Reddish Faces on Sony KV-30HS420 - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick2003
Thanks Justsc, Where abouts did you mount it?
I mounted it on the wall directly behind my set. It reflects against the wall.

They provide a mounting kit with self-stick velcro and screws with drywall anchors included. A buddy of mine used the velcro to attach it to the backside of his 45" LCD panel, which reflects on the wall behind it.
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post #92 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 03:49 PM
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Thanks Justsc, Did you mount it towards the middle of the back or above the tv's back? How much does it light up around the tv? Seems like it would be pretty hard to light alot of area with a big CRT. I think you probably missed my other question cause i edited my reply:

Do you need any other lights on in the room with that on?

Thanks again.
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post #93 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:00 PM
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Are the settings listed on Page One of this thread, once made, global? (affecting all inputs when using the particular color mode they were saved in, i.e., Vivid, Standard, Pro) Or do they have to be repeated for each input?

Thanks in advance!
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post #94 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:03 PM
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The color settings are global i beleave, not 100% sure though, But use the settings i just posted a couple minutes ago not the old ones.
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post #95 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:05 PM
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JustSC - I suffer from some kind of pain in the muscles behind my eyes when the sharpness settings are too high. For example, if I have the VM settings in the SM turned on, with MIDES added, then the screen just hurts the hell out of my entire forehead. If I have the screen looking like this, it looks fanstastic, but the second I relax my eyes, I can literally feel a profound throbbing in my eye muscles. The real culprits are the VM values, which i have learned to ALWAYS keep on zero.

I have NEVER had a problem in a movie theater, nor do I have a problem watching the newer LCOS or DLP screens. Many have said that high contrast leads to eye strain, but this isn't what my issue is.

Right now, I don't have much of a problem in regards to eyestrain with my display. It's because there is just enough sharpness for my eyes to see detail, but not too much where it becomes overbearing like I mentioned above. It is not a lighting issue either. Tt could be just the nature of RP CRT. But again, I have the set at a good level now, that produces a great picture. In a way it's almost as if my eyes almost direct me to the most natural-looking image - which also happens to be the image that is the least straining on your eyes. But as we all know, it is QUITE the challenge sorting through these large number of codes to get the correct image, and that is a challenge if I've ever seen one!

I still do not agree with all of the recomendations for VM use, at least for component or 480P use. Film is not naturally sharp, it is clear. Adding VM's seems to bring the image off the screen in a way which creates this 3D effect. But this is only due to the artificial layering that you're placing on top of the image. The fact that there is this layering forces your eyes to constantly make a decision on which "layer" to focus on, and this is a decision your eye doesn't always want to make, which creates eye strain. With every change of shot, there is a different degree of sharpness layering based on what's onscreen, and your eye each time has to adjust. The image should do the focusing, not your eyes. Film is like a window looking onto a clear image, not an image jumping off the screen from all that the layerings we've added to it. These extra settings I'm told looks great on the Avia sharpness patterns, but I still don't personally like the effect, especially the effect it has on my eyes. You do need the minimum sharpness to bring the image appropriately to the surface, once it gets past that though, the image becomes overbearing. This is all in my opinion, so please don't this too literally. There is some truth to it however.

The other thing that must be right (at least for me) are the colors. When I first purchased my set, I noticed that cool and warm looked great to my eyes, but neutral was a struggle to watch.

I have never had any eye problems which I know of - if anything i have a very very slight blurring in the right eye. Otherwise I have great vision.
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post #96 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:17 PM
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The VM settings are personal preference, I like them personally. There far from the original Sony set up VM settings.

I forgot to mention some settings in MID5, Can view more here at KenTechs article:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ss#post7289854
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post #97 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick2003
Thanks Justsc, Did you mount it towards the middle of the back or above the tv's back? How much does it light up around the tv? Seems like it would be pretty hard to light alot of area with a big CRT. I think you probably missed my other question cause i edited my reply:

Do you need any other lights on in the room with that on?

Thanks again.
I did miss your other question. I use both the Ideal Lume backlight and a small additional light in the vanity. The wall behind my tv doesn't go all the way to the ceiling as it's a cathedral ceiling. Behind that wall is the sink/vanity and I have its light lit while watching the tv at night. With these two lights on my eyes are able to relax and as I said before. the Ideal Lume backlight really helps with picture quality.

