Fortunately I recorded this show, as I haven't seen it on lately. I understand HDNet also broadcasts a similar show.
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post #1832 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justsc View Post

The way I handled this was to use the test patterns provided by INHD via Comcast. The "show" was called (IN)HD Tune Up and was broadcast every Saturday morning at 7:00 eastern time. There were test patterns for contrast, brightness, color and hue. They also had a pattern for convergence that can almost be used for sharpness. They also included audio test patterns for HT set-up.

Fortunately I recorded this show, as I haven't seen it on lately. I understand HDNet also broadcasts a similar show.

That's great to calibrate for 1080i(from internal ATSC/QAM tuner via cablecard or as *specific* to your cable STB via component or HDMI) ---- however, I don't believe any of that would be relevent to NTSC SD analog signals via RF input, or via composite input - except perhaps to some extent if you are referring to hooking up a cable STB via s-video or composite input and sending a 480i/SD signal from the STB to the TV to make use of those patterns, or sending 480i SD/NTSC to a DVR VCR/etc. for calibration of the input used with VCR ....

Completetly different SM settings per SCAN rate of source signal(480i, 1080i/etc), in some cases even different scan rates coming through the *same* input ..... For instance ... 2170P-3 has "specific" settings per scan rate, such as for example, UBOF (black level offset) for *each* scan rate via "RF" input (NTSC SD, 480i,480p,720p,1080i HD. Different 2170P4 color saturation/HUE settings per different scan rate. *some* settings are not only "different" for scan rate, but are different for input as well --- different settings for say, 1080i via Component, HDMI OR from the internal ATSC/QAM tuner.

Note that in the SM/code charts, "RF" refers to only the sets' NTSC OTA/Cable ready tuner --- However -- Signals from the sets NTSC OTA/Cable ready tuner, the set's internal ATSC/QAM tuner(could be 480i/480p/720p/1080i) all pass through only a single(or two) "inputs" (either Antenna or cable on back of set) so to speak, with only one set of settings to use for both those inputs on back of set via the user menu controls(sharpness, contrast, brightness sliders/etc) ....

Also, for example --- "RF" and CV/YC(composite and s-video) have several specific(to each) color and "contrast" related settings in 2103-1. 2103-1 settings Don't effect 1080i at all, even those signals coming through the same "RF input" (such as from the internal tuners) and having only 1 set of values available via the user menu controls. Also, 480p, 720p, and 1080i are effected by various 2171CXA chip settings, 480i/NTSC signals go nowhere near that chip ....

OTOH, I do have some of the HDnet patterns(1920x1080i) on MS you mention, and they do seem to match up well given a calibration for 1080i ATSC via the internal ATSC QM test patterns.

Jeff
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post #1833 of 2962 Old 07-20-2006, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

I can hook up the dvd player to run through RF (my cable tv input, via composite to the VCR player, and RF from VCR to TV...) and composite (my VCR input, direct from DVD player) and calibrate that way; but is that worthwhile?
This is reliant upon my dvd player to be consistient with the cable tv and vcr source signals regularly sent through those paths. Will it get me close?

Oops! another thought on this I forgot to mention earlier, as I think I misunderstood what you were saying a bit ... You know, I'm not so sure I'd trust the RF modulator in a DVD player or VCR for "accurate" color, but then again, who knows it might work to get you "close" for the RF input ...

And, I'd also probably want to run the output direct from the DVD player to the TV (whether via composite, s-video or RF) ...

Also, You may not get the same(or accurate, or "as accurate") results for instance via the VCR's input and running "through" the VCR in "real time" vs the VCR's tuner, or hooking DVD player directly to TV, or, for example making a recording and playing the tape ...

If I recall correctly(and I may not be), it may turn out that you may also run into some "copy protection" snafu's(so to speak) using the VCR's input in such a manner ...

Jeff
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post #1834 of 2962 Old 07-21-2006, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

That's great to calibrate for 1080i(from internal ATSC/QAM tuner via cablecard or as *specific* to your cable STB via component or HDMI) ---- however, I don't believe any of that would be relevent to NTSC SD analog signals via RF input, or via composite input - except perhaps to some extent if you are referring to hooking up a cable STB via s-video or composite input and sending a 480i/SD signal from the STB to the TV to make use of those patterns, or sending 480i SD/NTSC to a DVR VCR/etc. for calibration of the input used with VCR ......

My mistake.

I thought he was trying to directly calibrate his HD input in the absense of internal test patterns.

