List of Upcoming LED based PJ - AVS Forum
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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My Optoma EP719 has been in need of a bulb for almost a year now. But I just cannot justify spending 200-300 on a new bulb instead of just upgrading to a new projector. I almost pull the trigger last xmas on a new HD20 but decided to wait a few more months knowing that this year could be the year when LED based PJ with 720p would be a reality. Looking at the CES and other places, it seems that there are a few that are coming within the next few months. [I used my projector on an avg of 4hr/day at a min so having to keep buying new bulb just doesn't seem too attractive anymore].

Since I figure some of you might be in the same boat as I am, I thought it would be good if we can get a list of the up coming LED projectors with as much information as we can found out. [i.e. Make, Model, When/Where Available, Mft Listed pricing would be handy].

Make, Model, Where, When, MFT Price, Res
  1. Casio, XJ-A series, JP, Feb 2010, 1.6-3.5k (US), XGA-WXGA [note: Casio posted $799 for the XJ-A130 on their website] -
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1214089
  2. LG, HX300, unknown, unknown, unknown, XGA
    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1214194
  3. Samsung, FM10M, US, Q2 2010, unknown, XGA
  4. Acer, K11, unknown, unknown, ~$650, 858x600 -
    http://www.acer.ch/acer/news_detail....CRC=4033842145

List of currently available 'recent' LED projectors:
Make, Model, Where, When, MFT Price, Res
Samsung, P400, US, Now, ~$500, SVGA
LG, HS201, US, Now, ~$500, SVGA
Sival Instruments, MP720B1, US, now, $500 (US), WXGA
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Old 01-14-2010, 09:11 AM
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Anyone here have any experience with the Sival projector? I was thinking about trying out the LG HS201 and wondered how this one would compare. It looks like the Sival has a better resolution, but the LG would be brighter.
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Old 01-14-2010, 01:20 PM
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Samsung F10M 1000 lumens XGA mid-year availability?

I want to like the Sival because it is 720p and lcos...but the lumens and contrast are pretty low.

With the exception of resolution, the LG is probably better overall. But, I haven't seen the Sival in person so who knows.
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sisyphus View Post

Samsung F10M 1000 lumens XGA mid-year availability?

I want to like the Sival because it is 720p and lcos...but the lumens and contrast are pretty low.

With the exception of resolution, the LG is probably better overall. But, I haven't seen the Sival in person so who knows.

That Samsung sounds pretty sweet. Wonder what it will be priced at though?
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:48 AM - Thread Starter
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yes, I've been interested in the Sival pj but are holding back because of the very low lumens. That samsung one definitely seems interesting but why is it 9.9lb??? That has got to be a misprint or something.
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Old 01-31-2010, 01:52 PM
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Looks like the EnWo HD(Europe) is the same projector as the Sival MP720B1 (US)

As always 1 Dollar becomes 1 Euro, so the sival is significantly cheaper, even for europeans.
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Old 01-31-2010, 02:19 PM
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:27 PM
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These manufactures are frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong but if they can get LED to work with an XGA chip can't they just as easily get it to work with a DC4 chip. Please tell me we don't have to wait some long iteration from XGA to 720 to DC1-DC4. Why can't someone just put a DC3 or DC4 chip with an LED light engine and make a projector for 2-3k. Surely there is money to be made. Infocus or Optoma could blow Panasonic and Epson out of the water.
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Old 01-31-2010, 06:04 PM
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They still have a lot of lamp projos to move, not to mention the huge inventory of replacment lamps. They don't want to undercut the market. They will slowly phase them out over the next few years.

Lampless willl change everything. I would like to understand why the lumen ratings seem to be so out of proportion though? Why does a 170 lumen led projo compare, maybe even edge out a 1200 lumen lamp projo in brightness?

My lamp based 51a with a 1000 hours on it is actually a little dimmer than my led p410.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Schneider View Post

This one count?
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/videopr...dlp_projector/

Pricey though.

I didn't want to include that cuz it's definitely way out of the $3k range. But there are definitely some high end LED base projectors out there already.
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

These manufactures are frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong but if they can get LED to work with an XGA chip can't they just as easily get it to work with a DC4 chip. Please tell me we don't have to wait some long iteration from XGA to 720 to DC1-DC4. Why can't someone just put a DC3 or DC4 chip with an LED light engine and make a projector for 2-3k. Surely there is money to be made. Infocus or Optoma could blow Panasonic and Epson out of the water.

