THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2969 Old 07-08-2005, 03:11 PM
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I have been adjusting geometry extensively lately, and one of the problems is that my ATSC-HD signal is rolling on some channels and a grey static patters on others.

Does anyone know which setting I need to correct?
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post #182 of 2969 Old 07-08-2005, 08:47 PM
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What is the service code to a KV-32FS120 please? Thanks.
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post #183 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 12:24 PM
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Not a clue, Tmansdc. However, if there aren't any other threads on that model, and noone else knows, then you could try contacting Sony, per the info in Post #165.

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post #184 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadams View Post

It seems on my set, changing any parameter in IDSW ( checking geometry, color decoding, etc for other scan rates) does something "goofy" in respect with my CORRECT color decoder values ( produces lack of green). One minute it's dead on, next, GONE. Will look into it further.

Let me clarify further. I forced a 1080i scan rate using IDSW to check color decoding for HD. Good to go. But when I returned back to 480p, green was way off. Cycled the set, 480p is back to normal. I guess nothing to get sweaty about after all.

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Originally Posted by loadams View Post

Funny thing is, with the same input, forcing the various scan rates (full, 960i, 1080i) color decoder "looks" dead on for all rates, it's just when I return to 480p it's off again. Like I said earlier, cycling the set returns the decoder to normal for 480p. Go figure.

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Originally Posted by justsc View Post

"Cycling" generally means re-cycling power. In other words, turn the set off and then on. Usually the term used is "cycling power."

I guess I'm still not entirely clear on the exact sequence of events here.

In general though, what I would probably recommend is adjusting the 2170P-4/RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB color decoders for 480i. Then if these color decoders look noticeably off with 480p/1080i, you could try to fix the 480p/1080i by using either CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN, or using the 2170P-3/UCOF sub-color controls.

The RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB color decoders cannot store two distinct values for 480i and 480p/1080i (on my TV anyway). So if there's a visible discrepancy between the two scanrates, a different set of controls must be used to correct 480p/1080i to match the 480i.

The only way I know to do that offhand is via the CXA2151/CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets or the 2170P-3/UCOF sub-color (and if necessary 2170P-3/UHOF sub-hue) controls.

If you have a newer model TV than mine, then the CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets may, as Ken points out, be found in the CXA2171 group instead of CXA2151. (It sounds like this chip/circuit may have been upgraded in some TVs newer than my 34XBR800.)

If you don't notice much difference between the color decoders for 480i and 480p/1080i, or aren't that picky, then just ignore all this.

*If you notice the change only when you switch to a different video input, then it may just be an input-related issue rather than a signal/scanrate-related issue, which is something that can generally be fixed simply by tweaking the color saturation on the inputs using either the 2170P-3/UCOF or 2170P-4/SCOL controls, as mentioned on the previous page.
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Originally Posted by justsc View Post

"Cycling" generally means re-cycling power. In other words, turn the set off and then on. Usually the term used is "cycling power."

Also, let the set warm up a bit before trying to make such discrete color decoder adjustments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

ADU mentioned some potential color adjustments in group CXA2171 #3-5/CBGN, CRGN, YGN. I experimented with these, and they appear to be “gain” controls, plain and simple, for blue and red (relative to green), and overall luminance... Absent an HD color-pattern generator or a high-quality broadcast pattern, I can't see how else to adjust this.

As mentioned above, these CBGN, CRGN, YGN offsets may only come in handy if you discover a noticeable discrepancy between 480i and 480p/1080i when adjusting your RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB color decoders.

Again, if after adjusting RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB for 480i, you discover that these color decoder settings don't work quite so well for 480p/1080i, you can probably use CBGN, CRGN, YGN (or maybe the 2170P-3/UCOF control) to correct the latter. Just use the same pattern of color bars that you did for the 480i color decoder adjustment, and tweak CBGN, CRGN, and YGN as necessary until the pattern comes back into line for the red, green, and blue guns at 480p/1080i (using 2170P-2/RGBS or the DVE filters to switch between the different color guns). That's how I'd probably go about it.

