*Official* Optoma HD20 Thread - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 09:30 PM
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[quote=Billbofet;17070961]
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Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post


I'm not saying the Epson isn't the superior projector, but it's kind of like reviewing a Honda Accord next to a BMW 7 series. No shmit it's got more features and a better engine. My point is that the video was essentially useless to me and I'm sure a lot of people looking for a "professional" assessment of the HD20, not a commercial for the 6500.

The only thing I got out of that video is that I don't need to spend $2500 on a projector when a 1K unit will satisfy my needs. The only considerable difference that I saw was the lens shift. $1500 for that? Not for me.
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post #542 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 09:54 PM
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I got the HD20 today and first impressions are the black level is excellent, colors are highly saturated, contrast white to black looks excellent, OTB tune up looks great facel colors look natural even though image is highly saturated. Users that don't want to spend $400 on a pro ISF tune up will be fine with the OTB tunings. The projector is very bright and super quiet in econo mode. Images are very clean. More later

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post #543 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 10:27 PM
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Great to hear your thoughts guitarman, can't wait to hear more.
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post #544 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 10:31 PM
 
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[quote=jimvinny;17071017]
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Originally Posted by Billbofet View Post


The only thing I got out of that video is that I don't need to spend $2500 on a projector when a 1K unit will satisfy my needs. The only considerable difference that I saw was the lens shift. $1500 for that? Not for me.

If you put them up side by side in a room you would see the difference. You won't see a difference between them on a Youtube video, or pictures. Other notable differences would be:

Contrast
Black Level
Sharpness
FI
Build quality
Overnight replacement for warranty repairs
Shadow detail
Brightness
Light leakage?
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post #545 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconlabtech View Post

The HD20 has what is called an Image Offset and has no lens shift. The image projects entirely above the plane the PJ sits on. You would need to put this PJ upside down on a shelf in order to get the image down on the screen instead of up the ceiling.

Most of these type PJs are mounted on a ceiling mount which holds the PJ upside down and then you tell the menu to flip the image so it looks right side up.

You could mount the PJ upside down to the bottom of the shelf that you put high up on the wall.

Eh? I have my HD20 on a shelf in the back, it's not upside down, works perfectly fine. It seems you are assuming a shelf would be up high near the ceiling, my shelf is a bit under halfway up the wall.

Anyways, to answer the original question, the projector is about 9 1/2" deep, with the power cord sticking out it's about 11 inches.

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post #546 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 10:47 PM
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[quote=dysfunction26;17071227]
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Originally Posted by jimvinny View Post


If you put them up side by side in a room you would see the difference. You won't see a difference between them on a Youtube video, or pictures. Other notable differences would be:

Contrast
Black Level
Sharpness
FI
Build quality
Overnight replacement for warranty repairs
Shadow detail
Brightness
Light leakage?

I think that was me you were quoting. Not sure what happened there. Now my post says that I am quoting myself.... Strange...

Anyways, I am absolutely not questioning the "notable differences" that you mentioned. My point was that as a first time projector buyer, that video did very little to justify the $1500 difference that exists between the two. If that was the point of the video, which many seem to think it was, it seems to have failed miserably. And boy, was I not impressed with the 120hz clip at the end. I hate how that looks.
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post #547 of 3999 Old 08-26-2009, 10:53 PM
 
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[quote=jimvinny;17071265]
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Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post


I think that was me you were quoting. Not sure what happened there.

Anyways, I am absolutely not questioning the "notable differences" that you mentioned. My point was that as a first time projector buyer, that video did very little to justify the $1500 difference that exists between the two. If that was the point of the video, which many seem to think it was, it seems to have failed miserably. And boy, was I not impressed with the 120hz clip at the end. I hate how that looks.

