Can someone summarize the state of the art in this category? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 03-23-2010, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm seeing a lot of different technologies in projectors. Are LED the next big thing? Or will laser take hold?
Only interested in 1080p.


I cannot afford a projector that uses bulbs so am looking to LED or laser to solve the bulb problem. I'm not in a hurry to buy. I like the LED tech. due to its long life, low power and low heat. All which add up to lowering TCO and, due to low heat, long life for associated parts.

I saw mention of a Casio (no 1080) and LG, Samsun and Acer (none are 1080)

I saw that Sony has announced laser projectors for 2nd half 2010 but laser seems to me an untested tech. in this space and I don't know about heat issues or power consumption.

What is the state? How many months/years out are 1080p LED projectors?

Will it be possible to replace current bulbs with an LED light source?
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post #2 of 30 Old 03-23-2010, 02:47 PM
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Display technologies are slugging it out for years to come. Some lamps are cheaper than others. I suppose your wanting to use the projector for all your viewing?

LED and Laser both have a lot to prove before any sort of timeline for them to even be competitive with other techs can be formulated.

3D is the next big thing right now. Mainstream manufacturers are concentrating much more on that right now than new display technologies. A flood compared to a trickle?
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post #3 of 30 Old 03-23-2010, 07:20 PM
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LED 1080P projectors are out there. Sim2 Mico 50, Projection Design FL32/Kroma, and the various Delta (Engine) based units, by DPI, Runco, VDC, Vivitek and probably some others. These were introduced last year.
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post #4 of 30 Old 03-23-2010, 08:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk View Post

LED 1080P projectors are out there. Sim2 Mico 50, Projection Design FL32/Kroma, and the various Delta (Engine) based units, by DPI, Runco, VDC, Vivitek and probably some others. These were introduced last year.

The ones I saw were all over $3000. Runco I recall specifically being very expensive and definitely not in this category.
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post #5 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 01:26 AM
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If by 'state of the art' you mean the best performers in the under $3K segment then I would say there are two for different reasons...

1. Epson 8500 for image quality
2. Panasonic AE4000 for feature set

The AE4000 has projectors that are equal or better regarding image quality in its price range but there are no projectors with a more impressive feature set under $3K. So its features are 'state of the art' .

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post #6 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 08:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Display technologies are slugging it out for years to come. Some lamps are cheaper than others. I suppose your wanting to use the projector for all your viewing?

Slugging it out is a good way to put it. It's also moving slow like a slug.
Yes, projector will be the only device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

LED and Laser both have a lot to prove before any sort of timeline for them to even be competitive with other techs can be formulated.

donaldk mentioned some other projectors (all are out of this category) and I looked at one Sim2 and the reviews for the MICO were very good and that unit uses LED so it seems to be proven tech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

3D is the next big thing right now. Mainstream manufacturers are concentrating much more on that right now than new display technologies. A flood compared to a trickle?

I have zero interest in 3D so no plans for anything like that.
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post #7 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 08:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

If by 'state of the art' you mean the best performers in the under $3K segment

Almost but using newer tech. (i.e. no bulbs) LED or laser or some hybrid (like Casio) in this category (this category < $3000)
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post #8 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by star_man View Post

I cannot afford a projector that uses bulbs so am looking to LED or laser to solve the bulb problem. I'm not in a hurry to buy. I like the LED tech. due to its long life, low power and low heat. All which add up to lowering TCO and, due to low heat, long life for associated parts.

You'll be waiting a long time if you want LED/Laser in a 1080p PJ for under 3K.

If you can't afford a projector that uses bulbs, maybe this is the wrong hobby for you?

DaGamePimp: I had an 8500UB, and sent it back. My AE4000 blows away the image quality - at the close distance I watch from - so it I disagree on your assessment between the two.

Art
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post #9 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adpayne View Post

You'll be waiting a long time if you want LED/Laser in a 1080p PJ for under 3K.

Ballpark, how long? How much tech. difference is there in a 720p pj vs. 1080p?
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post #10 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 09:00 AM
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A good place to start; TJN reviewed the Mits 6800, Sony HW15, and Epson 9500 in Home Theater Mag.

http://www.hometheatermag.com/#
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post #11 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

the Mits 6800, Sony HW15, and Epson 9500 in Home Theater Mag.

Those all look nice but use bulbs. Was more interested in LED, laser or LED-laser hybrid tech. i.e. bulbless
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post #12 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 09:53 AM
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Lamps are the current affordable technology, if you can not afford $400 every 2-3000 hours how will you afford High end Technology like lasers and LED.. My suggestion is buy a plasma and forget about front projection. This thread is like saying I want a car with 300 HP but they get bad gas mileage and I can not afford to buy gas.

