THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

just having some bad hallucinations brought on by the monsoonal SoCal heat.

Whare in SoCal?

Let me clear up a few points. I have nothing against DIY projects, my input on gray scale calibration was to inform about the methods and specifications used when someone pays for a calibration and or has the equipment to accurately measure color. Customers deserve the most accurate adjustment the display is capable of.

For DIY calibration, consider an optical comparator. You can use something as simple as a photo gray card (one side is 18% the other is white) and a 6500K light (possibly a 6500K LED key chain flashlight). Display a white field on the TV, from a few feet away from the TV (possibly 6), hold up the card in front of half of the screen and shine the light on it (ambient light will affect the color). The color of the TV screen should match the color of the card.

The XBR960/910 is very capable of achieving a very flat grayscale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. I have not experimented with the individual R, G & B Gamma adjustments because the Gray scales I have seen were accurate 10 IRE to 100 IRE in steps of 10. If the low end was good and the high end was good and there were errors in the middle, then possible individual gamma adjustment might correct that.

ADU,
You will get in trouble if you try to use numerical relationships in the drives and cuts to achieve a gray scale. If the CRT was perfect there would be no reason for both Drive and Cut adjustments, however being electronic components, far from NASA specs, there are variances in the components resulting in the need for both. If you choose one color for a reference, Green is usually used, then Blue and Red are adjusted to achieve the desired White balance. There are always differences in the Drive/Cut relationships for each color. With white, it is fairly easy for the eye to see if there is too much Red or Green in the white and even at 20 IRE or below, but just how much is needed is difficult. A little too much blue just looks gray, but can be way off from 6500K. Just don't error towards Green. The color analyzer can see changes in color from just one click (for example from 14 to 15). A change in Cut, will cause a change in Drive, they are totally interactive, but not on a 1 to 1 ratio. An increase in Cut of 2 does not mean you need to change Drive by 2.

Before the acquisition of my test equipment, I did DIY calibrations on my Marquee projector. When I finally got the gray scale where I thought it was good, I was happy. When I got the equipment (guess what my first test display was), I started checking. Well, much to my surprise, it was way off, especially on the low end, below 50 IRE. It was over 10000K and the upper end was better, but around 8000K. Now that it is close to 6500K at both ends, viewing is much more pleasurable and the flesh tones are the best they have ever been. Viewing TV for so many years with 10000K to 12000K gray scales makes the transition to 6500K difficult and it takes time to get use to it.

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post #212 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I've notice on my TV that the Gamma controls (GAMR, GAMG, GAMB) do not behave just like a simple midpoint adjustment. They also have a pronounced effect on the black level and/or contrast on each component.

Make sure that GAMS is zero, as well as BLK. With these conditions, my gamma settings seem to affect only the midpoint. GAMS complicates things, as do any settings that dynamically affect luminance response.
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Consequently I'd probably be alot more hesitant to try to use them individually to make color corrections on the grey scale, because of the potential variability they might add to the color of blacks (especially given that I treat the grey scale drives and cutoff as a single control).

A good caution! But I don't think this plagued me, as my black "color" remained the same after making the grayscale corrections with identical gamma settings for the three colors.
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There's also the potential issue of elevated reds and blues at CROF and CBOF. And I can't help but wonder if that (in combination with some initial misadjustment due to GAMB) could be a possible source of pinkness on some of your inputs.

No, those black-tints remained after correcting gamma and grayscale, and they were then corrected. They are listed as *offsets,* not *gains,* and that's the way they seem to behave. Because these offsets add to the ones you are calibrating when doing grayscale, you should do grayscale with Color at Min.
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Re hue and color controls... AFAIK the only thing those should be used for (including the UHOF & UBOF offsets) is to tweak the adjustment of color decoding (primarily blue color decoding).

But Hue and Color are totally different from the decoding matrix, and the sub-settings of UHOF and UCOF exactly mimic the effect of the Hue and Color sliders. "Color" is *amount* of color, and "Hue" is color-phase, rotating the colors thru the circle of red-green-yellow-cyan-blue-indigo-magenta-red, again independent of the decoding matrix. If this weren't true, then the 75% color-bar test pattern would now appear screwed up -- and it doesn't.

(Psst, ADU -- please don't quote my *entire* message, as it bloats the thread! Select just the parts that you're responding to or you need as a reference. ;-) )

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post #213 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 12:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by loadams View Post

Okay Gents, since we are no longer in TV 101, may I ask your thoughts on setting "Blanking" and "Overscan" ?

I have a "rounded corner" in my lower left that is adjusted out with 5% overscan. Should I keep blanking consistent with overscan ( at 0% overscan) then adjust out to 5% with the sizing controls or does it really matter?

I'd just leave it alone, since the overscan is going to cover it up anyways.The overscan is there for a reason.

I did'nt touch overscan at all either accept positioning the picture right.
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post #214 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ADU View Post

The default values on my TV for YOF, CBOF and CROF were 7-44-41, which (everything else being equal) to my mind said-- red and blue push. So I set them to YOF=7, CBOF=31, CROF=31, and for better or worse, have left them there ever since (for 1080i DVI).