There are 3 settings of FI, low (96HZ) is the best setting I leave low on at all times. Medium and High are really dramatic and I use high for animated films, and PS3 but nothing else.
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post #548 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 12:09 AM
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So which of those projectors looked like it had more accurate color out of the box? The backgrounds in the space scenes looked completely different! Check out the field of stars behind the space ships!
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post #549 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 12:35 AM
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The hd20 is going to be perfect for football season!
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post #550 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 12:40 AM
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That Epson/HD20 review was for sure biased. Every salesman is out to make the most he can - most are not looking to meet the base needs of the customer.

One thing that seemed wonky to me was the black levels statement. Notice that he was sure to talk about how it was even obvious in the areas off screen? Yeah, the HD20 looked like it had greyish bars...but notice right around 3:48-3:49 when he is playing around with the shift. He brings the Epson screen over and up close to the HD20...and all of a sudden he overlaps...the Epson screen appears to go light, fading to match the lightness of the grey bars. It appears he noticed too, as he quickly jars the Epson back into it's own area.

It's a sales pitch trying to make sure the people with cash don't start veering towards the budget DLP's. There are lots of people out there who will be easily swayed by the smooth talking sales men who bash on anything budget. Same as I have lots of friends who fall for the $85 dollar HDMI cable every time...and just can't bring themselves to believe they can achieve the same image from a $3 monoprice cable.

Additionally...of course people who bought a 2500+ projector are going to come in and claim that there is /no/ way that a 1000- projector can compare. No one wants to feel as though their large investment is invalidated...it's classic...

Really looking forward to an unbiased and educated review from Guitarman.
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post #551 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 02:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLOCK109 View Post

I did notice though, on the HD20 there were several area where the highlights were blown out.

I noticed that too. My first PJ the Optoma H27 was a great PJ. awesome black level and contrast but suffered White crush or blown highlights. Contrast had to be turned dow a lot to avoid it but you loose out on tto much contrast for other pasrt of the image.

I noticed the same with the HD65 which I had over a year but it was less than H27. I hope this is not an issue and more related to the camera since the camera will compensate the exposure by relative metering and since the HD20 is brighter the highlights are looking bit blown.

I know it is a video on internet but colors look better on the Epson.
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post #552 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdholmes View Post

That Epson/HD20 review was for sure biased. Every salesman is out to make the most he can - most are not looking to meet the base needs of the customer.

One thing that seemed wonky to me was the black levels statement. Notice that he was sure to talk about how it was even obvious in the areas off screen? Yeah, the HD20 looked like it had greyish bars...but notice right around 3:48-3:49 when he is playing around with the shift. He brings the Epson screen over and up close to the HD20...and all of a sudden he overlaps...the Epson screen appears to go light, fading to match the lightness of the grey bars. It appears he noticed too, as he quickly jars the Epson back into it's own area.

It's a sales pitch trying to make sure the people with cash don't start veering towards the budget DLP's. There are lots of people out there who will be easily swayed by the smooth talking sales men who bash on anything budget. Same as I have lots of friends who fall for the $85 dollar HDMI cable every time...and just can't bring themselves to believe they can achieve the same image from a $3 monoprice cable.

Additionally...of course people who bought a 2500+ projector are going to come in and claim that there is /no/ way that a 1000- projector can compare. No one wants to feel as though their large investment is invalidated...it's classic...

Really looking forward to an unbiased and educated review from Guitarman.


So I guess if you have anything negative to say about the projector than you are biased and uneducated The "Black levels are excellent" comment had me scratching my head and would lead me to the opposite conclusion to the statement "unbiased and educated review". I am not trying to start a flame war I just dont like it when someone has anything negative to say about a projector they get bashed and insulted. I actually welcome any constructive criticism on any projector review because I want to know its weaknesses in helping with my decision. We are all entitled to our opinion and I think any weakness a projector has should be pointed out.

