Panasonic PT-AE4000 Projector Unveiled - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 874 Old 09-06-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Kamus View Post

Well, you can always buy two projectors that will result in a better experience anyway, since you get more light output.

I currently have two sharp DT-510's for my 3d setup using Infitec glasses (no need for a silver screen this way.)
It was very cheap to setup, i wish it was 1080p and i wish i had lens shift. but other than that the experience is amazing.
The only problem is lack of content, games look great. but there's nothing but short clips for video material, if i had at least two good HD 3d movies i'd be very happy.

So. For 1080p the projectors can cost you as little as 2k with those new DLP machines, or a bit more with those viewsonics that recently dropped a lot in price (this way you get lens shift, which is nice to have since otherwise you HAVE to use keystone.)

Bottom line is:
you can get a really high quality 3d setup right now, but we need the content for it.

Yes but with this new format it's going to be amazing. I mean out of this world amazing. It's going to be every bit as good as any Real 3D cinema presentation and maybe even better since it's your home and you can get the very best seating position and control many factors of the performance.

The content will make the most of the 3D although it probably requires HDMI 1.4 and the final specifications are to be agreed this December. Panasonic though have already agreed on major deals for their system and it would have been great to have them thinking about this and making their projector 120hz capable in advance of the Blu Ray players arriviving next year.

I'm sure 120hz can't cost that much to add as a feature although perhaps HDMI 1.4 is not yet finalised but i'm thinking HDMI 1.3 might carry the signal anyway.

It's a big coup though to get Avatar in 3D for the home just as you would at the cinema. No inferior 3D processes which result in poor colors or halo's just pure perfect 3D for the home.
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post #92 of 874 Old 09-06-2009, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post

Yeah, we all know there's no possibility for the majority to be wrong...

But anyway, my take on this one is that Panasonic is very good at packing features, but they need to improve their PQ, they've fallen behind.
Either that or make it a ~1500 projector, then it would be a very compelling trade off.
(i sure as hell wouldn't mind paying 1,500 for one, but i consider the price on the 3000 too steep for the performance you get out of it.)

Simple survival of the fittest. If you have a poor product your business will fail. If you meet the needs of your target market, you will thrive.
Have you seen this PJ? And what have you seen that the two top projector review sites on the web haven't seen? It's an awesome projector and a great value already.
Keep waiting, you will get your price point.

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post #93 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Yes but with this new format it's going to be amazing. I mean out of this world amazing. It's going to be every bit as good as any Real 3D cinema presentation and maybe even better since it's your home and you can get the very best seating position and control many factors of the performance.

The content will make the most of the 3D although it probably requires HDMI 1.4 and the final specifications are to be agreed this December. Panasonic though have already agreed on major deals for their system and it would have been great to have them thinking about this and making their projector 120hz capable in advance of the Blu Ray players arriving next year.

I'm sure 120hz can't cost that much to add as a feature although perhaps HDMI 1.4 is not yet finalized but i'm thinking HDMI 1.3 might carry the signal anyway.

It's a big coup though to get Avatar in 3D for the home just as you would at the cinema. No inferior 3D processes which result in poor colors or halo's just pure perfect 3D for the home.

Unfortunately HDMI 1.3 can't carry 120Hz at 1920x1080. It will only go as high as 1680x1050.
I know because I am a big gamer who also uses Nvidias 3D Vision and there are no monitors capable of 1920x1080 at 120Hz. We need HDMI 1.4.

It sucks because I really wanted the Panasonic to be 3D ready and not use some trick to display 100Hz technology. The same goes for all LCD TV's on the market. They aren't true 120Hz or 240Hz. They are only 60Hz with the TV changing it and not true technology.
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post #94 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by CraigCooper View Post

Unfortunately HDMI 1.3 can't carry 120Hz at 1920x1080. It will only go as high as 1680x1050.
I know because I am a big gamer who also uses Nvidias 3D Vision and there are no monitors capable of 1920x1080 at 120Hz. We need HDMI 1.4.

It sucks because I really wanted the Panasonic to be 3D ready and not use some trick to display 100Hz technology. The same goes for all LCD TV's on the market. They aren't true 120Hz or 240Hz. They are only 60Hz with the TV changing it and not true technology.


So in other words, HDMI 1.3 is more than enough for 3d in movies @1080p, but we will need 1.4 for 60 hz gaming @1080p.

Remember... movies run at only 24 FPS, the display device itself could be the one burdened with the extra flashing, it doesn't have to be the source itself. (pretty much the same way it is right now for those "120" and "240"Hz TV's. and their FI)

In the end, you really only need 48Hz (not even 60 Hz) for two different video streams @1080p for movies.
This is not an engineering challenge at all IMO... we're good!

