Panasonic PT-AE3000 info and video here - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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Old 11-01-2008, 06:23 AM
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I have a few screen shots with a 3 second exposure...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14983802

You can see in the zoomed 2.35 image, that the projector's menu bar during the freeze frame is visible in the black GoM... in person, that was all I could see. None of the letter box was visible to me on the frame or GoM.

The ceiling catches some reflection but it's not too bad or distracting at all.

(140" diagonal, 129" wide, 2.37:1, 1.16 gain SmX screen - 17' throw in Normal mode).
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:24 AM
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In high brightness scenes like that, I don't expect to seem the black bars.

When they become noticeable to me is in low APL scenes when the contrast is at its lowest.

I am hopeful that black levels have reached the point in this generation of projectors that a good dark, background is sufficient to hide the black bars even in low APL scenes. I plan on using a velvet backdrop. That should do the job, or I am hoping so, anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis View Post

I have a few screen shots with a 3 second exposure...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post14983802

You can see in the zoomed 2.35 image, that the projector's menu bar during the freeze frame is visible in the black GoM... in person, that was all I could see. None of the letter box was visible to me on the frame or GoM.

The ceiling catches some reflection but it's not too bad or distracting at all.

(140" diagonal, 129" wide, 2.37:1, 1.16 gain SmX screen - 17' throw in Normal mode).

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Old 11-01-2008, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradjohnsonfan View Post

In high brightness scenes like that, I don't expect to seem the black bars.

When they become noticeable to me is in low APL scenes when the contrast is at its lowest.

I am hopeful that black levels have reached the point in this generation of projectors that a good dark, background is sufficient to hide the black bars even in low APL scenes. I plan on using a velvet backdrop. That should do the job, or I am hoping so, anyway...

Conrad, I'm pretty confident that you won't notice them on a black velvet background. They disappear on my maroon drapes around my screen and are barely noticeable even when expanded onto my dark walnut paneling behind the screen and drapes.
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Old 11-02-2008, 11:26 PM
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I have 16 hrs now on mine and about half of that was test patterns!

This is the first time in my life I have ever had a 1080p display, with a one to one pixel mapping option, and a 1080p source (Sony BDPS350 bluray) to test stuff with. By stuff I mean intermediate cables, switch boxes, scalers, component video vs. HDMI, distribution amps, AVR built-in component switches, etc. Finding reviews on this stuff (I trust) is impossible and I'm so thankful I can now do it myself. It may be time to invest in a colorimeter, too.

Quick review: Very quiet, even in shut down mode. No light leakage. Power zoom and focus work better than anticipated (using +/- buttons for such things can be aggravating but they've implemented it pretty well, almost as good as rotary knobs).

No discrete power or input IR commands . No red/green/blue dead or hot pixels. No noticeable vertical banding but that is very program material related so too early to tell. Smooth screen still works great. 7 HD inputs on the back but no direct IR commands to get to them, you have to go in a circle to get to the one you want. Ugh!

Black level is good but I wouldn't say great. Maybe great as LCD's go but LCD's are terrible at this so what can I say? With the dynamic iris on an all black screen is quite dark but what good is that? I'm using a 1.78 AR homemade BOC screen but I may be converting to gray or probably Dazian Celtic blah-blah acoustically transparent which I bought but never used with my old projector.

Using "cinema one, color temp +1" things are still too red so I have to bump down the saturation some or one gets that "LCD red" look. I've calibrated by eye using SD Avia, Sony bluray movie secret test patterns, DVE HD Basics, HD HQV Benchmark, and "dead pixel buddy" from my computer.

What good is the built-in "waveform monitor" that "self adjusts" yet can't actually view the image it is throwing? That's a silly gimmick, right?

1-100 I give it an 87. If an ISF dude fixes the colors I'd bump that to 93. If a gray screen or filter fixes the blacks I'd give it better marks but that's sort of "cheating".

