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post #271 of 3635 Old 10-20-2009, 10:19 AM
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Art says the 9500's black level is a slight improvement over the 6500's. Evan says the AE4000 has the best contrast of any of last year's $3,000 or under projectors, which means it beats the 6500! So, I would expect the AE4000 to be at least as good as the 9500 for contrast (on/off?) or better. It'll be interesting when the actual reviews of the 8500/9500 come out.

For me "revolutionary" changes occurred when FI was added to projectors. That changed things enough for me that I jumped in.
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post #272 of 3635 Old 10-20-2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

I hope you are being sarcastic. Several reviewers have stated that a 10% difference in brightness is barely detectable even in side by side viewing, and that a tripling in contrast is considered only a marginal increase (even from 75,000 to 200,000) as in Art's blog.

If native on/off CR is the same and a dynamic iris is just pushed harder after sitting on a black screen for a second or more to go from a black level that goes from 75k:1 to 200k:1 for on/off CR then I would call that marginal. A tripling of native on/off CR and dynamic on/off CR with the same multiplier from native on/off CR without tricks like having to sit on a blackout for a while would be a completely different matter.

I'm not sure exactly what the Epson did to go from 75k:1 to 200k:1, but from the Cine4home comments it looks like it lines up pretty well with above as far as having a delay before it goes darker than the old 75k:1 did. On my Panasonic AE3000 I think it takes about 12 seconds on a blackout in dynamic mode to get even close to their 60k:1 claim, so that is a much different story with video than a projector that can get there within something like 1/24th or 1/12th of a second, especially with a much higher native on/off CR.

The on/off CR value with some delay may have improved a lot on the Epson, but from the looks of it if you mapped out all images and transitions most of them would probably have about the same CR as last years model, with just things like extended blackouts and maybe near blackouts going darker (and not sure about intra-image CR in near blackouts).

On the Sony VW80 with around 10k:1 on/off CR (I don't remember my exact figures) I could push the multiplier from native on/off CR to dynamic on/off CR up from maybe 3:1 or so to around 10:1 (100k:1 dynamic on/off CR) in the service menu, but it really didn't improve things that much. One reason is that the intra-image CR didn't improve in dark mixed images (or at least not much) as they mostly just dimmed everything down low (like 10% video level) more instead of just dimming black more. The JVC RS20 still looked like it had better CR in movies like Dark City even with the 100k:1 settings in the VW80 and that despite the VW80 having quite a bit more ANSI CR.

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post #273 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 03:06 AM
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Any word from Jason on the group buy? I emailed him awhile back but never got a reply so I just want to make sure I am not missing anything
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post #274 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 03:50 AM
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I was told towards the end of the month before he gets pricing.

Expect this thread to heat up with imminent reviews from projector central and projectorreviews. They should show up today or tomorrow and then the big question will be....when will the 8500 arrive and how much will it cost.
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post #275 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmalto View Post

Any word from Jason on the group buy? I emailed him awhile back but never got a reply so I just want to make sure I am not missing anything

I should have replied to everyone stating that I got their emails, so you might want to resend to jason@avscience.com. It is possible I didn't get it.

Fortunately nothing new yet. I have a lot of people on the list for when I get the details, but me thinks that Epson is figuring out where to position it price-wise with the announcement of the Panny pricing.
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post #276 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Art says the 9500's black level is a slight improvement over the 6500's. Evan says the AE4000 has the best contrast of any of last year's $3,000 or under projectors, which means it beats the 6500! So, I would expect the AE4000 to be at least as good as the 9500 for contrast (on/off?) or better. It'll be interesting when the actual reviews of the 8500/9500 come out.

For me "revolutionary" changes occurred when FI was added to projectors. That changed things enough for me that I jumped in.

I'd take those Pana CR comments by Evan with a big grain of salt. AE4000 has been measured to be a rather small improvement on AE3000, which was quite below 6500 native and dynamic. It seems to be the trend so far of improvements being on the functionality side rather than PQ.
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post #277 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 02saleen346 View Post

Greetings home theater projector fans.





....

I've got just a few links to images for you, although I took a lot of side by sides.

First are 9500UB vs. 6500UB images. Our first contestant is a space/stars scene from Space Cowboys. this link will open a 1000 pixel wide side by side image, with the new Pro Cinema 9500UB on the left, 6500UB on the right. You can definitely make out the difference in the blacks. It's not great, but there. Also the older Epson had a tendency of the blacks to have a slight redish caste, almost invisible, but always tends to show up on my dark photos. The new epson seems more neutral, in that regard.

