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post #451 of 476 Old 10-13-2011, 10:52 AM
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Greetings All

I have been doing some failure annalist on my LG HS201 that has died after about 6,000 hours of operation in normal mode. In my previous posts (pictures/short video) the Green LED is not working (connector burnt), the Red LED is flashing and the Blue LED seems to be OK.

Not Knowing exactly where to start I started with the LEDs, I was surprised by some of the things I found. This is going to be a Book, but I want to keep this a paperback so rather than explaining each technology in this post I will give you a link that will explain the technology. I also don’t want to make this too geeky so hopefully between the pictures and my efforts at explaining most will be able to follow, so let’s get started.

Here is the Luminus LED (1 of the 3) used in the projector http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Here is a low magnification picture of the actual LED chip (one of the corners) behind the glass http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

In the next series of high magnification pictures I will point out and explain the defects in these LEDs, REMINDER I bought this projector in 12/09, that means these LEDs were made/assembled prior to that time, these problems I point out today may no longer exist in today’s product.

First image is of the Blue LED, take note of the perfect circle in the lower left of the image http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Next image is of the Blue LED also notice the contaminate at the bottom http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

In the coming chat about what these problems are I’ll be referring to the 2 images above to try to explain what the problems are, the following images are to show the Green as well as the Red LEDs have the same problems.

The green LED, NOTE a dark spot in the center of each circle (will be part of the explanation) http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Green LED at the edge where some contamination remains (black strings) http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Red LED with same defects http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Red LED with large defect http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Now for the explanation, let me start by saying I’ve worked in the semiconductor industry for the last 32 years, in those years I’ve personally been responsible for resolving these types of manufacturing defects.

Let me start by listing what I DO NOT KNOW, I don not know if this film is an Oxide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxide (SIO2), A Nitride film http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitride (Si3N4) or an exotic optical coating for blocking cretin wave lengths of light.

I DO NOT KNOW if this film is for Passivation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passivation , if it is used as a “Scratch Coating” (this is a film deposited to protect the device surface during assembly) or and optical coating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_coating

I DO NOT KNOW what method was used to deposit this film, CVD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_vapor_deposition , LPCVD (Same link talks about LPCVD too) or PECVD (Again same link talks about PECVD)

This is what I DO KNOW, if this film wasn’t needed it would not be on the chip.

I do know the wafers were contaminated with an organic particle (room dirt, dirty dryer, poor handling, etc) prior to the film deposition, this is not a guess this is a fact and I will try my best to explain this.

The film in the first blue picture has a gray tone to it except in the lower left corner where you see a perfect circle (same circles you see in the other photos), in that circle you see white for a color. The gray is the deposited film and the white is where the film did not deposit (Guess, the white is bare silicon).
The dark spots in the center of all the circles are the dehydrated/burnt/carbonized remnant of that particle after it went through the?? CVD process, this is what happened.

During the deposition of the gray film, very pure gases are used (for Nitride, SIH4 @ 99.999% pure and HN3 @ 99.9% pure), that very pure gas combination comes into contact with the gasses escaping from that organic particle (that can be ANY gas, O2, N2, water vapor, etc) and makes a different compound (Not an Oxide, Nitride or optical coating) that doesn’t stick/gets deposited on the surface where this gas is. The reason why it is a circle is because the emissions of gas is Omnidirectional http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnidirectional from the particle meaning the gas extends the same distance around the particle in all dimensions (left/right, up/down).

The particle shrivels up to those tiny (sometimes larger) spots exactly in the center of the circle, BUT does it affect device performance, that was my next experiment. I removed the R/G/B LED from the projector and set up a test bench.

I used this power supply http://www.madelltech.com/TPR3000.pdf

with a TEC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

In this picture you can see the basic set up http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream the 12 volts on the right is for the fan on the TEC, the fixed 5 volts was for the TEC (tri output supply) cooling it down to 1.6 deg C and the supply on the left was for the LEDs

Red LED at idle http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Green @ idle http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Blue @ idle http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Red @ 4 Amps http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Green @ 4 amps http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

Blue @ 4 Amps http://www.flickr.com/photos/4530762...in/photostream

So what do I know @ this stage Absolutely NOTHING, I found and identified the manufacturing defects in the LEDs, but SO WHAT it isn’t the problem.

