Epson 8500UB 200,000:1 CR - AVS Forum
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:09 PM - Thread Starter
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This just posted on Projectorcentral.com

Epson will be announcing four new 1080p models next week. Among them will be the Powerlite Home Cinema 8500 UB, a model that replaces last year's 6500 UB. New or upgraded features on the 8500 UB include a whopping 200,000:1 contrast ratio, a substantially upgraded frame interpolation system, and a new Super Resolution feature that renders additional sharpness and detail without traditional edge enhancement. We saw this unit in action last week. It definitely has a WOW factor that will create a lot of buzz. Expect long lines at Epson's booth on the CEDIA show floor. We will get the 8500UB in for review right after the show.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...s&entry_id=287
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_D_A_M View Post

This just posted on Projectorcentral.com

Epson will be announcing four new 1080p models next week. Among them will be the Powerlite Home Cinema 8500 UB, a model that replaces last year's 6500 UB. New or upgraded features on the 8500 UB include a whopping 200,000:1 contrast ratio, a substantially upgraded frame interpolation system, and a new Super Resolution feature that renders additional sharpness and detail without traditional edge enhancement. We saw this unit in action last week. It definitely has a WOW factor that will create a lot of buzz. Expect long lines at Epson's booth on the CEDIA show floor. We will get the 8500UB in for review right after the show.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/proj...s&entry_id=287

Pending price, looks like I might upgrade next year...lol. I have only had the 6500UB for about 6 months. If it hits the mid to high $1,000 range I am in. I am hoping an MSRP of $2,499 and a street price of about $1,999.
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Old 09-02-2009, 04:31 PM
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Thanks, very exciting stuff. Too bad they didn't implement a memory zoom ala the 3000.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A_D_A_M View Post

New or upgraded features on the 8500 UB include a whopping 200,000:1 contrast ratio ...

That sounds great, but unfortunately it doesn't really tell us what they did with native on/off CR and whether they decided to push the trick/idea of waiting for a black screen to be up for a while and then slowly dimming things down. I don't recall what Epson did there with the 6500UB, but with the Panasonic AE3000 they would start dimming things after a blackout had been up for a second or so and then it would take around 12 seconds to get to the darkest black for their spec. And it didn't do that in normal modes where native was something like 2k:1 with dynamic at around 6k:1. I think the Panasonic only does that in Dynamic mode that has messed up color conversion. For all we know at this point (at least those of us how don't have inside knowledge of them) they could extend a 12 second dimming to even longer for higher specs even though it would largely be useless for real watching. I would like to see something like on/off CR within 1/24th of a second and within 1 second in a calibrated and reasonably usable mode.

That said, overall the 6500UB was pretty impressive for on/off CR (especially for its price) and it would be nice if they found a way to do something like double the native on/off CR. It did seem like the 6500UB had this locked in edge enhancement thing that couldn't be disabled and made the images impressive in one way, but gave things a digital kind of look to my eyes.

Pricing will be interesting too. My memory is that Epson started quite a bit higher than Panasonic for their pricing last year and now they are close to the same or it could be argued that the 6500UB is lower than the AE3000 (because of the rebate for the extra bulb with the 6500UB).

--Darin

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Old 09-02-2009, 05:50 PM
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well the contrast numbers these manufacturers come up with these days are just redicilous anyways. Im much more interested in seing what their "substantially upgraded frame interpolation system" can do.
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:51 PM
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Very good points Darin. I have measured many of the 6500UB (claim 75000:1) and none came anywhere near that. We'll have to see.

Never the less...we'll be offering a preorder on it as always.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:37 PM
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They still offer a fantastic performance to price ratio, all things considered, since the current model is pretty far below even the $3000 price point with a free bulb to boot. Too bad they don't post native CR though, since it is eye opening.

Dan
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:39 PM
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Agreed. I just wish the LCD companies would be more realistic...it gets confusing for some people...
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Old 09-02-2009, 08:01 PM
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This is what I was waiting to read. If it is under $3k I wish to be one of the first to order one...
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:43 PM
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Hopefully someone at Epson will actually thoroughly test the FI before release. The upgraded FI when set to "low" on the 6500/7500 now works well; however, when set to "normal" or "high" there are still some problems. I find it hard to believe anyone actually had a look at the FI before the 6500/7500 release. Maybe Epson learned a lesson. I sure hope so!
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Hopefully someone at Epson will actually thoroughly test the FI before release. The upgraded FI when set to "low" on the 6500/7500 now works well; however, when set to "normal" or "high" there are still some problems. I find it hard to believe anyone actually had a look at the FI before the 6500/7500 release. Maybe Epson learned a lesson. I sure hope so!