Agreed. From a non-professional pov, it seems that there's zero reason why they couldn't throw in any resolution and it should just work out of the box at all. But I would suspect that 'killing all existing pj market' is the primary reason why this hasn't been done at all.
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Old 02-01-2010, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkchan007 View Post

Agreed. From a non-professional pov, it seems that there's zero reason why they couldn't throw in any resolution and it should just work out of the box at all. But I would suspect that 'killing all existing pj market' is the primary reason why this hasn't been done at all.

I don't think this is Completely true. Companies in this industry regularly need to introduce new products to stay competitive. Yes, they do not want to cannibalize sales of existing products too fast, so that is a consideration. But most would probably love to be the first company to bring some really great LED based projectors to the market and really shake things up for their competition. If you are not the market leader this is the type of revolution you look for to take the lead. And if you are the leader you cannot allow someone else to take the lead in a segment with this much potential.

The problem is that LED based light sources in the power range to meet most customers needs are still way too expensive to directly compete directly in that market. Some LED's are now reaching a good enough brightness to be usable, but the lower brightness and smaller screen size that goes along with that keeps them in a bit of a niche market. Since the LED lamp also allows you to eliminate the color wheel, an expensive ballast, cooling fans, and some other costs, as well as build a much smaller projector, the manufacturers are naturally pushed into this low market segment. At least for now. Adding a higher resolution chip would probably mandate some better optics and other upgrades and by the time you were done would put you close to the cost of existing entry level projectors without the brightness to fully take advantage of that new resolution by upping your screen size.

Don't worry though. LED technology is advancing quite quickly. Someone will surely be manufacturing a brighter and higher resolution LED projector very soon. And IMHO it will not mater how many lamps or conventional projectors are on the shelves, all of the manufacturers will need to follow suit to stay in the market. When LCD computer screens became cost competitive did computer companies try to resist selling them because of all the CRT's on the shelves, or even the huge manufacturing infrastructure? No, they had no choice but to embrace the new technology or be swept aside.
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:35 AM
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I don't know I just have a feeling that TI will milk this thing. I saw a youtube video of the LG HS201 and the colors look amazing on a 90 inch diagonal screen and it was brighter than a Sony standard projector in comparision. I just hope it doesn't take 2 years for someone to put a dark 1080 chip into an LED projector for less than 3k. TI now has a chance to dominate the market since LED significantly reduces the rainbow issue which was their bottleneck. It just seems to me that this is a leap in lamp technology not chip technology. Once the LED lamp is proven we shouldn't have to repeat the same chip iteration.
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:40 AM
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hORUMPH!!
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:42 AM
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hORUMPH!! Well I was hoping som LED would have a Dc chip to it soon. I will buying a projector in the next year or so but was going to hold out for the LED. Now it seems it may be even longer of a wait.
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Old 02-01-2010, 01:29 PM
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Well, 1080p and Phlatlight's pt120 LED were already paired in Samsung's affordable hl61a/67a750 rear projection sets. And that was 1.5 years ago! They would need to build a front projector chassis around it...but otherwise no real reason why this hasn't been done for under $3K. The Sim2 Mico 50 and Vivitek H9080FD use the same/similar Phlatlight chipset.

Update: Looks like the upcoming XGA Samsung F10M will use the PhlatLight PT-120 LEDs!

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/7/1/8
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:52 PM
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See, that's what I don't understand. A friend of mine bought one of those samsung rear projection LED sets (1080p) and it was only $300 more than a conventional blub set. Why in front projection does it have to be so much more expensive and take so much longer to get this technology into the mainstream. Come on Samsung and LG, let's get the ball rolling.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bsims2719 View Post

See, that's what I don't understand. A friend of mine bought one of those samsung rear projection LED sets (1080p) and it was only $300 more than a conventional blub set. Why in front projection does it have to be so much more expensive and take so much longer to get this technology into the mainstream. Come on Samsung and LG, let's get the ball rolling.

I think front projectors need to be much brighter. I also think that the FP market is smaller than the market for RPTVs was, TVs just seem to sell easier. Those could be what are keeping the price up.

Manufacturers seem to be more interested in pushing small projectors over getting better resolutions sadly. Plus all this 3D stuff is probably more interesting to the manufacturers that LEDs So that's where they're putting their R&D.

All just guesses of course but I feel like those things are at least part of the problem.
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Old 02-05-2010, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tkchan007 View Post

yes, I've been interested in the Sival pj but are holding back because of the very low lumens. That samsung one definitely seems interesting but why is it 9.9lb??? That has got to be a misprint or something.