(Note: If you have an XBR960 or above, then the Advanced Video-- Default and Monitor Color Axes may give you another way of handling color decoder discrepancies between different signals/scanrates. See Posts #189 and #190 below for more.)

[Edited to reflect more recent info on the CXA2151 controls. Please see the info on the MTRX control later in the thread as well, since that will also effect these adjustments.]

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post #185 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 02:38 PM
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I worked on a XBR960 yesterday. Once the color decoder was adjusted using RYR and RYB to balance White, Yellow, Magenta and Red, then using GYR and GYB to balance White, Yellow, Cyan and Green, it was good for all inputs we tested, input 7, input 5 and ATSC for 480i, 480p, 720p(ATSC) and 1080i.

The gray scale was done first on input 1 at 480i, then, CBOF and CROF were adjusted in video 5 and video 7 to achieve the correct gray scale for each input. After the white balance calibration, a re-check of the color decoder resulted in accurate decoding in all inputs.

My initial comment, RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB should only be needed globally. It can be used to correct the color of red and green (if you have a color analyzer to measure the colors by their x/y coordinates) was not correct, while they correct the color decoding, as mentioned above, there is no change in the actual color of Red or Green. The NTSC coordinates for Red are x .335 y .340, this XBR measured x .328 y .330, slightly off in the plus blue direction.

Just another article on gamma here

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post #186 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 03:15 PM
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Cool. Thanks for the link, Glen.

Just out of curiosity, do you take your color readings with all three RGB guns active?

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post #187 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Cool. Thanks for the link, Glen.

Just out of curiosity, do you take your color readings with all three RGB guns active?

Which color readings?

I do Grayscale/White Balance with all guns active and only after Brightness, Picture/Contrast, Color and Hue are properly set. The color decoder should have no effect on grayscale. After white is set, Brightness and Contrast will need to be readjusted. (I did not take a color reading of red with all guns active)

I calibrate/adjust the decoder with the individual guns when available, it can eliminate errors in the color filters. I have 5+ different filter sets and all are slightly different. I use my Sony Broadcast Video Monitor to determine which filters are acceptable to use. With the XBR, you can input a SMPTE or other color decoder test pattern (DVD and signal generator), turn on blue only and adjust Color and Hue for each input. Then you can adjust the Red and Green portion of the color decoder for Default or Monitor color axis with red only and green only. The decoder settings are usually pretty close in the Monitor mode.

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post #188 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 05:36 PM
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Which color readings?

Good question! Not sure about that, but I think you've just told me more or less what I wanted to know.
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I do Grayscale/White Balance with all guns active and only after Brightness, Picture/Contrast, Color and Hue are properly set.

Interesting.
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The color decoder should have no effect on grayscale.

Hmm... I guess I sort of look at it the other way round since I'm adjusting grey scale by eye. Which is why I try to get all decoder-related adjustments locked down as well as possible on my TV first before attempting grey scale.
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I calibrate/adjust the decoder with the individual guns when available, it can eliminate errors in the color filters.

Also interesting.
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I have 5+ different filter sets and all are slightly different. I use my Sony Broadcast Video Monitor to determine which filters are acceptable to use.

If you don't mind me askin, which did you use for the XBR960, filters or the RGBS service menu control to isolate the red, green and blue guns?
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The decoder settings are usually pretty close in the Monitor mode.

Now you lost me again. Are you referring to the "Pro" picture mode on the Sonys, or somethin else? Cuz on my 34XBR800 the color decoder values can't be changed for the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro). They all share one set of RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB color decoder values (though there are other color and temperature variations applied to them elsewhere.)

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post #189 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 06:01 PM
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If you don't mind me askin, which did you use for the XBR960, filters or the RGBS service menu control to isolate the red, green and blue guns?

I use the isolated colors on the XBR960. Any time I can accurately eliminate the filters, I go that way. On my Mitsubishi, I adjust the colors then go into the service mode, isolate the colors and see what changes are needed, exit SM, adjust, back to SM and on and on. Can I actually see the difference, no, but I know it is calibrated/adjusted right, and that is my goal.