Anyway I have no clue why PP would compare a $999 budget dlp to a $2500 lcd...The whole comparison was pointless and idiotic. The only thing I got out of it was the lcd has a lot more lens shift and zoom and the stupid 60vs 120 hz comment. Screenshots and youtube videos comparing projectors are worthless.
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post #553 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 04:22 AM
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So are you guys generally happy with the HD20? I'm about to pull the trigger on this projector without waiting a few more weeks for the other entry level ones and their professional reviews to come out. My Sanyo PLV-Z3 is now shot and I need a replacement ASAP. This should be worlds better than my previous, right? Thanks!
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post #554 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 05:15 AM
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I am with you on this one isutommyt. I'm in the U.K right now for work, and when i come back i plan on ordering this unit. All the review's i have found on this seem to be either one sided or not enough information nor any detailed test ran.
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post #555 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 06:11 AM
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I am holding out for more reviews on the HD20 and the Vivatek H1080FD. The Optoma seems to have a nicer legacy for budget projectors, but the Vivatek has slightly better stats (who knows?), but it also has the side vent vs. the front vent. Maybe it's more silent and little to no light leakage. Again, I'm just speculating, so I can't wait for more information to spill out.

With projectors, I plan to approach it like I do computers. I'm totally happy with the horsepower and features I can get with a $500 computer vs. a $2000 computer since I know in two/three years it'll all catch up and I can just buy another $500 computer. It saves me a ton of money to stay a few feet back from the cutting edge of technology.

I have a Mits HD1000U right now that only set me back $1000 three years ago - couldn't be happier. I'm sure in three years, we'll be looking back on frame interpolation and laughing at it since we'll have 3d to argue over
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post #556 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isutommyt View Post

So are you guys generally happy with the HD20? I'm about to pull the trigger on this projector without waiting a few more weeks for the other entry level ones and their professional reviews to come out. My Sanyo PLV-Z3 is now shot and I need a replacement ASAP. This should be worlds better than my previous, right? Thanks!

It should be much better. I never had a SANYO PLV-Z3, but I had an Optoma HD-73, which I was very happy with for 2-1/2 years. This projector is noticeably better, but only really strikingly so on high-quality input. To me the image on a Pixar disc or "Wild China" (after calibration) is now pretty near perfect, but it was darn good before. The variable quality of DISH network HD offerings has me flipping channels for something good enough to show off what this projector can do. When the signal is good, the projector shines.

The black levels are excellent on my gray screen - much deeper than on the HD-73. (although that opinion apparently makes me unprofessional and biased, according to our excitable friend up there). I have to go within a foot or two to see screen door. I personally have not experienced any noticeable RBE or judder. I am very happy with it. I'm sure something will come along in a few years with a price-performance ratio to blow it away, but since I paid $2000 for my old HD-73 and just sold it for $400 to buy the HD20 for $999, the upgrade was totally painless and more than worth it.
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post #557 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 07:16 AM
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Like I said previously, it looked to me like the HD20 was uncalibrated in that film and I think that's what the biggest difference in the video was. I bet if the HD20 were calibrated properly they would look much closer.

That's why I was pointing out the starfield because with the Epson you lose a ton of stars, it looks so much better on the HD20.
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post #558 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 07:28 AM
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Well, I just pulled the trigger. Now the waiting game begins and the countless refreshes on the shipping updates. I have never really calibrated my previous projector as it just came with the house and seemed good enough to me. Maybe I should look into calibrating this one. Time to start looking for some calibration material. Anyone have any links to start me out on? Thanks!
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post #559 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 07:39 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie085 View Post

Like I said previously, it looked to me like the HD20 was uncalibrated in that film and I think that's what the biggest difference in the video was. I bet if the HD20 were calibrated properly they would look much closer.

That's why I was pointing out the starfield because with the Epson you lose a ton of stars, it looks so much better on the HD20.