Now if you would like to tell us how and where you will use the projector and why 2-3000 hour lamp life is such a problem then maybe this thread would make more sense.

Doug

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post #13 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 09:54 AM
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if you wait, you don't get to enjoy it. like computers, you buy what you can afford and what you need in the near term. future proofing is expensive and you don't fully appreciate it because by the time you need it, the cost of new is way less (and better).

my best bang for buck while waiting was a used 720p projector...

The cost of the set up was a much bigger part of the expense than just the projector (BTW came with two bulbs - one new and one with 1/2 life left).

installation costs, screen costs, mount or shelf cost, long HDMI cable cost, electric wiring expense....all adds up....

I fully expect to run out the existing bulb in a year or two and then sell the projector with the "new" bulb...by then, the current state of the art (Epson 8500 or Panny 4000 will be even cheaper) will be easily eclipsed in quality. In two years, the magical LED lit may be more reasonably priced.

the setup (screen/cabling, electronics) is all in place. it'll be a simple swap and calibrate. BUT the best part is, I can live with 720p right now and enjoy large screen projection for a fraction of the cost of a new 1080p
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post #14 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

...I want a car with 300 HP but they get bad gas mileage and I can not afford to buy gas.

Analogies are a cop-out, shows an inability to make an on-topic point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

why 2-3000 hour lamp life is such a problem then maybe this thread would make more sense.

Whether the thread makes sense to you or not is irrelevant. It's a discussion about state of the art in this category limited by bulbless tech. Just trying to sort it out. I can guarantee you that many people are confused by the vast amount of choices in display tech.
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post #15 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poopiehead View Post

if you wait, you don't get to enjoy it.

Waiting's not a problem. Lot's of other things to do and I don't watch that much anyway. I'm a cheapskate, late adopter and can wait for LED to come into my $$ range. Mostly this is a discussion.
There's really nothing in the balance. Your advice is sound though.
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post #16 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 10:40 AM
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Let's say the LED projector comes in at $5000. Now you can buy a fairly decent 1080p projector for $2000. That leaves you with $3000 of saving which you can put towards bulbs. That equates to about 10 bulbs which equals about 30,000 hours of viewing. I believe LEDs usually have a lifespan around 40,000 hours (for TVs). Now this equation is very speculative of the type of projector you are looking for, but if you go through a couple bulbs, the LED projectors should be cheaper and probably more reliable. Just my 2 cents though.
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post #17 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by star_man View Post

Those all look nice but use bulbs. Was more interested in LED, laser or LED-laser hybrid tech. i.e. bulbless

Sorry, did not understand that this is a fantasy thread.

There are no non-bulb HT projectors in the < $3K category. There are currently 3 LED DLP HT projectors in the $15K to $20K range. There is a Runco ($15K) thread in the > $3K section of the forum

Sony just announced that they are moving their laser modules from R&D to a product development sub. If/When those modules makes it into production and from there into projectors is unknown at this point.

It looks like you are looking for speculation on products which don't exist from people who would have no real information on if/when said products might exist.
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post #18 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by star_man View Post

Analogies are a cop-out, shows an inability to make an on-topic point.


Whether the thread makes sense to you or not is irrelevant. It's a discussion about state of the art in this category limited by bulbless tech. Just trying to sort it out. I can guarantee you that many people are confused by the vast amount of choices in display tech.

From another of your responses.
Waiting's not a problem. Lot's of other things to do and I don't watch that much anyway. I'm a cheapskate, late adopter and can wait for LED to come into my $$ range. Mostly this is a discussion.
There's really nothing in the balance. Your advice is sound though.

So you are asking about future technologies and want to discuss such but you don't want to pay for the current affordable technologies because you are a cheapskate and don't watch much anyway.. What is the point? I want a viper but I can not afford the insurance or gas.. wow those vipers are fast.. wouldn't it be great to have one.. I can't wait till they are $20,000.. oh wait that is a cop out.. making an on topic point is not really possible.. the topic is pointless.

In summary, LED and Laser technology are out of the price range of this Forum, hit the ultra high end forum and chat with those guys.. make sure you tell them you don't want to by lamps because you are to cheap.. done with the feeding.. I should know better.

Doug

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post #19 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adpayne View Post

DaGamePimp: I had an 8500UB, and sent it back. My AE4000 blows away the image quality - at the close distance I watch from - so it I disagree on your assessment between the two.