Gaming of course, is a different story.. but there aren't enough 1080p console games to worry about this anyway, most of them run at 720p, and making them run in 3d today's consoles would have trouble even at 720p, 1080p would be out of the question for most games in 3d with current consoles.
So, i don't see how HDMI 1.4 is really that needed until the next generation of consoles. (PC is a different story however.)

So, we have to wonder why the reason for 1.4 is going to be pushed with 3d next year...
Now we wait and see.
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post #95 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post

So, we have to wonder why the reason for 1.4 is going to be pushed with 3d next year...


To sell more cables, basically you always need to figure out how to make something obsolete that doesn't wear out in order to keep revenues flowing.

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post #96 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

To sell more cables, basically you always need to figure out how to make something obsolete that doesn't wear out in order to keep revenues flowing.

Secrets has a pretty good discussion about this:

http://cave.hometheaterhifi.com/grou...riouslyhdmi-14

Just type the "p/cables/forum/topics/se" in where the ... is
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post #97 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bujee1 View Post

By the way, part of the reason I bought an AE3000 is because of the way it looks. It looks like a man's projector for a man's room. No girly curves to be found anywhere. No white or beige colors to blend in with a white ceiling that your wife won't let you paint.

I like this statement.

The Panny doesn't fit into every room, but for the rooms it does fit in with, few other PJs would look as good in said room.

-Suntan
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post #98 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 12:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post

So in other words, HDMI 1.3 is more than enough for 3d in movies @1080p, but we will need 1.4 for 60 hz gaming @1080p.

Remember... movies run at only 24 FPS, the display device itself could be the one burdened with the extra flashing, it doesn't have to be the source itself. (pretty much the same way it is right now for those "120" and "240"Hz TV's. and their FI)

In the end, you really only need 48Hz (not even 60 Hz) for two different video streams @1080p for movies.
This is not an engineering challenge at all IMO... we're good!

Gaming of course, is a different story.. but there aren't enough 1080p console games to worry about this anyway, most of them run at 720p, and making them run in 3d today's consoles would have trouble even at 720p, 1080p would be out of the question for most games in 3d with current consoles.
So, i don't see how HDMI 1.4 is really that needed until the next generation of consoles. (PC is a different story however.)

So, we have to wonder why the reason for 1.4 is going to be pushed with 3d next year...
Now we wait and see.

Thats not the way i read it with the Panasonic release statements for their upcoming Blu Ray 3D capable players.

They said it would be two streams running at 60hz each for Blu Ray 3D movies.

What you say though does make sense to me but i think there are issues running 3D content at 48hz otherwise they wouldn't be going with 60hz x 2 for 120hz 3D content.

I need to read up on this some more though. Perhaps the wires got crossed and i read it wrong but i think their are quality control issues which make 120hz better for 3D content. Therefore HDMI 1.4 is needed.
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post #99 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I need to read up on this some more though. Perhaps the wires got crossed and i read it wrong but i think their are quality control issues which make 120hz better for 3D content. Therefore HDMI 1.4 is needed.

60 Hz for each eye means that there's very little (if any) noticeable flicker.

Movies however, would have some judder at 60Hz each. (i think this is the reason Sony is going 240Hz instead of 120.)

Now, again... the flashing doesn't need to happen at the source, it can be done by the display device instead.
So, 48Hz gets all of the info that the display needs to make it either 120 or 240 Hz. That is what i meant earlier.
Games on the other hand, would look horrible at 24 FPS, and the extra flashing wouldn't really do anything for them since there's a lot of motion involved, so for games the flashing needs to happen at the source.
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post #100 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 07:52 PM
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Another video from Phil Hinton of AVForums.tv:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QON8OdvLV5k

No mention of whether lens memory has discrete codes, and it looks like a second button push may still be needed to exit the menu.

The auto switching function at first looked really slick. My wife would like it, she hates having to adjust anything. Apparently it only switches between two named memory settings (at 2:09), not intermediate aspects like 1.85 or 2.2.

But that's a minor quibble, the big problem is that Panasonic seems to have rendered the auto switching function essentially useless by flashing a stupid PROCESSING message while it zooms! The zoom itself is quick, but the projector continues to flash the message long after the zoom is apparently done.



Someone please tell me there's a way to turn off this message?

If not, forget about using this feature on movies like The Dark Knight with different aspects. You'll have to endure twelve long seconds of flashing each time it changes.

That could have been a killer feature, why did they have to cripple it?
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post #101 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post

cool, thanx. never seen it in action. LOVE the memory feature.

i wonder if the ae3000 prices will drop ? a lot ?

