*Unofficial* Mitsubishi HC3800 Thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 6368 Old 10-12-2009, 08:11 AM
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It would be very interesting to see how Mitsubishi HC3800 compares against an another but more expensive DLP projector without DI. In terms of black level of course
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post #362 of 6368 Old 10-12-2009, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WormInfested View Post

that Infocus IN83 makes all the other shots look so lame in comparison. crystal clear and pops out at ya.

All the shots show some sort of camera shake I think. Perhaps Art doesn't use a remote trigger or the timer to shoot. With the longer exposures (which these are), any tiny shake is gonna make it blurry. Even walking on the floor the tripod is on.

The IN83 shot had the least of those issues it seems and it shows how screenshots should be considered more for fun than as a tool for selecting a projector, especially when you can't make out the contrast advantage the RS20 has over the HC3800, and obviously the RS20 isn't that blurry.
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post #363 of 6368 Old 10-12-2009, 10:53 AM
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I suck at math and thats my disclaimer. I want to mount the 3800 on a 9' ceiling and project 16' to a 110" screen and keep the screen around the middle to lower half of the wall. Can I do this with this projector?

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post #364 of 6368 Old 10-12-2009, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post

I suck at math and thats my disclaimer. I want to mount the 3800 on a 9' ceiling and project 16' to a 110" screen and keep the screen around the middle to lower half of the wall. Can I do this with this projector?

Punch your numbers into this> http://global.mitsubishielectric.com....html?p=hc3800
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post #365 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

All the shots show some sort of camera shake I think. Perhaps Art doesn't use a remote trigger or the timer to shoot. With the longer exposures (which these are), any tiny shake is gonna make it blurry. Even walking on the floor the tripod is on.

The IN83 shot had the least of those issues it seems and it shows how screenshots should be considered more for fun than as a tool for selecting a projector, especially when you can't make out the contrast advantage the RS20 has over the HC3800, and obviously the RS20 isn't that blurry.

What concerns me is the X10 screenshots also show the same increase in sharpness detail as the IN83 shots. I'm thinking the Infocus models have superior lense quality.

X10


IN83


3800
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post #366 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgferg67 View Post

What concerns me is the X10 screenshots also show the same increase in sharpness detail as the IN83 shots. I'm thinking the Infocus models have superior lense quality.

It is actually being said in the Art's review that Mitsubishi HC3800 is sharper than JVC RS20. So don't worry too much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Projectorreviews.com View Post

Mitsubishi HC3800: Bottom Line Sharpness

Sharpness is a major strength. Let me put it this way: Once again, I'm jealous. My far more expensive JVC RS20 can't produce as sharp an image, and that projector is more than 5 times the price. I don't really notice when watching movies, but am aware of the diffference with some nice 1080i hi-def sports, and other top quality digital content. Mitsubishi does extremely well, when it comes to sharpness. I doubt any of the ultra-high contrast 3LCD home theater projectors can match the HC3800's sharpness, and that includes Mitsubishi's own HC7000.

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post #367 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgferg67 View Post

What concerns me is the X10 screenshots also show the same increase in sharpness detail as the IN83 shots. I'm thinking the Infocus models have superior lense quality.

That is not the case regarding those screenshots.

As already mentioned, there is some camera shake/exposure issues going on that cause the blurriness. There is no way these screenshots show that much of a sharpness difference in real life. DLP's will be sharper, but not nearly as drastic as those screenshots show.

If you want to see the sharpness differences, look as the separate specific sharpness screenshots in Art's reviews, NOT the contrast screenshots.

And as mentioned, you shouldn't chose your projector on screenshot performance.
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post #368 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 01:38 PM
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Sharpness to a degree is inherent in the different technologies.

As a rule a single-chip DLP will always be sharper than LCD or Lcos. (single chip design versus a 3 chip... single chip always wins for sharpness)

As a rule LCD will always be sharper than Lcos.

As a rule Lcos and DLP will not have dust issues as their engines are of a "closed" design.