P.S. I don't give HQV test scores because some of them are subjective, especially the noise evaluation parts, so I don't consider that hard science. I can say that the PTAE3000U passes most of the jaggie/film/video resolution tests on that disc through HDMI at least, component is borderline in passing the 1080i resolution tests but that may be my bluray machine, not the projector.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Old 11-03-2008, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post

I have 16 hrs now on mine and about half of that was test patterns!

What good is the built-in "waveform monitor" that "self adjusts" yet can't actually view the image it is throwing? That's a silly gimmick, right?

1-100 I give it an 87. If an ISF dude fixes the colors I'd bump that to 93. If a gray screen or filter fixes the blacks I'd give it better marks but that's sort of "cheating".

I've put a few hours on mine already mostly test patterns too. I've never bothered with the AE2000/3000 automatic calibration after I realised that few test patterns have only 0 to 100 IRE in them. If they contain BTB or WTW then it messes up the calibration. I use the waveform monitor as a manual aid to setting up and it's helped me understand how the controls work.

I don't consider using an ND filter is "cheating" as long as the image is still bright enough, who cares? I do wish the AE3000 had a manual iris as well as the dynamic one to allow brightness control like the JVC HD350/750 (RS10/20).

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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Old 11-03-2008, 04:32 PM
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But the projector can only analyze the incoming signal. It has no way of knowing what kind of an image it is producing because it doesn't know how reflective your screen is, is it white or gray, the gain, the throw distance, the light control of your room.... These things aren't slightly important; they are absolutely critical.

Maybe next year they will have a built-in camera that will watch the screen, send a test signal, and calibrate automatically, but for now I think the feature is useless (unless there is something I'm just not getting).

There were (are?) projectors with built-in video cameras for self adjustment but I think they were for converging 3 tube CRT designs and not black level and such.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Old 11-03-2008, 04:59 PM
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I stand ready to be flamed here, but for black level setting at least, I don't see what difference your room makes: If the PJ is showing 0 IRE above the 0% line on the monitor then that is loosing contrast. Equally setting the brightness too low so that 0 IRE goes below 0% will surely crush blacks.

I'd argue the same for 100 IRE and 100% on the monitor too. Though I would agree that the RGB, colour and tint settings will be effected by the room. Using the monitor as a start isn't a bad thing and it helps to understand what all those controls do, IMHO.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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Old 11-03-2008, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

I stand ready to be flamed here, but for black level setting at least, I don't see what difference your room makes:

Light that is reflected off the screen and into the room, will contaminate the projected image if it is again reflected by bright objects back onto the screen. Bright objects such as white walls, ceiling or even light colored furniture and flooring.

Anything that contributes to keeping reflected light from getting back to the screen will enhance contrast and better black reproduction.

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Old 11-03-2008, 05:05 PM
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There were (are?) projectors with built-in video cameras for self adjustment but I think they were for converging 3 tube CRT designs and not black level and such.

Not CRT. I believe few years ago it was a Marantz single chip DLP model that had a built in tri-stim "self-calibrator" for gray scale and color. For what ever reason it was quickly dropped.
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Old 11-03-2008, 05:11 PM
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m. zillch -- Did someone say it was "self-calibrating"? As you said, that it cannot do, and any statement, to the effect that it can, is pure BS. The waveform monitor is just another tool which can be used, by a knowledgeable owner, to help calibrate his system. Like any calibrating tool, it does not have to be used.

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Old 11-03-2008, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

If the PJ is showing 0 IRE above the 0% line on the monitor then that is loosing contrast.

Just tighten it.

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Old 11-03-2008, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

m. zillch -- Did someone say it was "self-calibrating"? As you said, that it cannot do, and any statement, to the effect that it can, is pure BS.

It calls it "Auto adjust". I assume it is analogous to "auto color" on older TVs. Generally such circuits introduced red push (makes flesh tones almost always non-martian despite stupid consumer tint adjustments) and/or bluish whites (just like your laundry detergent! ) which humans tend to like despite being inaccurate and it draws the eye on the wall of TVs on the showroom floor at circuit shity.

Auto black level/ white level could be like "auto levels" in Adobe Photoshop, but I don't know, nor does anyone that could easily be contacted at Panasonic. All you'd get from them would be script monkeys reading the manual back to you.

