*Unofficial* Mitsubishi HC3800 Thread - Page 218 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6511 of 6523 Old 02-16-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
Already have a Darbee...use it at 55%.
The difference in native contrast is like mind blowing compared to an old projector.

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post #6512 of 6523 Old 02-16-2017, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The difference in native contrast is like mind blowing compared to an old projector.
No kidding.

The HC3800 native was good for a 'DLP', like 3000:1 , but this RS57 should be just mental in comparison.

Have a good 7-8 years run on my HC3800....if all goes well with the RS57 (it works, etc!), I'll sell my HC3800 to one of my friends-----seems quite a few are interested
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post #6513 of 6523 Old 02-16-2017, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
For me, I wouldn't upgrade if I didn't get a very noticeable contrast and black level improvement.
Contrast is an order of magnitude better than the HC3800 - absolutely huge difference.
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post #6514 of 6523 Old 02-16-2017, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BubbaMc View Post
Contrast is an order of magnitude better than the HC3800 - absolutely huge difference.
But I said Contrast AND black level difference.

Of course you can get "an order magnitude better" contrast by doubling brightness, even if the black levels stay about the same (of which you guys have been saying).

With 'myself', running a small screen and already getting 20fL something off it with the HC3800, it would be ridiculous IMO to double that to something like 40fL with little to no improvement in black levels.

For me, that's going in the wrong direction. I don't need more firepower, I need better blacks and contrast and the only way to do that w/o making things brighter is by making the black level lower.

For you guys running screens too big for the HC3800 (too big for the brightness you want), I get why you see big improvements with a light cannon PJ.

That's not the issue in my theater.

YMMV.
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post #6515 of 6523 Old 02-16-2017, 07:59 PM
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Bottom line is that I needed to increase my contrast by going downwards----towards blacks. Not by going upwards---via a brighter PJ like you guys have done.
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post #6516 of 6523 Old 02-17-2017, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by fleaman View Post
Bottom line is that I needed to increase my contrast by going downwards----towards blacks. Not by going upwards---via a brighter PJ like you guys have done.
In that case, you might want to consider a neutral density filter on the projector lens. That'd reduce the over-all light intensity without reducing the contrast.

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post #6517 of 6523 Old 02-17-2017, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post
In that case, you might want to consider a neutral density filter on the projector lens. That'd reduce the over-all light intensity without reducing the contrast.
No need.

Did a quick preliminary fire up of the RS57 last night and the manual iris was able to clamp down lower than my HC3800 (will be doing direct comparisons tonight).

Remember that the RS57 has dual manual irises and a dynamic one.

Plus I get the advantage of clamping down with an iris ----equaling increased contrast performance vs a ND filter which doesn't help contrast at all.

BTW, I remember trying a ND filter on my HC3800 when it was new (and brighter with the new lamp), but I didn't like it, so I never used it.
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post #6518 of 6523 Old Today, 10:15 AM
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Gonna post my thoughts on my JVC RS57 vs HC3800, but in the interest of saving time, I'm just gonna post my answers/thoughts from a few PM's sent to another AVS member asking about my RS57. I'm only posting 'my' responses of course and some of this might seem out of context as I was responding to a question(s), but I think it's easy to figure the gist of it.

The first 2 responses where done a few weeks ago---not much time with the RS57.

The 3rd/4th responses I wrote today after having more time with the RS57.

Overall It's somewhat what I expected---not much noticeable improvement in bright scenes (though I think I improved on this a little bit lately), but quite a noticeable improvement in dark scenes. It took some dialing/playing with gamma to nail it a bit better. That being said, I had the HC3800 dialed in with good pop and that didn't happen until I played with the gamma---ended up with a modified 'sports' gamma. With standard gamma my HC3800 didn't pop nearly as much. Since I had good brightness with my HC3800 on a small screen, and the pop dialed in in bright/mixed/dark scenes via modified gamma, I didn't expect much improvement on bright scenes with the RS57 and that seems to be the case. If I set my HC3800 gamma back to stock, the RS57 would of course pop more even on bright scenes.