Oh well...
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post #1835 of 2962 Old 07-21-2006, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitewatchman View Post

For instance --- While yes, it's true that ATSC/QAM tuners use the "RF" input so to speak --- HOWEVER --- there's no way to calibrate for NTSC SD analog signals from those patterns. And in this case, for "RF input" You have to calibrate for each source signal's input source's (scan rate - 480i/480p/720p/1080i ATSC, and for NTSC SD) Seperately.

I don't have a color-bar generator for standard analog RF, but I am pleased with the adjustments I have made. In summary:

(1) I note that analog-RF station-to-station differences are greater than any error I am likely to incur from mis-adjusting color, or rather using other inputs to adjust it, assuming adequacy for RF. So . . .

(2) I used alignment DVDs to adjust my component and HDMI inputs for my Panasonic S97 player.

(3) I used the built-in patterns to adjust HD 1080i and 720p for color and hue.

(4) I made initial adjustments to color and hue for 480i from the built-in test patterns.

(5) I note that local analog-cable studio broadcasts and high-quality network feeds are generally dead-on in color and hue, according to my eyes. Occasionally I reduce Color a bit. I can't ask for more. And I consider it perfectly normal when switching to (for example) MTV "reality" programming to (a) make a big adjustment to the black level, and (b) reduce color a lot, maybe from 31 to 25. So much for standards! Same with much of PBS-SD.

(6) Previous to all of this, I found my set's "RF" adjustments to be rather well-set out-of-the-box. When I got various color parameters tweaked with the DVD test disks, RF sort of fell into place. Maybe that was just good luck.

The bottom line is that, as long as good big-network and local-studio feeds look good, I am willing to tolerate a lot of variation from the other analog cable channels, and just tweak the controls on the fly. I simply don't hold those broadcasts to the same standards as big-budget DVDs and HD broadcast, or even DVD releases of older films (which I like a lot).

An addendum: I'm sorry to hear from Jeff that his local color bars gave such poor results! One time I stumbled on color bars on the Travel Channel on analog cable. You can't imagine how quickly I got into service mode and quickly shut down various color guns to see how things looked! To my surprise, color pretty much looked well-adjusted -- not that I think Travel Channel is a perfect example (although lately they are much better than a year ago!), but those bars were pure serendipity. I haven't a clue where to find more bars on the usual analog cable channels.

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post #1836 of 2962 Old 07-21-2006, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustSc View Post

My mistake.

I thought he was trying to directly calibrate his HD input in the absense of internal test patterns.

No problem .. BTW ... I was hoping my earlier response didn't seem "standoffish", as I certianly did not intend it to be ... but, I know it's difficult to judge "intent" on a forum such as this, hence why I'm "commenting" on it here(probably unnecessarily) ...

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post #1837 of 2962 Old 07-21-2006, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

An addendum: I'm sorry to hear from Jeff that his local color bars gave such poor results! .

Well, it seems rare here to catch color bars up from NTSC stations, at least with my schedule. It just so happened that when I did, it was from a station which at the time wasn't sending accurate colorimetry. And as you say, the video "quality"(colorimetry, black levels/etc) can vary greatly among such sources .... Probably also doesn't help some of these stations seem to think it's a good idea to have their own "look" .....

Don't think I've ever caught test patterns up from any of the services I receive via satellite(dish network receiver via CV/YC- s-video), besides a quick pattern up from NASATV occasionally(but not long enough to get into SM and use the 3dcomb "FRZE" control to "freeze it" before it disappears!), and I've missed anything like that so far on the travel channel ...

Now ... OTOH, I *have* on occasion caught *dead on* color bars up from local ATSC broadcast sources -- 480i SD "subchannels", and HD color bars from CBS HD network feed when a MCO neglected to switch from the network feed to local after a night of HD programming/etc ....

In fact, at one point I had recorded some color bars which were up on a PBS stations 480i SD subchannel to S-VHS(via an external ATSC decoder sending 480i via S-video to the VCR). Among other things involving another set(the set the external "HD" ATSC tuner/decoder is hooked up to via component connections)this allowed me to seemingly *confirm*, in a sense my calibration of color of the XBR960's CV/YC (Svideo) input - which I had performed with a DVD player(Avia/DVE color tests) hooked up to S-Video input making use of RGBS as well, of course. I wasn't sure whether it would work or not, and must say I was a bit surprised the S-VHS recording *did* match my color calibartion with DVD player via S-video. Given what I see colorwise with *real* programming from Sat receiver also hooked up to S-Video, I must also assume the calibration via the DVD player hooked to s-video worked well for it also ...

