*Official* Optoma HD20 Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 05:31 PM
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Wow I just watched Rounders which is non anamorphic using a Panny BD80 which zooms the the image perfrectly. Never saw it look better at upscaled 1080p 24fps, the whole picture looked great, colors, blacks, detail everything. Nice PJ the HD20.

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post #722 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 06:09 PM
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guitarman,
what screen are you using?
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post #723 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 06:11 PM
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Wait a sec, does HD20 to 24fps?!

Also, please let me know if that's a stupid question. Do all projectors and TVs do it these days?
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post #724 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 06:37 PM
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yes, it does 24 fps. quite nicely!

FEEL an awesome 3D Blu-ray movie in the
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- Now with projection in glorious "FREYMAX" 3D!

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post #725 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryllo View Post

guitarman,
what screen are you using?

I'm using a dalite high power screen and yes blacks and video look great. The PJ is ceiling mounted so gain is reduced way down. A gray screen would work well for the HD20 also.

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post #726 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 09:55 PM
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Is anybody tempted to try adding an iris or two for less lumens, but higher on/off CR, like discussed in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16971419

--Darin

This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #727 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 10:11 PM
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The HD20 can do any refresh rate between 24 and 80hz. So yes it can do 24p
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post #728 of 3999 Old 09-01-2009, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

I have found along with others that it is better to run for the first 100 or so hours on High to ensure that the electrodes burn in properly and then switch to the low setting if that is were you like it.

Doing this seems to ensure for the most part a good long life of the lamp.

Hmmm, this is an interesting claim. Can you explain exactly how you arrived at this determination? If you would provide this, then others -- in the spirit of the scientific method -- would be able to follow your experimental protocol to see if they can verify this finding. I'm not an electronics or physics (or projector) expert, but I cannot immediately think of what would explain this or what would constitute "proper" electrode burn in (do you mean lamp electrodes, or what?) and how that relates to lamp life. At least if you would share your protocol for arriving at this finding, others could independently evaluate and verify your result(s).
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post #729 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrianbrandt View Post

Hmmm, this is an interesting claim. Can you explain exactly how you arrived at this determination? If you would provide this, then others -- in the spirit of the scientific method -- would be able to follow your experimental protocol to see if they can verify this finding. I'm not an electronics or physics (or projector) expert, but I cannot immediately think of what would explain this or what would constitute "proper" electrode burn in (do you mean lamp electrodes, or what?) and how that relates to lamp life. At least if you would share your protocol for arriving at this finding, others could independently evaluate and verify your result(s).

Ah! the Engineer/Scientist.

First off please do research the technology of the these lamps which are used in both front pj's and rear pj tv's regardless of display tech used. They are probable the weakest link and one of the most expensive part and has the shortest life span of any part used in pj's.

They are a High Pressure (up to 250bar after ignited) discharge lamps with Mercury-Halogen gas and tungsten electrodes. They use high voltage to ignite and it is the arc across the two electrodes which have a gap of only 1mm or so. The high voltage jumping across this small gap generates the high lumen light we need.

But the gap wears in time and sometimes slivers grow across the electrodes which tend cause a secondary arc which we see as a flicker; if we are lucky or can cause premature lamp failure if we are not.

After lamp ignition the metal vaporizes which takes time; the reason to leave on for a few hours.

At turn off metal will re-deposit and again takes time; the reason to reduce cycling of power on/off.

As with most electronics the most dangerous times of failure is at turn-on and turn-off.

The studies have already been done. Do the research and draw your own conclusions.

My post was for the new users which are not familiar fragility of these lamps to help them get the most life from them.

Still no guarantees I have had them fail at 50 hours but these guidelines seem to help.

Rew
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post #730 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 03:46 AM
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Art's review is finally here
http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd20/index.php
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post #731 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 04:56 AM
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I saw the projector shootout that was posted earlier in this thread from PP. I have a little question: the letterbox bars on the HD20 really looked more grey than they did black. Is this something you owners can see also? It's a bit distracting and I find it spoils what is for the rest a fine image.
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post #732 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atanuray View Post

Art's review is finally here
http://www.projectorreviews.com/optoma/hd20/index.php

Decent review, but he doesn't have any contrast measuements. So the HD20 has "bad" black levels, but without contrast numbers, we don't know if it is because of horrible contrast, of just because it is brighter than most (which it seems to be). Too bright can easily be taken care of with an ND filter. Just doesn't seem to tell the whole story.
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post #733 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atanuray View Post

Art's review is finally here

Actually, I wanted to see a little comparison with its own HD65, cause HD20 seems to be a successor of HD65 even it's 1080p projector. I think I'd better wait until I see reviews for $999 Vivitek and BenQ 1080p PJs.
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post #734 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 07:18 AM
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Well it's on the FedEx truck for delivery!