So I now come back to the burnt connector, I go to Luminus website to copy the PDF only to find out they removed them, I had to call and request a copy (and I did). I wanted this info so I could make this accurate

According to their spec sheet The LED that has to be driven the hardest to reach 200 lumens is the blue LED, it requires about 6 amps where the red is 4.1 amps and the green is less than 2, so now I’m really confused as to why the LED that draws the least current was the one to cook?????? Resulting in this http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...7&d=1316283643

One thing I have noticed is the LED side of the same connector had a slight browning around the same pin #s (6-7-8 the MOSFET + switching side).

So I am still in the same spot I was, except I have verified the LEDs still work fine. My next step is to put the projector back together (solder all connectors) and scope out the MOSFETS that drive the LEDs, the PDF is here http://www.datasheets.org.uk/KMB054N...datasheet.html (2nd PDF in the list).

I plan on sending a uniform RGB bar to the projector and scope out the MOSFETS (I would expect to see the same pulse duration (not magnitude)) if I detect a problem that is before these MOSFETS then it goes into the trash (I would be getting into OEM coded chips and I draw the line of effort there).

Sorry for saying so little in such a large post

AFM
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post #452 of 476 Old 10-13-2011, 11:15 AM
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The forum name finally makes some sense. I am not competent enough to comment afineman, but its an interesting post
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post #453 of 476 Old 10-13-2011, 12:06 PM
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You don't want all leds outputting the same lumens. The leds are driven so that the spectrum resembles black body radiation at ~6000k (see wiki).
That explains why the green led is driven harder and burns out quicker than the others.

It takes a big man to admit he's wrong... I'm NOT a big man! (Fletch)
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post #454 of 476 Old 10-13-2011, 12:20 PM
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Nice post! It is suprising to see those contaminants in the Luminous LED chips, in this day and age of fabs and clean rooms. It's good to see that the LED by itself is still functional.
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post #455 of 476 Old 03-04-2012, 08:04 AM
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Greetings All

I finally did the last test (RGB test bars test while using a digital storage scope) the MOSFETs work fine, this means the problem is with the signal that turns the MOSFET on/off (gate firing). Not having a schematic nor the OEM code It is beyond/no time for me to research this problem any further.

I still hate the idea of throwing this out (the pack rat in me) seeing I've already verified the LEDs, so I'll hang on to it for a while.

In time other 201s will fail and before you (non pack ratters) throw it away PM me, I'm willing to pay shipping from you to me. I'm still curious what this failure is and don't mind spending a couple bucks in shipping to satisfy my curiosity.

Have a nice day

AFM
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post #456 of 476 Old 09-15-2012, 06:18 AM
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Hey afineman,

yesterday, my HS200 finished working and thats why I found your interesting posts here in the forum.
My projector works normal but not even one of the LEDs is working. So I checked mosfets etc. and found (no measurable resistance) a coil L902, which had "unsoldered itself" maybe due to high temperatures. It is part of the source for RGB-LED-Power from V_DC to V_LED. After resoldering it and creating a small heat sink, everythinmg worked fine.
By the way, for increasing of fun and lifetime with my HS200, I put some bigger heat sinks to the leds and some ICs and created a new case with bigger and quiter fans.
Next idea will be a change of the leds and a new Power source for more brightness...

Maybe the idea with the coil helps you but your last post seems to be few months ago so I wish you all the best with this fantastic small beamer.

Stefan.
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post #457 of 476 Old 09-15-2012, 07:38 AM
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Stefan

I finally repaired my HS 201 back in May, I didn't update because there appeared to be no interest.

In the end, not only was the connector bad for the Green LED but there was a problem on the Blue as well.

After I repaired both connectors the projector would only stay on for 30 seconds then cut out, that was caused by an bad RTD (measures temperature of LED), I'm unsure, I may have caused that failure.

I got motivated to really dig in and find the problem because I built a screened in room this spring and wanted some entertainment out there. a lap top was too small and because it was exposed to the elements I didn't want to buy a new larger display, so I fixed the LG.

It is still working as I type, it is used 5-8 hours per week (after it gets dark, with a few beers and a cigar) watching stuff and some surfing. I built a 4 ft by 3 ft cloth screen that was painted with a flat white exterior paint and mounted (hanging) under an eve of the house.

I currently use a Opt. ML 500 as my main projector but the color of the LG is still better and works great (after dusk) in this room. It will be getting cold soon so I will be removing the electronics from this room as well as the roof (I didn't build it to carry a load, it snows here). My planned future use of the LG is to use it as a rear projection for my front picture window (plastic on the window with the various coming holiday theme being projected on it).