I have done a quick search and did not see it.
Could you tell me what the lumens are for the Sival projector ?
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by The big picture View Post

I have done a quick search and did not see it.
Could you tell me what the lumens are for the Sival projector ?

I do believe the vendor spec is ~40lumens.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:09 AM
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So, you can buy a 7000 lumen raw LED array for like $200 on Ebay.

What's the hold up on high output projectors?

I wonder why someone like oh say VISIO doesn't do this and undercut the heck out of every other punny low lumen projector? LOL

buytme
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Old 02-13-2010, 12:26 PM
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By the time you try to focus that 7000 L on a tiny area, color filter it, and send it through the optics, you're left with a small fraction of the light.

You can be sure there are many mfgr's working on LED pj's, but it just takes time.

Noah
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Old 02-13-2010, 12:46 PM
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So the bulb on a 1700 lumen projector currently is putting out 5000+ lumens before it gets to the optics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

By the time you try to focus that 7000 L on a tiny area, color filter it, and send it through the optics, you're left with a small fraction of the light.

You can be sure there are many mfgr's working on LED pj's, but it just takes time.


buytme
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Old 02-13-2010, 04:07 PM
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They have already got a projector bright enough for 90/100 inches it is just not sharp enough. The Samsung p410 is way brighter than you'd expect for 170 lumens.

I guess it would lose some brightness after they installed all the filters and iris to increase the contrast but still the brightness is nearly there.
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Old 02-13-2010, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by David_B View Post

So the bulb on a 1700 lumen projector currently is putting out 5000+ lumens before it gets to the optics?

Real projectors probably have better efficiency than that, but mostly because of the expensive and difficult to build very short arc length lamps they use. The amount useful light that a particular lamp can provide on the screen is dependent on the etandu of the optical system. This is a measure of optical efficiency that has to do with how well they work with non ideal, or extended light sources. If you had a point light source, or at least one that looked like a point source to the rest of the optical system, you would not need to worry about this. But most real light sources are far from ideal.

If you have some small components in the optical system then you also need a small specialized light source in order to get good efficiency. Digital projectors are made possible through the use of micro display devices. Emphasis on the word micro. Anything other than a very specially designed lamp would waste most of it's light if used with these micro devices. If you were to try to use an extended light source such as an LED array you would get horrible efficiency. Now a single small LED of similar power is another story. Once we have small, powerful, and inexpensive LED light sources, the projector market will see some major changes.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:41 PM
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"So the bulb on a 1700 lumen projector currently is putting out 5000+ lumens before it gets to the optics?"

Probably closer to 10k L; 17% throughput efficiency would be pretty good.

Noah
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Old 02-14-2010, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B View Post

So, you can buy a 7000 lumen raw LED array for like $200 on Ebay.

What's the hold up on high output projectors?

I wonder why someone like oh say VISIO doesn't do this and undercut the heck out of every other punny low lumen projector? LOL

Most LEDs on eBay probably don't go through QC. They're made by Chinese manufacturers who are only interested in the lowest cost possible. Also chances are those 7000lm were probably an enthusiastic number from an overdriven peltier-cooled sample. Not to mention all LEDs that are rated at 100000hours are a joke and will probably fail pretty quickly.

OEMs will only use branded LEDs in their designs because it will probably be a PITA to replace the LEDs and they don't want them failing within the warranty period. Crees, Lumileds, Nichias and Luminus Devices LEDs are the manufacturers to look at. Also, although pj manufacturers are probably looking for ways to cut corners to save dollars the whole reason we want LEDs is for longer light source life. If the LED light fails as quick as a normal bulb then you can bet that we will do our best to give that projector/manufacturer a bad rep .
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:33 PM
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In the complete absence of any other news of led pro jos those Casio led/lasers are looking pretty good.

They are claiming 3000 lumens on a WXGA (1280x720p) projector release in the next few months so they say.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

In the complete absence of any other news of led pro jos those Casio led/lasers are looking pretty good.

They are claiming 3000 lumens on a WXGA (1280x720p) projector release in the next few months so they say.

We shall see. I'm interested in seeing what they come out with as far as contrast and black levels. A 1080p LED for home theater would be great.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by MetalAlien View Post

In the complete absence of any other news of led pro jos those Casio led/lasers are looking pretty good.

They are claiming 3000 lumens on a WXGA (1280x720p) projector release in the next few months so they say.

Definitely we need HD projectors, because we have more and more HD contents. Just like HDTV to CRT, the low resolution projectors (<800x600) will be out.
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