As a rule Lcos will have less SDE than LCD (Panasonic excepted) once again due to design differences.

We can debate fill rates etc forever......

In the end all that matters is........

1. What looks good to your eyes.

2. What works best in your environment.

All of these technologies are "application" driven and should really be approached that way.

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post #369 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiHoStevo View Post

Sharpness to a degree is inherent in the different technologies.

Yes. But the problem was the poster using 'contrast' screenshots to judge 'sharpness' between projectors.
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post #370 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 08:25 PM
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.65" DMD's need a higher quality lens to prevent losing detail when blowing the image up. It's not unreasonable to assume the Infocus with its .95" DMD is sharper. Unless you think the Mitsu has better or equivalent optics -- not likely at this price point. But yeah, comparing sharpness of two projectors is silly by looking at screenshots on a website.
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post #371 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendo View Post

.65" DMD's need a higher quality lens to prevent losing detail when blowing the image up. It's not unreasonable to assume the Infocus with its .95" DMD is sharper. Unless you think the Mitsu has better or equivalent optics -- not likely at this price point. But yeah, comparing sharpness of two projectors is silly by looking at screenshots on a website.

If comparing screenshots of projector is such a waste of time, I'm wondering why Art(Projector reviews) provides sharpness comparison shots of numerous projectors? He even mentions the softness in the H20 and XV-Z15000 monitor photos and sure enough those are the softest photos.

I agree that there are variables when taking photos but when "every" similar(even the sharpness shots) photo the X10 looks sharper I do question why?

Also after owning a Sharp DT-510 - essentially a clone of the Sharp XV-Z3000 that Art reviewed and said was a "sharp" projector, I do also question what Art thinks is "sharp" unless he got a "ringer" projector for the review.

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post #372 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgferg67 View Post

If comparing screenshots of projector is such a waste of time, I'm wondering why Art(Projector reviews) provides sharpness comparison shots of numerous projectors? He even mentions the softness in the H20 and XV-Z15000 monitor photos and sure enough those are the softest photos.

I agree that there are variables when taking photos but when "every" similar(even the sharpness shots) photo the X10 looks sharper I do question why?

I specifically mentioned to not use the 'Contrast' screenshot comparison (which I posted from Art's site). Those weren't designed (screenshot wise) to show sharpness comparisons.

I then said if you want to compare sharpness by screenshots (not entirely recommended IMO), then at least use Art's 'sharpness' screenshot comparisons.

Sorry, but apparently you are not reading the posts well....it was made clear.
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post #373 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

If you want to see the sharpness differences, look as the separate specific sharpness screenshots in Art's reviews, NOT the contrast screenshots.

And as mentioned, you shouldn't chose your projector on screenshot performance.

As I posted earlier in response to your post. A reminder.
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post #374 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 10:31 PM
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The 3800 looks softer than the X10 in all similar photos in the reviews(7 sets). If he is using the same camera and is constistant I would have expected the law of averages to average out by now - a sharper 3800 photo.

x10


3800
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post #375 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 10:48 PM
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Again, if you are gonna chose and base your decision for purchasing a PJ based on screenshots, good luck to you.

Yes, Art spends more time trying to get the 'sharpness' screenshots down well, but they are taken at much different times over many months or years. He's changed camera's, changed how he processes images (raw format or jpeg, etc.), etc., etc.

Plus you can take 2 shots a second apart on the same PJ, and get different sharpness results.

Example The X10 vs a top of the line DLP that's considered one of the sharpest projectors out there, the $7000 Planer PD8150>

X10>>


PD8150>>


Art himself said this>
Quote:


Planar PD8150: Bottom Line Sharpness

The PD8150 is excellent, the image is extremely sharp and crisp. A sharp, crisp image is a real strength of this Planar projector.
No question about the sharpness of the Planar PD8150, it is about as good as it gets!

Again, you can see that in the sharpness screenshots, the X10 Projector 'Looks' sharper. Do you really think it is sharper??
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post #376 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 10:49 PM
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None of those are truly 'SHARP', you don't know sharp until you see a high end lens system. Problem is once you see some of the better lens systems everything else looks a little blurry .