So to conclude, "It's Alive" and is still serving me well as well as still impressing me with it's popping color. I'm in excess of 7k hours of use on this and would recommend to anyone using this projector to check these connectors. They appear to be the weak link in the quest for tens of thousands of hours of use.


smile.gif
AFM
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post #458 of 476 Old 10-24-2012, 05:40 PM
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Hi, I was trying to see If this was a good buy, I can get them on clearance from my Epson rep for a hair over 200.00. I have the hx350t and I love it. Just thought of having a backup...
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post #459 of 476 Old 12-20-2012, 01:41 PM
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Hi afineman,

My HS201 just bit the dust last night; first it started flickering, with the image taking on a yellowish hue, and then it appeared bluish. In a few moments the image degraded to a dull flickering red. I've tried changing image and power sources, but the problem remains: only the red LED seems to be working. Having read your posts, it appears that I may have a similar problem to yours. I was wondering how you eventually managed to repair your unit. Was the repair something that could be attempted by a motivated, patient novice with good research skills? Thanks in advance for your reply!
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post #460 of 476 Old 12-20-2012, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samuraibob View Post

Hi afineman,
My HS201 just bit the dust last night; first it started flickering, with the image taking on a yellowish hue, and then it appeared bluish. In a few moments the image degraded to a dull flickering red. I've tried changing image and power sources, but the problem remains: only the red LED seems to be working. Having read your posts, it appears that I may have a similar problem to yours. I was wondering how you eventually managed to repair your unit. Was the repair something that could be attempted by a motivated, patient novice with good research skills? Thanks in advance for your reply!


Just curious, how many hours do you estimate you were able to get out of the unit before it died? Anywhere near the claimed 20,000?
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post #461 of 476 Old 12-21-2012, 11:51 AM
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samuraibob

Yes it appears to be the same sort of failure.

Take it apart (many examples of how to in this thread), disconnect the LED connectors and look for where it is burned.

Take some pictures (if burned of the male and female connector), post them and I'll help/talk you through what I did.

AFM
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post #462 of 476 Old 12-21-2012, 01:24 PM
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Afineman: Fantastic! Thanks a million; I'll be back in touch soon.

AmberAle: It wasn't anywhere near the 20 000 hour mark, but I did get a very solid 2 and a half years out of it (4-6 hours, many days of the week). I suspect that the problem occurred due to overheating; when I opened the case last night, the inside of the fan and the heat sink were completely clogged with dust. Clearly, my occasional vacuuming of the fan (from the outside) wasn't sufficient. If I'm able to fix this unit, I'll certainly be giving it an internal dusting every six months.
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post #463 of 476 Old 12-21-2012, 02:26 PM
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Hi Brent,

It looks like my problem is identical to yours; several burnt connectors on what I believe is the green LED. I haven't found any other telltale signs of failure--no burst capacitors or scorching--so I'm hoping this is the full extent of my problem. If you could advise me how to proceed, I'd be most grateful! Thanks again!


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post #464 of 476 Old 12-21-2012, 02:44 PM
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A correction: there appears to be some slight discoloration on a couple of the female pins in the connector adjacent to the green LED. Is this cause for concern? Thanks again!


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post #465 of 476 Old 12-21-2012, 06:46 PM
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samuraibob

Your failure appears to be identical to my past failure.

I am an electronics geek (having done the repair, it is simple for me), not knowing your back ground I will speak as though you have no experience (please don't be insulted)

First: you will need a proper soldering iron, this is the iron I used http://www.newark.com/weller/pes51/soldering-pencil/dp/94C1544?in_merch=Popular Soldering Irons&in_merch=Popular Products&MER=PPSO_N_P_EverywhereElse_None I am in NO WAY saying this is the ONLY tool you can use, this is the one I used.

As for solder, because of my time in this industry, I have solder that can no longer be bought (high lead/flux content) an OK replacement may be this http://www.newark.com/kester-solder/24-6337-8800/solder-wire-63-37-sn-pb-183-c-1lb/dp/00Z1122?in_merch=Popular Products again, this is NOT the only one that can be used.

