Can CRTs benefit from upscaling DVD players - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 09-30-2006, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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The world has gone bananas over upscaling DVD players. I can understand why they make sense for fixed pixel displays, but for a direct vew CRT that can sync with a 480p signal is there any possible benefit? I have a 38" Loewe Aconda which can sync to 480i, 580p, 540p or 1080i over component. When I got the set a few years ago the 480i de-interlacer in the Aconda was relatively good. It is still has a nice effect in the "super mode" -- especially with slow pans, but other players generate far less motion artifacts with fast motion. So, it looks like it is time to get a new DVD player with a modern de-interlacer. Of course, most of the better players perform upscaling as well. I've started making copies of some of my better DVDs, so I can let the DVD player upscale the signal to 1080i over component if there is a benefit. I'm just not convinced that I need concern myself with the upscaling capabilities of a DVD player -- at least for the Aconda.

At this point, the new Denon 2930CI is looking the most attactive even thought it is a little expensive listing for $850. I've also considered the Toshiba HD-DVD players which are around $500. The Toshiba players have very decent SD DVD playback, but all indications are that the more expensive Denon unit will have noticeably better SD DVD playback. If it wasn't for the Image Constraint Token (ICT) support in the Toshiba (and probably all other HD players to come) players, I would not hesitate to get this player just to get HD-DVD. However, I am convinced that that when (and if) HD-DVD picks up the studios will set the ICT flag so that analog component output will be down-graded to 540p for HD-DVDs. The other player I will keep my eye on is the OPPO 972 player that is supposed to be released sometime soon. As you may know the current OPPO 971 has a great reputation, but does not output 480p over component. I'm hoping that the 972 will.

So, have other CRT HDTV owners noticed an improvement with upscaling SD DVDs to 1080i?
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post #2 of 28 Old 10-01-2006, 07:41 PM
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My Samsung HD-931 is better at 1080i on my Panasonic 30WX15.
850 is a lot of money for a DVD player. The upcoming Toshiba HD-AX2 with HDMI 1.3 and 1080p can be had for that.
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post #3 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

The world has gone bananas over upscaling DVD players. I can understand why they make sense for fixed pixel displays, but for a direct vew CRT that can sync with a 480p signal is there any possible benefit? I have a 38" Loewe Aconda which can sync to 480i, 580p, 540p or 1080i over component. When I got the set a few years ago the 480i de-interlacer in the Aconda was relatively good. It is still has a nice effect in the "super mode" -- especially with slow pans, but other players generate far less motion artifacts with fast motion. So, it looks like it is time to get a new DVD player with a modern de-interlacer. Of course, most of the better players perform upscaling as well. I've started making copies of some of my better DVDs, so I can let the DVD player upscale the signal to 1080i over component if there is a benefit. I'm just not convinced that I need concern myself with the upscaling capabilities of a DVD player -- at least for the Aconda...

...So, have other CRT HDTV owners noticed an improvement with upscaling SD DVDs to 1080i?

This trend towards upscaling players is fascinating. Especially since all HD sets already scale/convert incoming signals to match the set's native resolution. Unfortunately, many spend good money on something they're already getting.

