New Casio projectors: LED/Laser, 720p, compact - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 876 Old 01-28-2010, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by cultureulterior View Post

I just was at my country's launch of the Casio Green Slim laser projector, and I'm not particularly impressed. For one, it has a 2-color wheel, so you get rainbow effects. For another, the green color alignment was off on both demo models by several pixels.

Why would it have a color wheel? Is that how they do the green, a phosphor, clear color wheel so they pulse the blue laser for both colors and it is either blue (clear) or green (phosphor)? Then I could see that there could be a simlar speed as current lamp-based DLPs.

I had initially thought 2 blue lasers, one that was used directly and one that excites the phosphors. With that architecture, I would think you could take advantage of the ability to pulse much more quickly than a color wheel (but obviously at a cost).
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post #92 of 876 Old 01-28-2010, 05:33 PM
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Agreed.

the whole point of having discrete RGB light sources with fast on/off characteristics is to get rid of the color-wheel entirely. The only purpose of a color wheel in conventional single-chip designs is to take the white light from the white light bulb and split it up into RGB time-slots so that the DMD chip can alternate R, G, B in sequence since it's being fed a signal that's RGB.

LED projectors that have RGB light sources just "pulse" the light in sequence to simulate the sequence of a color wheel, but without the loss from wasted spoke time.

The only LED PJs that still use color wheels are the crappy ones that use * white * LEDs that then need to be divided back into RGB components.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #93 of 876 Old 01-28-2010, 07:14 PM
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When will affordable 1080p LED projectors be for sale? Let's say $1500 or less. Thanks.
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post #94 of 876 Old 01-28-2010, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

When will affordable 1080p LED projectors be for sale? Let's say $1500 or less. Thanks.


Not in for another 3-5 years would be my guess.
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post #95 of 876 Old 01-28-2010, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by convexion View Post

Not in for another 3-5 years would be my guess.

WOW. I'm hoping sooner than that.
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post #96 of 876 Old 01-29-2010, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by cultureulterior View Post

For another, the green color alignment was off on both demo models by several pixels.

what color alignment?this is supposed to be a one chip dlp machine.
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post #97 of 876 Old 01-29-2010, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimakros View Post

what color alignment?this is supposed to be a one chip dlp machine.

The color alignment on the screen can still be off because of chromatic aberration from lens effects. Even on one chip machines I think seeing all 3 primaries perfectly aligned across the whole screen is rare.

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post #98 of 876 Old 01-30-2010, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkanders View Post

Why would it have a color wheel? Is that how they do the green, a phosphor, clear color wheel so they pulse the blue laser for both colors and it is either blue (clear) or green (phosphor)? Then I could see that there could be a simlar speed as current lamp-based DLPs.

Yup, that's how they do it.
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post #99 of 876 Old 01-31-2010, 05:29 PM
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Does anyone have got Casio's new projector on hand ?
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post #100 of 876 Old 01-31-2010, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by convexion View Post

Not in for another 3-5 years would be my guess.

I would lean closer to the 3 year mark. I think people will start holding out for the LEDs and the market will start hurting.
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post #101 of 876 Old 01-31-2010, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

I would lean closer to the 3 year mark. I think people will start holding out for the LEDs and the market will start hurting.

Why would it be so long. Casio aready has a 1280 X 800 LED projector. I forget the model #. Are you saying a 1080p LED model will be out sooner, but more than $1500?
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post #102 of 876 Old 01-31-2010, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Why would it be so long. Casio aready has a 1280 X 800 LED projector. I forget the model #. Are you saying a 1080p LED model will be out sooner, but more than $1500?



I just think that once the word gets out how close to market the LED/Laser projos are (in all flavors) lamp based projos are just going to sit on the shelf.

Just me guessing... maybe even hoping.
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post #103 of 876 Old 01-31-2010, 10:39 PM
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The only way to avoid current lamp based PJs sitting on the shelf is to make the new LED ones more expensive until all lamp based PJs have almost been cleared.
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post #104 of 876 Old 02-01-2010, 07:04 AM
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i'm not crazy at all with this colorwheel concept but it shows that laser Ht pj are very near.I think it will b much sooner than people think,especially if the market gets a flood of data laser pj's, people will get used to them and lamps will suddenly look a thing of the past.Personally there is now way i'll be buying a lamp projector ever again.
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post #105 of 876 Old 02-01-2010, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Sure, I have too. But don't you want a 1920 x 1080 machine with this technology that produces a truley home-theater quality image?


Personally, I'd take an adequate 720p HT image without bulb technology right now! My Mits HC3000 looks great with Bluray, but I'm sick of bulb technology. Time for a reboot- and quick.

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post #106 of 876 Old 02-02-2010, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mobius View Post

Personally, I'd take an adequate 720p HT image without bulb technology right now! My Mits HC3000 looks great with Bluray, but I'm sick of bulb technology. Time for a reboot- and quick.

Agreed. I really want to see a 720P LED projector very soon (hopefully with lens shift too ) because I don't know how long the bulb will last in my HD70. For me, I use my projector for 80% gaming (PS3) and 20% movies/tv shows/random videos. Since almost all of my PS3 games are 720P I don't want to waste my money on 1080P. Plus I have bad eyesight .

