Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 06:12 AM
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I played with one quite extensively last night (didn't have my camera so no pictures). THX mode is pretty good for primary/secondary colors out of the box, but grayscale was way off. Unlike the JVC, the Epson you can fine tune the colors and grayscale while in THX mode. However, the colors were actually slightly undersaturated, and you cannot bring them out. So after futzing with it for a while (damn learning curve) I found I needed to go into another mode (Theater Black 1) that starts with oversaturated colors, then I can use the CMS to dial them in more accurately. Takes more time, but it is more accurate. The only color I couldn't get within a dE of less than .4 (yes...POINT 4) was blue, but that was still less than dE of 1 (anything less than 3 you cannot see even if you know what you are looking for).

Long of the short for those who aren't calibrating, THX is probably the best mode to use. For those who are, you won't want to use that mode.

Physically it is the same case as the HC6500, same remote, etc... Even the box is essentially the same.
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post #812 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 06:12 AM
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Horta will have his tomorrow FYI so I am sure he will give some feedback over the weekend.
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post #813 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 06:50 AM
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How many lumens should we expect with the lamp set to high and using THX mode?
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post #814 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 06:54 AM
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Truth? Depends on the throw really. But, probably calibrated this is not a super bright projector.
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post #815 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 07:02 AM
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I realize that the thx mode is supposed to have the most accurate colors right out of the box of the standard presets..... Though color accuracy is important ... contrast and black levels are more important to me than having the color perfect. Which mode would be best to start with and tweak to achieve the best contrast/black levels while maintaining generally decent color accuracy?
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post #816 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobygt68 View Post

I realize that the thx mode is supposed to have the most accurate colors right out of the box of the standard presets..... Though color accuracy is important ... contrast and black levels are more important to me than having the color perfect. Which mode would be best to start with and tweak to achieve the best contrast/black levels while maintaining generally decent color accuracy?

Here in lies the problem. There is a lot of misinformation out there about the modes, especially pertaining to the Epson. The modes are nothing more than various adjustments of the provided settings...contrast, brightness, color, tint, gamma, grayscale, CMS and lamp mode. That is all there is...no magical changes amongst the various modes. It does not matter what mode you start with, if you properly calibrate (D65, Rec709, proper contrast/brightness so you aren't clipping/crushing, etc....) then all the modes will effectively turn out the same. You just have to do more adjusting when you start with some over the others. If you don't care about color accuracy and such, just use Dynamic...I got over 100k:1 contrast in that mode and nearly 1600 lumens (though it isn't accurate). It all depends on ones preferences and viewing habits.
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post #817 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 07:16 AM
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So your calibration, I assume you are concentrating mainly on color accuracy? What kinda lumen output are you getting once youve calibrated ?
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post #818 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 07:21 AM
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Generally when someone hires a person to calibrate (me or anyone), they are concentrating on accuracy. If it isn't desired, which is a personal choice, then no point in spending the money. At that point just dial it in by your own eye.

As far as light output, there are many factors that come into play. What are the particulars of your setup?
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post #819 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 08:00 AM
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Jason:

Thanks for the initial assessment. I'm guessing that you haven't had time to kick back and see how it performs much...but any impressions on any improvements this projector has over the 6500?
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post #820 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 08:02 AM
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Now wait. I thought the epson used a filter at higher brightness modes to fix color accuracy. So wouldn't calibrating the bright modes be different than calibrating lower modes?? Shouldn't you be able to get more lumens with decent color? If I understand you correctly there is nothing different in the modes at all. High lamp mode in all viewing modes is the same intensity, but only different because of the tweeks. I'm confused?
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post #821 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Generally when someone hires a person to calibrate (me or anyone), they are concentrating on accuracy. If it isn't desired, which is a personal choice, then no point in spending the money. At that point just dial it in by your own eye.

As far as light output, there are many factors that come into play. What are the particulars of your setup?

Room is 25' X 16.5' X 7.5'. Screen Mat'L is an elite maxwhite material with a 1.1 gain. Projector is 13' from the screen. Walls are a darker red, almost black flat paint. Ambient light is zero. Included a model of the room for conceptual use.
LL
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post #822 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Horta will have his tomorrow FYI so I am sure he will give some feedback over the weekend.