Tackling a few points one at a time . . .

Further experiments on my part confirm that CBOF abd CROF do not contribute "push" at all and are simple offsets for red and blue, designed apparently to compensate for unintended color offsets with the various color decoders. "Push" is much more subtle than that and is really a zero-sum situation: adding red push by decreasing RYR and RYB increases red by "robbing" from or "stretching" adjacent colors on the color-wheel (hard to describe without a diagram). Colors near red are sucked toward red, and red robs from blue. Red wins, but other colors lose. In contrast, a red offset adds a constant amount of red to all displayed colors. Red "drive" adds a percentage of red to all displayed colors.

Beyond that, and out of our control, the exact red produced by the CRT's red phosphor creates a "look" for any TV, and the standard pure red, green, and blue color-coordinates defined for HDTV do *not* agree with any current CRT phosphor set.

Here's a test for setting CBOF and CROF correctly. Find a way to display dark-gray or "black" for a specific input-class. DVD thru component is easy: use DVE's "video black" screen or one of the grayscale ramps. For HD, black is displayed to the left and right of 4:3 material (e.g. commercials) and just before the statiion locks in. Raise the Brightness until "black" is visible as a noticable screen glow. Whatever that "black" looks like should look exactly the same with the Color control set to Min and set to Max. If the color drifts toward blue as Color is increased, CBOF is too high, for example.

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post #215 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Further experiments on my part confirm that CBOF and CROF do not contribute "push" at all and are simple offsets for red and blue

I agree

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

designed apparently to compensate for unintended color offsets with the various color decoders.

I disagree, it deals with the White Balance, not the color decoder.

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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Here's a test for setting CBOF and CROF correctly. Find a way to display dark-gray or "black" for a specific input-class. DVD thru component is easy: use DVE's "video black" screen or one of the grayscale ramps. For HD, black is displayed to the left and right of 4:3 material (e.g. commercials) and just before the statiion locks in. Raise the Brightness until "black" is visible as a noticable screen glow. Whatever that "black" looks like should look exactly the same with the Color control set to Min and set to Max. If the color drifts toward blue as Color is increased, CBOF is too high, for example.

I see this a little different. By the book, and this makes sense,
  • White Balance is to be set in Neutral color temp, 480i, Video Input 1, CBOF and CROF both set at 31.
    • WB is set in Neutral" because R, G & B DRV & CUT change the Neutral Color Temp.
    • Cool and Warm are then set by the R,G & B DOF & COF.
  • Next, using CBOF and CROF, the White Balance is corrected in each of the other inputs, V5&6, HDMI and MS/ATSC, for each scan rate, 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i.
    • This method allows for White Balance calibration for each input and each scan rate.
I get more and more impressed with this TV as I learn and understand more of its capabilities.

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post #216 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

I disagree, it deals with the White Balance, not the color decoder.

Only in the sense that the cutoffs for red, green, and blue "deal with" white balance. A lot of things affect white balance, but that doesn't explain very much nor point the way to an adjustment method.

The CBOF and CROF adjustments occur *before* the Color control, and their effects cannot be seen if Color is at Min (off). A simple experiment easily confirms this. The only thing that makes sense is to adjust the three-color drives and cutoffs with Color at Min so *that* part of the chain is calibrated. Now you can introduce color to the mix, and make further corrections as needed. I'll stick by the method I outlined as one way of doing it without instruments.

Setting "white balance" with a parameter that is affected by the Color slider makes no sense at all! White balance should be a characteristic of the display *independent* of the presence of any color in the video.

The method you say is "by the book" should specify Color to be at Min, and leave CROF and CBOF alone initially. Service-data defaults will do fine. Then follow the steps you listed for the drive and cutuff adjustments. Next, follow my method (using a suitable test generator) to establish what red or blue offset might exist for those inputs, and zero out those offsets with CROF amd CBOF.

You're not *setting* white balance with CBOF and CROF; you are *cancelling* nuisance color offsets introduced somehow before the Color control.

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post #217 of 2973 Old 07-13-2005, 11:18 PM
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Ken, I know you do not have the color analyzer to test this, but it works. I can actually measure the changes. When you adjust White to 6500K in input 1 (S-Video) with CBOF & CROF set to default 31, then go to say Video 5 and input a 1080i signal with a white field or 480p with a DVD then measure the temp, it probably will not be 6500K as V1/480i is. Using CBOF & CROF, you can fine tune V5/1080i/480p to 6500K. It works, I have done it and my color analyzer can detect differences of 1 or 2 in the settings. With a true white signal input, the Color setting should have no effect on the white field. If you do, there are other issues. The only function of the color slider is to set saturation. White levels change by input and scan rate because of the video signal processing in the different circuits based upon different bandwidth signals and processing circuits. The resulting signal/voltage for R, G, & B will/can have slightly different values. Gray scale tracking has already been set with Cut and Drive in V1/480i, now it is only the R, G, & B balances that needs adjusting for the different input options. This is why they only give adjustment for R & B. Once the Color Decoder is set, only saturation and hue need adjusting for the different input devices. This is why a DVD test disk is used with the DVD, an ATSC test generator through the ATSC devices (cable boxed don't have this option, hopefully access to the HDNET test pattern is an option).