My PM responses to follow>>>

Last edited by fleaman; Today at 10:25 AM.
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post #6519 of 6523 Old Today, 10:16 AM
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HDMI> The early issues had to do with loosing sync and having to reboot the PJ, etc. I don't have those issues---was fixed with a FW update that my RS57 already has. BUT, the hdmi sync delay is LONG and annoying. It can take 5-10 seconds to sync, and this will happen anytime resolution/refresh rate is changed. So on blu rays for example, it happens multiple times as the menu screens, etc. are different refresh rates than the movie. And most of the time the movie studio header (MGM., etc) is sometimes even missed as the sync can take that long. So you will hear opening music intro's but no picture for a few more seconds, etc. Apparently JVC's have never been speedy in that regard.
Also annoying is when playing with settings, like different picture modes, there's also a long delay---so impossible to compare different modes instantly----there's seconds of black screen. For minor changes, it's hard to notice the better picture mode when you have that long of a delay, etc.
My HC3800 didn't have any of these issues at all.

I'm coming from a Mits HC3800. I was expecting big improvements in Black levels and shadow detail----and essentially I got that, but perhaps not as much as I expected. Was almost expecting 'Inky blacks' that so many seem to mention, that there could not really be any improvements beyond a RS57----I think that might be a bit hyperbolic. The only time I've seen real inky blacks was on a OLED display. So black level is much improved over the HC3800, shadow detail doesn't seem much better, but I seem to be dialing that in. The lamp had 560 hrs or so on it and it seemed like I had a good amount of black crush in most of the picture modes, like Natural and especially THX mode, which is supposed to be pretty bang on OTB according to everyone. But, I've also read about Gamma drift after a few hundred hrs and perhaps that's what I'm seeing. Trying lower gamma's----2.1, 2.0, etc, seemed to help a lot. So perhaps that is the 'gamma drift'. I'm thinking of popping the new lamp in to see if the gamma snaps back into place (so I know what it looks like), though I'm assuming the gamma drift is from the lamp and not something else (like the Lcos panels---which would be crazy if so).

I don't really see much improvement on bright scenes---which I kinda expected. Even though in the HC3800 thread there's a few posters who upgraded to a Sony 40ES or something and saw huge improvements across the board, including bright scenes. We went back in forth a bit on this and I think the reason they saw big pop differences in bright scenes with the Sony vs HC3800 is because they had too big of a screen for the HC3800 and they popped in place a PJ (40ES, etc) that had twice the lumens, so of course it popped better!

I have a very small screen---80" diagonal 16:9 in a very small room. Sit about 9 ft back. Also, it's a .9 gray screen. This was a good match for the HC3800---trying to get a little bit more better blacks from it. I was expecting the RS57 to be a light cannon on this screen and that I'd need to clamp the manual iris all the way down, but not at all. I've settled on -9 manual and auto 2 on the dynamic. Perhaps there's more than 560 hrs on the lamp, I dunno. Again, I might try the new lamp to see.

I am having issues with squaring the PJ to the screen. It seems I can't really find the 'lens center' on the horizontal plain. Using the Lens Center function doesn't seem to always bring it to the same 'center' spot, and using all the vertical shift to eliminate horizontal shift also doesn't seem to be repeatable to the same spot. It seems that once you get the to limit stop on lens shift, it kinda loses it's positioning a little bet. Though using lens memory function seems to be repeatable as it doesn't normally go to the limits of lens shift.

It is quite a bit quieter than my HC3800, though the lens door opening/closing noise is insanely loud! Sounds like you're opening the hanger the space shuttle is housed in! You'll see!

Convergence wasn't perfect, but seems ok. I'll try to examine and see if I can improve it, but my first attempts failed miserably. You lose 1:1 pixel mapping when you try to adjust pixel convergence, and it made it worse when I tried to adjust. I'll revisit later. Focus uniformity seems to be a bit better than my HC3800 (probably due to a much better lens), but the pic doesn't 'appear' to be any sharper. Though it doesn't appear softer---which I was afraid of (DLP to 3 chip). I'm guessing a high end single chip DLP with expensive lens would be sharper.