Might have to hook up the S-VHS deck to RF input, and via the VCR's RF modulator at some point see what those color bars look like(I think I still have it) just for the heck of it ...

Quote:


(6) Previous to all of this, I found my set's "RF" adjustments to be rather well-set out-of-the-box. When I got various color parameters tweaked with the DVD test disks, RF sort of fell into place. Maybe that was just good luck.

Didn't have to do much for CV/YC or RF here, either. For that matter, Colorwise --- Other than RYR~GYB adjustment, and adjustment of CBOF/CROF offsets(couldn't use color bars/color decoding tests for CBOF/CROF adjustment of course - using video black and color/brightness sliders worked well though, along with tests with "real" B&W programming) . ---------- My color adjustments from factory values have been very slight for all used inputs/scan rates -- For instance ... only needed to make slight adjustements to 2170P4 SCOL for *any* used input, and didn't need to change 2170P4 SHUE for anything(for color/Hue sliders 31/0). Based on others reports I assume most sets will *not* require this, but I did also need to do a very slight adjustment to 2171cxa CBGN~YGN (CBGN~CRGN being the relevant "color" seettings) - to "4-4-4" from factory value of "4-5-5" - colorwise, involving for a slight imbalance for 480p/720p/1080i signals via ATSC internal tuner+ 480p Via DVD via V5/V6 component which was occuring.

Color decoding wise -- Concerning RF+CV/YC for NTSC SD sources -- Just some slight tweaks to 2103-1 SHUE/SCOL were necessary after adjusting 2170P4 SCOL for 480i DRC(no change for SHUE needed) via color tests from DVD+ a couple of QM 480i patterns - as of course all 480i DRC processed sources(including NTSC from RF and CV/YC) share the same 2170P4 SCOL/SHUE setting. I first did it with the P2170-3 offsets, but later decided to do it in 2103-1 instead, which if I recall correctly allowed for a little "finer" control -- and of course similar adjustments were needed in 2103-2 for the right twin view window ... The latter might seem overly obsessive, but, since I do use it occasionally -- it did bother me when the L+R twinview windows did not "match" each other with the factory settings when the same input source was used for both .... I certianly won't be making slight tweaks for posisitioning of L+R twinview windows(or index, favorites/"freeze"/etc) via MID3 VDHP/VDVE controls however!

Really, the *most* significant change/improvement for me for color decoding resulted from adjusting 2170P4 RYR~GYB from factory values to 14-14-6-4 (I also have RYR~GYB set to 13-15-5-3 for the other user menu color-axis choice - although I rarely(well, pretty much never) actually use it. It *did* take me a while to decide on 14-15-6-4 vs 14-14-6-4 ... but after several weeks, based mostly on slight differences in flesh tones - decided on 14-14-6-4, even though I *thought* I acheived slightly better results with 14-15-6-4 via avia/DVE color tests, as well as similar tests I did via MS and the internal "QM" patterns .....

NTSC wise, I use "RF input" solely for analog OTA broadcasts, which of course, as scheduled now(at least from "full service" stations) will be going away in a few years .... Although, currently I certianly do appreciate a high quality NTSC broadcast, and often still use it for the 23 local NTSC stations(full service and low power) I receieve mostly excellent quality signals from OTA. For example, in many cases, and for various reasons I seem to prefer the "look" of the NTSC video vs. what I get from a digital station's when they are upconverting the analog plant's NTSC SD signal to 720p/1080i ....

I assume(hope anyway) once we get closer to analog shut off, stations(in my area at least) will begin to pay a little more attention to the quality of their digital broadcasts during times when the Network HD feed isn't active ....

In any case, I'm also very happy with the results I've come up with on all used inputs/scan rates, including RF input for OTA NTSC broadcast sources.

Jeff
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post #1838 of 2962 Old 07-22-2006, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a geometry issue I'd like some help with, if anyone has any fresh ideas. There may be no perfect solution.

If I set vertical linearity for 480i full-screen to be just perfect, using the usual patterns (crosshatch, circles, etc.), and adjusting the usual service-mode parameters (2170D-1: VLIN, VSCO, UVLN, LVLN), the display is then not linear in 1080i HD-braodcast mode. The center is stretched, and moving film credits swell as they pass the middle of the screen and shrink as they disappear off the top. Interestingly, 960i and 480p in 16:9 (DVD-anamorphic) mode is fine, tracking the 4:3 settings. It's the damn HD that's screwed up.