I mounted the Ideal Lume light dead center and sort-of even with the top of the tv on the wall behind it. With the way I sit I'm just low enough that I can't actually see the light fixture. It throws a light that blankets the wall behind the tv and doesn't extend out too much from there - just a little bit. So you can easily see the effect of the backlight, and the throw sends it out in such a way that there's a mild perimeter of light around the tv on the wall.
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post #98 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:27 PM
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Thanks for the reply, I'll be ordering one tommarow :)
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post #99 of 157 Old 03-22-2006, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Napoleon D
JustSC - I suffer from some kind of pain in the muscles behind my eyes when the sharpness settings are too high. For example, if I have the VM settings in the SM turned on, with MIDES added, then the screen just hurts the hell out of my entire forehead. If I have the screen looking like this, it looks fanstastic, but the second I relax my eyes, I can literally feel a profound throbbing in my eye muscles. The real culprits are the VM values, which i have learned to ALWAYS keep on zero....
I don't really know for sure whether my difficulty with focusing on things very sharply has anything to do with my migraines or not. The Dr thinks they're probably related. All I know is there needs to be an ever so mild step back from perfect sharpness for my eyes to tolerate things, including tv. Then, with my eyes relaxed, if I've got the tv set-up correctly, what I see appears very crisp. It's a real balancing act.

When I was playing with SYSM and I had it on anything other than 2 or 3 my eyes really protested. I can tolerate SYSM=2 pretty well if I follow KenTech's new method with the other setting adjustments.
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post #100 of 157 Old 03-23-2006, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Reddish Faces on Sony KV-30HS420
Maybe they are running fevers caused by the dreaded bird flu.
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post #101 of 157 Old 03-23-2006, 09:26 AM
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Didn't have a chance to read the whole forum, but just fyi I also have a kv-30hs420 and my gyr and gyb are dropped way down. From the factory my red was pushed a ton and my green was..."unpushed?" I checked using the avia disc test that has you compare the color bars to a 77 IRE gray through the color filters. Even with my greens down it seems green is still slightly under-represented. However this has been a very noticable fix, all colors appear to stand out more. Oddly enough, especially red. (I assume this is because the only things that are now red are the things that are meant to be red, as opposed to everything having a hint of it)

~Best of luck~
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post #102 of 157 Old 03-23-2006, 12:06 PM
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Since we are talking about service menu settings let me jump right in:)

The color settings such as RYR-GYB are global just to let you know,but only on the picture mode you are using does it stay global.If for example you go to movie mode or standard mode RYR-GYB will be different.

As for my take on VM and edge enhancements, well...i'd rather have the enhancements be done from the other end and have it from the material not the tv adding stuff to it.The cleaner the processing the better and sharper your picture will look.especially in motion it's much better and sharper. I find that VM is only good with still images, when things are in motion the image get's very grainy and adds artifacts that are not in the origianl signal, now this is bad.The way my tv is set up with 0 enhancements, i turned VM settings completely off and the MIDE 5 table completely off as well and my picture is super clean not an artifact in sight, it really is a work of art and i can't wait to post some pictures to show you what i mean;)
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post #103 of 157 Old 03-23-2006, 12:33 PM
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SurfingMatt - You've turned off all enhancements? I'm guessing you keep your sharpness slider in the middle.
Have you turned off SHAP, SHFO and PREO as well? I thought I had everything off, until I discovered the SHAP setting (which was defaulted at 6). SHAP creates a little bit of a coarsness to the image. Unfortunately, if I do turn the SHAP to zero, the image is harder to focus on. What I mean - the image looks perfectly crisp, but you need to focus a tad harder to see details (very similar to what happens when your sharpness is too low).

I agree with you 100% about removing artifacts/enhancements from the screen. This clears up the image a lot, revealing more detail from the source, and frees up the image of extra noise and artifacts, making it much more natural and real. And it's still perfectly crisp, if not more, and makes the screen seem larger as well. You still need that minumum sharpness, with slider set in the middle, but that's really it. Adding all of the VM's might appear to make the image better, but it's really just adding artificiality to the image. I refer to it as the attractive girl with too much makeup. She needs enough to cover up the blemishes and accentuate the good parts. If she puts on too much of that stuff, it might make her more noticeable, but the closer you look you'll notice her face is completely flaky and unnatural, and looks ridiculous. You get the point.

