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post #8641 of 8656 Old 08-07-2016, 11:42 AM
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Keep in mind that although you can get more life out of a bulb than what the timer dictates, especially in ECO mode and with the fan set to high altitude [loud], there's a danger of the bulb popping which can actually shatter glass, I've seen it, and if this happens it can potentially ruin your pj. [On some there is an extra protective glass in place to protect flying shards of glass from entering where they shouldn't, however this is not a bulletproof form of protection.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #8642 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 06:35 AM
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Hi to all,

I have a black smudge near the middle of my Panasonic's PT-AE4000 projected picture.

I know how to remove the typical very round, very defined dust blobs on the lcd panels by blowing a dust can on the lcd panels. Been doing it something like 5-6 times since I own the projector.

Unfortunately, this thing is not well defined, round or colored it looks black on the picture like a faint black smudge but you can see it when there is panning in a scene.

When I put a piece of white paper near the projector in the projection ray I can see that the thing looks like this:

. . .
. . .
. . .

The dots are green on a black projected picture and they are black on a green projected picture. You can see them on the attached pictures. Forget the vertical black lines on the green screen picture because they are just the bad reflection on the paper that I used I do not see that in the projected picture.

I have several of these things for years now but never bothered with them since I never saw them in the projected picture but now this one is visible.

Where in the projection path in the projector are these things located? I tried blowing a dust can on the green lcd panel and on the panel just behind it (filter?) a lot and nothing changed.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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post #8643 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 09:22 AM
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I've never seen that before however the pattern reminds me of how the SmoothScreen technology prismatic filter works: It takes each individual pixel and projects 4 [I think] faint ghost like images of it displaced slightly over the original, I think one each to the upper left, upper right, lower left, and lower right of the original forming a new grid like pattern. [Or is it one ghost image above, below, to the left, and one to the right of the first one? Not sure.]

Maybe your dust spec if on that stage of the optics? I don't know, just a thought.
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post #8644 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I've never seen that before however the pattern reminds me of how the SmoothScreen technology prismatic filter works: It takes each individual pixel and projects 4 [I think] faint ghost like images of it displaced slightly over the original, I think one each to the upper left, upper right, lower left, and lower right of the original forming a new grid like pattern. [Or is it one ghost image above, below, to the left, and one to the right of the first one? Not sure.]

Maybe your dust spec if on that stage of the optics? I don't know, just a thought.
Ok, where in the optic path is the smooth screen filter situated?

Here's a web page with pictures of the AE3000 which seems identical to mine internal-wise to help you tell me where it could be.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...AE3000test.htm

I can see there are contrast plates before the lcd panels and there are still other filters after the lcd panels as seen on the zoom in of the lcd panels assembly (the one where you see a panel from the side).

I didn't try to aim my dust can to blow on the inside filters, only on the contrast plates and on the lcd panel itself. Maybe that's where I need to blow?

Thanks!
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post #8645 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 10:10 AM
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Sorry, I don't know where.
---

Despite being one of the coolest features of the Panasonics, allowing one to project giant images yet still not see the raw LCD grid or experience the dreaded SDE ["screen door effect"] they are amazingly silent about the details of SmoothScreen and the few times I have seen them talk about it in ads the copy writers actually get it wrong in describing how it works!

Here is a simplistic description from that site cine4home

Google language translation:

"15. Screen Door / Screen Effect

The screen door effect concerns nowadays predominantly only digital projectors LCD genus.
It describes the unwanted, black distance between the individual image pixels. If you sit too close to the screen, or has good eyes, affects the entire image as if behind a "screen door". At the same time the maximum brightness and the contrast by the dark strips is impaired. Thus, the smaller the distance between the pixels, the better the result. is measured, the proportion of the distances by the so-called "fill rate". It describes the area ratio of the actual pixels in the total image. A fill rate of 70% for example means that only 70% of the image pixels are illuminated, while 30% of black lines "covered" is.
D-ILA projectors achieve a fill factor of 93%, DLP projectors and 88% conventional LCD projectors only 60%, since the conductor tracks are in the light path.



Newer LCD models have special blur functions to increase the fill rate and reduce the screen door effect. An example is the PT-AE300 with Screen Smooth function.
In PlasmaTVs the problem of fly screen does not appear. As with normal televisions, the picture is here too small in relation to the viewing distance in order to make individual pixels, "visible"."