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post #218 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

but it works. I can actually measure the changes.

You *could* do it that way, but the methodology is fundamentally flawed. You are producing a TV that is *conditionally* calibrated: Once grayscale/whote balance is set up per your method, the Color slider can't be touched. The reason? By leaving the Color set to anything but zero, you are mixing the (a) input-dependent color offsets from whatever input you start with, with its possibly inaccurate default CBOF and CROF settings; and (b) the color offsets inherent in the processing that drives the CRT *after* the Color control, which are inherently *global.*

Note that you're probably stuck doing it this way if you are working with a TV that has no way of turning color all the way off; it would be the best you can do. If that's the ISF training you received, then that's its purpose but at the expense of sets that *do* have a color control that can be set to zero and whose grayscale calibration could be universally calibrated by a more-sophisticated method that takes this into account. Your training should have explained the second method, as I described, to be used wherever it can be applied (and with your instruments and pattern generators).

Bottom line: These Sony sets we are discussing respond favorably to a more rigorous calibration method that guarantees correct white balance and gray scale *independent* of the Color control, and if your ISF training didn't point this out, then it falls short.

Technical tangent: From an engineer's perspective, it's a classic gain-and-offset problem: Two amplifiers, each with gain and offset adjustments, are separated by a volume control. How do you zero-out the offsets? Easy. Set the volume control (here, the Color slider) all the way to zero, and adjust the second amplifier for zero offset. Then crank up the volume control and adjust the first amplifier the same way. Done. Any other methodology confounds the offsets from the first and second amplifiers in a way so you can never get it right, except by accident. This symbolic/schematic problem has an accurate analogy in the color-processing signal path in these TVs, adding only an input-selector switch ahead of the Color control.

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post #219 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 02:15 PM
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Ken, You are missing something here or misunderstanding what I am saying.

As it pertains to relation of the color slider and white balance. The color slider should only change saturation, nothing more. Once you have your White Balance set, the color of white should not change with movement of the color slider.

ISF training is directed towards the standards and what we should be seeing. What really counts with a calibration is what we actually see when finished, maximizing the viewing experience. Many times the settings differ from the manufactures service settings and methods. All TVs are not created equal, however, the goal we try to achieve is the same for all. Do all calibrate to that goal, no, but we get as close as we can with each different situation.

Let's take your approach:
  • If you need to adjust CROF or CBOF because the color changes a little when the slider is set to MAX, then you adjust the color temp so white is uniform from Min to Max on the slider. Right?
Now my method:
  • Having previously set the color temp to 6500K, I go to a different input, adjust the Picture, Brightness, Color and Hue sliders to proper settings and measure the color of White. It needs some adjustment, say it was 6450K, I then adjust CROF and CBOF accordingly to get to 6500K at the proper viewing settings. Now I have a properly adjusted input that is displaying an accurate image. If the color slider needs to be changed, because of broadcast variances, there should be no change in white balance. Right?
Since the settings that will be used during viewing are the most important, I make sure those are the most accurate, therefore adjust with the color slider set for viewing, not max. I would rather see errors with the slider at max than at viewing settings. If calibrating with the slider at max yields a uniform gray scale, then with the accuracy of the color analyzer, adjustment with slider set at viewing setting would yield the same results. One thing I have never seen in a consumer TV service manual is reference to using any type of color analyzer to set color temp. Very few, if any TV repair technicians have a color analyzer.

While we are in this area, an additional offset that can be adjusted by input is YOF, this will adjust any luminance variances by input. A meter able to accurately measure the screen luminance is needed if adjustment is desired. YOF, CROF and CBOF are input/scan rate offsets for luminance and chroma signal variances in input devices. No two devices will be absolutely the same.

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post #220 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

As it pertains to relation of the color slider and white balance. The color slider should only change saturation, nothing more. Once you have your White Balance set, the color of white should not change with movement of the color slider.

We absolutely agree on this. It changes the saturation of whatever color that comes to it. That includes (a) the video-signal's color *and* (b) whatever garbage colors are being generated by the input amplifiers & decoders. (I assure you, I understand the method you are using.)
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Having previously set the color temp to 6500K, I go to a different input, adjust the Picture, Brightness, Color and Hue sliders to proper settings and measure the color of White. It needs some adjustment, say it was 6450K, I then adjust CROF and CBOF accordingly to get to 6500K at the proper viewing settings. Now I have a properly adjusted input that is displaying an accurate image.

No, you have a conditionally adjusted complete signal path, which is a different matter.
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If the color slider needs to be changed, because of broadcast variances, there should be no change in white balance. Right?

Wrong, because you haven't used a method that guarantees that. What if that input is *generating* some color because of its nuisance offsets? The problem is with that *first* calibrated input.