Hmmm, I doubt you can base how many stars you "lose" based on a Youtube video. I hope Art compares the Optoma to the Epson in his review, you will then see why the Epson is priced $1,500 more than the Optoma. If you put them up next to eachother (based on the specs) both calibrated the Epson would win hands down. You would have to be delusional to think the Optoma would look almost as good.
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post #560 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr2Spyder View Post

So I guess if you have anything negative to say about the projector than you are biased and uneducated The "Black levels are excellent" comment had me scratching my head and would lead me to the opposite conclusion to the statement "unbiased and educated review". I am not trying to start a flame war I just dont like it when someone has anything negative to say about a projector they get bashed and insulted. I actually welcome any constructive criticism on any projector review because I want to know its weaknesses in helping with my decision. We are all entitled to our opinion and I think any weakness a projector has should be pointed out.

Anyway I have no clue why PP would compare a $999 budget dlp to a $2500 lcd...The whole comparison was pointless and idiotic. The only thing I got out of it was the lcd has a lot more lens shift and zoom and the stupid 60vs 120 hz comment. Screenshots and youtube videos comparing projectors are worthless.

I have no problem with someone saying something negative about the projector - providing they have something to base it on. IE - having both projectors with them or having used them both. But you can't just say, "There's no way they would compare!" Etc...when you haven't tried them both. The PP review had the right circumstances on which to base a review, but it was clearly a sales pitch and we caught them on some of their tricks...so yeah...biased salesperson trying to make more money. Show me someone doing this kind of thing who has nothing to gain - that's what I want to see.
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post #561 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr2Spyder View Post

So I guess if you have anything negative to say about the projector than you are biased and uneducated The "Black levels are excellent" comment had me scratching my head and would lead me to the opposite conclusion to the statement "unbiased and educated review". I am not trying to start a flame war I just dont like it when someone has anything negative to say about a projector they get bashed and insulted.

I think people took offense not to your negative "review" but in the inflammatory comments. Your first sentence was "what a POS" or something like that. Perhaps if you had comported yourself a little more professionally people might not have responded in kind...

Two things you can take away from the youtube clip (not a review, it is after all an online store of course their going to push a higher profit unit) is that the blacks in the letterbox bars are slightly elevated in the HD20, and you really can tell the frame interpolation effects in a youtube video. That said a comparison between a mid-level LCD (a fine projector which I have seen in action) and an entry level projector was a little silly of PP...

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post #562 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isutommyt View Post

Well, I just pulled the trigger. Now the waiting game begins and the countless refreshes on the shipping updates. I have never really calibrated my previous projector as it just came with the house and seemed good enough to me. Maybe I should look into calibrating this one. Time to start looking for some calibration material. Anyone have any links to start me out on? Thanks!

If you have some Pixar or LucasFilm discs, you have a basic calibration program right there. Look on the main menu for something like "THX" or "Home Theater Optimization". For much more complete calibration, get Digital Video Essentials or Avia. Both are available at Amazon, and many other places. DVE is available in DVD and Blu-Ray, I think Avia just in DVD. Either should be fine. I used both. You could hire a pro, but if you could do that, you'd probably be in the $3,000+ forum.
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post #563 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 08:55 AM
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I dont know why they would compare the optoma to the epson, there is a 150% difference in pricing, maybe they should compare the epson to a 6250.00 projector and see how it does. Bottom line the optoma is a great product at its price level, i am 100% satisfied for what i paid for it
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post #564 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr2Spyder View Post


Anyway I have no clue why PP would compare a $999 budget dlp to a $2500 lcd...The whole comparison was pointless and idiotic. The only thing I got out of it was the lcd has a lot more lens shift and zoom and the stupid 60vs 120 hz comment.

Being a complete noob to the whole fp thing, I guess I took that video a little different than most. I looked at it as showing off how good the HD20 was compared to the Epson at over twice the price. I don't know, I thought it looked pretty good. But like was said, it is hard to tell from an internet video.
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post #565 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 10:20 AM
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Well normally no, but in this video they were both setup in the same room with the same light and recorded at the same time. There for you can easily see the difference.
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post #566 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 10:26 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie085 View Post

Well normally no, but in this video they were both setup in the same room with the same light and recorded at the same time. There for you can easily see the difference.