Source: http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/Proj...iterien.htm#15

What they refer to, at least as translated by Google, as "fill rate" is actually called "fill factor" in English.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 09-12-2016 at 10:22 AM.
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post #8646 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Sorry, I don't know where.
---

Despite being one of the coolest features of the Panasonics, allowing one to project giant images yet still not see the raw LCD grid or experience the dreaded SDE ["screen door effect"] they are amazingly silent about the details of SmoothScreen and the few times I have seen them talk about it in ads the copy writers actually get it wrong in describing how it works!

Here is a simplistic description from that site cine4home

Google language translation:

"15. Screen Door / Screen Effect

The screen door effect concerns nowadays predominantly only digital projectors LCD genus.
It describes the unwanted, black distance between the individual image pixels. If you sit too close to the screen, or has good eyes, affects the entire image as if behind a "screen door". At the same time the maximum brightness and the contrast by the dark strips is impaired. Thus, the smaller the distance between the pixels, the better the result. is measured, the proportion of the distances by the so-called "fill rate". It describes the area ratio of the actual pixels in the total image. A fill rate of 70% for example means that only 70% of the image pixels are illuminated, while 30% of black lines "covered" is.
D-ILA projectors achieve a fill factor of 93%, DLP projectors and 88% conventional LCD projectors only 60%, since the conductor tracks are in the light path.



Newer LCD models have special blur functions to increase the fill rate and reduce the screen door effect. An example is the PT-AE300 with Screen Smooth function.
In PlasmaTVs the problem of fly screen does not appear. As with normal televisions, the picture is here too small in relation to the viewing distance in order to make individual pixels, "visible"."

Source: http://www.cine4home.de/knowhow/Proj...iterien.htm#15

What they refer to, at least as translated by Google, as "fill rate" is actually called "fill factor" in English.
Ok

Do you know if it could be the lcd panel being damaged/burned? I just don't understand why I see the dots as green on a black background and as black on a green/bright background.

Any ideas?
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post #8647 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 02:12 PM
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Well I don't understand why when you shine a red flashlight with a green flashlight and a blue flashlight you get white, whereas when you mix three similar colors of paint you get black. Makes no sense to me; I just go with it .

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post #8648 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 02:20 PM
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I'm too afraid to apply compressed air to my dust blob (also green on black if I recall. It is so faint I don't see it with most material) because I'm terrified, even understanding how to avoid accidentally squirting liquid that I will, causing permanent damage (or at least damage I can't address or afford to repair), however since that train has already left the station for you, why not just blast every conceivable surface you can to see if it fixes the issue?
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post #8649 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I'm too afraid to apply compressed air to my dust blob (also green on black if I recall. It is so faint I don't see it with most material) because I'm terrified, even understanding how to avoid accidentally squirting liquid that I will, causing permanent damage (or at least damage I can't address or afford to repair), however since that train has already left the station for you, why not just blast every conceivable surface you can to see if it fixes the issue?
Yes ill probably try again later... the thing is the surfaces I have access to are limited without removing the circuit board and I don't want to go there. I am afraid I'll break something or mess up the alignment of something.

If you put the projector on the side (AE4000 at least) and keep the can upright and test it out on your hand often before spraying there's no real danger. Also don't shake the can ever.
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post #8650 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 03:29 PM
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Yeah, I know how in theory one holds the can, testing it first with a test blast and holding it upright at all times, etc. but have you ever talked to a person and a small piece of spit flies out of your mouth? It can happen.

I wish you luck. There's a 99% chance nothing will go wrong, I'm just being overly cautious and since I can't even see my dust blob unless I really hunt it down [and I need a perfectly black screen to do it] I'm not at the point where I have to make this decision.
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post #8651 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 03:51 PM
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Yes ill probably try again later... the thing is the surfaces I have access to are limited without removing the circuit board and I don't want to go there. I am afraid I'll break something or mess up the alignment of something.

If you put the projector on the side (AE4000 at least) and keep the can upright and test it out on your hand often before spraying there's no real danger. Also don't shake the can ever.
Does the defect change at all when using the more accurate but dimmer viewing modes with the Cinema filter engaged (REC 709, Digital Cinema, etc.) as compared to using Dynamic or Normal?
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post #8652 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 04:30 PM
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Actually the 4000 doesn't have "REC 709" or "digital cinema" but it does indeed have the color filter and it is moved into position for "Cinema 1" (and several others) and out of the way for "Normal" and "Dynamic". I agree this would be good to test: it would determine if the problem is with that part.