Example: Let's suppose that input has some color offset, say +10 blue and -5 red. (You have no guarantee that any input has no offset.) You adjust the color balance exactly to 6500K and a linear grayscale with the Color slider in its normal position (31). CROF and CBOF are at their no-effect points (31 each), so they don't affect the offset. That color offset is passed on, through the Color control, to the drive-and-cutoff adjustment stage, where you presumably compensate for it, right? (Let's make the "units" of adjustment the same for now.) So you have set the three colors of cutoff and drive to compensate not only for (a) that TV's particular late-stage RGB-video amplifiers and CRT that are there, but also for (b) the +10 blue and -5 red offsets as well.

Now you play/tune-in a lovely B/W movie with no color content on that input. It looks perfect. But what happens if you turn the Color (saturation) down all the way? Even though the movie has no color, the input circuit offsets (+10 blue and -5 red) are still there, and I have just reduced them to zero saturation by turning the saturation to zero, isolating them from those later stages that you have calibrated -- except that those adjustments *subtracted* 10 blue and *added* 5 red to cancel out the offsets, and now there are no offsets.

Thus the color of the movie will change -- with the darkest tones now showing -10 red and +5 blue color casts or tints. That's a color shift with a change in the Color slider-setting, and your grayscale linearity and 6500K are out the window.

If, on the other hand, you had previously discovered those nuisance offsets for that input, you could have compensated for them up-front, which is what CBOF and CROF are for! You would set CBOF to 31-10=21, and CROF to 31+5=36. Now no color offsets are passed to the Color control; and if you now calibrate RDRV thru BCUT for 6500K etc., you have a calibration independent of the Color control, and changing it will not affect the picture's appearance one bit.

Whether you adjust the input offsets first is your choice, but if you adjust the drives and cutoffs first, which is my preference, you can then *forget about that adjustment.* You've got your perfect 6500K and grayscale. You just turn color down to zero, and proceed. *Now* you can adjust the inputs' nuisance offsets a *subordinate* task which it inherently is. Very clean and straightforward.

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post #221 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 07:40 PM
 
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What i don't get about you kentech is how you accuse glen of being wrong when he's an ISF calibrator

It's just funny, that's all.

I know your an engineer, but an ISF guy knows just as much as well, if not even more than you.
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post #222 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 07:54 PM
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Ken, you are getting lost in all of this and making you calibrations much more difficult than they need to be.

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If, on the other hand, you had previously discovered those nuisance offsets for that input, you could have compensated for them up-front, which is what CBOF and CROF are for! You would set CBOF to 31-10=21, and CROF to 31+5=36. Now no color offsets are passed to the Color control; and if you now calibrate RDRV thru BCUT for 6500K etc., you have a calibration independent of the Color control, and changing it will not affect the picture's appearance one bit.

Totally wrong. Where do you get your reference to measure the needed offset?

Please think about this:
  1. xDRV & xCUT only change in one place, the global Neutral color temp. It does affect Cool and Warm because it is the reference point for offsets.
  2. xDOF & xCOF change the Cool and Warm color temp by offset from Neutral.
  3. The input with the least amount of control over luminance and chroma is 480i, composite or S-Video.
  4. Before any color temp calibration on any input, the user controls for Picture, Brightness, Color, Hue and Sharpness as well as edge enhancement and color decoder should be properly set.
Here is my color calibration procedure:
  1. Connect to an input with 480i and test pattern, white window or white field. (lets say a test DVD with DVD player Video 1, set at 480i S-Video)
  2. Verify that CBOF & CROF are both set at 31.
  3. Adjust xDRV & xCUT, going back and forth between low IRE and High IRE windows until you have a uniform gray scale from 10 IRE to 100 IRE. (No plus green errors at any step)
  4. Save settings.
  5. Change DVD player to 480p. (DVD player connected to Video 5, Component)
  6. Do item d. from above (and #2 if desired).
  7. Display a 50 IRE white window and check the color temp.
  8. Adjust CBOF & CROF to achieve 6500K. Move color slider to see that there is no color change.
  9. Save settings. Recheck all user control settings (P, B, C & H)
  10. Repeat 6 -9 with DVD set to 480i and 1080i (if available)
  11. Now lets change to another input, say the ATSC input.
  12. Input an ATSC 1080i signal test pattern.
  13. Repeat steps 6 - 9 with the ATSC signals 480i, 480p and 720p.
  14. Change to an ATSC 720p signal test pattern.
  15. Repeat steps 6 - 9.
At this point, we have all of the RF, Composite and S-Video inputs set to 6500K with CBOF and CROF set at 31 (there are no separate offsets for these). We have also calibrated Video 5 with the DVD player for 480i, 480p and 1080i and the ATSC input for 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i to 6500K by adjusting CBOF and CROF for each of the seven configurations.

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post #223 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

What i don't get about you kentech is how you accuse glen of being wrong when he's an ISF calibrator

It's just funny, that's all.