I have juggled VSCO and the two _VLN parameters to lessen the stretch on HD and add a little center compression on SD, which I don't seem to notice much. But that seems like a poor workaround.

So the burning question is: Is there a setting for 1080i I'm missing that tweaks linearity for that mode relative to the 480/960i modes? (Maybe this problem doesn't appear at all on widescreen sets, although my 16:9 480p raster should mimic that condition.)

I'm not thinking there's a solution in any of the MID groups, since those are exclusively digital scaling, positioning, and superimposing functions. In 2170D-2 there are UCP, LCP, UXCG, LXCG, UXCP, and UXLP parameters that affect only PIN correction in the corners. The raster-mode switch (a deflection parameter) is hiding as IDSW in 2170P-4, but I don't see anything else there related to deflection. I can't guess what 2170D-4/VLNL and VLNH do.

I'm out of ideas. Any suggestions?

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post #1839 of 2962 Old 07-22-2006, 10:09 PM
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Ken,

Speed bumps are really annoying and time consuming to eliminate because there are so many adjustments that interact.

Have you tried the UVLN/LVLN (upper/lower vertical linearity) after setting 1080i? VSCO may apply too. I don't have one here, so I can't verify the function. You might get linearity correct for 1080i, and adjust ULVN/LVLN to correct 4:3. This may also interact with vertical size adjustments and the VSZO for 1080i.

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post #1840 of 2962 Old 07-23-2006, 01:23 AM
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I just wanted to ask, do the numbers 7, 8 or 9 by themselves do anything on a XBR970 in the SM?

Cause I hit 8 by itself (I think 8, could have been 7 or 9 though), but pretty sure it was 8 due to me using the button 5 at the time when I saw "reset" pop up in green. I stopped right away and didn't do anything else.

I'm just wondering now if maybe the XBR970 is a bit different for the dangerous buttons, or is it normal for "reset" to pop up from 1 dangerous button press? With 3 only being for the save feature.

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post #1841 of 2962 Old 07-23-2006, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Have you tried the UVLN/LVLN (upper/lower vertical linearity) after setting 1080i? VSCO may apply too. I don't have one here, so I can't verify the function. You might get linearity correct for 1080i, and adjust ULVN/LVLN to correct 4:3. This may also interact with vertical size adjustments and the VSZO for 1080i.

They all apply in both scan modes, and they all interact. I have become thoroughly familiar with these basic adjustments, and the point is that a good set of adjustments for 480i is somewhat off for 1080i, unless there is a "trick" I haven't discovered yet.

An example: VSCO is "s-correction" along the vertical axis, stretching or compressing the center third of the scrren relative to the top and bottom. But the action of UVLN/LVLN is similar, but not exactly the same. I have tried various combinations of VSCO, VLIN, VSIZ, and UVLN/LVLN -- there is more than one set of numbers that looks just fine on, say, 480. But they all suffer from the same basic problem: A perfect raster set for 4:3 or 16:9 480i/p suffers a bit from top and bottom compression in 1080i 16:9. SInce the vertical scan rate is the same, I can't imagine what changes! If the scan is perfectly linear for 60Hz vertical rate for 480, why would it become nonlinear for 1080? Only the horizontal scan is changed.

It may come down to the compromise: Which is more obnoxious, compression at top and bottom on HD, or a little stretch top and bottom on 480 full-screen? My interim solution is to split the error, minimizing the HD distortions. Not bad. But you'd think that there would be separate registers for a couple of these parameters for this TV's two scan modes (540 and 480 lines, 60Hz).

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post #1842 of 2962 Old 07-23-2006, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeminiEntity View Post

Cause I hit 8 by itself (I think 8, could have been 7 or 9 though), but pretty sure it was 8 due to me using the button 5 at the time when I saw "reset" pop up in green. I stopped right away and didn't do anything else.

I'm just wondering now if maybe the XBR970 is a bit different for the dangerous buttons, or is it normal for "reset" to pop up from 1 dangerous button press? With 3 only being for the save feature.

I just reviewed the 960's service-manual pages for navigating service mode. It seems that all dangerous actions (e.g. the "bad" INI function) require three button-presses. They start with 7 and include 9 or Jump as button #2. I have seen an unwanted RESET message pop up when I accidentally press only one button. I'll check later today to see what that button might be. I think it's 8.