I am sure after the issues with the 6500UB they will get it right the first time. I would be more worried about the new feature they are adding.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:39 AM
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As far as price on this one, I don't know what it will be, but from looking at the cine4home.de site for last year it looks like the MSRP in Euros for the TW5000 (I think that is the same as the 6500UB) was $2999 and according to the cineston.org site the TW5500 is shown as $3299 Euros at IFA. Projectorcentral.com lists the MSRP of the 6500UB as $2999, but they also show the street price as higher and there is a dual rebate ($400 and an extra lamp) right now. That had a $500 rebate in February, but I don't recall whether they had a rebate from day 1.

At prices like these I might be tempted away from the JVC offerings. It depends on multiple factors, like how good JVC's frame interpolation mode is and whether this Epson can be made to not have too much of a digital look for me. Also, how much the native on/off CR is improved with the Epson and how well their dynamic iris modes work. Looking forward to seeing it at CEDIA.

--Darin

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Old 09-03-2009, 09:04 AM
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I hope they improve the lens shift. My 6500UB is great in every other regard, but the lens shift is slightly different every time I turn it on. And the lens shift adjustment mechanism is flimsy and difficult to fine-tune (since the horizontal and vertical are closely coupled to each other, resulting in diagonal motion for both).

The 'Low' FI mode seems about perfect for everything, but 'Normal' and higher still results in awful artifacts. Improvements in these FI modes would be welcome in the 8500UB.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:20 AM
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Some interesting infos from here:

http://www.golem.de/0909/69575.html

(1) Super-Resolution compares pixels with previous and next frames to sort out to sort out "color errors" caused by "bad sampling". Epson believes to get improved sharpness and shadow detail this way. The description reads weird to me.
(2) Panel is still D7.
(3) New cooling solution to lower fan noise. 1600 Lumens with 22db.
(4) Available in November 2009 for 3299 Euros.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

(I think that is the same as the 6500UB)

I believe the TW5000 is the 7500UB without the extra bulb. The TW5000 has the anamorphic stretch at least which I think only the 7500 model has in the US.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:39 AM
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At IFA today Epson announced following models:
eh-tw5500 (replacement for 7500UB) - 200000:1 CR, 1600lm, FI, at 3300euro (available in November)
eh-tw4400 (replacement for 6500UB) - 130000:1 CR, 1600lm, FI, at 2800euro (available in November)
eh-tw3500 (replacement for 7100) - 36000:1 CR, 1800lm, at 1800 euro (available in September)
eh-tw2900 (replacement for 6100) - 18000:1 CR, 1600lm, at 1600 euro (available in September)

new US model numbers are unknown, replacement info I've prepared myself based on last year EU range
as for the price I believe it will be the same but nominated in USD

What interesting is that Epson has changed marketing approach and there is broader distance between models then before.
Last year there were not so much reasons to buy 7500UB instead of 6500UB. 7500UB looked like black painted 6500UB for extra $1K.
Now expensive models have clear advantages...
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Old 09-03-2009, 12:09 PM
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I'm kind of disappointed. Great specs no doubt, but I was hoping they would spiff up the looks a bit. It still looks like an office presentation projector to me. I'm pretty sure I will be getting a 6500 now as it was largely the appearance I was looking to see improvement in. Will have to see how the price structure is in Canada for the new models first but the slightly lower street price with $400 rebate + bulb is looking sweeter now.

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Old 09-03-2009, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Scrimpin View Post

I'm kind of disappointed. Great specs no doubt, but I was hoping they would spiff up the looks a bit. It still looks like an office presentation projector to me. I'm pretty sure I will be getting a 6500 now as it was largely the appearance I was looking to see improvement in. Will have to see how the price structure is in Canada for the new models first but the slightly lower street price with $400 rebate + bulb is looking sweeter now.

Fair warning the 6500 is end of life in about a week (and extremely difficult to find now). If that is what you want, jump soon.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:36 PM
 
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Sam Runco once gave a speech on how they used to rate the lumens on the old CRT systems. If one company had a projector that was rated at 500 lumens and he thought his projector was twice is bright, he would say that his projector was 1000 lumens. Of course this was many many many years ago when projectors where in the infant stage. I sometimes wonder if the current manufacturers use that same method
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

(2) Panel is still D7.

This combined with a translation I read from the cineston.org site which mentioned a new dynamic iris dual layer makes me wonder if the native on/off CR will be close to the same with the DI enabled, but with more tricks to get close to 200k:1 while measuring.

I don't recall how loud the iris was in the 6500UB, but in the previous model I remember it being pretty loud.

--Darin

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Old 09-03-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

This combined with a translation I read from the cineston.org site which mentioned a new dynamic iris dual layer makes me wonder if the native on/off CR will be close to the same with the DI enabled, but with more tricks to get close to 200k:1 while measuring.