Stop basing anything on Art's comparison screen shots, now if Cine4home does something similar you can make more accurate 'speculative' comments .

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post #377 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post


Plus you can take 2 shots a second apart on the same PJ, and get different sharpness results.

Example The X10 vs a top of the line DLP that's considered one of the sharpest projectors out there, the $7000 Planer PD8150>

Again, you can see that in the sharpness screenshots, the X10 Projector 'Looks' sharper. Do you really think it is sharper??

Actually since the X10 shares most of the same components(same lense,processing ect) minus the dmd as the $6000(when released) msrp IN83, I could believe it.
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post #378 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgferg67 View Post

Actually since the X10 shares most of the same components(same lense,processing ect) minus the dmd as the $6000(when released) msrp IN83, I could believe it.

Ok then, let me know how the X10 works out for you

Seriously, I'm sure the X10 is a sharp PJ, yet I doubt that it is actually sharper than a Planar PD8150. Besides that, there's many other areas the X10 won't perform well on, like contrast, etc. That will make a much bigger visual different that any Slight sharpness difference between the X10 and the HC3800 which I will guarantee you will have to walk right up to the screen to see.

If you don't yet have a PJ, you will understand exactly what I'm saying when you do have a PJ (X10 I guess), but it will be too late then.
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post #379 of 6368 Old 10-13-2009, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

Ok then, let me know how the X10 works out for you

Seriously, I'm sure the X10 is a sharp PJ, yet I doubt that it is actually sharper than a Planar PD8150. Besides that, there's many other areas the X10 won't perform well on, like contrast, etc. That will make a much bigger visual different that any Slight sharpness difference between the X10 and the HC3800 which I will guarantee you will have to walk right up to the screen to see.

If you don't yet have a PJ, you will understand exactly what I'm saying when you do have a PJ (X10 I guess), but it will be too late then.

I have an Planar PD-7130(720p), and am concerned about the jump to 1080p being not so apparent if I get a projector that throws a soft image. When I went from 480p to 720p I was underwhelmed initially because I bought a projector that threw a soft image - Sharp DT-510. The Planar PD-7130 lense quality was night and day compared to the Sharp.
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post #380 of 6368 Old 10-14-2009, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgferg67 View Post

I have an Planar PD-7130(720p), and am concerned about the jump to 1080p being not so apparent if I get a projector that throws a soft image. When I went from 480p to 720p I was underwhelmed initially because I bought a projector that threw a soft image - Sharp DT-510. The Planar PD-7130 lense quality was night and day compared to the Sharp.

Are you sure you're not mistaking resolution for sharpness?

A 480p DLP can appear sharper due to it's more pronounced pixel grid, while a 720p might actually be 'sharper', it could 'appear' not as sharp due to a less apparent pixel grid. I'm not sure if the 510 uses the same chip as the pd7130, but there are other reasons for softness, like how well the optics are aligned, which can vary from projector to projector, even between say a DT510 and another DT510 (giving more non-uniform focus).

I went through 3 Optoma H30 projectors (buzzing issues) before finally upgrading to an H31. All 3 of those H30's had different sharpness levels, and all had the same lens. Still, I had to walk right up to the screen to see it.

It's fine to be concerned about sharpness, but using screenshots as a way to choose isn't something I would do at All. A 1080p might 'appear' even softer to you if you sit close enough to almost see the pixel grid on the 720p, but not on a 1080p.

Good luck.
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post #381 of 6368 Old 10-14-2009, 06:22 AM
 
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Hah, and I remember it wasn't long ago when defocusing was the rage to make a smoother more pixel-grid less picture.

That said, I think a lot of the discussion here misses the point between a lens that can accurately focus on the display device that creates the image plus the display device, which must interpret a signal that minimizes noise and edge ghosting to show detail. Both work in concert with each other. That said, on my Optoma HD70, I've seen programming and DVDs that were so pristine I could see the hair on a gnats butt, then again other programming that looked defocused and fuzzy to the point I would spend time focusing and refocusing the lens to no avail.

