LG CF181D, New SXRD-projector from LG - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 09:24 AM
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I am fasting wating for your image of clear text (sorry). Please get it up before I die from hunger.

Ok, just kidding but am curious about it.


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post #92 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

I am fasting wating for your image of clear text (sorry).

Variations are so different between units (even on the same model) I don't see any value of the images unless you are interesting in purchasing his unit.
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post #93 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 02:35 PM
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OK guys...sorry for the delay, but I've been competing with the kids for projector time!

These are 2 shots of PS3 menu text from VERY close.

I used a Canon SD870IS, set to macro, flash OFF, and 2 second delayed shot on a tripod.

SHOT #1:
The camera lens was from 12-14 inches from the actual screen, which is why you see the silouhette of the camera in the shot. It's so close, you will see the pixel structure. On my 124" screen, at 1920x1080, each pixel is just under .057 square inches.

SHOT #2:
The camera lens was probably between 2 & 3 feet from the screen. You may be able to make out pixel structure if you look closely....(as well as my bog head! ...sorry!)

If you's like to see a high res shot, I can take a few at 8MP resolution and upload somewhere else or email to you, because I don't think we can upload that large of a file size here.

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post #94 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 02:49 PM
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I'm really interested to hear everyone's "take" on these text pictures. The alignment is not perfect, but how would you rate it based on others you've seen. I know that from any reasonable distance, even distances that are closer than I would ever care to watch anything at, the picture looks absolutely crystal-clear!

I've spoken with some of the guys at Projector People that say some people complain that their projector's pixels are out of alignment, return them, and when they are checked out...they find them more than acceptable.

If only there was a was to tweak this convergence if necessary.

What do you guys think?
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post #95 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post


I've spoken with some of the guys at Projector People that say some people complain that their projector's pixels are out of alignment, return them, and when they are checked out...they find them more than acceptable.


Someone selling a product is always going to see defects as more "acceptable" than the person purchasing the product.

I agree completely that it would help if other manufacturers of 3 panel equipment (be it dlp, lcos, or lcd) would follow Sony's lead and include some type of method to adjust the alignment if needed.

Personally I would probably "complain" with anything more than about 1/4 pixel mis-alignment..... but then I can afford to be pickey as I have never owned anything except single-chip dlp which does not suffer from this particular issue. (it has different issues to deal with)

Personally I thought the text looked pretty darn good.

Can you put up a grid of white on black? That will show the mis-alignment if there is any.

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post #96 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 04:24 PM
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I only see antialiasing on that shot. Convergence looks perfect to me.
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post #97 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 06:38 PM
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I have attached a couple pics from the DVD "Sahara". The 1st is with the lights out. The 2nd is with moderate ambient lighting from fixtures at the top left & right corners of the screen. This has letterboxing on the top & bottom and I do not use masking.

I have no complaints about standard DVD on the CF181D, at least when upconverted from the PS3. Black levels look the same as blu-ray to me.

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post #98 of 1266 Old 02-15-2010, 07:16 PM
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The convergence is definitely better than on any of the LCoS Canon Realis projectors I've had (about 4 at this point).

I'd be quite happy with the performance you're seeing.
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post #99 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Variations are so different between units (even on the same model) I don't see any value of the images unless you are interesting in purchasing his unit.

Right, we know the variations can be somewhat different to extremely different for CA and other factors in sharpness and convergence on a per-unit basis, but I can get a general idea if I see a huge chromatic abberation around his text. However, we do not know the LG's QC on this regard as some projectors (even LCD and LCOS) have much fewer variations than others.
So we may know the potential capabilities of an LG as a "good unit" if we see a good image (which we do). If I see a bad image, then we know to inquire to him and let him know he might have some CA or convergence issues. I see a nice clean image, and that is a good thing.

Also, since he took a picture close enough of the the pixel structure, we can also get a general idea that it is at least somewhat sharp and not faulty in this area. Obviously images cannot really tell the entire story, but to me the images he tooks shows fairly clear text at the pixel level (hard to see CA in an image though), but he is also reporting it is sharp and was just making sure I didn't see something funny.

It looks like this might beat the JVC RSx and the Sony LCOS for sharpness, this projector is becoming more and more tempting.


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post #100 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 03:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

I'm really interested to hear everyone's "take" on these text pictures.

DONT TAKE THIS CONCLUSION TOO SERIOUSLY, AS IT MIGHT MEAN NEXT TO NOTHING... We are looking at an image after all.

