Who has gone from HD1000 to X10 ? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 03-29-2009, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Has anyone upgraded from the HD1000 to X10? I'm wondering how the black levels compare? The offsets are about the same, aren't they? Thanks.
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post #2 of 29 Old 03-29-2009, 01:54 PM
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I just ordered one and have an HD1000 now, so I'll try to put something together. I can do some side by side screenshots too using the Dual DVI output on my HTPC.
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post #3 of 29 Old 03-29-2009, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot. The reviews are great, other than the black levels. If the black levels are as good or better than my HD1000, I'd be happy.

No one else has done this upgrade?
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post #4 of 29 Old 03-30-2009, 10:51 AM
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BTW, I talked to someone at Projector People today. The X10 has been discontinued and they're just selling out stock (and PP is already sold out). So sounds like get one now if you want one.
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post #5 of 29 Old 03-30-2009, 12:43 PM
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Amazon/Tiger Direct still has them. I got one from them last week. Just a note. I ordered one based on the fact that I was thinking about going back to DLP from my current Sanyo PLV-Z2000 LCD unit. The price was just too good to pass up. Not one regret. The image on this thing is fantastic especially considering the price. Now I have to sell my Sanyo.

Randy J. Fisher, CTS-D
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post #6 of 29 Old 03-30-2009, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher View Post

Amazon/Tiger Direct still has them. I got one from them last week. Just a note. I ordered one based on the fact that I was thinking about going back to DLP from my current Sanyo PLV-Z2000 LCD unit. The price was just too good to pass up. Not one regret. The image on this thing is fantastic especially considering the price. Now I have to sell my Sanyo.

____________________________________________________________ _____

What do you think of the blacks? I'm trying to find out how they compare to my HD1000. Thanks.
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post #7 of 29 Old 03-31-2009, 04:40 AM
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Jim McC, the blacks are actually quite good. Not nearly as bad as I thought they might be. This machine is much brighter than my Sanyo so some of what I am seeing is based on the fact that the real contrast ratio is higher because of that fact. Only really, really dark scenes suffer at all. Plus it accomplishes what it does without the use of trick iris's and image AI so there are no lamp compression artifacts. My first (2) projectors were DLP units (X1 and 4805). After that I went to LCD with a Sanyo Z4 and then the Z2000. Part of me always missed the look of DLP. They are just so damn sharp. Anyway I couldn't pass up a 1080p DLP unit for that price and I am glad to be back. The image this thing puts out is flat out beautiful. Even my girlfriend commented. The only proplem I have is with it being almost too bright on my smallish screen @ 70" diag. The light can be stopped down further with the manual iris though.

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post #8 of 29 Old 04-02-2009, 06:55 PM
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I got the X10 tonight. I haven't had it side by side with the HD1000 yet, but here are some quick observations.

Color calibration:

Why can't other manufacturers do better OTB calibrations?!??! X10 is definitely better here. I could never get the HD1000 to look as good as the X10 does with default settings.

Black level:

Side by side is the only way to know for sure, but it seems very similar to the HD1000. If you're looking for an improvement in absolute black level, the X10 probably isn't for you. You can stop down the manual iris and improve it a lot, but the overall image gets much dimmer also. If you have a small screen with a light controlled room, this might be an option though.

Sound level:

HD1000 wins here. Although the X10 has a very tolerable low level sound, it is a little louder than the HD1000, definitely on high lamp. Not so much on low lamp.

Sharpness:

Even viewing 720p material, the X10 appears sharper. My HD1000 never had great focus uniformity. The X10 I have has great uniformity OTOH.

Brightness:

The X10 is definitely brighter with the iris full open, but it has a brand new lamp vs. almost 1000hrs on my HD1000's lamp. If the X10 isn't brighter, it's because it isn't cheating with white segment and poorer color calibration.


Overall it's a great upgrade for the money. Really the only negative is the same/similar black levels. It fits pretty much in place of the HD1000. The X10 does have a slightly longer throw and the lens is offset from center, so you may end up moving a ceiling mount slightly. I've got mine in the same place and it works fine though. Just not quite square and ended up at full telephoto zoom to get the image big enough.
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post #9 of 29 Old 04-02-2009, 07:33 PM
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I'll second most all of that.

the sharpness of the x10 is second to none. black levels are good, showing a good depth of black ie space scenes, but shadow detail is not very good. you can step down the iris, but as mentioned, the overall brightness fades considerably.

this projector with an active iris would be unstoppable. the colors are amazing, but the thing that truly pops is the razor sharp picture.

the fan noise is not the quietest, but more than tolerable, and inaudible during most any movie scene. I'm quite impressed with the ability to resize/crop the various formats to fill the screen also.

after having two lcds and 2 dlps, I think the DLP really just has a better image quality. lCDs always seem to have bit of noise in the pixels, something I cant describe well here, but I always see.
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post #10 of 29 Old 04-02-2009, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chamilun View Post

I'll second most all of that.

the sharpness of the x10 is second to none. black levels are good, showing a good depth of black ie space scenes, but shadow detail is not very good. you can step down the iris, but as mentioned, the overall brightness fades considerably.

this projector with an active iris would be unstoppable. the colors are amazing, but the thing that truly pops is the razor sharp picture.

the fan noise is not the quietest, but more than tolerable, and inaudible during most any movie scene. I'm quite impressed with the ability to resize/crop the various formats to fill the screen also.

after having two lcds and 2 dlps, I think the DLP really just has a better image quality. lCDs always seem to have bit of noise in the pixels, something I cant describe well here, but I always see.

interesting... just the opposite of what the reviews have said (so-so black levels and excellent shadow detail). can't wait to check it out myself (arriving on Tuesday). BTW, what kind of screen do you use? I'm considering building a grey laminate screen to help out a bit with blacks.