Quote:


Now you lost me again. Are you referring to the "Pro" picture mode on the Sonys, or somethin else? Cuz on my TV you can't change the color decoder values for the different picture modes (Vivid, Standard, Movie, Pro). They all share one set of RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB color decoder values (though there are color and temperature variations applied to them elsewhere.)

No, the XBR960 has a Monitor setting in the Advanced Video, Color Axis menu. However, when the decoder is properly set, it shouldn't matter which mode you are in. This is just an option if one cannot or doesn't know how to adjust the color decoder. If for some reason you need two decoder settings, it can be done here because the XBR960 has two memories for RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB.

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post #190 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 06:43 PM
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Huh... no such feature on the 34XBR800. So folks with a 960 (or above?) can just switch to the "Monitor" Color Axis, and their color decoders at least should be a bit more in the ballpark without tweaking 'em in the SM?

...Or perhaps if it isn't too difficult to toggle between the Default & Monitor Color Axis, that might offer another (albeit a bit clumsier) method of compensating for any potential difference in color decoding between 480i and HD signals. (Just thinking out loud here.)

[Edited to reflect more recent info on the CXA2151 controls.]

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post #191 of 2969 Old 07-09-2005, 06:45 PM
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Is there a difference in the grey scales between the Default and Monitor Color Axes, or is it strictly the color decoders that differ between them?

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post #192 of 2969 Old 07-10-2005, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Is there a difference in the grey scales between the Default and Monitor Color Axes, or is it strictly the color decoders that differ between them?

Strictly the color decoder. You can assign *any* setting of RYR-GYB to, say, "Monitor," and set different values for "Default." The 2170P-1 "Cutoff" and "Drive" adjustments for gray scale are totally independent and are global, i.e. for all inputs and modes. They can be calibrated with Color all the way off ("Min").

Note that the minor red and blue equalizing tweaks available in 2170P-1 #3 and 4/CBOF and CROF add to whatever the Cutoff adjustments are. See my article #15.

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post #193 of 2969 Old 07-10-2005, 07:45 PM
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Thanks for clarifying Ken. If/when you get a chance I wonder if you might post the values you're using for the RGB Drives/Cutoffs. I know these probably won't translate from one TV to another, but I'm just sort of curious to compare with someone else's settings, especially since you also used the Neutral Color Temp. Here's what mine are currently.

RDRV=31
GDRV=15
BDRV=21
RCUT=31
GCUT=15
BCUT=21

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post #194 of 2969 Old 07-10-2005, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptchristensen View Post

I have been adjusting geometry extensively lately, and one of the problems is that my ATSC-HD signal is rolling on some channels and a grey static patters on others.

Does anyone know which setting I need to correct?

I think I'd be afraid to suggest anything on this for fear of making matters even worse. If this began after you started working in the SM, then it might be worth the $20 to contact Sony's Non-authorized Service Support line. Or simply to have the unit serviced. It could also be an issue with your tuner, which is something I'd know nothing about since my TV doesn't have one.

The only items in the SM that come to mind for me are possibly 2170D-3/VDST, or possibly some of the settings in CXA2151 (which may be CXA2171 on the XBR960), like maybe VTC, HTC, HWID, HSEP or HMSK. I don't know exactly what any of these do though, or whether it's safe to fiddle with them. So you're on your own on that.

I suppose some of the horizontal and vertical raster adjustments in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 might put things out of sync as well. Another possible category to look at might be 2170D-5. I don't know what most of the settings in there do though either. And fiddling with stuff you don't know about could as I say make matters even worse, which is why I'd probably suggest contacting Sony instead. Sorry I can't be more help on this one.

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post #195 of 2969 Old 07-10-2005, 08:43 PM
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The major issue with the level of Drive and Cut is with the levels you want Brightness and Contrast controls set. When you reduce the Cut, Brightness settings will increase. When you increase Drive, Contrast/Picture settings will decrease. This is helpful on TVs that cannot adjust the midpoint of the user controls. For example, if Brightness was properly set at 25, then if you were to decrease the Cut settings, the brightness would need to be increased and it could be adjusted so Brightness was properly set at 31 or what ever the target or midpoint might be.