In any case, you did exactly the right thing by stopping when you saw something unfamiliar pop up. This happens to me occasionally, and I just freeze! In a couple of seconds, the screen reverts to SERVICE, and you're fine.

The service manual for the 970's predescessors does not document any two-button combinations that are dangerous. 0 - Enter (displays READ) just restores the settings that were last-saved and is essential before making changes you wish to save. (It erases any haphazard diddling that may have preceded your intent to save some settings. It's best to READ the saved settings, make the new settings, then WRITE them. That way you don't accidentally save something unintended.)

I believe I have read in this forum that 8 brings up RESET, and it's not documented in the manual. But I recall that it's the same as the user-menu function: It sets the user menus back to factory defaults and does not affect any service-mode parameters. I would search for this message in this thread to see what that person wrote. I have never used the RESET function, as it makes me nervous and I have had no reason to use it.

(Sony has no incentive to change service-mode navigation for the 960-970 model update. They would upset a lot of service people, too!)

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post #1843 of 2962 Old 07-23-2006, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

(Maybe this problem doesn't appear at all on widescreen sets, although my 16:9 480p raster should mimic that condition.)?

FWIW, *Vertical* linearity *matches up* on my XBR960 for all the different scan rates/screen modes(per crosshatch patterns via 480i/480p/DVD, and 1080i MS/QM patterns) .....

The issue I have involves Horizontal linearity(per all scan rates/screen modes) issue in about the middle(existing from top to bottom) of the "right 1/2" and "Left 1/2" of screen , and there doesn't seem to be a way to get it "perfect" .... Athough can't say it's something I notice is a problem while watching programming.

As I believe I've mentioned previously -- Oddly enough, it seems "HCNT" setting does effect it slightly(VERY slightly), even when HPOS is adjusted to center the image. So, I get *slightly* improved Horizontal Linearity using "HCNT=40"(needs HPOS=25 to achieve the same "image" centering result as HPOS=27 for HCNT=38) vs HCNT=38(needs HPOS=27 for proper centering of image), the latter which "centers" the raster and was the factory default. It is so slight of an improvement in H linearity(and pretty much requires careful measurement of crosshatch "boxes" to detect it), however that for other reasons, I think I've pretty much settled on "centering the raster" with HCNT=38 ...

Quote:


a good set of adjustments for 480i is somewhat off for 1080i ..

I have run into an alltoghether(seemingly) "different" issue with this .. Small distortions in vertical lines several inches down from upper right/left corners of screen which are *barely* there or noticable for 480i/p to some, slight extent, but are worse/much more apparent with 1080i/720p ... These distortions are somewhat "annoying", but effect such a small area of screen(although the "bends" involved don't *seem* all that small) that although they are effected somewhat by various settings (SLIN, UCP/etc), there seems to be no way to entirely "fix it" with SM settings ... They are especially annoying on the upper left side of screen via the 720p/1080i internal "QM" section sweep patterns, and the left vertical lines in the "banner info box" that displays program/ratings info/etc from EPG info sent via something called "PSIP" by ATSC broadcast stations/etc .....


====================================

Having dealt with geometry/linearity issues on three different models of "flat-screen" Direct-View CRT HD displays I've owned so far, and pretty much a lack of such issues(and ease of adjustments concerning the slight issues that were present) on an RCA F38310 (38" 16x9 HD DV-CRT) with a CURVED tube : I must say, In this regard I liked the "curved tube" set better ...

Jeff
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post #1844 of 2962 Old 07-23-2006, 02:42 PM
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some one heard about the sony xbr 400 or any other that we can apply also?
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post #1845 of 2962 Old 07-23-2006, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I just reviewed the 960's service-manual pages for navigating service mode. It seems that all dangerous actions (e.g. the "bad" INI function) require three button-presses. They start with 7 and include 9 or Jump as button #2. I have seen an unwanted RESET message pop up when I accidentally press only one button. I'll check later today to see what that button might be. I think it's 8.

In any case, you did exactly the right thing by stopping when you saw something unfamiliar pop up. This happens to me occasionally, and I just freeze! In a couple of seconds, the screen reverts to SERVICE, and you're fine.

The service manual for the 970's predescessors does not document any two-button combinations that are dangerous. 0 - Enter (displays READ) just restores the settings that were last-saved and is essential before making changes you wish to save. (It erases any haphazard diddling that may have preceded your intent to save some settings. It's best to READ the saved settings, make the new settings, then WRITE them. That way you don't accidentally save something unintended.)