Yup Friday night, if all pans out it will be hooked up and I'll be watching it. I'll probably just quickly run thru AVIA and VE. For Christmas I will treat myself to the CalMan calibration tools. Then I will spend plenty of time dialing it in perfectly.

I cannot wait... I just want to say Thank you once again to Jason and AVS!!

Jerry

P.S. Tonight I will place my Epson 1080UB for sale on eBay. Let's not all put them all for sale at the same time and compete with each other. Lets stager them out and we all maximize and get the highest sale price.
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post #823 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

Truth? Depends on the throw really. But, probably calibrated this is not a super bright projector.

Really? Not that bright? I was holding off on this instead of the BenQW6000
Would you say then it's not as bright as the BenQ?

I have lots of ambient light, white walls and plantation shutters. Need the brightest one out but want accurate colors and blacks. I know.. impossible right?
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post #824 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

Really? Not that bright? I was holding off on this instead of the BenQW6000
Would you say then it's not as bright as the BenQ?

I have lots of ambient light, white walls and plantation shutters. Need the brightest one out but want accurate colors and blacks. I know.. impossible right?


Rememebr he is saying professionally calibrated and in the "Best" movie mode. Your current projector, have you ever had it ISF calibrated? Do you watch it in a super bright mode?
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post #825 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhunt17 View Post

Now wait. I thought the epson used a filter at higher brightness modes to fix color accuracy. So wouldn't calibrating the bright modes be different than calibrating lower modes?? Shouldn't you be able to get more lumens with decent color? If I understand you correctly there is nothing different in the modes at all. High lamp mode in all viewing modes is the same intensity, but only different because of the tweeks. I'm confused?

More accurate color yes...accurate color no. In addition, the grayscale is not accurate. It is very easy to make a projector appear brighter by skewing grayscale away from D65. Take the RS15 from JVC...rated at 1000 lumens. Many think the Epson has the ability of being brighter...but no. The JVC is rated at D65...in fact the other night for the heck of it I skewed the RS15 settings to be such like the dynamic mode in the Epson...got 1580 lumens.
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post #826 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

Really? Not that bright? I was holding off on this instead of the BenQW6000
Would you say then it's not as bright as the BenQ?

I have lots of ambient light, white walls and plantation shutters. Need the brightest one out but want accurate colors and blacks. I know.. impossible right?

The BenQ isn't that bright either when properly adjusted. I should add that the Epson is plenty bright for most people though.
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post #827 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 09:28 AM
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Are you saying I should cancel my 8500 order and drop twice the price on a JVC
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post #828 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobygt68 View Post

Are you saying I should cancel my 8500 order and drop twice the price on a JVC

No spend 20x on a Lumis. Seriously, it is a great projector and for the price tough to beat. But a lot of the performance has to do with the setup one decides to use...that's all.
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post #829 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 09:58 AM
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Jason, I understand what you are saying - 'calibration' refers to color accuracy. I definitely want the accuracy (and yes, that is what I'm paying for), but I'd also be willing to sacrifice 1% in color accuracy to gain 15% in brightness... I think this is also what scoobygt68 is saying. I don't think the tradeoff is actually that severe, but we just wanted to put that out there.

At the end of the day, what I really want is the most enjoyable viewing experience.

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post #830 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 10:00 AM
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Personally I think every retailer except AVS has been underestimating the delivery date just to pick up extra sales. Epson just isn't sending that many out and they started after Thanksgiving which is what Jason has been saying all along.
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post #831 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 10:00 AM
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I talked to Epson...supposedly the Dynamic Mode has a feature allow one to calibrate with higher light output. I will believe it when I see it but I don't have another to test at the moment.

I should mention that it is known that it isn't exactly correct (from a calibration standpoint) when doing it this way...
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post #832 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 10:31 AM
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Sorry to beat the horse dead... but Jason I'm curious as to how many preorders you already have?
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post #833 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

The BenQ isn't that bright either when properly adjusted. I should add that the Epson is plenty bright for most people though.