It is sharp enough to where the level of sharpness is beyond what the image can tell us, meaning it is actually better than I expected from an LCOS projector. On almost every other LCOS projector, I can easily see an inherent softness in a closeup of text.

As another poster said, throw up a cross-hatch pattern and check that the black lines are all the same width across and do not have any fringing around them or color distortion. You will have to LOOK really CLOSELY on the pattern to see it if you are within 1 pixel. Judging by that image (and I could be wrong), your convergence appears to be less than 1/2 pixel off since that is about as far down as I can see from that image (maybe at best). You can get cross hatch patterns online and run them on your PS3, or maybe in the PJ menu itself (no idea here). Also focusing a PJ is difficult at this fine level of detail, so make sure you got the focus perfect before writing it off as the "sharpness not being perfect enough".

I can tell you that is far better than most of the Epson 8500ub's that I have seen closeups of as well. It looks even slightly sharper than my older Sanyo Z5 LCD (which was pretty sharp in its day). Not to discount that this is only a picture of an image and we might not be seeing exactly what we should be.

I'm not going to say it can match the sharpness of the Mitsubishi hc3800 DLP or Benq w6000 (which are the 2 of the sharpest PJ's under 5K right now and are DLP and not prone to convergence or CA issues), but I am also not going to say that it isn't close, because it appears pretty dang sharp and we cannot tell that level of detail from only an image!

Keep in mind that the PS3 processing could also be affecting it, look at the menu text on the projector as well...


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post #101 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 04:54 AM
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On an entirely different note, has anyone noticed/found any other vendors carrying this projector? I keep hoping to see it show up on Amazon. I love their return policy.
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post #102 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

It looks like this might beat the JVC RSx and the Sony LCOS for sharpness, this projector is becoming more and more tempting.

I think this is a rather silly conclusion. Again the variations between units make it impossible to judge on a model basis. Here are some images of a HW15 which appears to me to be sharper even without using the built-in convergence utility. I could have used the utility to make the menu look next to perfect perhaps reducing the convergence in other areas... Now another HW15 sample I had wasn't even in the same ballpark as these images. So is the HW15 the best or worse? It's both based on the individual sample.







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post #103 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 04:45 PM
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Anyone know if it can be found in Canada?
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post #104 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 08:11 PM
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These are from the making of "Up" blu-ray. 3 shots with varying lighting (1st is no lights on, 2nd is lighting dimmed, 3rd is with the upper corner lighting on full blast.

I also inlcluded a nice shot of a mountain range.

By the way, I did some googling for a 1920x1080 image of a white grid on a black background. If anyone can send me a jpg or link where I could find one I'd appreciate it.

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post #105 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

These are from the making of "Up" blu-ray. 3 shots with varying lighting (1st is no lights on, 2nd is lighting dimmed, 3rd is with the upper corner lighting on full blast.

I also inlcluded a nice shot of a mountain range.

By the way, I did some googling for a 1920x1080 image of a white grid on a black background. If anyone can send me a jpg or link where I could find one I'd appreciate it.

Kev

How close are these pics to what you saw when you took them? They look great.
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post #106 of 1266 Old 02-16-2010, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I think this is a rather silly conclusion. Again the variations between units make it impossible to judge on a model basis.

Don't disagree, but at least I don't see rainbows around his text
We stated several times "it appears" and "its only an image", so now I have added "don't take this conclusion too seriously, because it might mean next to nothing".

It is however nice to know that at least the first person posting images of the LG did not get +3 pixel off convergence or major chromatic abberation. The RS20's are pretty darned soft when it comes to TEXT, so much so that you can usually see it in images.


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post #107 of 1266 Old 02-17-2010, 04:41 AM
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SauceXX,

The pics are pretty much spot on with reality. What I have noticed as I've taken these various pics to post, is that the actual images accurately represent what I am seeing first hand...I will say that the images of TEXT look slightly worse in the photos than they look in person...This may have something to do with the camera. It's not a huge difference, but there is an ever so slight "ringing" around the letters that seems to be accentuated in the text photos. (maybe the camera has a tough time with the bright text on the dark background)

I would concede that the text in the pics that Charles just posted is indeed a bit sharper than what I am seeing on my CF181D, but we're talking some serious in-your-face close-ups here. When standing 4-5 feet from the screen, with 20/20 vision, it looks sharp as a knife.