Yes, all TVs will be slightly different and room conditions can also affect settings. I have a few settings from various calibrations:

Each of the three resulted in Gray scale very close to 6500K.
RDRV= 49, 34, 45
GDRV= 39, 26, 32
BDRV= 34, 29, 22
RCUT= 42, 15, 32
GCUT= 23, 15, 22
BCUT= 16, 21, 23

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post #196 of 2969 Old 07-10-2005, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I think I'd be afraid to suggest anything on this for fear of making matters even worse. If this began after you started working in the SM, then it might be worth the $20 to contact Sony's Non-authorized Service Support line. Or simply to have the unit serviced. It could also be an issue with your tuner, which is something I'd know nothing about since my TV doesn't have one.

The only items in the SM that come to mind for me are possibly 2170D-3/VDST, or possibly some of the settings in CXA2151 (which may be CXA2171 on the XBR960), like maybe VTC, HTC, HWID, HSEP or HMSK. I don't know exactly what any of these do though, or whether it's safe to fiddle with them. So you're on your own on that.

I suppose some of the horizontal and vertical raster adjustments in 2170D-1 and 2170D-2 might put things out of sync as well. Another possible category to look at might be 2170D-5. I don't know what most of the settings in there do though either. And fiddling with stuff you don't know about could as I say make matters even worse, which is why I'd probably suggest contacting Sony instead. Sorry I can't be more help on this one.

Actually I believe it is the CXA2171 FIXS setting for ATSC 720p/1080i needs to be set at 2.

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post #197 of 2969 Old 07-10-2005, 09:08 PM
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I really have no idea, so I'll happily defer to your opinion on this.

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post #198 of 2969 Old 07-11-2005, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I really have no idea, so I'll happily defer to your opinion on this.

Thanks ADU and GLENC - CXA2171 FIXS did the trick.

Another question:

As a result of my extensive geometry corrections, the menues that are displayed when pressing "display" are off. Does any of you know which of the MID settings include the geometry settings for this menu.
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post #199 of 2969 Old 07-11-2005, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ptchristensen View Post

As a result of my extensive geometry corrections, the menues that are displayed when pressing "display" are off. Does any of you know which of the MID settings include the geometry settings for this menu.

The original Excel-spreadsheet version of the service data describes some of the auxiliary-displays and windows with codes appearing in the MID1 thru MID3 groups.

Some of the abbreviations are Index, COM, Favorites, Twin-Left, Twin-Right, etc. The last two characters of the codes are VP and HP for Vertical Position and Horizontal Position, and VS and HS apparently mean vertical and horizontal size, but it's hard to guess the first two characters: SDVP and SDHP are listed as being for the Favorites window. I don't know what "Index" means -- the memory-stick window?

I suggest you check out the service-data chart for that model. For the MID_ codes, column 3 seems to have some cryptic but useful identifications: SDHP = s_disp_hpos, DHPW = d_h_pwidth, and MDHP = m_disp_hpos, for example. Well, it's better than nothing!

You could do worse than diddle the vaues for every "-HP" or "-VP" code to see which jiggles the menus you're concerned with. MID1 #0 and 1/DHPH and DVPH are listed as "COM--Horizontal (Vertical) Position," for what it's worth.

Please post your experience with these!

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post #200 of 2969 Old 07-11-2005, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

If/when you get a chance I wonder if you might post the values you're using for the RGB Drives/Cutoffs.

SBRT = 31 (with Brightness slider set to 31)
R,G,BDRV = 41-26-21
R,G,BCUT = 32-14-16

In 2170P-3, the black-level offsets (UBOF) look like this, per input:
RF = 4, V1 (a JVC VCR) = 2, V5 (DVD player) = 0, HD tuner = 5.

