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post #1 of 31 Old 04-02-2007, 09:38 PM - Thread Starter
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does anyone make a 1080P CRT HDTV yet?

or any on the way?

would be nice if sony made one

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post #2 of 31 Old 04-02-2007, 10:03 PM
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Nope. CRTs aren't capable of 1080p.
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post #3 of 31 Old 04-02-2007, 10:09 PM
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A lot of PC CRT's are capable of 1080P (1920x1080) My Sony GDM-FW900 displays up to 2304x1440P so its not unheard of for a CRT to do this... but unfortunately they never made any 1080p capable CRT HDTV's... Considering the current trend of companies abandoning CRTs I doubt it'll ever happen...
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post #4 of 31 Old 04-02-2007, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathesar View Post

A lot of PC CRT's are capable of 1080P (1920x1080) My Sony GDM-FW900 displays up to 2304x1440P so its not unheard of for a CRT to do this... but unfortunately they never made any 1080p capable CRT HDTV's... Considering the current trend of companies abandoning CRTs I doubt it'll ever happen...

Yep, they are called CRT PC monitors...my first HDTV. 19 ~ 22 inch can be had for a song nowadays.
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post #5 of 31 Old 04-02-2007, 10:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowknight View Post

Nope. CRTs aren't capable of 1080p.

Yes they are.
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post #6 of 31 Old 04-03-2007, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

does anyone make a 1080P CRT HDTV yet?

or any on the way?

No and no.

The electronics required to support 1080p (or even 720p) in a consumer CRT TV are relatively expensive, hence none of the manufacturers do it. I wouldn't expect that to ever change.

Of course, if you don't mind a smaller display, you could buy a CRT computer monitor and use that.
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post #7 of 31 Old 04-03-2007, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowknight View Post

Nope. CRTs aren't capable of 1080p.

This isn't true. There are CRT PC monitors that have higher resolution than that and are cheap. Also, movie studios have CRT displays that absolutely smoke anything ever put onto the consumer market. It seems to be a matter of cost. For whatever reason manufacturers are able to make super-high definition progressive scan CRT monitors for PCs at a low cost ( And with flawless geometry. ) but CRT HDTVs are interlaced, a third the resolution, have geometry problems, and cost 3X-5X as much. I'm not sure what the reasons are but companies seem to be able to make CRT monitors do anything at a low cost and to do the same thing for a CRT HDTV would cost more than anyone would be willing to pay.
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post #8 of 31 Old 04-03-2007, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Wickerman1972 View Post

This isn't true. There are CRT PC monitors that have higher resolution than that and are cheap. Also, movie studios have CRT displays that absolutely smoke anything ever put onto the consumer market. It seems to be a matter of cost. For whatever reason manufacturers are able to make super-high definition progressive scan CRT monitors for PCs at a low cost ( And with flawless geometry. ) but CRT HDTVs are interlaced, a third the resolution, have geometry problems, and cost 3X-5X as much. I'm not sure what the reasons are but companies seem to be able to make CRT monitors do anything at a low cost and to do the same thing for a CRT HDTV would cost more than anyone would be willing to pay.

Cost seems to increase disproportionally with size.
Also, most (all?) CRT monitors require manual adjustments at each resolution, which is something a TV maker would probably like to avoid and just prefer to upscan everything. Thing is, upscanning everything to 1080p could require some expensive electronics.
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post #9 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 06:36 AM
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I still don't understand why 1080 progressive scanning would cost that much more to do. Many PC monitors that are much smaller than a 34" inch tv, have native progressive scan with no problem.
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post #10 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

I still don't understand why 1080 progressive scanning would cost that much more to do. Many PC monitors that are much smaller than a 34" inch tv, have native progressive scan with no problem.

That's the thing, much smaller. It probably becomes cost prohibitive to make an electron gun that can move fast enough to cover a larger screen.
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post #11 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Fox5 View Post

That's the thing, much smaller. It probably becomes cost prohibitive to make an electron gun that can move fast enough to cover a larger screen.

??? I don't understand this either.
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post #12 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

??? I don't understand this either.

Do the geometry.

The electron gun has to 'paint' each pixel on the screen, if it has to cover a larger screen than the TV's depth has to grow to a very large size so the same angles can work, or the electron gun has to be capable of rotating a lot faster. (I'm assuming it doesn't actually mechanically move but rather shoots electrons through a pair of plates that just change voltage accordingly, but still you need electronics that are fast enough)

More lines mean a better electron gun is required as it has to be both faster and more precise.
And the screens have to be coated to be able to handle the resolution anyway, so perhaps making a piece of glass that big that can handle that fine of detail is difficult/overly expensive, especially since the tech available to do it came around at the same time as LCD and plasma were taking off.

There's also the problem that you'd need electronics capable of upscaling all input to 1080p, which is still expensive today and would have been wickedly expensive back when companies were still interested in making new CRTs.