The next image of Bond in Casino Royale - also comparing old Epson vs. new, is a photo that I really think captures the essence of the difference between the two projectors. The new 9500UB, and of course, therefore the Home Cinema 8500UB as well, seems to have just a bit better, more dynamic look.


The end - for now - - - art

Where are the links to the images?
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post #278 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 09:46 AM
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The images are linked from Art's early comments / blog, at http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...view/#more-555
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post #279 of 3635 Old 10-22-2009, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wohlstad View Post

I'd take those Pana CR comments by Evan with a big grain of salt. AE4000 has been measured to be a rather small improvement on AE3000, which was quite below 6500 native and dynamic. It seems to be the trend so far of improvements being on the functionality side rather than PQ.

Seems like this new review agrees with Evan's: click here
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post #280 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 04:05 AM
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FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...00ub/index.php
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post #281 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 05:51 AM
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The Cine4Home preview listed the native contrast at 3000:1 for the Panny AE4000 which is below the 6500 - but it did not have the full set of measurements with min / max zoom etc, so I'm not sure if those were measured numbers or not.
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post #282 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 07:08 AM
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Arts review says street price of under $2500 which is nice.

Basic Specs for Epson Home Cinema 8500UB
Street Price: Under $2500
Technology: 3LCD (Inorganic panels)
Native Resolution: 1080p (1920x1080)
Brightness: 1600 lumens claimed, over 1700 measured
Contrast: 200,000:1
Zoom Lens ratio: 2.1:1
Lens shift: Vertical and horizontal
Lamp life: 4000 hours at full power, 4000 hours in eco mode
Weight: 16.5 lbs. (7.4 Kg)
Warranty: 2 Years Parts and Labor, replacement program both years
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post #283 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 02:42 PM
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Projector central have their review up. Not very long and nothing really new:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...tor_review.htm

There will be a comparison to the ae4000 soon but if you read between the lines...it seems that epson still has the contrast advantage as expected.
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post #284 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 02:48 PM
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I got to wait till November after thanksgiving, which will mean at best the first week of Dec........agggh I sold my 6100 and I am having pj withdrawl

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post #285 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 03:13 PM
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Does anyone know which one is actually brighter(more lumens) between the 8500ub and the AE4000?
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post #286 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeratt View Post

Does anyone know which one is actually brighter(more lumens) between the 8500ub and the AE4000?

By all accounts, the Epson is brighter than the Panny. Though the Panny has improved over last year's model.
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post #287 of 3635 Old 10-23-2009, 09:00 PM
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Sweet, thx man. Been waiting all day for someone to answer lol. I think I'm give the epson a shot this time around as long as price is somewhat close to the Panny .
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post #288 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 12:44 AM
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Jeratt -- According to PJC, the Panny has an operating mode that has a brightness that is between the low and high brightness modes of the Epson. Evan has also posted his initial "Shoot-Out" between the AE4000 and HC8500UB (http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...nic_ae4000.htm).

Art has his preliminary Epson HC8500UB/9500UB review posted: http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...00ub/index.php.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #289 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT_Wiebe View Post

Jeratt -- According to PJC, the Panny has an operating mode that has a brightness that is between the low and high brightness modes of the Epson. Evan has also posted his initial "Shoot-Out" between the AE4000 and HC8500UB (http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...nic_ae4000.htm).

Art has his preliminary Epson HC8500UB/9500UB review posted: http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...00ub/index.php.


Thx CT that review was exactly what I was looking for...Right now it looks as though the 8500UB will be my next projector.
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post #290 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 04:12 AM
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Good comparison...........brighter AND blacker wins for me so there a 8500ub in my near future. Come on thanksgiving!