I don't recall how loud the iris was in the 6500UB, but in the previous model I remember it being pretty loud.

--Darin

It's the same...a low gurgling sound, sort of like a coffee pot. Knock on wood they will eliminate that.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:54 PM
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Just talked to the NSM for Epson. They don't even have established the pricing yet officially in the US. Specs too are not finalized. They plan to announce at the show first.

Good thing that is within 1 week!

I plan to order a large batch of the 6500 replacement once they open up for it.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Turk View Post

It's the same...a low gurgling sound, sort of like a coffee pot. Knock on wood they will eliminate that.

My Panasonic AE900 makes the same sound with it's DI.

I'll be happy to be saying good-bye to that sound soon.
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

This combined with a translation I read from the cineston.org site which mentioned a new dynamic iris dual layer makes me wonder if the native on/off CR will be close to the same with the DI enabled, but with more tricks to get close to 200k:1 while measuring.

There was a time when I thought that a panel had a fixed native contrast. But there are 2 instances which make me reconsider:

(1) IIRC Epson has already been using D7 for current models and previous models. They managed to noticeably increase native contrast with current models compared to previous models, although both used D7 panels.
(2) Current information indicates that both HW15 and VW85 still use exactly the same panels as the HW10/VW70/80, but due to a light path redesign native contrast seems to be about doubled with HW15 and VW85.

So maybe there is a chance that Epson got around actually improving native contrast even further. I mean their ratio of native to dynamic contrast is already very high with about 10:1. I really hope they don't try to inflate that even further. Sony seems to stick with around 5:1...
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post

There was a time when I thought that a panel had a fixed native contrast. But there are 2 instances which make me reconsider:

(1) IIRC Epson has already been using D7 for current models and previous models. They managed to noticeably increase native contrast with current models compared to previous models, although both used D7 panels.
(2) Current information indicates that both HW15 and VW85 still use exactly the same panels as the HW10/VW70/80, but due to a light path redesign native contrast seems to be about doubled with HW15 and VW85...

You are right. Last year the LCDs were able to double their native CR by adding better per and cleanup polarization steps to their light engine. Sony appears to have done the same this year by focusing on light scatter reduction along with cleanup polarization.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dysfunction26 View Post

Pending price, looks like I might upgrade next year...lol. I have only had the 6500UB for about 6 months. If it hits the mid to high $1,000 range I am in. I am hoping an MSRP of $2,499 and a street price of about $1,999.

Don't hold your breath. It's more likely that the initial 8500UB price will be around $500 more than the initial 6500UB price was, especially if they made some real improvements (as opposed to advertising copy). I'm guessing an MSRP closer to the $3499 to $3999 range.

We'll see in about a week, or so. I'm sure Jason will keep us informed.

I'd say that you should keep your 6500UB for at least another 6 months, or more. "Upgrade-itis" is a vicious disease.

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Old 09-03-2009, 06:38 PM
 
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I would assume it should be close to the price of the 6500. I couldnt imagine it being in the 1000 range
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:43 PM
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I am also interested and cannot wait to see the reviews on these new units.
I dont even have a PJ yet, and I am addicted to these threads

That being said, I saw an Epson 7500UB at a dealer. I thought it gave a pretty nice film image. I definatley like it better than the Panny.

Can anyone tell me in a dark room environment what am I looking for regarding the contrast etc. I am not sure I understand what to look for in these new Epson PJ's with my situation where I will never watch tv, but just movies in a dark setting.

If I were to choose from these new models with the advertised contrast, what benefit will it have in a dark room environment?

Thanks

Dave
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:06 PM
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Well I have a Epson 1080UB. I love it but since it still worth a good amount in the used market I might as well upgrade. Am I unhappy with my 1080ub, not at all. If anything I love it and am excited of what this next upgrade will bring.

The single only thing I do wish for is that the 8500 comes set for a CH set-up. If some one can confirm that let us all know. CH my be my next step.

Jerry
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:27 PM
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Studio2000 -- Excellent shadow details in dark scenes. And don't believe the advertised claims for contrast ratios. They are never true (unachievable with real world video sources), with an extremely few exceptions.

PS -- Using it only for movies is a waste of resources and a really nice big screen experience. There are some excellent HDTV programs, too. Remember, any PJ should be left on for a minimum of 2 hours. Turning them on and off like a regular TV set will burn out the lamp much faster than running it for 4 hours at a time. When we turn on our PJ, it usually stays on (and being watched) for at least 6 hours (TV + a movie or 2, or even just HDTV).

EDIT: Also, you will need to learn how to calibrate it (unless you want to hire a professional to do it). Most PJs are not at their best out-of-the-box, and the default settings are less than ideal, too.

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