PC monitors can get away with supporting multiple resolutions by being multiscan, but typically each new resolution requires image adjustments. The most I've heard of a tv supporting is two different modes with everything else just scaled.
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post #13 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 09:23 AM
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Do you think that if 1080p CRT were to happen in CE HDTV (which it won't, sadly), it'd be more likely with RPTV technology instead of larger direct view?

Three 1080p-capable 7" CRT "guns" would likely be cheaper than a larger direct-view tube.

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post #14 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 10:15 AM
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It is my understanding that a 9" gun CRT RPTV is capable of 1080, but the 7" guns are not, or are at least not sold.

Yes, size leads to exorbitant increases in price. Plus, the lead and other nasties in CRTs is helping push them into the grave. Besides, how many CRTs, even direct view CRTs, do you see for sale today? I expect some time next year, the price comparison between LCD and CRT will lead to LCDs outselling CRTs.

Some municipalities already charge a hazardous waste disposal fee for CRTs. Once that becomes widespread, we'll see people dumping their existing sets like wildfire.

I just don't see a manufacturer investing money in improving CRT TVs anymore.

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post #15 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox5 View Post

Do the geometry.

The electron gun has to 'paint' each pixel on the screen, if it has to cover a larger screen than the TV's depth has to grow to a very large size so the same angles can work, or the electron gun has to be capable of rotating a lot faster. (I'm assuming it doesn't actually mechanically move but rather shoots electrons through a pair of plates that just change voltage accordingly, but still you need electronics that are fast enough.


More lines mean a better electron gun is required as it has to be both faster and more precise.
And the screens have to be coated to be able to handle the resolution anyway, so perhaps making a piece of glass that big that can handle that fine of detail is difficult/overly expensive, especially since the tech available to do it came around at the same time as LCD and plasma were taking off.

This I totally do not understand. There aren't more lines. 1080i and 1080p are the exact same resolution. The only difference is one draws all the lines in the frame at once instead of dividing them into two separate fields (odd/even).

I also do not understand why the screens have to be coated differently to handle the "resolution," since the resolution is the same. If there is going to be overlapping of lines with 1080p, it will happen with 1080i too since phosphors decay far slower than the time it takes for the next field to hit the screen.

I'm also not talking about 1080p resolution - just 1080p scanning.

Quote:


PC monitors can get away with supporting multiple resolutions by being multiscan, but typically each new resolution requires image adjustments. The most I've heard of a tv supporting is two different modes with everything else just scaled.

Multiple resolutions wasn't the point. The point is they do high resolution progressive scan at smaller sizes and low prices.
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post #16 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post

This I totally do not understand. There aren't more lines. 1080i and 1080p are the exact same resolution. The only difference is one draws all the lines in the frame at once instead of dividing them into two separate fields (odd/even).

I also do not understand why the screens have to be coated differently to handle the "resolution," since the resolution is the same. If there is going to be overlapping of lines with 1080p, it will happen with 1080i too since phosphors decay far slower than the time it takes for the next field to hit the screen.

I'm also not talking about 1080p resolution - just 1080p scanning.



Multiple resolutions wasn't the point. The point is they do high resolution progressive scan at smaller sizes and low prices.

Ah, well if you're not concerned about resolving the full 1080p resolution, I guess the scanning could be done. 1080p requires an electron gun twice as fast as 1080i though.
And those monitors don't have electronics inside to scale the image, which a TV would most likely have in place of multiscan. That would add to the cost, how much did it cost to scale to 1080p 5 years ago?
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post #17 of 31 Old 04-04-2007, 08:00 PM - Thread Starter
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hdtv was invented, i thought, for better quality

why are people willing to pay more (flat panel) for less (quality)

imagine how awesome a sony crt xbr 1080p set would look

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post #18 of 31 Old 04-05-2007, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

imagine how awesome a sony crt xbr 1080p set would look

I imagine this all the time.
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post #19 of 31 Old 04-05-2007, 04:11 PM
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Imagine the size of a Sony CRT XBR with a 61" display, where HD can really shine.

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post #20 of 31 Old 04-05-2007, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

The electronics required to support 1080p (or even 720p) in a consumer CRT TV are relatively expensive, hence none of the manufacturers do it.

I don't know what you mean by "relatively", but one of the cheapest CRT monitor you can buy new today is the Viewsonic E70, which costs a bit over a 100 dollars. It supports horizontal scanning rates up to 70kHz, which means it can easily scan 1080 visible lines at 60Hz. The analog electronics probably make up only a small fraction of the price. A 19" HP LCD monitor that costs a bit over 200 dollars I tested a while ago accepted 1920x1080 input at 60Hz and correctly scaled it to the display's native resolution, which means the digital (scaling) electronics aren't very expensive either.

RPTVs would be very suitable for a 1080p display. Because there are three separate tubes, there is no "pixel" structure on them that would limit the scanned resolution. I don't know if large tubes are harder to scan a picture on, but the RPTV tubes are much smaller than the smallest monitor tubes, so the "large tubes are too difficult for high resolution" argument doesn't apply.