The benefit comes in when a player does a better job with the signal than the tv. In my case this is true. I have the Sony 34" widescreen HD set. I recently (6 months ago) integrated the OPPO OPDV971H upscaling dvd player. The resulting PQ is incredible. Before getting the Oppo I purchased the HQV Benchmark DVD. This disc will put a tv or a dvd player through a long list of very tough video processing tests. At the end you'll have a very good idea of how well your tv or dvd player performs. In the beginning I used the disc with a standard progressive scan dvd player. The first test was with composite cables which forced the tv to employ its own video processing circuit(s). I was surprised to see how poorly the tv performed. It didn't fail, per se, but the results were not impressive. Then I tested the dvd player's internal processors by using the PS setting and component cables. In this case the player does all the work and the tv displays the results. The results were better but not by much. This told me that my tv's built-in deinterlacer and processors were on a par with my dvd player. After reading so much about the Oppo and it's Faroudja based processor(s), I ordered it. As soon as I got it home I hooked it up and ran the HQV Benchmark DVD tests. WOW. What a difference. This time it passed all tests with flying colors (pun intended). It didn't just pass the tests, in most cases it ranked outstanding. Yes, it does scale the aignal to 1080i, but that's not what I consider the strength of this player. The benefit is in how the Oppo processes the signal and how much value is added to the resulting PQ. You can go to the Oppo web site to read all about how this works. I have found their claims to be true. For PQ, the Oppo bested a $3,500 Denon player. And the Oppo sells for $199. Suffice it to say, I've kept my Oppo.

So, yes. In the case of the Oppo, the benefit is clear (to me, and many others - look at the DVD Player section of AVS - there's 2 large threads dedicated to the Oppo). I could take or leave the upscaling, it's the advanced video processing that sells me. Interestingly enough, I prefer to set the Oppo to output 720p rather than 1080i. There's a long story behind this, but bottom line - the (Faroudja) video processing strengths lie in its deinterlacing and associated enhancements. Of course, the Sony tv re-interlaces the signal for display, but there's so much of the added PQ value left to make one heck-uv-a nice picture. Much better than what the tv can do on its own, and much better than a standard progressive scan player as well.

The video processing all takes place on the DVI daughtercard, so one's tv must have at least a DVI interface to really take advantage of this unit.
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post #4 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

I have a 38" Loewe Aconda which can sync to 480i, 580p, 540p or 1080i over component.

I tried an upscaling DVD player on my F38310 (same CRT as the Aconda) and saw no (or VERY little) difference when send 1080i over component. I returned the player.

And... if the Aconda is like the RCA as to how it handles input signals, if will not automatically upscale to 1080i for display when receiving a 480p signal.

Also... if you want an upscaling player, The Toshiba make sense to get the best of both worlds (an upscaling player and HD-DVD). The ICT token has not (yet) been implemented on any HD-DVD's, so you're still olay with component for the time being.
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post #5 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 11:19 AM
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Yes, there is a very noticable benefit on my CRT HDTV. I'm using the Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player, using HDMI.
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post #6 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 01:47 PM - Thread Starter
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The Aconda display at "native 480p." There is no scaling required. I'm not questioning the value of the superior interlacing capabilites of the OPPO. In fact, I have been lusting after the new Denon DVD-2930CI and would most likely use it only for de-interlacing, since there is no need for me to scale. It sounds like some of the other CRTs actually do upscale the 480p signal to 1080i in which case a DVD player with an upscaler might be beneficial depending on the capabilities of the TV. So, my real question is whether there is any potential benefit in "combining the interlacing and scaling and sending it to a 1080i native display " has a benefit over simply :sending a de-interlaced 480p signal to a native 480p display."
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post #7 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 02:55 PM
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CRT's don't actually have a "native resolution" like a fixed pixel display.

Benefits comparing? Probably not... since all 'legacy' DVD's are encoded at 480i anyway.

Then take into consideration, which has a better deinterlacer, your existing DVD player, a new DVD player or the TV itself?

Add to that... if you want to "upscale" to 1080i, which DVD player has the better upscaler? The Oppo, Denon, or the Toshiba?

If your TV is fed a 1080i signal, it will be displayed at 1080i. Many have claimed that the scaler in the Toshiba is very good. So with legacy DVD's it's a benefit. And obviously... it will provide HD-DVD too.

Enjoy today... worry about ICT tomorrow.
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post #8 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Ratman,

It seems that you are combining de-interlacing and upscaling when they don't necessarily have to be combined. You an do both with the DVD player or you can ddo both with the TV. You can also have the DVD player only do the de-interlacing and let the TV do the scaling. Finally, some CRTs don't need to scale. They can sycn with a 480p signal on analog component.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

CRT's don't actually have a "native resolution" like a fixed pixel display.