Art

I can see what you are saying because of the Panny smoothscreen but again that is a feature of the unit, some like it and some do not. However you are the first person that I have ever heard of to claim the AE4000 "blows away" the Epson 8500 . I have seen both units and can say the 8500 bests the AE4000 on over-all image quality, and on this point I think the majority agree. The AE4000 is no slouch regarding image quality and it's the king when it comes to features but there are a few units out there under $3K that best its image quality IMHO. However if you enjoy the AE4000 more than the 8500 then that is really all that matters, to each his own .

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post #20 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

However you are the first person that I have ever heard of to claim the AE4000 "blows away" the Epson 8500 . I have seen both units and can say the 8500 bests the AE4000 on over-all image quality, and on this point I think the majority agree.

That's why I qualified my statement: "from the close distance I watch from". I have a 9' screen, and view from 11' away. I could see the pixels on the Epson, and it had less shadow detail than the AE2000 I had at the time. The AE4000 is super sharp and detailed from 11', and has a ton of depth in dark scenes. It works for me, but understand we all all have preferences, and it's great that there are so many choices.

To the OP, why come to this forum to speculate on tech that is new and expensive at this point? Bleeding-edge and bargain hunting do not go hand in hand.

Art
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post #21 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 12:50 PM
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3000 hr bulb/35hrs. per week of viewing (Nielson stated average of U.S. TV consumption) = 1.64 years between bulb changes.

5000 hr bulb/35hrs. per week of viewing = 2.74 years between bulb changes.

Wait, you don't watch that much TV, halve the number of viewing hours and double that to 3.28 years and 5.48 years between bulb changes. Say $300 cost for a new bulb and your talking $.10/hr. or $.06/hr. respectively no matter how long it takes you to burn through those hours. Put a coin jar next to the projector and drop a dime in for every hour you watch.

How cheap are you really?

"Experience is the one thing you can't get for nothing." - Oscar Wilde
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post #22 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 12:57 PM
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Put a dollar in the jar and when the bulb goes, you have yourself money for another projector!
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post #23 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 01:22 PM
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starman,
you might want to read up on bulb warranties. maybe start here. the standard warranty is two replacement bulbs within 3 years for a reasonable cost.

You also really need to figure in deprecation in your total cost. in three years, I think you would be lucky to get 33% of the cost of a new projector today. This is way more significant than bulb cost on a $3K projector. if you spend another $1k for LED, count on that $1K being worth at least $600 less in 3 years (or about the cost of two bulbs).

if you want something led now, check out the BenQ Joybee1. also the microvision showwx is a pico laser projector. neither are home theater projectors.
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post #24 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adpayne View Post

It works for me, but understand we all all have preferences, and it's great that there are so many choices.

Art

Indeed, I agree 100%!

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post #25 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

In summary, LED and Laser technology are out of the price range of this Forum

Well no, Casio has a LED-laser hybrid that fits into this forum's category, just not 1080p.
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post #27 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

I can see what you are saying because of the Panny smoothscreen but again that is a feature of the unit, some like it and some do not. However you are the first person that I have ever heard of to claim the AE4000 "blows away" the Epson 8500 . I have seen both units and can say the 8500 bests the AE4000 on over-all image quality, and on this point I think the majority agree. The AE4000 is no slouch regarding image quality and it's the king when it comes to features but there are a few units out there under $3K that best its image quality IMHO. However if you enjoy the AE4000 more than the 8500 then that is really all that matters, to each his own .

Jason

I own the AE4000 for two weeks now and it is my first projector, but admittedly like most of us who own a certain brand/model we have some bias. I do believe this review shows the PQ to be no better on the 8500 except for black levels, but even then the advantage is minimal since it isn't relative to the majority of viewing. Then there is also mention of the certain attributes giving the PQ advantage to the PAnny, so I think we can call it a wash.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epso...nic_ae4000.htm

I don't see anywhere where most reviews give the edge to the Epson, if anything the advantage goes to the Panny as most often it can be bought for a few hundred less than the Epson, the PQ is really more or less no better or worse and as you made mention of the feature set advantages give the Panny that edge.
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post #28 of 30 Old 03-24-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

In summary, LED and Laser technology are out of the price range of this Forum, hit the ultra high end forum and chat with those guys.. make sure you tell them you don't want to by lamps because you are to cheap.. done with the feeding.. I should know better.

Hey, don't knock our f=86.
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post #29 of 30 Old 03-28-2010, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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don't knock our f=86

Took me a minute to figure out what you meant.
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post #30 of 30 Old 03-28-2010, 03:54 PM
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