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #11 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talon95 View Post

Color calibration:

Why can't other manufacturers do better OTB calibrations?!??! X10 is definitely better here. I could never get the HD1000 to look as good as the X10 does with default settings.

That was my first reaction when I saw it. I have seen any other projector so good in colour OOB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talon95 View Post

Sharpness:

Even viewing 720p material, the X10 appears sharper. My HD1000 never had great focus uniformity. The X10 I have has great uniformity OTOH.

It is one of the sharpest DLPs. The nearest competition in similar sharpness is the IN80 range and BenQ W5000/20000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by talon95 View Post

Brightness:

The X10 is definitely brighter with the iris full open, but it has a brand new lamp vs. almost 1000hrs on my HD1000's lamp. If the X10 isn't brighter, it's because it isn't cheating with white segment and poorer color calibration.

The X10 will be brighter as it uses a 300 watt lamp and that also is a one of the reason for it's not so jaw dropping black level. But it's ansi contrast is 500+ making intra scene contrast jump at you with immense pop and natural colors and the sharpness adds the depth to the image immensely
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post #12 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 04:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anirbana View Post

The X10 will be brighter as it uses a 300 watt lamp and that also is a one of the reason for it's not so jaw dropping black level. But it's ansi contrast is 500+ making intra scene contrast jump at you with immense pop and natural colors and the sharpness adds the depth to the image immensely

This does bring up a complaint I have with all of the reviews I read. Nobody ever accounts for the overall brightness of the projectors when comparing absolute black level. I see comments comparing, for example, 400 lumen projectors to a 800+ lumen projectors saying that the 400 lumen projector has so much lower absolute black level.

Never any effort is made to equalize brightness before comparing. This is really what I'd like to compare between the X10 and HD1000. Stop the iris down on the X10 until brightness is comparable, then compare absolute black level. If I have time, I'll do try to do this over the weekend.
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post #13 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talon95 View Post

This does bring up a complaint I have with all of the reviews I read. Nobody ever accounts for the overall brightness of the projectors when comparing absolute black level. I see comments comparing, for example, 400 lumen projectors to a 800+ lumen projectors saying that the 400 lumen projector has so much lower absolute black level.

Never any effort is made to equalize brightness before comparing. This is really what I'd like to compare between the X10 and HD1000. Stop the iris down on the X10 until brightness is comparable, then compare absolute black level. If I have time, I'll do try to do this over the weekend.

When I tested the X10 at one of the UK forum member's place we stopped down the IRIS to 0 and then opened it up slowly to get the best performance. I felt 18-36 was great for black level and you can see how the image depth increases as you stop the IRIS. I don't see anyone willing to see the X10 at IRIS 100 unless they have a 150 inch screen or bigger.

In my IN80, which has additional 100 lumens and little more contrast 8000:1 with IRIS, I mostly view at IRIS 18 and some cases at IRIS 9. This really improves the black level.

When using the IRIS i suggest the foloowing so that you won't feel the brightness dropping as most cases it is our eye that is tricked.

On a mixed scene go to the IRIS control. and activate it. Now close your eyes and stop it down to 0. Open your eyes and watch for 2 mins. Slowly your eye will adjust. Now increase the IRIS by one step with your eye open. You will see yourself appreciating a low IRIS setting. Stop at a postion where it looks film like and not plasma like.
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post #14 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 06:40 AM
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the projector has not been mounted on the ceiling yet, as the throw range is very different from my previous setup. currently about 100" screen.

for my almost ignorant opinion:

I just re-read the PR review again, and its interesting how 'contrast' is both defined and used. If you look at the screen shots comparing the x10 to the hc5500, look at the spaceship from The Fifth Element. The detail on the HC5500 looks pretty bad to my eye. For shadow detail, if you look at the Clint Eastwood shot, look at the face.

The contrast, or what I personally consider the difference between bright white and black, appears to really pop due to the exceptional brightness. If you step the iris down, you lose considerable contrast, as the overall image just seems to be too dim. maybe not so with a smaller image size, but I don't know. If you watched an entire movie with iris at say 50 or 60, Im sure your eyes may adjust. but the image with iris fully open is so striking, you just don't want to give that up.
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post #15 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 06:49 AM
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The Iris should not decrese contrast and both black and white are reduced the same amount. What you are seeing is a decrease in brightness.
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post #16 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chamilun View Post

If you watched an entire movie with iris at say 50 or 60, Im sure your eyes may adjust. but the image with iris fully open is so striking, you just don't want to give that up.