A wire cutting tool like this http://www.newark.com/xcelite/175d/tools-wire-cutting-shears/dp/52F5705 will do the job (again, as before, others will work)

Now comes the "art" part, the cutting and soldering part, I would much rather speak with you before you embark on this part of the quest. So when you have (what you feel are the needed tools) things in place, PM me and we will set up a Skype call.

I feel with picture in front of us (the failed connectors) I may be able to properly explain the cutting/clipping steps I went through to make this work again. I again have to say, my way worked for me, I am not saying my approach to this repair is the ONLY/BEST way.

The repair (in the end) was cutting off the female end of the connector, stripping back the wires, cleaning the male pins and soldering the wires directly to the cleaned male pins.



AFM
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post #466 of 476 Old 12-22-2012, 09:27 AM
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Brent,

Thank you so much for your very helpful and detailed response! And I certainly am not insulted in any way! The only wire I've ever cut is speaker wire, and the only thing I've ever soldered is copper pipe for plumbing. I really appreciate your advice, and I shall purchase the necessary equipment as soon as I can. I am, however, about to disappear to my family's place for several days (where the internet is slow and spotty at best), so if it's alright with you, I think the repair will have to wait until a few days after Christmas. Thanks again for all your help, and happy holidays! I'll be in touch shortly.
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post #467 of 476 Old 12-22-2012, 01:19 PM
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samuraibob

Are you in the USA, if so I would be willing to loan you the tools needed (cutter, solder and pencil point soldering iron). it doesn't make sense to buy for just 1 job (you just pay the couple bucks shipping back and forth).


Knowing what tools you have in hand will (hopefully) make it easier for me to explain the procedure. PM me your address(in the US) and I sent these tools out, once you get them we'll make arrangements to chat.

When it comes time to start this repair I would like to put all the back and forth chatting info here, because your failure is identical to what mine was I suppect others will (or already have) have the same failure .


let me know

AFM
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post #468 of 476 Old 12-22-2012, 01:56 PM
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Thank you for the info guys!

My hs201 is still working after all these years. I got mine when it first came available on amazon and have been using it atleast 6hrs a day. I don't want to open the pj yet just to check or clean the insides. I have some experience (modding my ps2) lol does that help? Anyway if you guys made anymore improvements let us know we are checking this thread. Thanks again to all and Merry Xmas!
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post #469 of 476 Old 12-27-2012, 01:39 PM
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So, I'm new the forum, but I just wanted to say thanks for the info.
I am so happy I found this, as my parents HS201 just died as well this past month, (only displaying a red image,) which is very disappointing considering the life has only been 2.5 years.
I opened it up, and found the same issue you all seem to be finding, with the green LED connector being burnt out.
I just wish I could find the 8-pin connector somewhere, it would make everything so much easier. Have any of you had any luck?
I tried contacting LG, and they said they do not sell parts for this, outside of their service and repair.
(And to send it in, the rep. told me would cost an est. $179.00... much too high for me.)
My parents already got a replacement, the PA70G, (which is a nice upgrade,) but I'm just trying to get the projector working again for myself.
So, I'll probably just have to do the soldering method as well... Thanks again!
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post #470 of 476 Old 12-28-2012, 02:49 PM
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ahar0


Welcome to the club (to bad it is for a similar problem), changing the connector (the one with the wires) won't be a good fix, both the male and female would have to be changed.The male pins in the connector soldered to the main board are Burnt/Pitted/Oxidized and with out replacing these too, another connector would fail in a VERY short time.

The connector used was selected by Luminus, this is the connector used on the individual LED, LG just used the same connector on their main board. if you really want to change the connectors including the male connector contact Luminus you should be able to get it from them (I don't know how happy they will be, but they should have them).


After the holidays are over I'll be helping samuraibob with his repair, maybe he can take pictures as he goes through the steps, that way this repair is posted in some detail so it may help others.


AFM
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post #471 of 476 Old 12-29-2012, 08:44 AM
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Brent,