I know your an engineer, but an ISF guy knows just as much as well, if not even more than you.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions. Wrong can mean it is not done a certain way or that it can't be done. From my experiences, Engineers, generally work in a single direction and because of time and money constraints. Having had to operate that way can tend to train one to see only one solution to a problem. I have not met Ken, and he has done a great job with this TV and helping us understand its capabilities. He says his method is better, I say mine works, who's right? That can only be determined by controlled testing and in the end they may both be wrong.or right or one or the other. The information provided here should be studied and thoroughly evaluated before any judgment calls are made. We are here to enhance our understanding, not prove anyone right or wrong. I just hope I can help lead anyone in the right direction or help avoid mistakes that can be costly.

Just because I am ISF certified, doesn't mean I know it all. I am in a constant state of learning. Intellectual discussions are one of the great features of forums, discounting the few that have nothing good to say about anything.


From Short Circuit, Number Five need input.input

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post #224 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CrocHunter View Post

What i don't get about you kentech is how you accuse glen of being wrong when he's an ISF calibrator

It's just funny, that's all.

I know your an engineer, but an ISF guy knows just as much as well, if not even more than you.

Croc-

I see you're just teasing here - that's cool.

I am very, very impressed with the back and forth between KenTech and GlenC. These guys have alot to offer us all. KenTech with his clear depth of knowledge of the SFP tube sets, and Sony service codes in gereral, and GlenC with his obviously extensive ISF knowledge and training.

What I appreciate most is that both of these guys have the best interests of the user/viewer at heart. I am saving all of this to review again and again as I grow in the knowledge of my Sony set.

KenTech & GlenC: Thanks for all the info you're offering. I see some fundamental differences in how each of you is approaching some of the discussed adjustments, and that gives me choices in my own efforts.

Cheers!
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post #225 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 08:35 PM
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Justsc, thanks

Ken,

Since I don't have a XBR here to play with:
Can you go to anyone of your inputs, zero the color slider, then go to CBOF and make up and down changes, the picture should go plus/minus blue. Does it?

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post #226 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Ken, you are getting lost in all of this and making your calibrations much more difficult than they need to be.

They're quite easy for me, conceptually and in practice. I'm not bound by blind faith in ISF training, which has several specific purposes, not just the end result with the TV. You haven't made *any* logical counterargument for any of the points I've made. We will both achieve calibrated sets. But the error is exactly in the following statement:

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The input with the least amount of control over luminance and chroma is 480i, composite or S-Video.

Nope. Or maybe. But you can guarantee that *any* input has *NO* control over luminance and chroma by simply turning Color all the way off. Then use whatever input you like to set up the basic xDRV and xCUT for perfect 6500K and grayscale. This way anybody reading this with a DVD player and the DVE disk can set up white balance without worrying about which input has the least contamination. You have to rely on a specialized S-video pattern generator and *hope* there are no offsets in the equipment or input.

That's our difference in a nutshell. You have not logically pointed up any flaws with this, and I have verified this procedure with perfect results. Restating your method adds nothing new, as I completely understand it. If the S-video input has *zero* offset, you will achieve the correct settings of xDRV and xCUT you seek, no question. But if you turn down the Color, you will *guarantee* it whether S-video, or any other, input has been used. I've made my case and proved it in practice. I have no ISF training to defend nor sacred cows to protect, so I have little else to say on this matter. Other folks will have to chime in on this, if this hasn't become too arcane. The arguments have to be judged on their merits and logic, and I think they have been stated clearly by both of us.

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post #227 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 10:08 PM
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I'm trying out a lot of different menues as I'm trying to fix my remaining geometry problems on my 34XBR960.

Here is an interesting one: QM, WUSR and RUSR

When WUSR is activated by moving from 0 to 1, and a memory card is in the TV the following files are written to the memory card.

User Default File
User Current File
Service Default File
Service Current File

When RUSR is activated the values are read back to the NMW (Whatever that is)

Could someone with a "geometry virginal" XBR 960 please do the WUSR and post the 4 values. I might be able to get at better starting point for fixing the geometry.

Here is the "Service Default File" (I changed the extension .SD to .txt to prevent problems with security programs)

I couldn't find a program that can read the files

 

SONYDTVD.txt 0.0263671875k . file
Attached Files
File Type: txt SONYDTVD.txt (27 Bytes, 14 views)
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post #228 of 2973 Old 07-14-2005, 11:22 PM
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I'm not bound by blind faith in ISF training, which has several specific purposes, not just the end result with the TV.

Can you prove this statement or back it up with facts, or is this just a statement without merit? I assume you have been through ISF Training to qualify yourself to make such a statement. You have no clue as to my approach and goal, but you can be sure that the ultimate goal on any of my calibrations is to achieve optimal results for that display, to the best of my abilities. Even if a 3 hour calibration takes me 6 hours, and they have (standard calibrations have fixed prices, not hourly).

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You haven't made *any* logical counterargument for any of the points I've made.

Are you not reading my posts or just don't want to consider the process.?

Here is a logical counterargument:
How can you possibly determine any type of required input offset without some starting reference point? By your method, you can only calibrate one input at one scan rate. I say this because you seem to think you adjust offset (CROF & CBOF) first, then adjust the color temp with xCUT & xDRV. If cut and drive are global, how will you be able to calibrate another input with your method? Read through my calibration steps above. If you think it is wrong, describe your method for calibrating the same number of inputs and scan rates.