Ordered one for $1999 today. I hope the 4000 doesn't drop in price quickly, or I might regret my decision.
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post #102 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 08:09 PM
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I agree this would be a dealbreaker for me if 1) the processing message shows during transition of aspect ratios.

I might be ok with changing from a 16:9 to 2:35 knowing I am jumping from HDTV to a 2:35 movie, but if there is a delay and a message shows processing during movie transitions such as Transformers 2 or Dark Night then this would be a moot feature. It would not be a feature for me. More of annoyance

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post #103 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus View Post

So in other words, HDMI 1.3 is more than enough for 3d in movies @1080p, but we will need 1.4 for 60 hz gaming @1080p.

Remember... movies run at only 24 FPS, the display device itself could be the one burdened with the extra flashing, it doesn't have to be the source itself. (pretty much the same way it is right now for those "120" and "240"Hz TV's. and their FI)

In the end, you really only need 48Hz (not even 60 Hz) for two different video streams @1080p for movies.
This is not an engineering challenge at all IMO... we're good!

Gaming of course, is a different story.. but there aren't enough 1080p console games to worry about this anyway, most of them run at 720p, and making them run in 3d today's consoles would have trouble even at 720p, 1080p would be out of the question for most games in 3d with current consoles.
So, i don't see how HDMI 1.4 is really that needed until the next generation of consoles. (PC is a different story however.)

So, we have to wonder why the reason for 1.4 is going to be pushed with 3d next year...
Now we wait and see.

I understand what you are saying. I mean' that none of the LCD TV's ATM are true 120Hz or 240Hz. They are really only 60Hz and the jump to 120Hz is done in the TV. It is a cheats way and not true 120Hz. If you want to try it out, just plug your PC into the TV. You won't be able to set it to 120. It will top out at 60Hz.
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post #104 of 874 Old 09-08-2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CraigCooper View Post

I understand what you are saying. I mean' that none of the LCD TV's ATM are true 120Hz or 240Hz. They are really only 60Hz and the jump to 120Hz is done in the TV. It is a cheats way and not true 120Hz. If you want to try it out, just plug your PC into the TV. You won't be able to set it to 120. It will top out at 60Hz.

Yeah, that was my whole point in case you missed it :P
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post #105 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 02:32 AM
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I can't understand why you want to use automatic aspect ratio changes during movies?

The AE4000 apparently has a several second delay before it starts to change. This will mean that the zoom will at first stay the same after an AR change and then start to change in the middle of the scene. That would bug the crap out of me!

And there is no alternative. There is a reason to why there is a delay. If the zoom was immediate it would start for all small 2 second shoots that are spread throughout the movie, and then immediately go back. Zoom in and out all the time. I would go nuts!

Isn't it better to just watch the movie in either 16:9 mode or just crop it to 2.35:1?
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post #106 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 02:38 AM
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Will, if I didn't get ribbed once in a while, it would get pretty dull around here.

RE 3D: Interesting discussion. I haven't looked () into the 3D projection world at all. However, at a JPL open house that I attended several years ago, I sat in on a 3D presentation that was done with a PJ and 60Hz switched glasses. I have no idea what resolution it was, but the display was nice and sharp (it was likely at 720p - another SWAG, since ther weren't any 1080p PJs at the time).

{Yes Will, "S" = Scientific }

I tend to agree that 120Hz isn't needed for a decent 3D presentation. 60Hz would be "good enough" for 1080p/30 material and 96Hz would be more than good enough for 1080p/24 movies (24Hz x 2 to get rid of the judder and another 2x for the 3D effect).

The other question is: how fast can the Epson D7 panels be driven? We may have to wait for D8 panels before we get the capability of true 120Hz performance for 3D - if 120Hz is needed at all.

I agree with Bob Whitefield and others. That "Processing" message is a real bummer, and especially when it sticks around "forever". It should be very obvious when the PJ is changing aspect ratios. There is absolutely no need to tell the viewer that it is doing so. Another brilliant marketing feature.

Hopefully we will have more details by the end of this week (from CEDIA).

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #107 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 04:30 AM
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They posted a video earlier of the zoom memory feature and I was thinking the same thing in regards to the "processing" message. Why do we need to know that it is processing? We can obviously see the image changing. Maybe it's for people who are clueless and wouldn't understand why the screen suddenly changes??
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post #108 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 06:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

Maybe it's for people who are clueless and wouldn't understand why the screen suddenly changes??