Even though I knew the RS57 was a lot larger and heavier than my HC3800, in real life it was way more than I expected. It weighs 33 lbs (compared to 8 lbs HC3800), but for whatever reason feels way heavier than that! It's gonna be a project to ceiling mount it for sure. My original mounting set up for my 8 lb HC3800 ain't gonna cut it. I gotta reconfigure for 50 lbs (PJ + mount weight, etc.).

So overall I'm happy at the $2k purchase point, but super glad I didn't pay the $7k or so many did when new. That's a for sure point for me.
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post #6520 of 6523 Old Today, 10:17 AM
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It's a monoprice hdmi cable, about 25ft, that I bought probably a good 7 years ago for the HC3800. Don't remember which one, but it's not the redmir (?) ones they offer now. Works fine so far, but blu ray signal is the max I'm using.

4K> As you know, the RS57 isn't native 4k, but will play 4k through it's panel switching gimmick. I don't have a UHD player yet nor can do UHD streaming. Plus, I believe you gotta get something like the HD Integral Fury to get the RS57 to play nice with a UHD player/discs. Because I tend to buy used blu rays for around $5 ea, and when they are reference quality (like 'Lucy', etc.) they look very very good, I don't think I'm gonna tackle UHD for a bit....perhaps a year or so.

I've tried the JVC pseudo 4k gimmick (on reg blu rays of course) but couldn't really see a difference from a few feet back. A few inches from the screen you can of course see the pixel lines disappear when 4k is switched on, but can't see that at all from the seating area. I'm guessing you would probably see some difference with true 4k sources. Also, right now the RS57 is on a shelf about 1 ft from my head (until I figure out a robust ceiling mount) and you can clearly hear the 'buzzing' from the PJ when the 4k mode is turned on. I've read that the Lcos panels are being vibrated very fast to produce the overlapping 1080 images to create pseudo 4k. If this is actually true, it worries me about how convergence can possibly be worsened by this mechanical process. So since I can't see a difference, + the noise (1 ft from head) + my fear of convergences worsening, I leave it off for now.
BTW, it's 'on' by default in THX mode, you can't turn it off.
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post #6521 of 6523 Old Today, 10:17 AM
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(This response I wrote today)>>

I had to delay my install as I live in a rental and building code inspectors + landlord were coming, so thought it best to not have that huge/heavy RS57 hanging above my head. It was gonna require a good size square ply attached to ceiling to spread the load, etc.

So I was mostly using my trusty HC3800. BBC's Planet Earth II came on and was pretty darn spectacular on both PJ's.

I was able to dial in the RS57 a bit better, playing with gamma and doing some basic calibration--disc style (AVS HD 709, etc). Ended up with +3 brightness and (I think) -7 contrast, +3 Color (I think), 0 tint. I'm on a -.9 gray screen, so that might effect things. Gamma wise I'm down in the 2.0, 2.1 range----I assume due the dreaded 'Gamma drift'. Gamma is just set by eye, by viewing various dark/shadow and mixed scenes. Trial and Error.

Also, my lens had some pretty hard fingerprints on it. It was only noticeable when breathed on (condensation), but it looked nasty when fogged up. Lens looked clean otherwise. Bought a lens cleaning kit form Altura (Digital Goja) and spent a good careful 15+ mins cleaning the lens. Took that long to carefully get the fingerprints off. Pretty darn clean now and things 'seem' sharper even though most of the fingerprints were not really in the 'light path'.
The RS57 has an automatic lens door protecting it, and the lens is recessed inside the case of the RS57 quite a bit, so I doubt the previous owner touched the lens. And I checked my serial # with JVC and it was never in for service. Possible the fingerprints were there from the factory when new!

I also have a Darbee and use it with the RS57 too. Playing around with the RS57 clear black on Planet Earth, I found things sharpest with Clear Black on high and Darbee on Game mode @ 50%. Most of what I've read was to either use Darbee or Clear Black, but not both, so I never really tried it, but was surprised to find it sharper with both. I'll probably play more with it on blu rays and different content.
Focus uniformity is a lot better than my HC3800.

Overall I think there's 'some' overall improvement on bright scenes vs the HC3800....But I really think I need a dual side-by-side screen set up to see the difference (would probably be obvious then. Maybe after I install the RS57 I'll shift it off to one side and project on the HC3800 next to it on my screen.