Maybe I should set my carefully derived settings in a memory and then monkey around with this junk before I condemn it as being stupid. (When I get the time)

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Old 11-03-2008, 07:14 PM
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Two more questions. [if only they used correct terminology instead of Pana speak/ techno jargon I wouldn't have these questions ]:

What the frick is "detail clarity" on/off. Best I can tell it is a high frequency bump (peak) at the highest frequencies only. The 1080 lines of horizontal resolution in my test patterns (for example SMPTE 133) become brighter and slightly more defined on my component input (not too bad a thing actually assuming it doesn't also introduce more noise. No added EE seems added so that's good. I need to test more).

Or "cinema reality" on/off. I'm thinking it is 3:2 pull down or some other pull down for interlaced images but thats just a guess. Am I really expected to turn it on for 1080i /480i and then off when I switch to 480p/720p/1080p material? Not happening! It is deep in the advanced menu. No "auto" option for this one, Panny? Or does "on" really mean "auto"?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Old 11-03-2008, 07:27 PM
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I found the first secret menu. As with previous models, at the top first option of the "options" menu, "input guide", hold in the enter button for about 5 seconds.

You get things like flicker adjust, "self check" for fan /lamp temp. diagnostics, "special vs normal setup mode" (?), HDMI "hot plug" (?), initialize (resets everything including lamp timer?), HPLL (?), and HDMI EDID normal/pc.

Thought some people might want to know.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there is no concept of "accounting for taste". We don't "pick" the level of bass any more than we get to pick the ending of a play. High fidelity is an unbiased, neutral, exact copy (or "reproduction") of the original source's tonal balance, timing, dynamics, etc..

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Old 11-03-2008, 07:48 PM
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I received my PT-AE3000 from Projector People today.
This unit replaces an Infocus 7205.
I'm projecting from about 16' onto a 110" diag 16x9 Firehawk.

First impressions:

The picture is a nice improvement in color saturation, brightness, and contrast over the 7205 when operated in "Normal" mode.

As for black level, well it's marginally better. I expected to be blown away (since my point of reference is a 4 yr old pj)- I wasn't. It's actually much higher than I had expected. Oh well, for the price I'm not going to complain too much.

It's much quieter than the Infocus, but not silent. I have it mounted about 6.5' from floor level, and about 1' rearward of my viewing position- and I can hear it. It's much quieter than my InFocus, but those expecting a stealth performance might be disappointed.

"Mode 2"- it's not what people have made it out to be. It's actually a lot more subtle than I was prepared for. It definitely contributes to a sharper image, but to say that the resulting effect is anything more than "sharper" is a stretch. A friend recently purchased a Phillips flat screen (~50") with 120Hz refresh- that image is definitely lifelike to a fault (my wife described it as being similar to watching a play). I expected the Panasonic to exhibit the same effect (for better or worse), but it's not really in the same ballpark. Also, it doesn't completely eliminate motion blur. Objects in motion are still softer than when at rest, just not as much so as compared with frame creation set to off. And yes, I'm sure it was in the correct mode. The difference between on and off was evident. It just wasn't profound.

In all, it doesn't live up to some of the hype, but given the price point it's a pj I can live with for the next couple years. Was it worth $2000 over the $500 cost of an overdue bulb replacement for my 7205? Probably.

Except...

Mine has a dead vertical column of pixels (actually, it looks like it might be two columns) about 3" in from the right side of my image. It shows up as a bright magenta band in AT&T's commercials with the orange back field. On a white field, it's a yellow column. In normal material, it's an "off color" column.
It's actually surprisingly noticeable, and once you know it's there, well, you can't not notice.

I've turned the unit off at 2 hours of bulb time pending a response from PP. Unfortunately, by the time I'd thought of taking a photo, the lamp counter had already reached the two hour limit for returns. (correction- it's actually a 4 hour limit, but I already have it taken down).

Andre
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arobot View Post

I received my PT-AE3000 from Projector People today.
...It's much quieter than the Infocus, but not silent. I have it mounted about 6.5" from floor level, and about 1' rearward of my viewing position- and I can hear it. It's much quieter than my InFocus, but those expecting a stealth performance might be disappointed...