I believe I have read in this forum that 8 brings up RESET, and it's not documented in the manual. But I recall that it's the same as the user-menu function: It sets the user menus back to factory defaults and does not affect any service-mode parameters. I would search for this message in this thread to see what that person wrote. I have never used the RESET function, as it makes me nervous and I have had no reason to use it.

(Sony has no incentive to change service-mode navigation for the 960-970 model update. They would upset a lot of service people, too!)

Thanks for replying so soon. I tried searching for the post about 8/Reset but I got nothing. It probably was 8 that I hit, due to me using 5 just before reset popped up. One thing is for sure, if I didn't hit 8 and 7 or 9 was hit, I definitely did not hit 7 and 9 together. Cause with one thumb that's impossible unless you are trying to.

Another thing, you said that the notes are in order of importance. So I should start with color and black level, then gamma, then brightness, etc? I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread?

Thanks

Rock You
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post #1846 of 2962 Old 07-24-2006, 07:45 AM
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anyone see any harm in a calibrated SBRT value of 19?

This is due to my 480i output from my DVD player being *much brighter* than 480p. So, I've settled on UBOF=0 for 480i, and UBOF=5 for 480p on V5/V6. My other signal paths fall in between with RF @ UBOF=2 and CY/CV @ UBOF=3.

I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus? Just wanted to be sure before I go and jack with those settings... My range for *DRV/*CUT settings now are ~18 - ~45. If I'm understanding the relationships correctly, raising SBRT will force me to *lower* that range, correct? Some folks had reported optimal results with those values pushed higher, rather than lower; which is why I'm concerned.

I'm leaning toward just leaving well enough alone...

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post #1847 of 2962 Old 07-24-2006, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

anyone see any harm in a calibrated SBRT value of 19?

This is due to my 480i output from my DVD player being *much brighter* than 480p. So, I've settled on UBOF=0 for 480i, and UBOF=5 for 480p on V5/V6. My other signal paths fall in between with RF @ UBOF=2 and CY/CV @ UBOF=3.

I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus? Just wanted to be sure before I go and jack with those settings... My range for *DRV/*CUT settings now are ~18 - ~45. If I'm understanding the relationships correctly, raising SBRT will force me to *lower* that range, correct? Some folks had reported optimal results with those values pushed higher, rather than lower; which is why I'm concerned.

I'm leaning toward just leaving well enough alone...

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corlay

I think the general consensus is that SBRT is the exact same adjustment as the Brightness adjustment from the main menu, so no, it shouldn't matter at all.
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post #1848 of 2962 Old 07-24-2006, 10:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corlay View Post

I've read here that re-caibrating the *DRV/*CUT values with SRBT @ 31-ish may produce better results? Is this the general concensus?

I agree with RWetmore that you're probably just fine. What none of know for sure is where these scaling parameters (SBRT, Brightness menu, the RDRV~BCUT settings, etc.) are applied in the processing chain. There is always the possibility that a high setting before an amplification or filtering stage, "compensated" by a low setting after that stage, may cause over-driving of that intermediate stage, resulting in some nonlinearity. If the processing ir purely digital, likely there's no problem. And the internal computation may simply add together (digitally) the SBRT and Brightness settings, which means they are equivalent.

But we know none of this for sure. I have simply followed my engineer's instincts, looked at Sony's default settings, and aimed for values near the middle of the range for certain parameters, such as the _DRV and _CUT settings. My TV came with SBRT set at 16 or 18 (a bad case of black crush!), and I had to increase it. But if your set looks good with SBRT at 19, I'd leave it be. I'm more suspicious of other parameters being at the extremes, maybe _DRV and _CUT, but not SBRT + Brightness.

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post #1849 of 2962 Old 07-24-2006, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GeminiEntity View Post

Another thing, you said that the notes are in order of importance. So I should start with color and black level, then gamma, then brightness, etc?

I confess that the order is merely the order it occurred to me to write those articles. (I assume that's what you're referring to.) Many of the realms of adjustment, e.g. black level, Picture (contrast), gamma, are completely independent. Others, such as grayscale and color temperature, are intimately intertwined. (Hm. Interesting metaphor.) I guess I started with what I perceived as fundamentals, then went on to refine the adjustments as I got smarter -- the image-processing, for example.
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I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread?