Dark scenes the improvements are obvious---just blacker blacks and better contrast. Shadow detail wise the nod is to the RS57, but the HC3800 is pretty good here too. I had the HC3800 dialed in pretty good---but had to mess with the Gamma to do so. Once I dialed in the gamma, the HC3800 really popped in a all scenes, bright, mixed, dark. So while then nod is to the RS57, I think part of that is due to the shadows being more black and less hazy, but not necessarily more detailed. The HC3800 has better ANSI contrast, so maybe that's in play here. I think there's improvements to be had with the RS57 on shadow detail. It' might mean I have to upload the BT1886 profile---if it's as easy as that (?).

I sold my HC3800 to a friend for $450. It only has 900hrs on it + comes with a brand new unused OEM lamp in box. But he's outta town for a couple of months, so I might do the side by side thing. But I don't really wanna put more hrs on it either.

Also not using the 4k mode. Not digging the audible hum----though the PJ was next to my head like a foot away. Perhaps not as annoying when ceiling mounted. But I didn't really notice a difference from seating distance. It's also difficult to A/B as there's a long blacked out video delay when switching on/off (as there is with many of the video modes). Up close it's obvious the pixels disappear. Another thing> I read that the hum is from the vibrations---which is due to vibrating the LCOS panels and a certain refresh rate/HZ. So a physical vibrating back/forth of the LCOS panels for the quasi 4k effect. If true it worries me that this will worsen convergence--over time. So I just leave it off for now.

I haven't tried improving the convergence with the pixel adjust other than quickly trying too a few weeks ago and making things worse. Something I'm gonna try again. That being said, I can't see any convergence issues from the seated position.
How's your convergence? The RS57's are suppose to be better in that regard vs the X500/RS49's, etc. I have no other JVC to compare (this is the first I've seen too!), so hard for me to know, but I expected better. Of course the HC3800 is a single chip DLP, so maybe not fair.

But on that note, the RS57 is quite a bit quieter than my HC3800, and I thought the HC3800 was pretty quiet....
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post #6522 of 6523 Old Today, 10:20 AM
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I forgot the kinda strange/biggie thing with my RS57> I was having a heck of a time trying to square it with my screen. If I put the lens center at the screen center (as measured from the side wall), it seems I was about 3" off to one side. I did the RS57 'Lens Center' function and also tried using up all the Lens Shift to find the horizontal center---knowing that if I use all the shift in one plane, there would be no shift avail in the other plane. So I shifted the max vertical, then shifted down maybe 10 clicks, tried to shift horizontal--and if I could, tried to center that horizontal, then shifted max vertical again, noting if I got more vertical shift, etc. Eventually got about 3" more vertical shift via this method or the 'Lens Center' function than if the RS57 lens was actually physically centered to the screen!

So, my RS57 lens center---in the lens shift range, is actually 3" off-center in the horizontal plane.

This was important to me as I need max vertical shift avail, so had to find this 'shift range' center and ceiling mount accordingly.

(Forgot to mention this 3" offset was at the screen (on a 80" diagonal screen)--not sure how that translates at the PJ end....)
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post #6523 of 6523 Old Today, 11:42 AM
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Note regarding blacks/shadow details on the RS57> I might be running into the limitations of my room, I'm not in a bat cave.

I have dark'ish wood floors, side walls and ceiling are dirty beige, but at the screen wall/ceiling junction I built a bass trap soffit that extends from the electric screen case up to the ceiling ---about 2ft worth, at an angle, and is covered is very dark brown speaker cloth---this seems to help the early ceiling reflection a bit. Plus the top of my screen is about 2ft below the ceiling.

At the back wall are windows with white blinds----I do have black out roller shades that I can pull down---they are dark blue on the room side. Haven't tried using them for night time viewing (they were meant for daytime viewing and I didn't notice much difference at night time with the HC3800).

I'm guessing for the dark mixed scene stuff my room is not helping. The extreme example of this is the opening scene in Star Wars The Force Awakens. The blacked out spaceship comes into the scene with a very bright (moon bright) planet and before it blocks out the planet, the brightness of that planet lights up the room. Would be interesting to see this scene on my RS57 in a bat cave
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