So side by side for the BenQ and the Epson, which one is brighter? I need it since I don't have a cave and my white walls and ambient light is staying that way per WAF

BTW, anyone know when Art is updating competitive comparison of the 8500 vs. W6000? it's blank here http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...petitors.php#4
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post #834 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

So side by side for the BenQ and the Epson, which one is brighter? I need it since I don't have a cave and my white walls and ambient light is staying that way per WAF

BTW, anyone know when Art is updating competitive comparison of the 8500 vs. W6000? it's blank here http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...petitors.php#4

I have the 6500UB and it is plenty bright in brighter modes. Using Theater Black modes you will want to save for movie viewing at night. I use Living Room for watching cable and movies during the day. I use Dynamic for gaming...day or night. Theater Black I save for watching movies at night, when it is dark out and the lights are off. I still have minor ambient light at night and I have white walls/ceiling as well. Get blackout curtains for all your windows, it helps a lot.
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post #835 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 11:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetfreaky View Post

So side by side for the BenQ and the Epson, which one is brighter? I need it since I don't have a cave and my white walls and ambient light is staying that way per WAF

BTW, anyone know when Art is updating competitive comparison of the 8500 vs. W6000? it's blank here http://www.projectorreviews.com/epso...petitors.php#4

http://www.projectorreviews.com/benq...petitors.php#1

For "best mode" (movie viewing) the BenQ should be brighter. For living room mode, say daytime sports viewing with decent color, the Epson should be brighter.

I have a similar room, large open to the rest of the house, big windows with daytime light pouring in, all white walls and ceiling. I'm pairing the W6000 with a 159" High Power this weekend. I'll let you know how it works out.
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post #836 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 12:25 PM
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Both the 8500 and 9500 really need to be run in dynamic/vivid mode with external filters. I have 7500 that I'm using with filters - I was never completely happy with it's performance until I put it in vivid mode with external filters and calibrated it. You can spend $100 on filters and obtain a marked improvement in image quality or spend an additional $4,500 on a processor or anamorpic lens or even a more expensive projector and obain a noticeable degradation in image quality. I should know - been there and done that.
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post #837 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Both the 8500 and 9500 really need to be run in dynamic/vivid mode with external filters. I have 7500 that I'm using with filters - I was never completely happy with it's performance until I put it in vivid mode with external filters and calibrated it. You can spend $100 on filters and obtain a marked improvement in image quality or spend an additional $4,500 on a processor or anamorpic lens or even a more expensive projector and obain a noticeable degradation in image quality. I should know - been there and done that.

What Filter are you using?
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post #838 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Both the 8500 and 9500 really need to be run in dynamic/vivid mode with external filters. I have 7500 that I'm using with filters - I was never completely happy with it's performance until I put it in vivid mode with external filters and calibrated it. You can spend $100 on filters and obtain a marked improvement in image quality or spend an additional $4,500 on a processor or anamorpic lens or even a more expensive projector and obain a noticeable degradation in image quality. I should know - been there and done that.

Where did you buy the filters from?

I have read several times about a filter system available from Cine4Home, but have not found anyone in the US that is selling or using them for calibration.

Ps. I tried to talk Jason into it, but he is too busy with all of his other projects to pick up a new one....... unless we all "whine!" All together now........ WAH!


Pss..... as long as you are diagnosing room requirements Jason... new new theater is 23.5' x 20' x 8.5' The walls are not painted but rather cedar wood and the cement ceiling was painted by my bride to resemble the interior ceiling of a barn. So not a lot of reflected light. The Theater is in the basement with no exterior windows, but I would want some ambient lights (at least the ceiling rope lights) on for watching sports. I am currently using the Elite 135" diag screen with thier Power Gain (1.8) material. However, I plan on moving to a 150" with the same material... I had planned on a 165" but the front stage that hides the center speaker and sub-woofers turns out to be about 3" too tall to allow my to use the 165" screen.

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post #839 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Both the 8500 and 9500 really need to be run in dynamic/vivid mode with external filters. I have 7500 that I'm using with filters - I was never completely happy with it's performance until I put it in vivid mode with external filters and calibrated it. You can spend $100 on filters and obtain a marked improvement in image quality or spend an additional $4,500 on a processor or anamorpic lens or even a more expensive projector and obain a noticeable degradation in image quality. I should know - been there and done that.

Mr. Vu

Would you mind shareing with us what fliters and where you got them from? I would be very interested to try this out.

Thank you
Jerry
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post #840 of 3635 Old 12-03-2009, 03:36 PM
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Just received an email from PJ people that my 8500 has shipped. Can't wait!

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