I put native in quotes, but my CRT does sync with a 480i or 480p signal (as well as 1080i) so in that sense it is "native." -- it is multi-sync in PC speak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Benefits comparing? Probably not... since all 'legacy' DVD's are encoded at 480i anyway.

The DVD player can either send 480i, 480p or 1080i. The comparison I am interested in is between 480p and 1080i -- given that the original source is only 480.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Then take into consideration, which has a better deinterlacer, your existing DVD player, a new DVD player or the TV itself?

I know that my TV's deinterlacer is not as good a a modern DVD player. My TV's technology is at least 5 years old. Even with my current player I've started sending my TV 480p rather than 480i to get a better image.
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post #9 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

It seems that you are combining de-interlacing and upscaling when they don't necessarily have to be combined.

Not my intent if you interpreted that way. I do know the difference. Just try to make sure that you do.

Quote:


You an do both with the DVD player or you can ddo both with the TV. You can also have the DVD player only do the de-interlacing and let the TV do the scaling. Finally, some CRTs don't need to scale. They can sycn with a 480p signal on analog component.

Don't confuse the terms. Firstly... you need to understand 1) what your TV is capable of displaying. And secondly.... 2) What exactly you attempt to acheive as a perceived "benefit".

Quote:


I put native in quotes, but my CRT does sync with a 480i or 480p signal (as well as 1080i) so in that sense it is "native." -- it is multi-sync in PC speak.

Sync'ing with a signal and what is actually displayed are two different things. What you "feed it" (the sync) and what it actually displays makes a difference.

Quote:


The DVD player can either send 480i, 480p or 1080i. The comparison I am interested in is between 480p and 1080i -- given that the original source is only 480.

My point... your TV can sync to those signals. I guess it's up to you to determine which does the "better" job of deinterlacing (your TV, the old DVD player, a new DVD player). If your desire is to utimately make a 480i legacy DVD 1080i... then you need to compare a non-HD DVD player's capability against the "newer" HD-DVD player's capability.

Quote:


I know that my TV's deinterlacer is not as good a a modern DVD player. My TV's technology is at least 5 years old. Even with my current player I've started sending my TV 480p rather than 480i to get a better image.

No matter... deinterlacing is usually always better when performed in the player itself (in the digital domain), no matter how old the player may be.

I can't stress enough... consider the Toshiba. You get good deinterlacing, good scaling and HD-DVD's (without ICT) while it lasts. And... whenever you get a new TV with HDMI... you're still positioned.
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post #10 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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[quote=Ratman
I can't stress enough... consider the Toshiba. You get good deinterlacing, good scaling and HD-DVD's (without ICT) while it lasts. And... whenever you get a new TV with HDMI... you're still positioned.[/QUOTE]

I've seen the HD-AX1. The picture is beautiful with HD-DVDs. The upscaling of SD DVDs was very close to the Denon DVD-2910 which is a $650 dedicated DVD player. I have something like 350 DVDs, so my focus is on getting the best possible image from SD DVD for less than $1000. Everything I have read about the Denon DVD-2930CI makes me think that it will be the ideal solutoin for my system. I think I will wait until I get a TV with HDMI 10.x before investing in HD-DVD or Blu-ray. There aren't a lot of titles yet and by the time there are I am convinced that the ICT flags will be set. I can't imagine the studios rolling out a lot of titles that permit output over analog component. I how have two HDTV monitors that are full 1080i and neither has HDMI/HDCP. Worse, neither accepts 540p, so I best I will be able to get from HD DVD will be 480p.