I used the Drive values to guarantee an adequate "Picture" brightness for normal evening viewing of SD analog-cable broadcast with the Picture slider set to 31. The settings are for Neutral and approx 6500K. I have set Warm to +2 red and -2 blue, and Cool the reverse (with 31 being the "zero"-point of those offsets).

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post #201 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 11:48 AM
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Thanks, Ken.

I guess I should have exercised the search tool a little before asking about those values, because I see now that you already posted some of them elsewhere in thread. Though it looks like the drive/cutoff values have changed a hair since then. Are you still using 2170P-1 YOF=7, CBOF=44, and CROF=47 for the memory stick, and adding a bit of blue to the midtones with GAMB per Post #30 as well?

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post #202 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Are you still using 2170P-1 YOF=7, CBOF=44, and CROF=47 for the memory stick, and adding a bit of blue to the midtones with GAMB per Post #30 as well?

Hah! You caught me! Yes, the Obsessive Diddler has changed a few things.

I got a little smarter and tried to resolve the yellow-midtone issue *without* a different gamma for the blue gun. (The process reminds me of adjusting the intermediate-frequency coils on an old FM tuner -- you think you have one adjusted, then another one needs touching up.) My use of a higher blue gamma was a crutch, it turns out, and I have now gotten it perfectly adjusted without that. Fair warning to all!

I mentioned in another post how the color-decoder settings for MS can be fouled up by simply *being* in service mode, and I have come to realize that *one* adjustment really works for MS and video inputs. (RYR thru GYB are now set to 13-15-5-3.) [CORRECTED to 14-15-7-5 on 7/13. Sorry. Misread my own notes.]

Having recalibrated grayscale, I revisited 2170P-1/CBOF and CROF. Black for the RF tuner @ 480i seemed spot-on, so I checked out HD @ 720p and 1080i, ATSC SD, and my DVD input (V5/component). Made some small adjustments. I left YOF at defaults in all cases. So the YOF-CBOF-CROF sequences are now:

1080p and 720p = 7-52-49 (much higher CBOF)
480i Digital = 15-28-25 (lower CBOF and CROF)
Component/V5 for DVD = 15-33-25 (lower CBOF and CROF)
The memory stick apparently follows the 1080i setting.

A grumble: My lovely, expensive JVC SR-VS30 DV+SVHS deck has a noticable pink hue shift for all material, and it's a bear to compensate for. In 2170P-3 I set its input (V1/S-video) to UHOF = 3, and I still have to dial in a 2G Hue shift in the user menu. Calibration method: Displayed a precise 75% color-bar pattern at 720 X 480 on my computer and saved it in QuickTime as a zero-duration DV video file. Who knew you could do this? Then I sent that via FireWire to my JVC's FW input, and displayed it as a freeze-frame on the TV. Turns out the decoder matrix was perfect, but there was that hue shift. Now I can trust that my DV tapes from our Canon GL-2 video camera are being displayed correctly. (DV tape and FireWire share the same D/A converter.)

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post #203 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 03:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loadams View Post

I think you will want to cal composite first, using the directions from KENTECH for setting SBRT, etc. Then component, adjusting UCOF and UBOF as needed.
If you find that you've run out of UBOF (max) on while cal'ing component, you will have to compromise and raise SBRT, off course starting all over again with composite.

Thanks for the advice, I think this is better to getting the black level right since if you do it with component inputs first, like i did, the black level on the composite inputs and HDMI input was too high and smokey, yet the black level was good with component.This is when i set SBRT to component first and put UBOF at 0 like kentech said.

So i take it i had SBRT too high, it was at 24,i'm going to lower it now by calibrating composite first as you said.Also if i calibrate composite first should i leave UBOF at the default 2 or turn it 0 when calibrating composite?
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post #204 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

if you do it with component inputs first, like i did, the black level on the composite inputs and HDMI input was too high and smokey

Best to begin by doing a quick run-through of your various components' black levels, noting which is the highest. Then begin with *that* one, with UBOF at 0 and adjusting SBRT to get that one right. Then compensate the other inputs as needed by raising UBOF for them.