You can't base anything off of a video. I doubt the black level on the Optoma is as good, or better than the Planar PD7130 I owned. The Epson kills the Planar in every aspect, the Planar was a $3,999.00 MSRP 720p projector, the Epson is a $2,999.00 MSRP 1080p projector.
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post #567 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 11:00 AM
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Enough with the Epson and the stupid video already. Back to the HD20.
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post #568 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

You can't base anything off of a video. I doubt the black level on the Optoma is as good, or better than the Planar PD7130 I owned. The Epson kills the Planar in every aspect, the Planar was a $3,999.00 MSRP 720p projector, the Epson is a $2,999.00 MSRP 1080p projector.

I don't understand why we have 2 pages devoted to comparing a $999 MSRP projector to a $2,999 MSRP Projector. I think what we can all hopefully agree upon, and then move on, is that for 3 times less, the Optoma looks pretty good.

Also, why do you doubt the black level without ever seeing it? What is the reasoning behind saying the HD20's black level isn't as good as a 3.5 year old Planar PD7130? If it is because it is $999, don't you know that technology gets better over time while the price drops? The Planar PD7130 came out in August of 2006 with an MSRP of $3,999. You just admitted above that the "Epson kills the Planar in every aspect", but yet that product had an MSRP of $2,999 which makes the Planar 1.33 times more expensive than the Epson.

How many times do we compare a base model Toyota Camry ($20,000) with a Mercendez-Benz E Class (around $62,000). Yes, everyone knows that the Mercedez-Benz is "better", but how much better is it to everyone? I think most people will be happy with the Toyota Camry.

This is the sub $3,000 forum, but yet we are comparing a projector at the top of that range with one at the bottom? I think for $999, this projector seems to put out a great picture and seems to be a good value for someone who can't afford the top of the line.

Let's just talk about the HD20 and leave ones that are 3 times the cost out of here.
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post #569 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianbrandt View Post

This might be a manifestation of the 70% uniformity Optoma shows on the datasheet for the HD20 (and I'm assuming the HD200x is the same in this regard). I believe "uniformity" is a measure of the "evenness of brightness" across the projected image.

Thanks for the reply. Anyone else noticing uniformity issues? Looks like
I'll be ordering a replacement for my hd200x soon anyway due to problems
with lines through the image at 1080p60. So that will give me a chance
to look at another one and compare uniformity.
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post #570 of 3999 Old 08-27-2009, 11:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by brykater14 View Post

I don't understand why we have 2 pages devoted to comparing a $999 MSRP projector to a $2,999 MSRP Projector. I think what we can all hopefully agree upon, and then move on, is that for 3 times less, the Optoma looks pretty good.

Also, why do you doubt the black level without ever seeing it? What is the reasoning behind saying the HD20's black level isn't as good as a 3.5 year old Planar PD7130? If it is because it is $999, don't you know that technology gets better over time while the price drops? The Planar PD7130 came out in August of 2006 with an MSRP of $3,999. You just admitted above that the "Epson kills the Planar in every aspect", but yet that product had an MSRP of $2,999 which makes the Planar 1.33 times more expensive than the Epson.

How many times do we compare a base model Toyota Camry ($20,000) with a Mercendez-Benz E Class (around $62,000). Yes, everyone knows that the Mercedez-Benz is "better", but how much better is it to everyone? I think most people will be happy with the Toyota Camry.

This is the sub $3,000 forum, but yet we are comparing a projector at the top of that range with one at the bottom? I think for $999, this projector seems to put out a great picture and seems to be a good value for someone who can't afford the top of the line.

Let's just talk about the HD20 and leave ones that are 3 times the cost out of here.

It won't match the black level of the Epson, that is common sense. I doubt it will match the black level of the Planar, but it might come close. I have seen a few of the lower priced 1080p projectors, the Epson 6100, Sanyo 1080p, Infocus X10, and none of them can match the black level of the 6500UB.
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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