Hope to have some initial impressions sometime today.

Rew
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post #735 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 07:21 AM
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I just put my 60" Sony LCoS TV on Craigslist, as soon as that sells I'll be ordering this projector.
Please don't hate me once I get this thing and the Projector n00b questions start flying
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post #736 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 09:06 AM
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Rew452,

IS HE THERE YET LOL!!!
looking forward to your info once you get it. Can't wait to see if your screen paint works well for this pojector, so i can go paint mine!!!!
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post #737 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 09:06 AM
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Well, I guess Art gave the HD20 his 'Hot Product' award. That goes a long way in my books.

Tom, still waitin' on that review of yours, buddy.

Edit: Bookmarked the thread and thought it would be in here. Didn't check the front page. Thanks.
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post #738 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monakh View Post

Well, I guess Art gave the HD20 his 'Hot Product' award. That goes a long way in my books.

Tom, still waitin' on that review of yours, buddy.

It's here, already posted yesterday...

Robert Clark
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post #739 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

Ah! the Engineer/Scientist.

Yes, I take an analytic/scientific approach to separate lore from fact/knowledge-based claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

First off please do research the technology of the these lamps which are used in both front pj's and rear pj tv's regardless of display tech used. They are probable the weakest link and one of the most expensive part and has the shortest life span of any part used in pj's.

I have, and am well aware of this. You probably don't recall my earlier posting answering what a P-VIP lamp is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

After lamp ignition the metal vaporizes which takes time; the reason to leave on for a few hours. At turn off metal will re-deposit and again takes time; the reason to reduce cycling of power on/off. As with most electronics the most dangerous times of failure is at turn-on and turn-off.

Sure, that's all pretty well-known and non-controversial, but is a non-sequitur as far as the "100-hours on high burn in extends lamp life" claim goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

The studies have already been done. Do the research and draw your own conclusions.

Great! So can you (or anyone else) please point the curious like me to at least one reference that addresses extending lamp life with 100-hour "burn-in" on high.

Any references (such as a paper like this on UHP lamps) would be welcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rew452 View Post

My post was for the new users which are not familiar fragility of these lamps to help them get the most life from them.

My question is also for new (as well as old) users. I want to help avoid that folks get burdened with with lore that has them unnecessarily worrying about things that may not even be true (e.g.: high octane gas is "more powerful"). The "100 hours burn-in on high to maximize lamp life" claim may be valid, but how can you or anyone else know what the precise basis for this very specific claim is?
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post #740 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 11:58 AM
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The HD20 can do any refresh rate between 24 and 80hz. So yes it can do 24p

Can I ask where you got this information?
I don't understand how it could produce a refresh rate such as 80hz with a color wheel rotating at a fixed speed (120 hz). It seems like it would create weird artifacts if it tried (changing frames in the middle of a color wheel transition).
I would think that perhaps it could accept any frame rate in that range, but would only be able to output frames at a fixed rate i.e. would drop frames, or create new frames as needed.
I have been trying to determine if 24fps is really output as a native output format, or if it is just accepting 24fps and bumping it up to 60 hz. I think a 120hz color wheel would allow the former, but I wasn't sure if the firmware was actually sending an image every 5 color wheel rotations as would be required.

When watching blu-ray discs from my PS3 on the HD20 I did not think that 24fps looked better (and perhaps worse) so I turned it off. It could be an issue with the PS3, or just my eyes.
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post #741 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpnine View Post

I have been trying to determine if 24fps is really output as a native output format, or if it is just accepting 24fps and bumping it up to 60 hz. I think a 120hz color wheel would allow the former, but I wasn't sure if the firmware was actually sending an image every 5 color wheel rotations as would be required.

When watching blu-ray discs from my PS3 on the HD20 I did not think that 24fps looked better (and perhaps worse) so I turned it off. It could be an issue with the PS3, or just my eyes.