(UBOF, of course, is common to each input *class,* such as S-video (V1-V3), component (V5, V6) etc., and the input-video mode. If you have two 480i S-video devices that don't agree in black level, you'll have to pick the one to adjust for. I have this problem with two VCRs.)

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post #205 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 08:05 PM
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Hah! You caught me! Yes, the Obsessive Diddler has changed a few things.

FWIW, I wasn't tryin to catch nothin. Just interested in what numbers you're plugging in for comparisons sake.

I used a kind of homespun method of adjusting greyscales on my 34xbr800 as well via computer. So it's interesting to see how someone else approaches it. Judging by how Glen responded to your cloud approach, I'm sure my method (which involves various incantations and sacrifices to the HT gods) would probably have him rolling on the floor in agony. If it's all right with you though, I'll throw caution to the wind and offer just a few observations on this stuff, which may or may not be worth the cyberspacial parchment they're typed on.

Like you I also chose the Neutral color mode for the exact same reason, because it appeared to have no offsets like the other Temps.

In addition to that, however I also decided to "zero-out" (as it were) 2170P-1 YOF, CBOF, and CROF for my primary input (DVI), because I was concerned that those adjustments might also be contributing to the red and blue bias of the TV. (The color decoders I'm afraid are not the cure to all of Sony's signature color bias.) After calibrating my color decoders, I actually went through all the possible color adjustments for DVI 1080i that I could find, hunting for other potential offenders/contributors to color bias (which is how I also happened to experiment with the CXA2151 offsets). And aside from the grey scale adjustments, YOF, CBOF and CROF were the only ones that looked like potential candidates. The default values on my TV for YOF, CBOF and CROF were 7-44-41, which (everything else being equal) to my mind said-- red and blue push. So I set them to YOF=7, CBOF=31, CROF=31, and for better or worse, have left them there ever since (for 1080i DVI).

The adjunct to this story however is that I'm also using the 1080i that bypasses the DRC/MID circuits... which is why I'm sort of resistant to offering others who may not be using the same signal path much input on this subject... because I can't promise that my approach will work with the regular 1080i signal path due to the add'l processing it receives in the DRC/MID circuits. For the sake of intellectual curiosity, we'll just ignore that though for the rest of this post, and assume it don't... er, doesn't matter.

OK. So I've already done my color decoders. I've Neutralized my Color Temp and the YOF, CBOF, CROF offsets as best I know how. So what's next? Well, grey scales naturellement... which is of course the real nightmare. After reading a couple FAQs about clouds and light meters and trying a few experiments, I decide to take a leap of faith and fashion my own method since I don't have either of those things readily at hand, with the goal of simply trying to elicite the widest and subtlest range of color possible from the tube. Whether that's the same goal as the 6500k and cloud approach, I dunno at this point, but it's all I have. So I forge ahead. (Notice we've now moved into a more present tense for this bit of the flashback. Whether it's present participle, past participle or past imperfect I'm not sure though, as english was never my forte. Anyway...)

Step #1, rather than worrying about using the grey scale to control contrast, I decide instead to begin with normalized values, namely 31 across the board, and to leave the Red Drive and Cutoff at 31, and only adjust the green and blue. This may have been one the suggestions I read somewhere else, like perhaps in the grey scale section around page 6 of the GWII FAQ, or not, I don't really remember. Since it seemed to simplify things though, I go with it. Anything that simplifies is good, since I really have no idea what the **** I'm doin anyway. It seems a logical (and perhaps also providencial) way to proceed though.

This brings us to our (or rather, your) current RGB Drive/Cut settings...

41-26-21
32-14-16

...which look very untidy and unsimplified to me because the Red values aren't normalized for 31. So let's try to fix that. My math was never too good either, but if I transpose your values so the Red drive and cutoff is 31, I think that gives us around...

31-16-11
31-13-15

Still not the same as my 31-15-21, 31-15-21... but closer. Blue is still misbehaving, but the red and green relationships are now settling down, and beginning to look more within the margin of error for something being assessed purely by eye.