Andre

Is your projector shelf mounted, or hanging inverted? When hanging inverted in ceiling mode the fan noise doubles compared to desk mode.
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:46 PM
 
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Originally Posted by arobot View Post




"Mode 2"- it's not what people have made it out to be. It's actually a lot more subtle than I was prepared for. It definitely contributes to a sharper image, but to say that the resulting effect is anything more than "sharper" is a stretch. A friend recently purchased a Phillips flat screen (~50") with 120Hz refresh- that image is definitely lifelike to a fault (my wife described it as being similar to watching a play). I expected the Panasonic to exhibit the same effect (for better or worse), but it's not really in the same ballpark. Also, it doesn't completely eliminate motion blur. Objects in motion are still softer than when at rest, just not as much so as compared with frame creation set to off. And yes, I'm sure it was in the correct mode. The difference between on and off was evident. It just wasn't profound.



Andre

Are you sure you had the mode 2 working correctly?...For it to work, after switching to mode 2 you also have to have frame response set to "fast"...until I did this, I didn't see any effect with only mode 2 set.
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Old 11-03-2008, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dogone View Post

Are you sure you had the mode 2 working correctly?...For it to work, after switching to mode 2 you also have to have frame response set to "fast"...until I did this, I didn't see any effect with only mode 2 set.

LOL. Switching to fast turns off frame creation.....that was mentioned in all the reviews and in the manual.

Mode 2 doesn't look as intense as a 120Hz flat panel and it isn't supposed to. Personally, I absolutely hate the 120Hz look and find Mode 2 to be disgusting. I sometimes use Mode 1 until it also ticks me off and I just turn it off entirely.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bytehoven View Post

Anything that contributes to keeping reflected light from getting back to the screen will enhance contrast and better black reproduction.

I agree with your comments, but I can't see how putting the brightness control setting above or below the 0% marker on the monitor with a 0IRE test pattern would be correct. This is why I think the WM is a useful tool if used manually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Just tighten it.

Not sure what you meant? I was just meaning that using the WM with a 100 IRE test pattern shouldn't display above the 100% marker otherwise you will be crushing whites.

Zooming: Been there, done that, bought the lens...
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Old 11-04-2008, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

Is your projector shelf mounted, or hanging inverted? When hanging inverted in ceiling mode the fan noise doubles compared to desk mode.

Inverted, ceiling mounted. In my original post, I'd mistakenly said the projector was mounted 6.5" (inches) above floor- I've corrected it, it's 6.5' (feet)
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Old 11-04-2008, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by AWBoy View Post

LOL. Switching to fast turns off frame creation.....that was mentioned in all the reviews and in the manual.

According to the review I read on Projector Central you are wrong:

"(By the way, we tried to activate Frame Creation while setting Frame Response to "fast" to see if the projector would explode. Apparently, the engineers anticipated this. The AE3000 simply defaults to Frame Creation and ignores the fast Frame Response command. The AE3000 knows when it is in the hands of a stupid user.)"
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Old 11-04-2008, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

If the PJ is showing 0 IRE above the 0% line on the monitor then that is loosing contrast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew4msu View Post

Just tighten it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

INot sure what you meant? I was just meaning that using the WM with a 100 IRE test pattern shouldn't display above the 100% marker otherwise you will be crushing whites.

Stew4msu was just poking fun at your typo. "Loosing" vs "losing". A common typo, I have to say.