Oh yeah. I also bought an LG LST-3510 DVD/OTA HD receiver combo based on the fact that it would upconvert SD DVDs to my fixed pixel LCD display. Of course, by the time I got mine the upscaling was disabled. You the saying: "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

So, I've already invested too much in obsolete technolgy. If I wait a few more years the HDMI protocol will be more stable, the HD format wars will be over (maybe), there will be lots of HD titles and the pricing will be closer to standard DVDs. I best of all, Denon or Pioneer will have a rock solid universal player for all of my needs. In the mean time, I just want to have the most wicked DVD viewing experience possible.
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post #11 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 05:19 PM
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Good luck with your decision.

Just to make you aware...
Be sure to be absolutely positive the Denon will "upscale" to 1080i via component as most all legacy DVD's (SD/480i) have ICT enabled. Therefore... you'd be out of luck. Especially after you've spent $150 more compared to the Tosh.
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post #12 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Good luck with your decision.

Just to make you aware...
Be sure to be absolutely positive the Denon will "upscale" to 1080i via component as most all legacy DVD's (SD/480i) have ICT enabled. Therefore... you'd be out of luck. Especially after you've spent $150 more compared to the Tosh.

I will most likely only use the Denon at 480P with the Loewe. I'm getting good at making DVD back-up copies, but if the Denon doesn't support upscaling SD DVDs over component that would not be the end of the world for me. Someday, in the far future I will be able to connect that player to a 1080p flat panel with HDMI.
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post #13 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

I will most likely only use the Denon at 480P with the Loewe. .

IMO... that's a very large expense for a 480p only player. It seems as if your mind is already set on the Denon.

Good luck and enjoy!
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post #14 of 28 Old 10-03-2006, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. This is a lot of money, but it sounds like image-wise I will be getting something approaching those that cost more than $3K a year ago.
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post #15 of 28 Old 10-08-2006, 08:53 AM
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So getting an upconverting DVD player would be a good idea then for me?

I have a 34" Toshiba 34HF83 widescreen direct-view CRT currently coupled with a Sony DVP-NS50P prog. scan DVD player. The TV has a DVI input in the back. Would an upconverting Oppo 970 or a Panasonic DVDS52 be of benefit to my picture quality? Thanks!
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post #16 of 28 Old 10-08-2006, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I tried an upscaling DVD player on my F38310 (same CRT as the Aconda) and saw no (or VERY little) difference when send 1080i over component. I returned the player.

And... if the Aconda is like the RCA as to how it handles input signals, if will not automatically upscale to 1080i for display when receiving a 480p signal.

Also... if you want an upscaling player, The Toshiba make sense to get the best of both worlds (an upscaling player and HD-DVD). The ICT token has not (yet) been implemented on any HD-DVD's, so you're still olay with component for the time being.

ratman i too have the f38310 38'' widescreen rca crt tube , and i am using a panasonic vhs dvd combo upcoverter and theirs a HUUGGEE diffrense ....

maybe you didnt plug 'em right , put the componet cable then turn into componet mode and you should be able to see diffrense if you can swap between componet and input 1, 2 , 3 , or front,,....

the tv i have is 1080i .... hdtv srry idndt read enought on this thread

added : this applies to anyone , when u put your componet ( since crt dont have hdmi) for your upcoverting dvd players , regular a/v cables u wont see a diffrense except that the TEXT that is white will be white WITH other colors , THIS is normal FIX/SOLUTION put your dvd players COMPONET cables

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post #17 of 28 Old 10-08-2006, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to close the loop on this thread -- or at least answer half of my question...

Two days ago I picked up the Denon DVD-2930CI for my Aconda. I'm limited to 480i/p over component. The 480i signal from the Denon was a significant improvement over my previous player which was a Rotel RDV-1050, which was a nice improvement over my Panasonic RP-91 that many on this forum speak very highly of. Now, the Denon DVD-2930CI in 480p mode is as good as anything I've seen. Watching Racing Stripes was as good as most high definition DTV or OTA/ATSC I've seen and this is at 480p. The detail, color, depth, low noise, smooth motion -- all amazing. I'm sure that a decent player connected to a very expensive outbound video processor output to a $10,000 plasma would be better, but...