AV since 1980
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post #291 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 04:43 AM
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http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...ic_ae4000.htm#

So based on the epson 8500 vs Pana4000 the review seems to say:
Epson is brighter
has darker blacks for black scenes (think Sin City)
has a longer lasting bulb and cheaper replacements (so if you watch ALOT...)
much better warranty

Panasonic has:
better subjective image quality in dark rooms (NOT in ambient light situations)
slightly better contrast (for normal mixed scenes, with better colors in those scenes)
is less expensive by $400
better frame response for gamers
easier switching from 1.77:1 to 2.35:1 with memory modes (significant pain in the butt factor on a very few movies, like Dark Knight, which for some reason switch back and forth which will result in a 12 second processing image that CANT be turned off)


Overall Epson is the 'I'm going to watch this thing all the time' while playing pool or drinking at the bar downstairs, superbowl, etc. Panny seems to be the "batcave" projector for those who like the best image, or can't shell out the extra $, and don't watch 2+ hours per day.
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post #292 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 05:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cashstore View Post

Panny seems to be the "batcave" projector for those who like the best image, or can't shell out the extra $, and don't watch 2+ hours per day.


I even have a "batcave" but still prefer the brighter picture. I have a AE900 that just died on me(RIP lol) with a Da-Lite high power screen and my buddy has a AX-100(2000 lumens) that he displays on his regular white wall and his by far IMHO has a much better PQ...going brighter this time.
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post #293 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 06:02 AM
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I can't find a projector calculator on the 8500.

How big can I go from 18'? I have the Optoma 806 now projecting on a white wall, and I get a reasonably good picture at 144" diagonal
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post #294 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahro View Post

I can't find a projector calculator on the 8500.

How big can I go from 18'? I have the Optoma 806 now projecting on a white wall, and I get a reasonably good picture at 144" diagonal

According to the Epson calculator for the 6500 you could go up to 180" diagonal from 216" (18 feet).

I beleive the 8500 and 6500 have the same zoom capability.
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post #295 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeratt View Post

I even have a "batcave" but still prefer the brighter picture. I have a AE900 that just died on me(RIP lol) with a Da-Lite high power screen and my buddy has a AX-100(2000 lumens) that he displays on his regular white wall and his by far IMHO has a much better PQ...going brighter this time.

Yeah, but its only slightly brighter in a calibrated mode.

I just can't see how the Epson is a better deal unless you really need and will use the brightness you can achieve when not in a Cinema mode.

If they were selling for the same price it would be a tougher decision, but as it stands it looks to me like Panasonic is going to dominate the market this year.
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post #296 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BowWowz View Post

Yeah, but its only slightly brighter in a calibrated mode.

I just can't see how the Epson is a better deal unless you really need and will use the brightness you can achieve when not in a Cinema mode.

If they were selling for the same price it would be a tougher decision, but as it stands it looks to me like Panasonic is going to dominate the market this year.

No doubt that is likely true but my HT will still be rockin the epson
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post #297 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

According to the Epson calculator for the 6500 you could go up to 180" diagonal from 216" (18 feet).

I beleive the 8500 and 6500 have the same zoom capability.

Thanks, I wish I could get a sense if it is brighter than the Optoma 806 in Living room mode.
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post #298 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 09:55 AM
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Got my 1080 UB up for sale now that Im jonesing for this model. Held off on the 6500 but now I think its time Lol.

Its up in the sale forum if anyones interested.

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post #299 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by steevo123 View Post

Got my 1080 UB up for sale now that Im jonesing for this model. Held off on the 6500 but now I think its time Lol.

Its up in the sale forum if anyones interested.

The day my 8500 ships, I'll put my 1080 UB up for sale on eBay. Do you think I would get a higher price here on the forums?
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post #300 of 3635 Old 10-24-2009, 03:38 PM
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So according to projector central's shootout between the epson and panny the Epson has darker/better blacks and therefore better contrast when the image projected has substantial black components. However, "In scenes with more typical average light levels, the AE4000 renders them in higher contrast, with deeper color saturation and a bit more three- dimensionality" Which means according to projector central the Panasonic has better darker/better blacks more of the time and thus better contrast.....

Proj Cent's shootout also states in their Picture Quality section, "When viewed in a dark room, the AE4000 also has an incremental contrast advantage in most scenes that makes us prefer its image most of the time" .

And apparently you can get a second year warranty on the Panny by mailing in a rebate form once you receive the projector, which then equals the Epsons 2 year warranty... excluding the lamp usage portion.

So assuming someone, me, is going to purchase a new projector for a dedicated home theater room where ambient light control is not an issue it sounds like the Panasonic is the better buy as it has a cheaper price tag, "better" picture and equivalent warranty.... would you all agree?

note: I currently have an Epson so I am leaning toward Epson from the get go
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