KenTech mentioned that sharpness and color calibration are 2 different parts completely. The only interaction I see, is that different color-decoder values make the image appear sharper (as in, the less red is saturated, the more it appears to come across in the image).
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post #104 of 157 Old 03-23-2006, 12:34 PM
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So Matt is your sharpness setting in the user menu set to zero?
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post #105 of 157 Old 03-23-2006, 12:58 PM
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Your right Napolean D i have sharpness set in the middle and those others you mentioned i left untouched from the service menu.

The sharpness slider is really all i need really to acomplish minor enhancement to the picture it's so minamal that you probably would'nt notice anyways.
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post #106 of 157 Old 03-24-2006, 09:38 AM
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Nick, Who calibrated your set? You mentioned someone "well known" in the Michigan area. I wonder if we had the same calibrator.

After ISF, my grayscale colors came out dead on with the chroma scale - meaning everything's perfectly balanced. I'm not sure how this works, but a couple of color gammas were needed to balance things off. I noticed you didn't have these added with your display.

I think it's an important distinction, because the gamma values make the screen a little bright/intense for me at times. I wish I could just take the gamma values out of the equation, but that will probably throw off the grayscale balance. As we know gamma creates a 3-D like effect, because it brightens up midtones. I'm not fully sure how gamma works and what it accomplishes, but I notice a lot of people have their grayscale balanced without the use of it. I'm not sure I enjoy the effect of it, as it just makes the screen to bright at times.

Again I would love to be able to remove the small blue and green gamma values that were added, and compensate for them elsewhere.

I also wonder what the BCOF/BDOF etc values do as well. Mine were left alone.
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post #107 of 157 Old 03-24-2006, 11:50 AM
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I'm pretty sure "removing" gamma would absolutely destroy any balance and accurate color representation that your tv has. Aside from who knows what else. To my understanding, the use of a gamma curve is a scientifically necessary inclusion based on how the eye perceives lights and colors. The curve is based on the fact that the eye's response to light is non-linear. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was pretty sure it was necessary.

~Best of luck~
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post #108 of 157 Old 03-24-2006, 12:19 PM
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Not to mention losing shadow detail completely,it's best to leave it alone.
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post #109 of 157 Old 03-24-2006, 12:36 PM
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Napoleon D: John Gannon calibrated my set.
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post #110 of 157 Old 03-26-2006, 01:45 AM
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Great stuff in this thread guys. Thanks for posting so much info. I do have a question though. The whites on my kv-30hs420 are ghosting (leaving trails). Have any of you had this issue? And if so, do you know anyway to get it under control?
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post #111 of 157 Old 03-26-2006, 11:35 AM
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Either your brightness is too low or your contrast is too high, redusing or increasing either one will help.Prefurably lowering contrast in the middle and upping brightness instead.
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post #112 of 157 Old 03-28-2006, 02:28 PM
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Sorry if I am being a nusence, but I have one last question. When I have a crosshatch pattern on my tv the vertical lines are close together in the middle and get further apart towards the sides.

I have pulled in as much of the over scan as possible. I just want to know if ther is a way to expand the middle or something to even out the lines without losing any of the picture on the sides. Any help would be appreciated.


*I have posted this in the SSC thread by KenTech also.
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post #113 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 12:08 AM
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i notice the same thing with my 30HS. the vertical lines(physical scan lines) are further apart towards the ends. this makes the edges look out of focus. nothing looks good on the outter edges because you can actually see the lines that make up the image. i dont think it can be fixed because its the actually physical lines.
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post #114 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 01:58 PM
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nick2003 is there any way you could post all of your SM settings in the order like the first set you posted. The new set you posted is getting me lost.
It would be nice to have a whole set of your Service menu changes like this...........