As for having to adjust the display for different modes: the 10-year old tube I'm using for a computer monitor remembers settings for who knows how many different modes.

The great thing about manufacturers abandoning CRTs is that I can pick up great displays for a few dollars or no money at all when people dump them for flat panels.
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post #21 of 31 Old 04-05-2007, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navychop View Post

Imagine the size of a Sony CRT XBR with a 61" display, where HD can really shine.

i don't think it would fit through the door and it would probably weigh 1000 pounds but i bet it would be nice to watch

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post #22 of 31 Old 04-06-2007, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totsugeki View Post

I don't know what you mean by "relatively", but one of the cheapest CRT monitor you can buy new today is the Viewsonic E70, which costs a bit over a 100 dollars. It supports horizontal scanning rates up to 70kHz, which means it can easily scan 1080 visible lines at 60Hz. The analog electronics probably make up only a small fraction of the price. A 19" HP LCD monitor that costs a bit over 200 dollars I tested a while ago accepted 1920x1080 input at 60Hz and correctly scaled it to the display's native resolution, which means the digital (scaling) electronics aren't very expensive either.

RPTVs would be very suitable for a 1080p display. Because there are three separate tubes, there is no "pixel" structure on them that would limit the scanned resolution. I don't know if large tubes are harder to scan a picture on, but the RPTV tubes are much smaller than the smallest monitor tubes, so the "large tubes are too difficult for high resolution" argument doesn't apply.


CRT TVs need to put out much more light than CRT monitors, and I think that effects their ability to display high resolutions.
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post #23 of 31 Old 04-06-2007, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otk View Post

i don't think it would fit through the door and it would probably weigh 1000 pounds but i bet it would be nice to watch

I wonder if it would toast us?

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post #24 of 31 Old 04-09-2007, 04:51 PM
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Here you go - a 37" 1080p capable (96KHz horizontal scan range) CRT:
NEC MultiSync XP37 Plus

There's also a 29" one:
NEC MultiSync XP29 Plus

Here's a 27" one:
Mitsubishi MegaView Pro 27

The NEC ones were first released in 1999. I have no idea how much one would have to pay for one of these.
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post #25 of 31 Old 04-09-2007, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totsugeki View Post

Here you go - a 37" 1080p capable (96KHz horizontal scan range) CRT:
NEC MultiSync XP37 Plus

There's also a 29" one:
NEC MultiSync XP29 Plus

Here's a 27" one:
Mitsubishi MegaView Pro 27

The NEC ones were first released in 1999. I have no idea how much one would have to pay for one of these.

Actually according to the specs (random searches on google) None of those monitors support 1920x1080 / 1080P.
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post #26 of 31 Old 04-09-2007, 07:11 PM
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First hit for "NEC MultiSync XP37 Plus" on Google (ciao.co.uk website):

"The MultiSync XP37 Plus is a high-resolution presentation monitor for CAD, workstation, and imaging professionals. It is ideal for tradeshow and rental use. The MultiSync XP37 Plus offers the broadest compatibility available in any 37" presentation monitor with a 95 kHz horizontal frequency range." and "Max Resolution: 1600 x 1200 / 75 Hz". The same website also claims a maximum of 60 kHz horizontal frequency range, but I'm inclined to think that it's an error, because it conflicts with the manufacturer's description and the maximum resolution figures (1200 lines at 75 Hz requires more than 90 kHz).

If a multisync monitor can scan 1200 lines 75 times a second, it can scan 1080 lines 60 times a second too. Horizontal resolution doesn't matter - 1280 by 1200 or 1920 by 1200 is all the same. It might be blurred horizontally though if the video bandwidth isn't adequate. 1080p60 requires less than 200MHz.
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post #27 of 31 Old 04-10-2007, 01:52 PM
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I have a 37" Mitsubishi Megaview monitor and it will sync to 1080p. The dot pitch is very coarse, however, so it's not really displaying all the detail.
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post #28 of 31 Old 04-10-2007, 09:05 PM
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one day they will make a TV as thin as an lcd or plasma and it will have the quality of crt. Of course that will be in 5 to 10 years but whos counting
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post #29 of 31 Old 06-18-2008, 11:02 PM
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Hello,
I know this thred is old, but I just found it while searching for my CRT Projectors.
In 2005 I bought a mint Nec xp37+ From Intel Germay. They sold 8 of them each for about 150 Euros. The had never really been in use because they were soon replaced by beamers in the late 90s. Not knowing what I bough and because of a lack of time it was placed in my well temperated basement.
Today I would say that I should have bought all of them. They did cost 20000 Euros new and I am impressed by their scanning capabilities. Max Resolution scanned: 2000 and somthing X 1500 and something 60hz, not looking really good. 1080p up to 80hz, 60hz goood looking. 720p only tested up to 140hz, 120 def. good looking!

Peace

noos
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post #30 of 31 Old 06-19-2008, 08:15 AM
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Yeah CRT projection is really amazing, but they need so much damn maintenance, and quality tubes are expensive..
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