The first thing I notice when doing my own grey scale adjustments (and just to keep our timeline straight, this is long before your very helpful and informative SM thread came into existence) is that I'm getting very similar values for both my drives and cutoffs for a given color component. So I take another leap of faith (since I've done my best to neutralize the color bias everywhere else I can think to do so) and decide to try entering the same values for both drive and cutoff on each component and then adusting them up and down in tandem like one single control. It's just a dumb linear voltage adjustment I say to myself. And if I were a smart engineer, I probably would have implemented them that way to simplify things. During my reading for example, I ran across some TVs which didn't even have cutoff controls.

To my stunned amazement this tandem approach actually seems to work!... So now I'm like really stoked. I think I've cracked Sony's elusive color code and may actually be able to see colors on their TV that resemble something close to what the original video authors intended. So I proceed with renewed vigor and vitality to conquer my 34XBR800's greyscales...

Looking at your transposed greyscales now (which were also done via the Neutral Temp)...

31-16-11
31-13-15

...I see what seems to be a similar pattern, namely the value for the drive setting is not that different than the cutoff value for that component. They're nowhere near the wild and seemingly random grey scale values I've seen on other people's sets anyway. Again, my math ain't too good, but if you average the drive and cutoff values out (like I would have for my tandem approach), then you get:

31-15-13

Now our reds and greens are both right on the money. And at this point I feel comfortable revealing that I used an entirely different method to adjust my red and green components than yours or Glen's. For one thing, the Color was on (at the color decoder calibrated level). For another, I used a pattern of color bars. Then all I did was go into the SM and disable the blue gun with RGBS, and tweaked GDRV and GCUT together until I got the most distinct looking reds, greens, and most importantly, yellows. Yellows that did not seem to favor either red or green but which were as distinct as possible from them. This got me into the neighborhood of 15, which was then further refined after I looked for color bias in my blacks.

Back to the present... and our TVs still seem to be disagreeing on exactly what blue is. Yours says its around 13 or so, mine says around 21. Maybe our blue guns or phosphors just work differently? That's quite possible. Or maybe the discrepancy lies somewhere else. You're looking at clouds after all, while I'm busying myself (long before the fact) just looking for color differentiation. So I begin to take a closer look at the two methodologies. There must be an error in my approach I figure, so I try setting blue to 13 instead of 21... No-go. Now my whites are lookin too yellow. And other colors seem to overpower my blues. So I look elsewhere for an answer. And a few other possibilities shortly present themselves...

First (I think to myself), Ken's adding blue via his Gamma controls. Which means his greys must be lookin a bit yellowish at 13 too... I dig a little deeper and also find that by his own admission Ken's white reference is actually a bit off the ideal 6500k and probably more in the neighborhood of 6100k... A little more digging and I find Glen's chromaticity chart, which (if I'm reading it correctly) tells me that 6100k has more yellow in it than 6500k. So now I'm beginnin to suspect there's a rat, or a fly somewhere in the ointment, and maybe my 21 setting isn't that nutty after all. Ken may be trying to match a more yellowish reference to begin with (I have no white reference btw, all I'm looking for is maximum color differentiation), and also seems to be trying to compensate for excess yellow with the GAMB control. So now I'm thinkin his 13 is a little low and maybe he needs to add some more blue in there like I got, to bring his somewhat yellowish 6100k more into the neighborhood of "6500k" (whatever that is).

Then I look at his YOF, CBOF, CROF settings, and see he hasn't neutralized these the way I did. Both his red and blue are elevated compared to mine. More blue (and red) being added in. So maybe that's also why he's dialing blue back down via BDRV & BCUT. And the pieces (some of them anyway) seem to be falling into place... And yet I still don't know whether to speak up because this could all just be in my head, and bringing this stuff up might sort of offend some folks, and make people think I've got some kinna ego problem. And for all I know the MS may work differently than DVI (though I secretly sort of doubt that, since they're probably both essentially digital RGB inputs). So I vascillate briefly and then decide to post this message to see if Ken and Glen (who's names I just now notice rhyme) think old ADU is some idiot video savant, or just having some bad hallucinations brought on by the monsoonal SoCal heat.