So, the half of the question I answered for myself is that I can still see huge improvements with my TV using just 480p and no upscaling. The part of the question that I can't answer, because this player doesn't upscale over component, is whether or not an upscaled 1080i signal would give me a better picture. I have a feeling that I will not be losing any sleep over that one:-). I feel that this upgrade was well worth $850.
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post #18 of 28 Old 10-08-2006, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

maybe you didnt plug 'em right , put the componet cable then turn into componet mode and you should be able to see diffrense if you can swap between componet and input 1, 2 , 3 , or front,,....

I think ratman's point and a fundamental issue with the Aconda is that it does not auto-detect and switch between component resolutions. Thus, you have to punch a bunch of remote buttons for about 30 seconds to change between 480p and 1080i. This awkward behavior is one of the reasons that I decided to hold-off on getting an HD-DVD player and use it for both HD-DVD @ 1080i and SD DVD at 480p. Switching is not convenient at all -- and a little hard to explain to other family members. The easier "dual media" solution would have been to play the SD DVDs though s-video and HD DVDs through component set at 1080i. Of course, you then compromise the SD DVD image and make it look even worse compared to HD-DVD.
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post #19 of 28 Old 10-09-2006, 04:21 AM
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gus738..
I'm not a newbie at this... I'm well aware of how to use my F38310 and the capabilities of DVD players, setup and cabling.

Are you sure YOU know what you're talking about? Most DVD players are not capable of supporting an upscaled signal via component. What model DVD player are you using?

Are you sure your not confusing interlaced vs. progressive scan. If so, that is not upscaling.
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post #20 of 28 Old 10-09-2006, 02:44 PM
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trust me i know theirs a huge diffrense i'm using the panasonic dmr-es46v dvd /vhs combo . i bought it in costco for $289 recently .... and i pluged via componet cables and i noticed a huge diffrense cuz i also had them pluged on input 1 and i woudl swap to compare and theirs a huge diffrense ....

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post #21 of 28 Old 10-09-2006, 03:33 PM
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gus738 - I'm guessing that the "huge difference" you are seeing is the difference between 480i composite video (yellow RCA/S-video, your HDTV inputs 1,2,3) and 480i or 480p component video(red,green,blue/YPbPr, your HDTV component video input).

Your HDTV doesn't appear to support HDMI/DVI and your DVD player only appears to output HD upconvert (1080i or 720p) over HDMI and not component.

According to page 17 of your DMR-ES46V users manual, your upconversion DVD player is not upconverting unless you are using the HDMI output.

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post #22 of 28 Old 10-09-2006, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gus738 View Post

trust me i know theirs a huge diffrense i'm using the panasonic dmr-es46v dvd /vhs combo . i bought it in costco for $289 recently .... and i pluged via componet cables and i noticed a huge diffrense cuz i also had them pluged on input 1 and i woudl swap to compare and theirs a huge diffrense ....

We must also account for the improved deinterlacer in the unit. Many of the differences people see are merely an improvement in that area. My experience on
a Sony and a Panasonic CRT is that most of the upconverting players I have tried actually look worse than my philips dvd q50. The only one that was equal to my Q50 was the LG via component. It was hacked to upconvert via component. I found the PQ over HDMI very harsh looking. When I get my HD DVD player I will test both HDMI and Component and see if I am seeing the same things. To sum up my experience, no my CRT sets did not benefit from a upconverting player. A fixed pixel display may be another story.
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post #23 of 28 Old 10-09-2006, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raouliii View Post

gus738 - I'm guessing that the "huge difference" you are seeing is the difference between 480i composite video (yellow RCA/S-video, your HDTV inputs 1,2,3) and 480i or 480p component video(red,green,blue/YPbPr, your HDTV component video input).