Several folks, including me, have posted suggestions about geometry. I dealt formally with focus and convergence, but I personally kept putting off formal comments about geometry until way after those initial articles. Meanwhile, other folks stepped in to answer questions and help -- you just have to search for the posts.

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Sorry for the OT post, but I submitted a post a while ago in which I stated that some of my adjustments in the 2170D-1 menu stopped having an effect (VCEN and VPIN in particular.)
Now, to my horror, I recently discovered that the Vertical Tilt and Centering adjustments in the User Menu don't respond to adjustment either. I haven't come across any other SM adjustments that have lost their effectiveness. Any ideas as to where this problem could be based?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Regards,

Bryan

p.s. I will post in the 955 owners thread as well. MOD please delete this post if it is misplaced.
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post #1851 of 2962 Old 07-25-2006, 09:13 PM
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Quote:


I can't seem to find though anything to fix my geometry problems, is that located somewhere in this thread

Someone posted a pdf file of the geometry adjustment diagrams in the service manual here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8075525
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post #1852 of 2962 Old 07-25-2006, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Right. May be the same thing, but you can also check out posts nos. 33 and 78, too. It's important to follow the procedure, using Sony's service-manual procedure to (a) center the raster on the tube; then (b) center the video frame on the raster. The other adjustments proceed from there (linearity, aspect ration, overscan, pincushion, etc.).

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post #1853 of 2962 Old 07-26-2006, 05:15 AM
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KenTech,

I opened a thread about the color depth supported by Sony XBR910 using its DVI input, but no one seemed to even look at it.

Do you know what color depth is supported by the XBR910 tube? I am specifically refering to the ability (or lack thereof) of DVI in general or XBR910 with DVI in particular to display Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White signals.

Do you know?
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post #1854 of 2962 Old 07-26-2006, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

I opened a thread about the color depth supported by Sony XBR910 using its DVI input, but no one seemed to even look at it.

Do you know what color depth is supported by the XBR910 tube? I am specifically refering to the ability (or lack thereof) of DVI in general or XBR910 with DVI in particular to display Blacker Than Black and Whiter Than White signals.

I know know only that it is widely acknowledged that the sets having HDMI inputs support the full HDMI definition. Although I have read the description, I have no savvy about the distinction between DVI and HDMI. I think DVI is a subset, meaning its capabilities are contained within HDMI.

But does the 910 support the full HDMI spec? The later 32-36XS955 and XBR960s do, indeed.

You can read the spec. I seem to recall that it's at least 8-bit (for DVI), maybe 10-bit luminance resolution (for HDMI) -- there are a certain number of bits supported. I believe "black" is supplied by the signal source to a certain standard, or not, and it's not up to the TV. Example: My Panasonic S97 DVD player does not support BTB and WTW out of the box; you have to fudge the "brightness" up and "contrast" down in the player to allow for a couple of those extra levels. The TV is simply displaying what it is fed.

The specifications of DVI and of HDMI are easily available on the Internet. For the video source, I believe black is typically defined, not as digital zero, but as a low number -- 16? And white is not 255 but something less -- 239 or 235? It's the TV's job to display all levels from 0 to 255. If the source has black at zero, then there's no possibility for BTB; if it's 16, BTB is possible, and the TV is adjusted for proper black level = 16.

Bottom line: The TV's job is to potentially display all the bit-levels sent to it. How they're defined is up to the source, but you get to determine on the TV what level is displayed as "black" (SBRT and other black-level offsets, plus the Brightness slider).

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post #1855 of 2962 Old 07-26-2006, 11:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Spankenstein View Post

. . . some of my adjustments in the 2170D-1 menu stopped having an effect (VCEN and VPIN in particular.)
Now, to my horror, I recently discovered that the Vertical Tilt and Centering adjustments in the User Menu don't respond to adjustment either. I haven't come across any other SM adjustments that have lost their effectiveness. Any ideas as to where this problem could be based?

Something has changed, and the question is what. Has a wire come loose? Has a chip died?

If the centering and tilt, etc, are provided by physical magnetic coils separate from the main deflection coils (I don't know), their connection could have gone awry. If those geometry corrections are internally computed and added to the (still working) deflection currents (I'll put money on that), then something more subtle may have happened. In either case, it sound to me like it's a service issue. I am unaware that there's any service-mode settings that "locks out" changes to these parameters in software. I'll look at the circuit schematics to see if those functions are on a separate circuit board that may have come loose, but I doubt it. I think all deflection stuff is integrated on one board.