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You have to rely on a specialized S-video pattern generator

I don't see what is so specialized about Avia or DVE and the S-Video output from any DVD player.

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and *hope* there are no offsets in the equipment or input.

This doesn't really matter, because you will have calibrated to that piece of equipment and the test DVDs are very close to a pure B&W signal. In theory, by my method, you could calibrate different inputs to different color temps, just by changing CROF & CBOF. Wait, this is why the offsets work this way, after the one initial calibration of Neutral Color Temp with drive and cut. Not before.
Additionally, if the offsets are in the input devices, then why are the only factory 31/31 offsets in 480i?

The reason I say to use the S-Video first is because the defaults in all of the 480i inputs for CROF & CBOF is 31. When properly calibrated, all of the other inputs and scan rates should be close. Additionally, almost everyone has a DVD player with S-Video. Not all have component and or DVI/HDMI.

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You have not logically pointed up any flaws with this,

The entire explanation of my procedure points out the flaw in your method. Don't get me wrong, you could get one input calibrated by your method, but it does not carry over to calibrating other inputs.

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and I have verified this procedure with perfect results.

Perfect, I think not, "acceptable to your eye only", yes, I would agree. For all we know you could have 9000K at 20 IRE and 7000K at 100 IRE. I have measured my method and have achieved results from three different inputs with two or three different scan rates. All were very uniform at 6500K +/- 50K in 10 IRE intervals. None of us can achieve perfect results no matter what methods we use. The TVs have more variances than that.

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post #229 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 02:28 AM
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Glen & Ken,

Thanks for the replies on my experimental tandem/differentiation approach. I wish there'd been time to respond to more of them today, but I need some time to digest some more of this. Allotta good info/opinions here to consider. I'm gonna take Glen's suggestion re the photo grey card and LED though and see how that works. That sounds like the best way for now to check if my rather whacky experimental system is putting me anywhere near 6500k.

Also, if the CBOF and CROF offsets are already in the ballpark for most inputs, as Glen suggests, then changing DVI to 31 from the defaults (as I've done) probably would not be the best way for others to proceed if they're looking to ballpark the greyscales of multiple inputs by calibrating via Video 1, or one of the other analog inputs. Leaving CBOF and CROF at their defaults may be better at least as a starting point. It probably matters less on my TV though since DVI is the only input I use.

I'm really more concerned about the potential effect that CBOF and CROF may have on the slope of the red and blue drives/cutoffs for DVI. If these offsets only adjust the cutoff points, then that means they are probably altering the slope of the grey scale on each component relative to others which would not be a good thing for my tandem drive/cutoff approach. I assumed that neutralizing them to 7-31-31 would give me the best shot at acheiving a uniform slope on each component. But now I'm less sure. Perhaps the original defaults were closer. If there is a way to adjust the grey scales on my TV fairly accurately (and I sort of feel in my bones that there is) using the same values for both drive and cutoff, and perhaps also without any kind of white reference (which I know sounds a bit far-fatched), then I'd kind of like to figure it out, because it might simplify things alot. It looks like I'll need some kind of 6500k reference to verify this though. Maybe the photo card/LED will do the trick.

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post #230 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Are you not reading my posts or just don't want to consider the process.?

Not rocket science, Glen. Because I don't agree, you claim I don't understand. I do. And I don't agree.
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Here is a logical counterargument:
How can you possibly determine any type of required input offset without some starting reference point? By your method, you can only calibrate one input at one scan rate.

To the contrary, by turning the Color slider down to zero, you can use *any* input to adjust white balance and grayscale because you are guaranteeing that NO errant color has been introduced up to that point. The service-mode settings for WB/grayscale are global, not input-specific, and they exist in only one place: the SBRT, xDRV, and xCUT settings. Having gotten this right, you can now turn Color up again and use the input-class-specific settings of CBOF and CROF, plus the adjustments in 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, to fix any offsets that exist at those inputs by whatever method. Clear and simple.
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The entire explanation of my procedure points out the flaw in your method.

Sorry, repetition ("Look, look, mine *is* better than yours") is not counterargument.
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Perfect, I think not, "acceptable to your eye only", yes, I would agree.

And for what other purpose is this entertainment device being adjusted? The fiction that 6500K *exactly* is all that is acceptable is sheer nonsense! Heaven help the poor chap whose set is not exactly 6500K, and the neigbors find out. Think of the ridicule and finger-pointing! If the white point on my set is 6341K and whites appear white, it is perfect. Such small deviations from the industry-standard do not affect the perception of colors to any significant degree -- the rather adaptive eye/brain combination sees to that, and the variations among real-world program sources swamp small deviations completely. In my business, I have calibrated numerous color monitors for graphic artists involved in color pre-press. That is a critical application. Watching CSI/Miami, the evening news, Gladiator? I think not! Perspective, folks, perspective.