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post #108 of 1266 Old 02-17-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

SauceXX,

The pics are pretty much spot on with reality. What I have noticed as I've taken these various pics to post, is that the actual images accurately represent what I am seeing first hand...I will say that the images of TEXT look slightly worse in the photos than they look in person...This may have something to do with the camera. It's not a huge difference, but there is an ever so slight "ringing" around the letters that seems to be accentuated in the text photos. (maybe the camera has a tough time with the bright text on the dark background)

I would concede that the text in the pics that Charles just posted is indeed a bit sharper than what I am seeing on my CF181D, but we're talking some serious in-your-face close-ups here. When standing 4-5 feet from the screen, with 20/20 vision, it looks sharp as a knife.

Kev


You mention a "slight ringing" visible around the text... have you tried dropping the "sharpness" setting by one or two units to see if you see a change in this ringing?

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post #109 of 1266 Old 02-17-2010, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

By the way, I did some googling for a 1920x1080 image of a white grid on a black background. If anyone can send me a jpg or link where I could find one I'd appreciate it.
Kev

If can get the calibration disk from here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post12373254 and create your own disk. You will have a really excellent test & calibration disk that ALSO has a great set of white/black grids and patterns for testing convergence and resolution.

This also contains everything you need on a calibration disk for HD projector setup (Brightness, Contrast, Color, Clipping etc).
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post #110 of 1266 Old 02-17-2010, 05:44 PM
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so what are pro and cons of this unit versus the HC6800 or AE4000?
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post #111 of 1266 Old 02-17-2010, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ooms View Post

so what are pro and cons of this unit versus the HC6800 or AE4000?

Possibly the black levels, but these projectors have not really ever been compared to each other and the PJC review is questionable. Another possibility is sharpness (some LCD's tend to be sharper than LCOS), but this is also not determined. The LG has cheaper lamps, so in the long run should actually cost less than the Panny (assuming you use the projector 12000+ hours).

The LG is brighter in its best modes and can handle larger screens, the LG has also been said to not lose the PQ as much when going brighter (it maintains a better contrast balance). These are not verified points by comparisons, just relative points from reading.


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post #112 of 1266 Old 02-17-2010, 08:44 PM
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I didn't do too much research on the 6800, but for me I was originally set on the Panny 4000, After being happy with my Panny 700 for 5 years, and closely following its evolution to the 900, 1000, 2000, 3000 & 4000...it seemed like the 4000 was a no-brainer...but I kept seeing reviews calling out its brightness...or lack thereof. I can say one thing that bothered me about my 700 was the brightness after the bulb's initial oomph wore off. It just lacked "pop".

So this time I set out on attaining that "pop", without sacrificing picture quality. When I saw the LG review on ProjCentral I was quite intrigued. Bright...3-dimensional...and on normal brightness scenes, had better blacks & whites than even the vaunted Epson 8500UB!?! I was pretty much sold. After all, even in a very dark scene (one of the LG's weaknesses), it would surely outperform what I had been used to from my 5-year old Panny.

Truthfully, I wanted to save $1000 and get into a Mits 3800...but the lack of a decent zoom and shift killed that one.

I would say that the PROS for the Panny 4000 are sheer bells & whistles (of which most I wouldn't use) and a more refined frame interpolation (120 Hz). CONS for the Panny are brightness (from what I've read...don't let the stated 1600 lumens fool you), lack of sharpness, ex$pen$ive lamp replacement, 1yr warranty.

Buying the LG at $2500...sight unseen, was not an easy decision, but one that in hindsight, I can say that I could not be happier with so far. I get a sharp, bright image, 2 yr warranty, 120hz, <$200 lamp replacements & plenty of zoom. Cons would be some issues with 120hz, higher power consumption, and a tad less sharp than single chip DLP.

I'm glad I didn't hear the stories about LCOS being less clear/sharp than LCD, because that would have freaked me out about LCOS. Even now, after researching it a bit, I'm not really sure what the attraction of LCOS is over LCD or DLP, but at this point, it is irrelevant...and I am loving it!

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post #113 of 1266 Old 02-18-2010, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

I'm glad I didn't hear the stories about LCOS being less clear/sharp than LCD, because that would have freaked me out about LCOS. Even now, after researching it a bit, I'm not really sure what the attraction of LCOS is over LCD or DLP, but at this point, it is irrelevant...and I am loving it!

Kev

A lot of the comparison info between LCOS, LCD, and DLP is outdated. Every year the new PJ's come out, the differences can change. Not to mention the real differences are more between the individual projectors than the technologies (although DLP should still usually be sharper than the other techs).