Your HDTV doesn't appear to support HDMI/DVI and your DVD player only appears to output HD upconvert (1080i or 720p) over HDMI and not component.

According to page 17 of your DMR-ES46V users manual, your upconversion DVD player is not upconverting unless you are using the HDMI output.

yes your right in order to soposlly UPCONVERT it , it needs hdmi , i knoew this would be an issue as componet is super analog , but what im trying to say is that i used my panasonic and i noticed a huge diffrense despite not really running maximum on hdmi

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post #24 of 28 Old 10-09-2006, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post

We must also account for the improved deinterlacer in the unit. Many of the differences people see are merely an improvement in that area. My experience on
a Sony and a Panasonic CRT is that most of the upconverting players I have tried actually look worse than my philips dvd q50. The only one that was equal to my Q50 was the LG via component. It was hacked to upconvert via component. I found the PQ over HDMI very harsh looking. When I get my HD DVD player I will test both HDMI and Component and see if I am seeing the same things. To sum up my experience, no my CRT sets did not benefit from a upconverting player. A fixed pixel display may be another story.

Are you using the current LG upconvert model? It says it can upconvert over component but only does so with non-commericial DVDs.

I wish there were units that upconvert over component because it would make more sense with a tube tv since it is an analog technology and so is component video. I cant seem to get a straight answer if using HDMI on a tube HDTV is worth it.
I have an LG upconvert player running into my LG Slimfit TV using HDMI and I am not wowed by the picture although it isnt awful either. I just got both units so I am still playing with both the player and the TV. I did find though that disabling 3-2 pulldown on the TV DID improve image quality, especially on skintones. That leads me to believe that the scaler and image chip in the $99 LG are not too shabby.

Any additional info. input, and advice would be great.
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post #25 of 28 Old 10-10-2006, 08:50 AM
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You can pick up a lg dvb418 off ebay for less then 50 bucks. Check out the 418 thread and you can hack it to upconvert over component. I opted to use both of my philips q50 players over the LG because they play my burned media easily and overall PQ is in my opinion better.
My Q50 have a older faroudja chip with DCDI and do not have the dreaded macroblocking problem. Same chip that is in the heralded Panny RP82.
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post #26 of 28 Old 10-10-2006, 11:35 AM
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I grabbed a Sony DVP-NS90V for $180 new. Via HDMI it does an EXCELLENT job of upconverting for the price.

My initial setup tests involved Dolby Digital theatrical trailers (Canyon, Egypt, Train, Aurora, City, etc.) to confirm proper upscale. No shift errors as has been previously reported with NS90V's with older firmware. Sony states they corrected this 3-4 months ago.

The secondary tests, I threw everything at it... but of particular note were the 2-disc edition of Star Trek: First Contact, filmed in Panavision, which has a very even color gamut and fine film grain; and Collateral, which was filmed using the Thompson ViperSTREAM and Sony HD900F CineAlta, with Zeiss Digiprime lenses... a very different kind of color gamut, different depth of field and contrast characteristics that 35mm cannot produce in naturally-lit scenes.

Both of these films produced astonishingly good results on the NS90V. The one downside is that it will not upconvert via component but the HDMI feed also has better clarity and little or no artifacts by comparison.
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post #27 of 28 Old 10-10-2006, 06:53 PM
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OK, I am alittle confused. I presently have the Sony KV-34XBR800 (with DVI input). I am thinking of getting the RDXs55 Toshiba DVD/HD Recorder with upconvert through HDMI. If I get a HDMI to DVI cable I know I will have to run a seprate audio source to my TV...will I see an improvement in VQ? Will the picture be same as if I had a HDMI input on my TV?

Thanks for any advice!!!!
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post #28 of 28 Old 05-10-2007, 10:11 AM
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I have a Sony KV-34HS420 HDTV hooked up via component to a sony progressive scan player.

Will I see a difference hooking up an upscaling player via HDMI?

Samsung just came out with the 1080P7 player.
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