Glen, if you want to discuss/defend the business of ISF calibration, start another thread. This thread is to help folks understand the effects of the myriad service-menu codes and how adventuresome folks might adjust them to improve their sets and fix problems. Those who simply want someone to come out and calibrate everything and don't particularly want to get their hands dirty or clutter their brain (don't start!) with niggling details, will look for a local ISF tech to do the job. I don't do my own brake jobs anymore, either. One trades $$ for trouble. ISF calibration, its training, the required equipment investment -- all consitute a potentially profitable business with an up-front investment whose practicing individuals charge dearly for their work. For the folks who need it, the results are likely fabulous! But it's a business, Glen, not a religion.

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post #231 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 11:42 AM
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ADU, there is no need for uniformity between drive and cut. Cut sets where black level is achieved and drive sets the white. If you reduce the cut settings, you are reducing the light output on the low end for a given Brightness setting. If you had to reduce BCUT & RCUT to get to 6500K at 20 IRE, the result would be a reduction in light output of red and blue and now you would need to adjust Brightness to compensate. Black is black and white is white and there is one optimal setting for Picture and Brightness (for any one viewing condition). If you decrease the overall light output with xCUT, Brightness usually needs to increase same with xDRV and Picture. IMO, it would make sense to set xCUT and xDRV to achieve the desired color temperature with normalized Brightness and Picture settings.

Quote:
Also, if the CBOF and CROF offsets are already in the ballpark for most inputs, as Glen suggests, then changing DVI to 31 from the defaults (as I've done) probably would not be the best way for others to proceed if they're looking to ballpark the greyscales of multiple inputs by calibrating via Video 1, or one of the other analog inputs. Leaving CBOF and CROF at their defaults may be better at least as a starting point. It probably matters less on my TV though since DVI is the only input I use.

This is true, however if you have changed the V7/DVI offsets to 31, I am assuming it was done in 1080i. If this is the case, then change the resolution to 480i and/or 480p and see what the colors look like. Since the default for 1080i is CROF=45 and CBOF=47 and 480p is CROF=42 and CBOF=41 calibrating 1080i at 31/31 should yield an error with the default in 480p the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. As far as 480i, default CROF/CBOF=31 and again the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. I would appreciate your checking this and reporting back with your findings.

Quote:
I'm really more concerned about the potential effect that CBOF and CROF may have on the slope of the red and blue drives/cutoffs for DVI. If these offsets only adjust the cutoff points, then that means they are probably altering the slope of the grey scale on each component relative to others

This has nothing to do with slope (I assume you mean the Gamma curve). These offsets will only affect the amount of blue and red in the white signal to get you back to your desired calibrated temperature individually on each input for each resolution.

This is a really cool feature in this Sony, there are not many TVs that allow color temperature calibration for each input and scan rate. My Mitsubishi 65813 has three (480i, 480p & 1080i) separate calibration settings for High and Low color temp (Mid is an internal average of the two).

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post #232 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 12:04 PM
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Ken,

Maybe I'm just falling into Glen's evil trap but I don't think he has much to gain personally or financially by championing ~6500k as your optimum target, and suggesting other ways of referencing this like photo cards/LEDs. I think we all know that Glen's in this as a business, and can interpret his remarks accordingly. It's helpful to hear different informed viewpoints though. And because the blacks on these TVs tend to get easily muddied by other issues, I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.

Re the grey scales issues currently on the table, I can see legitimate arguments on both sides of the color question. I think all Glen is really saying here is that the way the Sonys are configured out of the box, it may be easier to initially ballpark the grey scales for all inputs by performing the grey scale calibration with the Color on as opposed to off (with CROF and CBOF left at their defaults). Since he's calibrated more TV's than I have, I'm prepared to accept that on his word for the moment. And it's probably something that informed DIYers can try and judge for themselves.

Your approach may work equally as well though Ken, if you're already resigned to adjusting the CBOF and CROF offsets for every input you're using. Maybe I'm not completely grasping all the subtleties of the arguments you're both making, but so far that's really about the only difference I can see between your two approaches.
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

Having gotten this right, you can now turn Color up again and use the input-class-specific settings of CBOF and CROF, plus the adjustments in 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, to fix any offsets that exist at those inputs by whatever method.

The first part of this I agree with, however if you're suggesting that you can tweak the grey scales via UCOF and UHOF, then I disagree. IMO, those particular 2170P-3 parameters should generally only be used to adjust differences between the color decoders on each input/signal.

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post #233 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

If, on the other hand, you had previously discovered those nuisance offsets for that input, you could have compensated for them up-front, which is what CBOF and CROF are for! You would set CBOF to 31-10=21, and CROF to 31+5=36. Now no color offsets are passed to the Color control; and if you now calibrate RDRV thru BCUT for 6500K etc., you have a calibration independent of the Color control.

The service-mode settings for WB/grayscale are global, not input-specific, and they exist in only one place: the SBRT, xDRV, and xCUT settings. Having gotten this right, you can now turn Color up again and use the input-class-specific settings of CBOF and CROF, plus the adjustments in 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, to fix any offsets that exist at those inputs by whatever method. Clear and simple.