If Casio makes a HT version in 720p I'd probably buy it if it was at least close to the image my HD70 gives.
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post #107 of 876 Old 02-03-2010, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedmodder View Post

Agreed. I really want to see a 720P LED projector very soon (hopefully with lens shift too ) because I don't know how long the bulb will last in my HD70. For me, I use my projector for 80% gaming (PS3) and 20% movies/tv shows/random videos. Since almost all of my PS3 games are 720P I don't want to waste my money on 1080P. Plus I have bad eyesight .

If Casio makes a HT version in 720p I'd probably buy it if it was at least close to the image my HD70 gives.

Casio has the one that's 1280 X 800. I forget the model #.
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post #108 of 876 Old 02-03-2010, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim McC View Post

Casio has the one that's 1280 X 800. I forget the model #.

Isn't it the 240? My only concern is that it's a data pj. Although I don't care about IQ in my games that much I'd rather have an HT projector and avoid business projectors. Preferably something with a bit more contrast. Of course I'm just assuming here about how it will turn out based on the fact that it is a business pj. Until we can get a good review on these units I'm not holding my breath. I'm more excited about what these projectors will usher in rather than the projectors themselves.

Also lens shift, my HD70 doesn't have it and I still prefer it 10000* over a normal TV but my next pj has to have vertical shift.
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post #109 of 876 Old 02-03-2010, 07:59 PM
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I'm dreaming of the day when I can buy a 1080p LED projector for $1000.
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post #110 of 876 Old 02-03-2010, 08:42 PM
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I'm not buying a new projo until it is 1080p, uses some form of lampless technology, and is at least equivalent to 1000lumen lamp based projo.

I've already seen that the 200ish lumen LED projos are about as bright as an aged 1200 lumen lamp-jo with my own eyes.

I would think that once the LEDs hit the 600lumen mark someone needs to do a direct comparison with lamp-jos because those might be as bright as 2000lumens lamps. I am wondering if this disparage between the lumen outputs and actual brightness of LED is linear or will it start to act more like lamp outputs as the apparent lumens go up?
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post #111 of 876 Old 02-04-2010, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vsv View Post

RED & GREEN is lasers, BLUE - LED ?

It uses a Red LED and a blue laser. Green comes from a phosphor wheel, part of which is clear to transmit the blue laser light and part is covered with a green phosphor to convert the blue to green.

link: http://displaydaily.com/2010/01/07/f...-mercury-lamp/
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post #112 of 876 Old 02-04-2010, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by mlang46 View Post

High power Red lasers are harder to make and have been the hang up for years.

And / or high powered Red leds are easier to make.
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post #113 of 876 Old 02-06-2010, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spookymulder View Post

Can you share video you shot ? (youtube or so)

I tried to, but it looks like I don't have the right SD card adapter for an 8GB card right now. I'll have to get one of those and then I could post the video of the Casio on photobucket.com, much like this high speed video of a Planar DLP that I believe had an up to 6x colorwheel and a JVC LCOS side-by-side:

http://s390.photobucket.com/albums/o...1.flv&newest=1

The Casio video doesn't look that special. Pretty much the picture on the screen with one primary color at a time (other than transitions where the camera picked up one primary color for part of the image and another for another part of the image), so you guys aren't missing much if you just imagine what the video above did with a 6x wheel and imagine something similar with a slower effective wheel spead.

I did take a look at the 1000 fps video I shot closer and did some more calculations. With a quick look while at CES and some calculations in my head I thought the equivalent colorwheel speed was about 3x. I based that on 2 frames per primary color, so 2 msecs per primary color. But I looked closer this time and it was between 8 and 9 frames total for all 3 primary colors, with an average of more like 2.8 msecs per primary color. It was around 8.5 msec to do all 3 primary colors. At 60Hz each frame is about 16.7 msec. So, 8.5 msec would be pretty much the equivalent of a 2x wheel (every frame getting all 3 primaries twice before moving to the next frame), as long as I did my math right.

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post #114 of 876 Old 02-06-2010, 11:42 AM
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Here are some photos of Casio projectors from the ISE 2010 in Amsterdam

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...DSC0102051.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...DSC0105054.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...DSC0107055.jpg

and the slide showing the optical path.



Thanks go to javierg for these photos (for the whole report from ISE 2010 in Amsterdam go to http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1224478 - warning bandwidth intensive)
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post #115 of 876 Old 02-07-2010, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gkanders View Post

Why would it have a color wheel? Is that how they do the green, a phosphor, clear color wheel so they pulse the blue laser for both colors and it is either blue (clear) or green (phosphor)? Then I could see that there could be a simlar speed as current lamp-based DLPs.