If the HD20 is like the HD80 you can hear the color wheel slow down (less whining) when you go from 60Hz to 24Hz. That alone makes it a winner! In theory the image should be identical with less judder during movement.

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post #742 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 12:41 PM
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I was just going by the specs, It can accept those refresh rates according to the optoma specs. Weather or not the projector actually adjusts for it I don't know.
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post #743 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 02:23 PM
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Quote:


If the HD20 is like the HD80 you can hear the color wheel slow down (less whining) when you go from 60Hz to 24Hz.

Interesting. So the color wheel is perhaps changing rotational speed to match the frame rate. I had assumed it was a fixed speed multiple of 60hz.

However wouldn't the slower color wheel increase RBE?
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post #744 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 02:25 PM
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Not be anti HD20, but I did have one for a while(actually HD200x) and didn't see it as enough of a 1080p upgrade from my Epson 720. Both projectors were basically identical in my viewing.

I'd recommend anyone looking at this pj to consider spending a few hundred more on one of the alternatives Art mentions in his review.

To quote Art

Optoma HD20 vs. InFocus X10, Sharp XV-Z15000, Viewsonic Pro8100

Both of these projectors are a step up (or more) from the Optoma HD20. The X10 which is being phased out, is probably a great deal at the moment, but still likely to be close to $2000. The Sharp is also around that price.

Simply put, the InFocus should have a slight, but side-by-side noticeable advantage in black levels, it also has better overall color - always an InFocus strength. The two should be about comparable in terms of shadow detail, and the X10 should be a little quieter in operation.

The Sharp XV-Z15000, which we reviewed a few months back, is one of my favorite DLP projectors. It too has really good color (I'd give the InFocus the edge), comparable to the Optoma. Both produce that pleasing image. Where the Sharp has its big advantage is black levels where it is significantly better than the Optoma (or InFocus). The Sharp does really well at blacks. If you favor DLP projectors, and are spending more, I really like the Sharp.

Then, there's the Viewsonic - which started out a year plus, ago, as an under $5000 projector, with a few extra bells and whistles. Recently, though, the price has plummeted, to less than $2000 as they have dropped price and made it available online. While I wasn't a big fan of the Pro8100 at it's original price, it's another good projector right now for well under $2000. It too would provide another higher performance choice, this time for probably $400 to $700 more.


I have the Viewsonic Pro8100 and it was basically $250 more for a substantial upgrade.

Of course if you only have $1000 to spend, then the HD20 is the only choice...for now
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post #745 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sharpnine View Post

Interesting. So the color wheel is perhaps changing rotational speed to match the frame rate. I had assumed it was a fixed speed multiple of 60hz.

However wouldn't the slower color wheel increase RBE?

The projector actually displays the image at 48Hz (doubles the 24Hz). So I'm guessing there isn't that much of a difference.

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post #746 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 06:08 PM
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HD20 owners pls try the HDMI Blu ray colorfacts numbers I posted in my reivew thread. These lower the brightness down and also lowers the black level way down for movie watching. Give them a try and let me know it they work for you?

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post #747 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 06:09 PM
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A major retail store with a web site has the Optoma HD20 with a GrayWolf II 106" manual wall screen for $999 with free shipping. Is this a good deal? I don't know anything about the GrayWolf brand other than it is manufactured by Optoma I believe. I was going to wait until a few other $1,000 1080p dlp projectors came out in the next two months, but the retailer has a 90 day return policy so I thought it might be too good to pass up. This retailer has a habit of running out of stock rather quickly so I jumped on it.
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post #748 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 06:14 PM
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Basically getting a free screen so I'd say it's a pretty good deal. And free shipping.
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post #749 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Why would anyone summon up a post like this in a specific Offical Optoma HD20 owners thread. Bad taste really. Start a new seperate thread on how great you like your viewsonic. I doubt they'll be a run a viewsonics anytime soon.

+1.

There have been too many posts like this in this thread. The mods have already cleaned it up once. Makes you wonder why some posters are so desperately trying to convince people NOT to buy the hd20...

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post #750 of 3999 Old 09-02-2009, 07:13 PM
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I have the HD20 with a Greywolf II Screen and it looks fantastic. I think it helps with the blacks everyone is complaining about. I bought by screen for about $250 on Amazon and I think at the time it was originally about $400. So yeah I think that is a good deal.

Just a thought maybe they are bundling the projector cause it works best with a grey screen.

Jason
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