First you say set CROF and CBOF then calibrate RDRV thru BCUT..then you say once you have RDRV thru BCUT set, you adjust CBOF and CROF while acknowledging they exist in only one place: the SBRT, xDRV, and xCUT settings. This is what has been confusing.

I haven't experimented with 2170P-3/UBOF thru UHOF, I am assuming they will offset or allow adjustment of/for various effects in the different modes, Vivid, Pro

As for ISF business, I have probably contributed too much here in detailed procedures that it could impact potential business.

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post #234 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

And because the blacks on these TVs tend to get easily muddied by other issues, I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.

Don't get confused here, 6500K is only the color of white needed to properly reproduce film based media like movies. Color temp calibration will deal with the color of Black, but shadow detail is dependant on Brightness, Sharpness and other settings being properly set.

As far as 6500K, yes it is a desired industry target.
Can it be perfectly achieved from 10 IRE to 100 IRE? No.
Is getting as close as possible a calibration goal? Yes.
If I can't get to 6500K, my goal is to have no +Green error and being +Blue is better than +Red. This means that a calibration has no +Green and color temp ranges from about 6400K and up. I would rather see one go from 6400K to 7000K than 6100K to 6700K. Red and Green are much more visible than Blue.

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post #235 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

First you say set CROF and CBOF then calibrate RDRV thru BCUT

No, no, no! Please point out where I might have said that! I say this: Turn down Color, calibrate WB and grayscale, *then* turn up Color and adjust CROF and CBOF. That's the only order that makes sense to me, since the starategy is to (1) adjust the global settings, then (2) adjust the input-mode-specific settings. Without having done (1), (2) makes no sense!

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post #236 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

if you have changed the V7/DVI offsets to 31, I am assuming it was done in 1080i. If this is the case, then change the resolution to 480i and/or 480p and see what the colors look like. Since the default for 1080i is CROF=45 and CBOF=47 and 480p is CROF=42 and CBOF=41 calibrating 1080i at 31/31 should yield an error with the default in 480p the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. As far as 480i, default CROF/CBOF=31 and again the picture should be noticeably plus blue and red. I would appreciate your checking this and reporting back with your findings.

The quick answer is yes, the color does seem to go a bit to hell on the other inputs/signals. Since I'm only using the DVI input though (@1080i/540p), it doesn't really matter to me.

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post #237 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

Justsc, thanks

Ken,

Since I don't have a XBR here to play with:
Can you go to anyone of your inputs, zero the color slider, then go to CBOF and make up and down changes, the picture should go plus/minus blue. Does it?

No, not in the slightest. That is why, in my *schematic* model of how the color processing works, I say that the CROF and CBOF offset adjustments come *before* the Color control. If one cranks Color up to Max, CBOF and CROF adjustments are easily seen on-screen. Set Color to Min, and no effect can be noted.

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post #238 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

No, no, no! Please point out where I might have said that! I say this: Turn down Color, calibrate WB and grayscale, *then* turn up Color and adjust CROF and CBOF. That's the only order that makes sense to me, since the starategy is to (1) adjust the global settings, then (2) adjust the input-mode-specific settings. Without having done (1), (2) makes no sense!

You said/implied that in Post #220, next-to-last paragraph.

Now, you have just described my method. Set global color temp then adjust each input/scan rate in use. The only exception is my starting with 480i because all of the 480i offsets are preset at 31/31. There shouldn't be any color changes in Black - White with color slider movement. If an input is driving R, G, or B differently than the one the global calibration is done on, setting the slider to max should help show the difference.

IMO, reviewing the factory defaults, it appears that their intent is to calibrate using 480i because the TV must decompress/split/process the signal to extract color from luminance, therefore all 480i RGB signals to the tube should be the same. When you input component/DVI/HDMI, the TV has no control over the input signal therefore the need for different offset settings to balance the color temp.

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post #239 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 02:34 PM
 
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I think this thread is starting to get out of hand.At first it was about helpful service menu codes, but now it's a bickering of i'm right and your wrong.

I appreciate all the contribution to this thread, with all the different ways we can tweak our sony sets, but some of the things you are revealing in your discoverys is a bit too much, if that's the right word for it.

I mean it's almost like you are redoing your whole entire set, like making a new tv yourself when in fact most of the factory settings are just fine.You don't want to screw with too much stuff or some stuff will affect other inputs and resolutions and make them out of wack.

An example is overscan, if you lower it even more you will start to see flaws in broadcast material, and you will see things with VHS tapes that should'nt be there in the corners.Not to mention it helps in hiding geometry errors, and if you lower it too much letterboxed material will be much smaller and the black bars above and below would get bigger while the image gets smaller.

Anyways though you have been both very helpfull in helping me with my tweaks.

And i appreciate your brave discoveries, in which some codes i just don't have the guts to do bymyself without the proper equipment to measure it right like color temp and greyscale.
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post #240 of 2973 Old 07-15-2005, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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You said/implied that in Post #220, next-to-last paragraph.

I get the implication, sorry. No, that's not a recommended *method.* It's just a way of thinking about it. Sorry if I stated it poorly.

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