The preference on brightness and contrast and pop varies from person to person. With IRIS at 100 the image looks like a huge plasma and wonderful for TV material. At least for me. But for movies I use a low IRIS setting as it increases the depth of the image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwlaw99 View Post

The Iris should not decrese contrast and both black and white are reduced the same amount. What you are seeing is a decrease in brightness.

I don't know the exact science but using the IRIS the X10's native 2500:1 On/Off CR can be increased to 7500:1 by closing the IRIS. The same goes for any PJ with manual IRIS. And too much brightness actually kills the contrast. So when the light output is reduced using the IRIS you reach one stage where the image displays the right contrast and brightness based on your screen size and other environmental factors.

In a very bright sunny day, if you look at a flower you may not notice the details on the petal as there is too much brightness killing the necessary contrast to differentiate the detail. Wear a sunglass and you will see clearly. To see the same flower later in the day you won't need the sunglass. The same principle goes with IRIS or use of ND2 filter. You use the IRIS to strike a ballance of best lumen output on your screen and environemt to make the contrast work for you in the best way...
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post #17 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anirbana View Post


I don't know the exact science but using the IRIS the X10's native 2500:1 On/Off CR can be increased to 7500:1 by closing the IRIS. The same goes for any PJ with manual IRIS. And too much brightness actually kills the contrast. So when the light output is reduced using the IRIS you reach one stage where the image displays the right contrast and brightness based on your screen size and other environmental factors.

Oh sigh,

No, they get the 7500:1 by opening the iris to 100 and measuring bright white, then stopping it all the way down to zero and measuring black. It's a marketing gimmick.
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post #18 of 29 Old 04-03-2009, 04:46 PM
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Ok guys, I got the black level comparison done. These screenshots aren't beautiful, but they illustrate what I saw during testing.

I have to say I was a little surprised. The X10 definitely has a lower black level than the HD1000. As you can see in the images below, even when the X10 is much brighter (100 iris), the black levels are about the same. What I actually observed was that the X10 was still slightly better in this case (not really illustrated in image).

Then with the iris all the way down to 27 to equalize brightness, of course the X10 is much better. I will say that 27 may have been slightly too low after looking at both of them a little more, but in any case the X10 is much much lower anyway, even at a setting of 45 which is definitely as bright or brighter than the HD1000.

I'm sure the HD1000 was closer in brightness to the X10 with a new lamp, but mine has about 800 hours on it and it shows.


Here's the setup and pics:

- X10 is on the left, HD1000 is on the right
- Both projectors throwing approximately 60" images side by side on my 130" screen.
- Both projectors on low lamp
- Brilliant color off on both
- Best image modes on both (6500k on X10, cinema on HD1000)
- Brightness/contrast adjusted correctly

This image is with the X10 iris at 100 (full open) projecting a fully black image



100 iris again, with PowerDVD splash screen to show brightness:



27 iris this time to equalize brightness:



27 iris, black image:

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post #19 of 29 Old 04-04-2009, 06:11 AM
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yesterday, I raised the brightness setting and was much more impressed with the shadow detail. nice screen shots. shows exactly what I am seeing and that is black level is pretty good!
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post #20 of 29 Old 06-23-2009, 05:05 AM
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is it just me or does the 1000 look sharper, more detail..???
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post #21 of 29 Old 06-23-2009, 06:23 AM
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Those screenshots are not even close to high enough quality to give you an indication of sharpness. They're only to show relative brightness and black level differences.

As I've stated before, my X10 is considerably sharper than my HD1000 even with 720p material.
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post #22 of 29 Old 06-23-2009, 07:43 AM
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just an observation from the power dvd shot..

thanks for clearing that up
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post #23 of 29 Old 06-23-2009, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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I was considering the X10, but I'm going to wait for reviews on the new Optoma HD20. It also has much less offset, 16%.
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post #24 of 29 Old 06-23-2009, 03:56 PM
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wow, i think im gonna put up my hd65 for this x10, $1200 for 1080p dlp is awesome specially considering its a bit brighter than the hd65 in its best mode. neone wanna buy a hd65 lol.

One thing i would like to know is if it does vertical stretch for CH.
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post #25 of 29 Old 06-23-2009, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal112524 View Post

One think i would like to know is if it does vertical stretch for CH.

It does, but the recessed lens, the lip around the case, and the steep offset will mean it will be a challenge to get some anamorphic lenses close enough to work. Some may not (unless you're willing to cut into the case and remove part of the lip).
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post #26 of 29 Old 06-24-2009, 10:34 AM
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I run the iris at 36 with a 110" Da Lite HCCV screen (1.1 gain). The image brightness is still very adequate. For those on the fence or just getting the X10, the iris can definitely be used on larger screens with good results.

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post #27 of 29 Old 06-24-2009, 02:02 PM
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I've got the iris set at 60-70 (forget the exact #) with my 130" DIY screen (~1.2-1.3 gain) and set to low lamp. I'll probably go to 100 as the bulb ages.
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post #28 of 29 Old 06-25-2009, 09:43 AM
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who makes the x10
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post #29 of 29 Old 06-25-2009, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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who makes the x10


Infocus
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