This post dedicated to R.W. and the other southern AVSers who've hopefully made it through another nasty hurricane in one piece somewhere in the redneck Riviera.

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post #206 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 08:05 PM
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KenTech,

A while back you posted some good Memory Stick test patterns for SFP tubes. Do you have any patterns which alternate horizontal and vertical lines by 1 pixel - both in 1440x1080 and 1920x1080?
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post #207 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

You could do worse than diddle the vaues for every "-HP" or "-VP" code to see which jiggles the menus you're concerned with. MID1 #0 and 1/DHPH and DVPH are listed as "COM--Horizontal (Vertical) Position," for what it's worth.

Please post your experience with these!


Still searching for the SM settings to control the "display" menu. I found a way to move in x and y positions in the QM menu, but none to control the depth.

I do not know if the QM menu is XBR960 specific, but in the GPTN and PATN there are some great patterns and color swatches. If we just knew resolution and such it would be even greater.
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post #208 of 2969 Old 07-12-2005, 09:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Best to begin by doing a quick run-through of your various components' black levels, noting which is the highest. Then begin with *that* one, with UBOF at 0 and adjusting SBRT to get that one right. Then compensate the other inputs as needed by raising UBOF for them.

(UBOF, of course, is common to each input *class,* such as S-video (V1-V3), component (V5, V6) etc., and the input-video mode. If you have two 480i S-video devices that don't agree in black level, you'll have to pick the one to adjust for. I have this problem with two VCRs.)

Thanks for the advice, today i finally found a happy medium for black level and will leave at that!!!

I adjust ed composite first with UBOF at 0 and SBRT at 20 for all inputs, it seemed to me with the pluge patterns it looked the best and gives a lot of choices for UBOF for the other settings.

Here's what i ended up with:

Video 1-4: UBOF-0

Component1-2: UBOF-3 for 480p and 480i as well as HD 1080i and 720p.

Antenna: UBOF-0

HDMI: UBOF-0

NOw i got Perfect black level with plenty of shadow detail while still being black, that was the goal.

Thanks for making my day!
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post #209 of 2969 Old 07-13-2005, 09:27 AM
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Ken,

A couple other thoughts on this grey scale business, and then I'll shut my yap.

Other TVs may be different, but I've notice on my TV that the Gamma controls (GAMR, GAMG, GAMB) do not behave just like a simple midpoint adjustment. They also have a pronounced effect on the black level and/or contrast on each component. Consequently I'd probably be alot more hesitant to try to use them individually to make color corrections on the grey scale, because of the potential variability they might add to the color of blacks (especially given that I treat the grey scale drives and cutoff as a single control). Like I mentioned above, perhaps that's one reason why your Blue drive/cutoff settings ended up lower than mine (because GAMB was driving up the brightness/contrast of Blue elsewhere). And it might also be one of the first culprits I'd suspect in any odd behavior in the color bias of the blacks. Maybe I'm overstating the problem, but it just seems like offsetting color via gamma might add an unnecessary variable that could potentially create other difficulties down the line. (Maybe Glen has a different view on this.)

There's also the potential issue of elevated reds and blues at CROF and CBOF. And I can't help but wonder if that (in combination with some initial misadjustment due to GAMB) could be a possible source of pinkness on some of your inputs.

Re hue and color controls... AFAIK the only thing those should be used for (including the UHOF & UCOF offsets) is to tweak the adjustment of color decoding (primarily blue color decoding). If the color decoder patterns look correct on a given input, then I suspect that tinkering further with hue and color offsets won't help much. This is probably somethin you already know though.

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post #210 of 2969 Old 07-13-2005, 10:46 AM
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Okay Gents, since we are no longer in TV 101, may I ask your thoughts on setting "Blanking" and "Overscan" ?

I have a "rounded corner" in my lower left that is adjusted out with 5% overscan. Should I keep blanking consistent with overscan ( at 0% overscan) then adjust out to 5% with the sizing controls or does it really matter?
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