After it switches and the zooming stops, the PJ intentionally throws the focus out of adjustment and then dials it back in before completing the entire routine and dumping you back to the AR selection menu. My guess is that the Processing sign (and the need to make you close the menu screen afterwards) is there to keep people from complaining that the PJ can't stay focused when you use the zoom feature. Because J6P is going to scrutinize the changes most heavily *right* after he sees the screen stop getting bigger/smaller

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post #109 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 07:51 AM
 
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I still don't understand why anyone thinks this feature is remotely useful for a movie like TDK.

If you have a 1.78 screen, you don't need to do anything.

If you have a 2.35 screen, you just need to mask top/bottom (blank or crop the image) to 2.35.

This feature only lets you auto-zoom the 1.78 scenes to screen height, making them *smaller* than the rest of the film- completely opposite what is intended.
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post #110 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 08:07 AM
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Thanks for the clarification.

I dont think I understood this projectors intent.

I at first wonder why the feature is there because if I have a 2:35 screen (zoomed to 2:35) I understand that I just cropped off the top and bottom - thus no black bars.

Then let say I watch 16:9 material (with zoom lens in same position) wouldnt the image just be smaller in width (black bars on sides) for a 16:9 thus if I watched a movie like TDK it would switch to 16:9 anyway just losing some real estate on 16:9 material? (I am talking in general about any PJ - not necessarily this zoom feature) Couldnt this work on any PJ - Thus not needing these auto features the Panasonic provides?

Am I understanding this?

Dave
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post #111 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 08:10 AM
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2.35:1 is just 16:9 with the top and bottom cut off in terms of Bluray. So when something goes from 2.35:1 to 16:9 an image appears on the top and bottom which goes off your 2.35:1 screen
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post #112 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 08:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Studio2000 View Post

Thanks for the clarification.

I dont think I understood this projectors intent. I at first wonder why the feature is there because if I have a 2:35 screen (zoomed to 2:35) I understand that I just cropped off the top and bottom - thus no black bars Then let say I watch 16:9 material (with zoom lens in same position) wouldnt the image just be smaller in width (black bars on sides) for a 16:9 thus if I watched a movie like TDK it would switch to 16:9 anyway just losing size on 16:9 material?

Plese explain how this works, because I had this PJ as a possibility, but wrote it off my list. Maybe because I dont understand fully.

Dave

This feature is intended (mostly) for a CIH setup like yours; for 2.35 material you have a setting that zooms the projector to fit the screen's width. For 1.78 material it auto-zooms to fit the screen height (with black bars on both sides). So as you switch from ESPN over to a 2.35 Blu-ray, the projector auto-zooms and the image fills the width of the screen. This is where the feature is useful.

A movie like TDK you wouldn't want the auto-zoom setting, you'd just want to keep it zoomed to screen width and crop material above and below your screen area.

This will be even more obviously ludicrous for TF2 when it's released on BD with variable AR. The 1.78 scenes in that film are HUGE in scale compared to the rest of the film, and zooming that to a 2.35 screen height- *smaller* than the rest of the film- would be laughable. Now, cropping may not be an option either, but we'll have to see how it's framed.
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post #113 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

I still don't understand why anyone thinks this feature is remotely useful for a movie like TDK.

If you have a 1.78 screen, you don't need to do anything.

If you have a 2.35 screen, you just need to mask top/bottom (blank or crop the image) to 2.35.

This feature only lets you auto-zoom the 1.78 scenes to screen height, making them *smaller* than the rest of the film- completely opposite what is intended.

This is assuming that the 4000 has a masking feature otherwise you have an image projecting off the top and bottom of the screen which no amount of masking can fully hide.
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post #114 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 08:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mike2060 View Post

This is assuming that the 4000 has a masking feature otherwise you have an image projecting off the top and bottom of the screen which no amount of masking can fully hide.

The new masking feature has been discussed in this thread. Regardless, any cheap VP can do this in conjunction with any projector you want to use for the zoom method CIH.
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post #115 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 10:36 AM
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Lol I was discussing it in this thread, and the only way we know about this is because we saw some masking parameters in a video yet no one in the press has mentioned it.
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post #116 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LilGator View Post

The new masking feature has been discussed in this thread. Regardless, any cheap VP can do this in conjunction with any projector you want to use for the zoom method CIH.

Heck, I think the new Oppo BD player does it as well...plus they throw in a great BD player with SACD & DVD-A!
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post #117 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 04:13 PM
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120hz discrete input with (wireless) shutter glasses is reasonably fatigue-free. It doesn't matter how you move your head or if you're lying back on your sofa, it still looks fine. You could actually watch a 2hr movie without getting a headache (although some people will be more prone to them than others.)