Also I'd test to see if it seems at all related to the lens assembly by moving it up/ down/ left/ right with the rotary wheels on the pj's top panel. This might help determine if the dust is forward of the optical block and more in the lens assembly section by seeing if the exact on-screen position of the anomaly stays constant or wavers with the optical skewing.

[And zoom/focus too. If you see the anomaly rotate around on screen as you change focus that tells you it is on the lens!]

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 09-12-2016 at 04:36 PM.
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post #8653 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by deano86 View Post
Does the defect change at all when using the more accurate but dimmer viewing modes with the Cinema filter engaged (REC 709, Digital Cinema, etc.) as compared to using Dynamic or Normal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Actually the 4000 doesn't have "REC 709" or "digital cinema" but it does indeed have the color filter and it is moved into position for "Cinema 1" (and several others) and out of the way for "Normal" and "Dynamic". I agree this would be good to test: it would determine if the problem is with that part.

Also I'd test to see if it seems at all related to the lens assembly by moving it up/ down/ left/ right with the rotary wheels on the pj's top panel. This might help determine if the dust is forward of the optical block and more in the lens assembly section by seeing if the exact on-screen position of the anomaly stays constant or wavers with the optical skewing.

[And zoom/focus too. If you see the anomaly rotate around on screen as you change focus that tells you it is on the lens!]
Great tips guys! I'll try these things out and tell you the results.

I also finally know why I hear the ZZZZZzz when I switch modes from cinema to normal. It seems from your description that a plate is positioned by a motor. By the way I always use NORMAL and yesterday is the first time I switched modes in years. I never liked the other modes compared to normal. I think you said the plate is NOT in the light path when in normal mode so I guess this rules out that plate as being the culprit?

EDIT: Ok I did the tests and here's the results:

- The cinema1 mode where the buzzing sound occurs and the picture dims does not change the appearance of the smudge except to make them way dimmer probably because of the lower brightness? They are way dimmer but still there at the same place.

- Moving the picture up and down with the wheel made the smudge move up and down also and they stayed exactly at the same position inside the projected rectangle.

- Zooming in and out (did a lot of zooming) did not change the position of the smudge at all in the projected rectangle.

I checked the smudge using the white paper near the projector again because it is not as easy to see it in the projected picture but it is viewable or else I would not do all this.

Last edited by Creator44; 09-12-2016 at 07:35 PM.
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post #8654 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 07:59 PM
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So it would seem to be in the optical block as originally suspected, and not the lens nor the color filter. Oh well, at least you ruled out two areas.

I guess another area you could easily inspect by eye is the lamp housing, since the whole thing pulls out for replacement. I believe in front of the actual raw bulb there is a glass window and this acts as an explosion shield. Sometimes bulbs explode, especially when people override the replacement warning timers and trick their projectors into thinking a new one has been installed so instead of 2-3000 hours they push it to double that [albeit at dim output levels]. The shield attempts to keep broken glass from getting into the works when she blows.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #8655 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 10:20 PM
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So it would seem to be in the optical block as originally suspected, and not the lens nor the color filter. Oh well, at least you ruled out two areas.

I guess another area you could easily inspect by eye is the lamp housing, since the whole thing pulls out for replacement. I believe in front of the actual raw bulb there is a glass window and this acts as an explosion shield. Sometimes bulbs explode, especially when people override the replacement warning timers and trick their projectors into thinking a new one has been installed so instead of 2-3000 hours they push it to double that [albeit at dim output levels]. The shield attempts to keep broken glass from getting into the works when she blows.
Ok, so it is in the lcd panels area then when you say optical block?

I thought about that bulb housing as I saw that glass window that looks weird with the big squares in the glass. I think it's also made like that to disperse the light more as it goes through it.

The thing is, I didn't see any dust on that glass so I doubt that's where these things are.

Also, since the things are green dots and also since on a complete RED image I can see some of these dotted things elsewhere in the picture and not at the same places as the green ones, it seems more to me as they are specific to red, green or blue panels in the paths (blue doesn't seem to have any but it's harder to see these things in blue) and that bulb place is shared by all three lcd panels since it's the beginning of the source path.

I only see one of these things in the projected picture and it's green dots on the piece of paper on a black image or they are black dots on a green image.
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post #8656 of 8656 Old 09-12-2016, 11:48 PM
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Yes the optical block is sort of everything after the lamp and before the lens and variable iris. I'm not sure if technically it includes the retractable color filter or not, probably not.

There are three LCD panels, r, g, and b, prisms, Smoothscreen somewhere (don't know where) and things called polarizers. Dirt on any of these is I think the problem but I'm not an expert on this topic.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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