Also, sharpness is greatly influence by contrast or "pop." The phenom is more pronounced in digital cameras. I have pics from my 6 MP camera that are contrast and edge-enhanced that will knock you dead with sharpness against a 12 MP camera image, though the 12MP image will definitely carry more detail and have a smoother look.

Like auditioning projectors at a big-box retail chain. I saw 5 projectors of different manufacturers and specs and was blown away by the cheapest most ill-reviewed machine, only because out of the box it had the best and sharpest image.

Just my opinions here.

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post #382 of 6368 Old 10-14-2009, 10:33 PM
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I've had Infocus, NEC, Sharp and Mits, and the HC3000 was second to none in its Sharpness. I'd be willing to bet the HC3800 will follow suit, of course we need to get them in hand but sharpness won't be worth discussing because the HC3800 should be excellent, and Art's review points in that direction.
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post #383 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrhomes View Post

I've had Infocus, NEC, Sharp and Mits, and the HC3000 was second to none in its Sharpness. I'd be willing to bet the HC3800 will follow suit, of course we need to get them in hand but sharpness won't be worth discussing because the HC3800 should be excellent, and Art's review points in that direction.

According to the Sound and Vision review the HC3000 was not a sharp projector.
"HDTV, on the other hand, didn't have quite the same sharpness as on some other projectors"
"Resolution was below average, not hitting every line of a 720p pattern via either HDMI or component-video"
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post #384 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 03:44 PM
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Still can't find any info on lens shift or offset on the 3800.
Anyone know???
Thanks!
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post #385 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 03:49 PM
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There's NO lens shift on the HC3800

Offset is about 34%, but that is not 100% confirmed. Probably at least 30%.

Use Mits's projection calculator>

http://global.mitsubishielectric.com....html?p=hc3800
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post #386 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 04:17 PM
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Art @ projector reviews finally wrote up his 'comparison' page for the HC3800>

http://www.projectorreviews.com/mits...ompetitors.php

I wish he'd compare it with more DLP's, but oh well. Also wish he'd comment on how the Benq W6000 blacks would compare with it's DI OFF. But oh well. At least he said the blacks would probably similar to the Sharp Z15000 if the DI was Off.

And for tgferg67's never ending quest for a sharp projector, Art said this in his summary>

Quote:


Mitsubishi HC3800 Projector: Pros:

* Extremely sharp image

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post #387 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 05:28 PM
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For any experts out there:

If this thing turns out to have a horrendous off center projection angle to where shelve mounting is near-impossible without massive keystoning, .................

Can I mount the thing on a shelve at an angle and then do the same with the screen on the opposite wall thereby negating keystoning.

Will that work? if so I could in theory built a "lip" at the top of the screen and mount the screen at the end of the lip (say 6" out) and angle the screen to be flush with wall at the bottom.

just wondering - it would be a huge PIA butt load of carpentry work, but doeable me thinks - if that would allow the projecter to give me a uniform non-keystoned picture.

a welcome any input on this matter.
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post #388 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaffo View Post

Can I mount the thing on a shelve at an angle and then do the same with the screen on the opposite wall thereby negating keystoning.

Yes.

The PJ and Screen are still aligned/squared in that case.

Others on this forum have done just that.
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post #389 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleaman View Post

Yes.

The PJ and Screen are still aligned/squared in that case.

Others on this forum have done just that.

thanks for the prompt reply Mr Flea!

sounds like I have ANOTHER project..............ugh. stuck in the middle of two home carpentry removations now (months now) ;-/.

- advice to those with 90 yr old homes with 7 layers of paint. if you like woodwork over paint you better LOVE striping those $%^%& layers of paint!........... otherwise don't do it! learn to love ugly gloppy paint instead of beautiful golden honey colored woodgrain.
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post #390 of 6368 Old 10-15-2009, 07:30 PM
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Looks like there are some videos on the hc3800 if you search on youtube
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