Other techniques, including 60hz with shutter glasses or any kind of polarized technique (shifts with rotation) causes much more viewer fatigue, IMHO. I think 240hz with shutter glasses will eliminate fatigue for 99% of the population.
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post #118 of 874 Old 09-09-2009, 08:26 PM
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Back to the "masking system" screen we've seen...

I'm now wondering if that isn't somwhow meant to work with the new triggers to control an external masking sytem in front of a fixed screen...in conjunction with changes to the AR using the zoom/memory fucntion...that'd be interesting, although useless for me, without a fixed screen...it's be nice if someone at CEDIA could get a clarification on this masking system, eh?

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post #119 of 874 Old 09-10-2009, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigCooper View Post

Unfortunately HDMI 1.3 can't carry 120Hz at 1920x1080. It will only go as high as 1680x1050.
I know because I am a big gamer who also uses Nvidias 3D Vision and there are no monitors capable of 1920x1080 at 120Hz. We need HDMI 1.4.

Short answer: No and yes and no and maybe. The HDMI 1.3 spec should support it, but almost all cables don't support it, and the HDMI 1.4 spec doesn't improve the situation at all with regards to cable bandwidth. However, we can sort of hope that as HDMI 1.4 spreads that manufacturers will make better cables that actually live up to HDMI 1.3.

Long answer:

Theoretically, HDMI 1.3 does have the bandwidth to support 120Hz at 1920x1080 at 24 bit color depth. HDMI 1.3 specifies 340 MHz signal support, which translates to 10.2 Gbit/s bandwidth for TMDS, of which 8.16 Gbit/s is for video. 120Hz * 1920*1080pixels * 24bits/pixel is 5.971968 Gbit/s. So it should support it; it should even support it in 30bit color, though not 36 or 48 bit deep color spaces.

Practically, almost no HDMI cable really lives up to HDMI 1.3 Category 2 specifications and will do that over runs of any real length. Plenty of cables listed as "HDMI 1.3" are only rated Category 1 (74.25 MHz), not Category 2 (the full 340 MHz). Others that are listed as Category 2 are really only tested over shorter lengths; for the cables actually sold, the manufacturer or vendor will likely do nothing more than test to see that 1080p/60Hz works over the cable run at best. Blue Jeans Cable admits that their best cable only passes full Category 2 testing up to 25 feet, though it will pass 1080p/60 at much longer runs; actually, they boast of this 25 feet, and claim that it beats any other cable on the market. Since this is a projector forum, cable length matters.

Importantly, having the HDMI 1.4 standard won't help, because it doesn't actually increase the video bandwidth carried over the cable. HDMI 1.4 does increase the maximum supported resolution, but if you look, it does so by adding support for higher resolutions at 24/25/30Hz. This is for digital theaters that are showing 24fps movies. Those higher resolutions at 24/25/30Hz don't use any more bandwidth than HDMI 1.3 Category 2 (High Speed HDMI) already supports.See the official HDMI FAQ, which notes that you'll need an HDMI 1.4 cable with the 100Mbit/s Fast Ethernet connection if you want the data transfer, but otherwise says that "[a]ll of the other new HDMI 1.4 features will be compatible with the existing categories of cables." That includes the new higher resolutions at lower Hz.

Remember that right now HDMI 1.3 is supposed to support the bandwidth you mention. If you're hoping that HDMI 1.4 means that people will actually start to make HDMI 1.3 Category 2 compliant cables, well, maybe that will happen if people try to actually use deep color and higher resolutions, etc. That's really your only hope, but it doesn't have anything to do with the HDMI spec version 1.4 itself.

It's difficult to sustain that kind of bandwidth over the twisted pair that HDMI uses. Twisted pair is not as suitable for long runs as coax or fiber. Yes, you can run Ethernet at 10Gbit/s over Cat 6 twisted pair cable for runs of up to a hundred meters, and that's a similar bandwidth to what we're asking for HDMI 1.3 Category 2 and HDMI 1.4. But Ethernet (and most protocols sent over Ethernet like TCP/IP) is designed to re-transmit if errors (or collisions) occur, and does so pretty seamlessly to the user. The worst that happens is that errors are converted into slower throughput for the user, which is annoying but better than losing data. With AV, you don't have the option to just resend the pixels if there's an error-- that error just gets displayed on the screen. So your margin for error is much lower. This is a problem of HDMI being designed to be backwards compatible with DVI, and it all goes back to having computer people instead of AV people design the spec, and also support for HDCP being so important.
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post #120 of 874 Old 09-10-2009, 12:44 AM
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John, Welcome to the forum. Thanks for taking the time to write such a clear answer to the question about HDMI 1.3 & 1.4. I am sure that there will be a lot of discussion about this in the future when the new 3D specs are announced before the end of the year.
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