Thank you so much for your incredibly generous offer! The fact that you'd be willing to loan your tools is remarkable and truly becoming of both the holiday spirit and your screen name! I am, alas, based in Canada, so I can't take you up on it. Also, at this point, it looks like I won't be needing the tools. I saw some family friends the other night at a holiday party (an electrical and a mechanical engineer with two Masters degrees between them) and showed them the pictures of the burnt connectors. They agreed with your assessment of the necessary repair, but neither of them thought they'd be able to perform the cut-and-solder themselves (just too ticklish and slightly beyond their confidence levels). Since I have trouble threading needles, I decided that I'd probably do best to find an electronics repair technician in the neighbourhood. A visit to the local electronics surplus store (Active Surplus--which I highly recommend to anyone reading in the Toronto area) yielded one name (AMI Electronics). The company owner came right to my doorstep within hours of my call, collected the unit and said it should be done sometime this afternoon. Furthermore, he's guaranteed service on the projector for a year (6 months for labour). I'll be sure to report back with the results. At any rate, Brent, I would like to say, once again, thanks a million for all your support; without your advice and postings about your experience with your LG I probably would have given up on the unit, and it would have been a dark winter indeed. I'm sorry that I won't be able to share a repair log with the forum, but it's quite probable that it would be the record of an epic fail on a miniature scale. Thanks again, and happy new year!
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post #472 of 476 Old 01-02-2013, 01:42 PM
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OK--my repair guy fixed the problem. As was the case with afineman's unit, several pins were burned on the green LED connector. There was nothing wrong with any of the other connectors or the LEDs themselves. The repair was accomplished by cutting away the burnt plastic casing on both male and female ends. The pins were cleaned and the wires were soldered directly to the board. However, the repair was only made on the four burnt pins, so I may end up experiencing the same problem again. The repairman suggested that I cut a hole in the casing (beneath the LED connectors) and install a small exhaust fan, but the hypothetical fan's proximity to the intake fan makes me I suspect that such a modification wouldn't be terribly effective. That being said, the projector is running considerably cooler and quieter now that I've cleaned out the dust in the area between the fan and the heatsink. Weeks before the PJ failed, the fan would power up noisily within a minute of being turned on, even in eco mode. Now I can run it at normal light output and the fan will only kick into high gear briefly after a couple of hours of use. Moral of the story: keep the unit well-ventilated and dust-free! Thanks again to afineman for all his help!
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post #473 of 476 Old 01-02-2013, 03:47 PM
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samuraibob

Glad to hear all went well, and it is again working.

That repair is exactly what I was going to try to guide you through, glad it all worked out in the end.

I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunity (in the future) to capture the DIY repair of this problem.

Your suggestion is a good one, keep it dust free and I might add, check these connectors.

Best of Luck

AFM
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post #474 of 476 Old 09-02-2013, 04:23 PM
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Having a problem with my hs201. Projector is displaying black spots. This is the 2nd time this has happened. Sent it back to lg the 1st time under warranty. The warranty has expired. Any thoughts?
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post #475 of 476 Old 09-03-2013, 06:56 AM
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I wish I could bump this thread for infinity. I was shunned for implying these portable projectors would last as long as the LEDs inside them.

It was a safe bet. Modern tiny electronics aren't all that great these days.
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post #476 of 476 Old 01-24-2014, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afineman View Post

Stefan

I finally repaired my HS 201 back in May, I didn't update because there appeared to be no interest.

In the end, not only was the connector bad for the Green LED but there was a problem on the Blue as well.

After I repaired both connectors the projector would only stay on for 30 seconds then cut out, that was caused by an bad RTD (measures temperature of LED), I'm unsure, I may have caused that failure.

I got motivated to really dig in and find the problem because I built a screened in room this spring and wanted some entertainment out there. a lap top was too small and because it was exposed to the elements I didn't want to buy a new larger display, so I fixed the LG.

It is still working as I type, it is used 5-8 hours per week (after it gets dark, with a few beers and a cigar) watching stuff and some surfing. I built a 4 ft by 3 ft cloth screen that was painted with a flat white exterior paint and mounted (hanging) under an eve of the house.

I currently use a Opt. ML 500 as my main projector but the color of the LG is still better and works great (after dusk) in this room. It will be getting cold soon so I will be removing the electronics from this room as well as the roof (I didn't build it to carry a load, it snows here). My planned future use of the LG is to use it as a rear projection for my front picture window (plastic on the window with the various coming holiday theme being projected on it).

So to conclude, "It's Alive" and is still serving me well as well as still impressing me with it's popping color. I'm in excess of 7k hours of use on this and would recommend to anyone using this projector to check these connectors. They appear to be the weak link in the quest for tens of thousands of hours of use.


smile.gif
AFM

I had the same failure on my LG HS201 and thanks to you, I was able to get it repaired for a fraction compared to what LG was asking (80$) to just within $8, thanks a lot man smile.gif
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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Lg Hs200 Portable Projector
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