I think the comparisons can be summed up as follows:
DLP = Lack of mounting flexibility
DLP = In batcaves, DLP can often produce higher ANSI contrast readings than the other 2 technologies, meaning semi-bright to very bright scenes will have more POP
DLP = Only the more expensive models have IRIS's and the DLP IRIS's tend to not work as good as the other techs (so lower ON/OFF contrast making for worse black levels in space scenes or other dark scenes)
DLP = Very little to no SDE (the space between pixels is less)
DLP = Color Wheel with possible rainbow effect
DLP = Better color saturation and accuracy than most LCD's
DLP = Sharpness is more consistent across different units, and quality control is easier for MFR's to maintain with this technology in this one regard (sharpness only)

LCOS = Mounting flexibility usually similar to LCD
LCOS = Very smooth film like image
LCOS = Less SDE than LCD, possibly equal to DLP (not sure)
LCOS = More vivid colors than LCD (subjective) and possibly equal or more vivid than some DLP's as well
LCOS = Typically does not produce as sharp an image as the sharper DLP's, but the sharpest LCOS may rival the bottom DLP's and can rival LCD as well

LCOS is said to have slightly deeper and richer colors than LCD, but this is very subjective at this point.


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post #114 of 1266 Old 02-18-2010, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

Truthfully, I wanted to save $1000 and get into a Mits 3800...but the lack of a decent zoom and shift killed that one.

I currently have a Mits hc3800 which is going back. It is a good projector, but the Rainbow Effect killed it for me I think, and it is annoying not being able to buy the High Power screen unless I floor mount this thing.

My major 2 issues with the hc3800 are:

1) Has too much rainbow effect for me (some people may not notice, but I never saw RBE much on DLP TV's, but on this PJ I see it a bit too much)

2) Cannot use a high-power screen with it, and it seems that even in bat caves the HP screens are still the best-bang-for-buck screens producing an image with no texture (this is pretty important to get that smooth film look)

Other than that, there is something to be said for its sharpness, but sharpness is somewhat of a dimenshing return once you get past a certain point. It's more important if you browse the internet on your projector or play games with a lot of textual reading, but it is not so important for movies and HDTV as long as the sharpness is at least ok.


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post #115 of 1266 Old 02-18-2010, 08:55 AM
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Art has his first-look up for those interested.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...jector-review/
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post #116 of 1266 Old 02-18-2010, 08:58 PM
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@ Kevro:

Have you noticed any of the blinking or weird issues that Art stated in his first-look review?

On another note:
So far Art describes about what we had expected, but more interesting will be his final review such as a comparison of sharpness, black levels, color vividness, etc...


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post #117 of 1266 Old 02-19-2010, 06:21 AM
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coderguy,

I have not noticed any of the blinking that Art described in his First Look of the CF181D. That would include PS3 gaming, blu-ray moviesm standard DVD's & Dish Network HD.

The only "weirdness" I have experieinced was with Tru-Motion at times, and a couple scenes with fast moving motion in the background...(that scene I mentioined from College Road Trip when they're on the bus).

Art says he's in contact with the manufacturer about a potential problem or something...I can't wait for his full review to see what that is all about, and if LG actually does something about it if it is indeed verified, and hopefully offers a firmware update or something for those of us who already have the unit.
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post #118 of 1266 Old 02-19-2010, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevro_86 View Post

coderguy,

Art says he's in contact with the manufacturer about a potential problem or something

Since you don't have the problem, wouldn't worry about it too much unless you start seeing it rather soon.


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post #119 of 1266 Old 02-21-2010, 07:59 AM
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My LG CF181D will be here Tuesday (2-23-2010).

Presently I have a Panasonic AX200U (720p). As much as I love Panasonic products, this unit has caused me to NOT get the AE4000. I struggled with bulb flicker since day one (intermittently). I also went through the burnt blue polarizer issue that causes a yellow spot on the middle of the screen. I figured out how to replace the polarizer only to watch the yellow spot slowly reappear over time. I'm done with Panasonic projectors.

OK, back on topic. I'll post some opinions about the LG after it comes in. I hope, hope, hope, it lives up to our expectations. I just want a bright, crisp, stable picture that's consistent over a couple year period, is that asking to much?

I'll keep you posted.

Pssst, I'm excited
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post #120 of 1266 Old 02-21-2010, 01:22 PM
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I can confirm I have never seen any blinking or something similar over the last 7 months on my LG 181
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Reply Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP

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