I had initially thought 2 blue lasers, one that was used directly and one that excites the phosphors. With that architecture, I would think you could take advantage of the ability to pulse much more quickly than a color wheel (but obviously at a cost).

thats exactly what they should do.This Casio light engine seems to be made to just annoy us.A color wheel?
What cost?how much can it cost to put two blue lasers instead of one?
They would save the entire color wheel mechanism.
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post #116 of 876 Old 02-07-2010, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepster returns View Post

It uses a Red LED and a blue laser. Green comes from a phosphor wheel, part of which is clear to transmit the blue laser light and part is covered with a green phosphor to convert the blue to green.

link: http://displaydaily.com/2010/01/07/f...-mercury-lamp/

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, i guess i wasn't entirely wrong in advising caution (post # 66 on this thread) concerning this "mating of technologies" which now turns out to be even weirder than i imagined : LED + Laser + color wheel ? WTF, Who would have thought ?
It is understandable that Casio wanted cost savings while increasing the projector's lumen output, both commendable endeavors, but not at the price of having to include a color wheel into the mix.
If i remember correctly, TI published a paper years ago in which the company estimated the MTBF of color wheels used in DLP engines at approximately 25.000 hours of use, so Casio's estimate of 20.000 hours lifespan for this illumination source would appear to be mostly due to the color wheel being used.
However, at what cost : more control parts, ancilliary equipment, generated heat, noise, etc, etc...
Just my two cents worth....
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Marcos
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post #117 of 876 Old 02-07-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, i guess i wasn't entirely wrong in advising caution (post # 66 on this thread) concerning this "mating of technologies" which now turns out to be even weirder than i imagined : LED + Laser + color wheel ? WTF, Who would have thought ?
It is understandable that Casio wanted cost savings while increasing the projector's lumen output, both commendable endeavors, but not at the price of having to include a color wheel into the mix.
If i remember correctly, TI published a paper years ago in which the company estimated the MTBF of color wheels used in DLP engines at approximately 25.000 hours of use, so Casio's estimate of 20.000 hours lifespan for this illumination source would appear to be mostly due to the color wheel being used.
However, at what cost : more control parts, ancilliary equipment, generated heat, noise, etc, etc...
Just my two cents worth....
--------------------------------------------------------------
Marcos

I quite agree. And anyone who assumes the LED to be much more reliable may be disappointed. The ratings are way inflated for these things. Now maybe they'll use better quality LEDs for these projectors, but in the generic LED lighting market they've made similar claims that have turned out to be quite bogus. We'll see, I guess. But I would not expect this to be ready for HT use anytime soon.
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post #118 of 876 Old 02-07-2010, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCaugusto View Post

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, i guess i wasn't entirely wrong in advising caution (post # 66 on this thread) concerning this "mating of technologies" which now turns out to be even weirder than i imagined : LED + Laser + color wheel ? WTF, Who would have thought ?
It is understandable that Casio wanted cost savings while increasing the projector's lumen output, both commendable endeavors, but not at the price of having to include a color wheel into the mix.
If i remember correctly, TI published a paper years ago in which the company estimated the MTBF of color wheels used in DLP engines at approximately 25.000 hours of use, so Casio's estimate of 20.000 hours lifespan for this illumination source would appear to be mostly due to the color wheel being used.
However, at what cost : more control parts, ancilliary equipment, generated heat, noise, etc, etc...
Just my two cents worth....
--------------------------------------------------------------
Marcos

20,000hrs could be for the LEDs or even the lasers. Contrary to what people think LEDs are not invincible and all manufacturers inflate their lifetime specs. Cooling and how hard it is driven play a huge part in an LEDs life. Also LEDs do dim and the amount of life you can get from an LED change depending on how much % of original light you consider to be still useful. Some manufacturers go with 70%, some with 50% and some don't even say.

Either way I think it might have been better with a second laser rather than the color wheel but this is a business projector. For that market I don't think it matters as much and they can't make it too expensive otherwise no one will buy it.
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post #119 of 876 Old 02-07-2010, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimakros View Post

thats exactly what they should do.This Casio light engine seems to be made to just annoy us.A color wheel?

It's not there to annoy us, this is the light engine for a cheap business projector.

The important thing about this projector, is that is proof of concept.
I don't see why they wouldn't add two lasers for a HT implementation.
(i doubt a great deal of people were ready to give up on their HT projectors to get one of these even before they knew this)

That to me, is the question though.
Will Casio build a HT projector? will it try to license this technology to HT manufacturers?

I hope this break trough doesn't go unused by HT projectors long enough that it lets regular LED light engines catch up to it. (which i think might still be a few years)

For this to be significant in HT projectors it needs to come out either this, or next year.
If we're gonna have to wait 3-4 years that would suck since it's in production right now. And 4 years from now we'll probably have really bright LED only projectors anyway.
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post #120 of 876 Old 02-10-2010, 09:05 PM
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I'm very interested in getting one of the these. I have a living room setup with a Optoma H77 (720p DLP). It has a very nice picture but I can only use it at night and I don't like to game on it for hours on end because of the lamp life.

I can keep direct sunlight off the screen so I'm sure something in the 2500-3000 lumen range would be bright enough for daytime use. Because of the fixed screen I don't have a good place to put a TV. This would basically be a TV replacement. I looked at the XJ-A240 foreign prices and if the pricing ratio holds we should be able to pick it up for about $1000 when it is released.
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