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Old 11-04-2008, 08:55 AM
 
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Can we get some general impressions on this projector other than all this technical ****. I just wanna know if people are blown away by this projector or not. 37 pages and there hasnt been any real good reviews.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:02 AM
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If you read all the stuff on these forums you may never buy a pj because everyone tells you to wait because something better is going to come out. Then when the better comes out they put it down that it is not good enough and has all these flaws. Then they tell you to wait because something better is coming out and the cycle continues. Go look and listen if you can but if you can't, YES, I am totally blown away with the picture of the 3000. There is nothing within 2 to 3 times its price range that can touch this machine. As for a review, what I would say would be knocked down later. Then you would question my review and start looking else where. It is a great pj and you won't be disappointed.
You will now get the spiel from some others that this is not true and that you should get a JVC which is almost 3x the price. I am happy and I am sure you will be also unless you are one of the guys on here that has to nitpick at every thing so you can sound intelligent.
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:24 AM
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[quote=Ingeborgdot;15003070]There is nothing within 2 to 3 times its price range that can touch this machine. /QUOTE]

Are you sure about that?

At or below $2500 US dollars, the AE3000 is a compelling projector. You add $300-$1500 to the pot and there are some serious alternatives. You 2x or 3x the price, and you're into the realm of some of the best projectors currently available, (or soon to be available).

Let's keep it real.

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Old 11-04-2008, 09:27 AM
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I forgot about the Sony 10 which is $700 more. After that is is about 2.5 times the price. What projectors are you referring to after the Sony 10? I may have missed one.
You need to relax also. 2x 2500 is 5000. What is 5000 that is close to this?
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arobot View Post

The picture is a nice improvement in color saturation, brightness, and contrast over the 7205 when operated in "Normal" mode.

As for black level, well it's marginally better. I expected to be blown away (since my point of reference is a 4 yr old pj)- I wasn't. It's actually much higher than I had expected. Oh well, for the price I'm not going to complain too much.

Andre

Did you test the black level in one of the Cinema, or Color modes?

I have an AE2000, and the black level is lower when the internal color filter is in the light path. Normal and Dynamic do not use the filter, so are bighter, with higher black level.

Art
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Ingeborgdot View Post

I forgot about the Sony 10 which is $700 more. After that is is about 2.5 times the price. What projectors are you referring to after the Sony 10? I may have missed one.
You need to relax also. 2x 2500 is 5000. What is 5000 that is close to this?

Nitpick alert:

Is it "within 2 to 3 times its price range "" Or, is it "about 2.5 times the price"? Or, is it "2x 2500 is 5000"?

Seriously... the RS10. Oh, except it's not available yet. And, throw another $450 or so at it for a used Lumagen Vision because it's got color problems and no CMS. Do THAT and... killer!
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BudSMoke View Post

Can we get some general impressions on this projector other than all this technical ****. I just wanna know if people are blown away by this projector or not. 37 pages and there hasnt been any real good reviews.

As I previously said, I think my own expectations were higher given the hype.

In particular, black level is not what I hoped it would be. A black field still lights up my Firehawk to a highly visible grey.

Dark scenes look nearly as muddy as with my previous InFocus 7205. Shadow detail in dark scenes, well, also muddier than I would have expected, but to be fair, I'd only performed brightness and contrast "calibration" in normal mode using the standard test patterns.

Personally, I'm not "blown away". I do think it's a reasonable upgrade in image quality from my prior pj, and so far I don't know that there exists a better value. However, it's not the order of magnitude performance advance one might expect reading some of the end-user reviews, not to mention ProjectorCentral.

For me, the most important parameter in evaluating this particular projector is performance relative to price. If it provides 80% (?) of the performance of a model competing at double or triple the price, then I'm willing to live with the tradeoffs. This is mainly because I fully anticipate the resale value of any pj to drop to nearly zero by the time I'll likely want to next upgrade (~3yrs). For instance, I just gave away my 7205 to a friend, it simply wasn't worth trying to sell. So, the money saved over a JVC has already paid for the next upgrade...
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Old 11-04-2008, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Ingeborgdot View Post

IYou need to relax also.

Hey, I'm relaxed.

You really need to do your homework. There are new models from JVC, Epson & Mitsubishi that will equal and may surpass the AE3000.

I'm just trying to decide if I should except delivery of the AE3000 due to arrive today, or just refuse delivery and save on the $$$ I might to spend sending it back.

I'm inclined to accept the AE3000 and proceed with the comparison to the HW10, even though some AVS readers may feel any comparisons might be overly biased by some useless objective technical criteria.

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