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post #1856 of 2962 Old 07-26-2006, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I know know only that it is widely acknowledged that the sets having HDMI inputs support the full HDMI definition. Although I have read the description, I have no savvy about the distinction between DVI and HDMI. I think DVI is a subset, meaning its capabilities are contained within HDMI.

But does the 910 support the full HDMI spec? The later 32-36XS955 and XBR960s do, indeed.

You can read the spec. I seem to recall that it's at least 8-bit (for DVI), maybe 10-bit luminance resolution (for HDMI) -- there are a certain number of bits supported. I believe "black" is supplied by the signal source to a certain standard, or not, and it's not up to the TV. Example: My Panasonic S97 DVD player does not support BTB and WTW out of the box; you have to fudge the "brightness" up and "contrast" down in the player to allow for a couple of those extra levels. The TV is simply displaying what it is fed.

The specifications of DVI and of HDMI are easily available on the Internet. For the video source, I believe black is typically defined, not as digital zero, but as a low number -- 16? And white is not 255 but something less -- 239 or 235? It's the TV's job to display all levels from 0 to 255. If the source has black at zero, then there's no possibility for BTB; if it's 16, BTB is possible, and the TV is adjusted for proper black level = 16.

Bottom line: The TV's job is to potentially display all the bit-levels sent to it. How they're defined is up to the source, but you get to determine on the TV what level is displayed as "black" (SBRT and other black-level offsets, plus the Brightness slider).

Ken, thank you very much for your input. I need to investigate this a bit more. May be I will burn a PC level "blacker than black" and "video level" black (16) in a test pattern on a disc, and display it on my tv. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Thanks, anyway.
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post #1857 of 2962 Old 07-27-2006, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raaj View Post

I need to investigate this a bit more. May be I will burn a PC level "blacker than black" and "video level" black (16) in a test pattern on a disc, and display it on my tv. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I highly recommend either the AVIA or Digital Video Essentials DVD for testing. Further, you can easily build a test pattern, since the TV and graphics program likely speak the same language, bitwise. Example: If I construct a pattern in Photoshop and display it via the Memory Stick, the digital levels set in Photoshop jive with what the TV thinks these levels are. And if I extract a pattern from one of the DVDs, as a TIF file, that has specific levels of gray represented, Photoshop confirms those levels.

Your wildcard that I can't address is your computer's video card. But if it supplies 8-bit video (per color), the TV will display it correctly, according to how you have set the TV's Brightness control. Note: There's NO video level lower than digital 0. BTB is supplied from DVDs by the levels between 0 and however black really is defined, say 16. A computer program that is generating video with black = 0 has no BTB content, inherently.

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post #1858 of 2962 Old 07-29-2006, 10:59 AM
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Quick question:

What setting in what group controls the brightness of the service menu's green screen text?

I searched the thread, and couldn't find it. I know it is in here somewhere.

Thanks.
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post #1859 of 2962 Old 07-29-2006, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Something has changed, and the question is what. Has a wire come loose? Has a chip died?

If the centering and tilt, etc, are provided by physical magnetic coils separate from the main deflection coils (I don't know), their connection could have gone awry. If those geometry corrections are internally computed and added to the (still working) deflection currents (I'll put money on that), then something more subtle may have happened. In either case, it sound to me like it's a service issue. I am unaware that there's any service-mode settings that "locks out" changes to these parameters in software. I'll look at the circuit schematics to see if those functions are on a separate circuit board that may have come loose, but I doubt it. I think all deflection stuff is integrated on one board.

I agree with you. It should all be together on one board/chip. This could also account for a problem I mentioned a month ago wherin I shifted my set on it's stand and it made a quick popping move when it finally lost it's traction with the top of the stand. It could have been violent enough to break a solder connection or disconnect a wire. This was the beginning of the upward bow at the botom of my screen. I had this adjusted out with a VCEN correction, then it reappeared.
It would certainly keep the service hours down if I could pinpoint the board/chip and maybe even purchase it beforehand.

Let me know what you find and thanks for your response.

Regards,

Bryan
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post #1860 of 2962 Old 07-29-2006, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

Quick question:

What setting in what group controls the brightness of the service menu's green screen text?

I searched the thread, and couldn't find it. I know it is in here somewhere.

Thanks.

2170P-4 #31 LRGB
intensity increases with increase in numerical value
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