In 2170P-1:
YOSW 0
TCOF 0
YOF 7
CBOF 37
CROF 37
SBRT 28
RDRV 53
GDRV 35
BDRV 26
RCUT 60
GCUT 19
BCUT 27
WBSW 1
SBOF 7
RDOF 31
GDOF 34
BDOF 45
RCOF 31
GCOF37
BCOF 63
DCOL 0

It would help me alot, but I know its a lot of work
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post #115 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 02:15 PM
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Yeah i'll post them up for you in a little bit, for sharpness settings ive went back to the factory defaults which actually seems to be perfect for hdtv (not DVD) but it seems to be very well balanced and not to soft not to edgy.
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post #116 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 02:29 PM
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Ok thanks alot. I realy like the first setting alot and cant wait to see if the new ones are better.
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post #117 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 03:43 PM
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Here you go:

These are for an hdtv input, The color settings and almost all of it will be the same for the DVD input but the sharpness and vm settings and also Brightness level will vary with other inputs. For the DVD input i'd suggest using just your factory settings for the VM and sharpness settings (The ones to change are marked below) Also you might need to adjust UBOF even with your HD input sense you may have a diffrent box then me. Dont adjust your brightness till you have inky blacks because you will lose shadow detail so its best to have it not really dark.

In the usermenu:
Set picture 4 clicks to the left of the middle or just in the middle but i like a little less contrast (makes the picture more detailed)
Everything else in the center with neutral color mode and Clearedge VM off

In 2103-1 (change these to)
YLEV 19
CLEV 25
SCON 8
SCOL 6
SHUE 11
YDLY 0
SHAP 4
SHFO 3
PREO 1
BPFO 3
BPFQ 2
BPSW 1
TRAP 0
LPF 1
AFCG 0
CDMD 3
SSMD 2
HMSK 1
HALI 0
PPHA 7
CBO1 26
CRO1 43
CBO2 21
CRO2 39
ATPD 0
DCTR 0

In 2170P-1:
YOSW 0
TCOF 0
YOF 7
CBOF 37
CROF 37
SBRT 29
RDRV 30
GDRV 28
BDRV 23
RCUT 43
GCUT 24
BCUT 22
WBSW 0
SBOF 7
RDOF 30
GDOF 31
BDOF 32
RCOF 30
GCOF 31
BCOF 32
DCOL 0

2170P-2

PICO 1
RGBS 7
BLKB 3
RGBL 2
YLMT 3
AGNG 0
AKBO 0
CLPP 3
CLPG 0
CLPS 0
PPAD 3
SYNP 0
HVBT 0

2170P-3

SYSM 3 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
YMLV 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VMCR 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VMLM 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VMFO 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VMDL 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
SHOF 1 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
SHFO 1
PROV 3
F1LV 0
LTLV 0
LTMD 1
CTLV 0
UBOF 4 (For HDTV, Varies for each input so adjust accordingly)
UCOF 0
UHOF 0
MIDE 20
VM 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VMH 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VMM 0 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VML 2 (for dvd set to factory default for hd use my settings)
VGAP 5
VGAS 5
VGAB 5
VGAC 5
VGAV 5

2170P-4:

YCON 1
SPIC 0
SCOL 36
SHUE 30
SPIO 7
SCLO 7
SHUO 7
UPIC 31
UBRT 31
UCOL 31
UHUE 31
USHP 31
UTMP 1
RYR 14
RYB 14
GYR 6
GYB 4
GAMM 0
GAMS 0
GAMR 0
GAMG 0
GAMB 0
BLK 0
DCTR 0
APED 0
DSBO 7
IDSW 0
ABLM 0
ABLT 0
SPOF 0
DPSQ 1
LRGB 3

Change these in MID5 to:

Leave to factory default for DVD but change for HDTV

POP 20
MHLY 0
MHLC 0
MVLY 0
MVLC 0
MHYR 0
MHYL 1
MHYE 2
MHYO 0
MHCR 0
MHCL 0
MHCE 0
MHCO 0
MVYR 0
MVYL 0
MVYE 0
MVCR 0
MVCL 0
MVCE 0
SHLY 0
SHLC 0
SVLY 0
SVLC 0
SHYR 0
SHYL 0
SHYE 0
SHYO 0
SHCR 0
SHCL 0
SHCE 0
SHCO 0
SVYR 0
SVYL 0
SVYE 0
SVCR 0
SVCL 0
SVCE 0
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post #118 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 03:46 PM
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Also keep in mind that the lighting in your room will make a big diffrence in how good the picture is, In my home theater the higher i turn up my lights the better the picture.
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post #119 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 06:19 PM
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I just use OTA for HD and I always watch DVDs in the dark. Im going to try these new settings out and see how I like them. I will report back and tell you what I think compaired with the old ones which I realy like.
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post #120 of 157 Old 04-04-2006, 08:02 PM
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Not good to watch anything in the dark, Bad for eyestrain plus the picture won't look as good.
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